Ep 101: Jealousy, Biological Sex Differences, and Mate Selection with Prof David Buss
Art by @reesabobeesa
This week Effy and Jacqueline are curious about the purpose of jealousy:
What is jealousy? How do you characterize it?
What are the evolutionary roots of jealousy? And what purpose does it serve in the emotional portfolio of the human species?
What are the distinctions between the biological sexes and jealousy, based on existing research?
We are challenging the status quo that jealousy is bad and something that non-monogamous people should not feel.
To guide us in our exploration, our guest this week is Prof David Buss
David Buss is a Professor of Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin. Buss previously taught at Harvard University and the University of Michigan. He is considered the world’s leading scientific expert on strategies of human mating and one of the founders of the field of evolutionary psychology.
His books include The Evolution of Desire: Strategies of Human Mating; Evolutionary Psychology: The New Science of the Mind; The Dangerous Passion: Why Jealousy is as Necessary as Love and Sex; The Murderer Next Door: Why the Mind is Designed to Kill; and Why Women Have Sex (with Cindy Meston).
His new book: When Men Behave Badly: The Hidden Roots of Sexual Deception, Harassment, and Assault (2021) uncovers the evolutionary roots of conflict between the sexes. Buss has more than 300 scientific publications. In 2019, he was cited as one of the 50 most influential living psychologists in the world.
To find more about Prof David Buss, go to her website or follow him on Twitter @ProfDavidBuss
To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla on Instagram.
If you have a question that you would like to explore on the show, reach out to us and we may answer your question on one of our upcoming episodes. Leave us a voicemail at 201-870-0063 or email us at listening@wearecuriousfoxes.com
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TRANSCRIPT:
Effy
Welcome to the curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo and love, sex and relationships. My name is Effie Blue.
Jacqueline
And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today we're talking about jealousy and challenging the idea that jealousy is a bad thing and something that non-monogamous people should not feel. So before we dig into this topic, I have something I need to say. I get jealous.
Jacqueline
I've done episodes on jealousy I did an episode on jealousy for NPR is life kit. I've done interviews about jealousy for alternative relationships Summit, I've written about it, I've spoken about it. And I get jealous. And I don't mean envy. Oh, I want what you have. I mean, jealousy that is mine. And you need to take a step back. Mm-hmm. I experienced it when my partner was with her partner experienced it when my partner started dating someone new consumed, my thoughts made my body feel physically ill and psychologically messed with me, because I am the person that introduced non-monogamy into my relationships. So I introduced non-monogamy, and yet I was jealous. And I'm actually going to go a step deeper, I experienced retroactive jealousy.
Effy
Tell me about that.
Jacqueline
I'm not even mad at the people who like now, or I'm mad at anyone who was with like my partner, the fact that she was with other people before, somehow that makes me mad. Now, I've always said even publicly, I feel grateful to be the beneficiary of all the experience that she gained from those other relationships. So thank you to all those folks. And with my wife, I have things like, I'll open my drawer, and there are cherry hitters, and there are garlic mincers, none of the things I bought her previous partners bought those things. So I am the beneficiary of their past relationships. And yet, I still can feel jealous of the past.
Effy
What is that feeling? Like? I'm especially interested in the retroactive stuff, like things are in the past and have gone right, these people are no longer in your lives in any way, shape, or form other than the garlic press things around the house. Like Tell me about that feeling? What does that kind of what does that kind of jealousy? Like? How does that feel?
Jacqueline
I think that it is about recognizing that there was an emotional connection. And there was resource sharing, which we talked about a lot in this episode, there was a connection. And there's a part of me, the part of me that feels insecure, feels like that could have been bigger or more than our connection. I think that's that's not what happens for me rationally. But if I dig in, I think that that's what it's about. Is our connection, as deep or as important or as significant as that was when or should that be considered a threat? Now, there is zero evidence that that is the case, right? In fact, I have constant reassurance that you know, that my partners love me, and we're, and so it's not, that's what I mean, it's not rational. And so I understand it's my own work to do, and which is why, you know, so you may be asking, then, well, Jackie, why do you talk about and write about and give tips about navigating through jealousy? Those tips that I share are well earned. I understand the anguish of it and have gone through the work of taming that beast. And so I still feel it now. I don't react to it. In the same way. That's the distinction.
Effy
Yeah, I think just you know, one of the things that we explore in this particular episode is that this the green-eyed monster that is jealous is not this like special extra special King Kong of him of a monster of emotion. It just gets a bad rap. It is another emotion. It happens to show up in In areas of our lives that is very, very significant in relationships, right? And it just needs to be dealt with like any other emotional dysregulation.
Jacqueline
Yes, yes. So we needed to admit that from the jump just it means our goal in this conversation is to challenge the idea that jealousy is bad, or that if you're non-monogamous, you should not be experiencing jealousy. And so I wanted to normalize right away. That is not the case. That is okay. Jealousy is okay.
Jacqueline
I'm excited because our guide through the treacherous waters of jealousy is Dr. David Buss. David Buss is a professor of psychology at the University of Texas in Austin. He previously taught at Harvard University and the University of Michigan and he is considered the world's leading scientific expert on strategies on human meeting, and one of the founders of the field of evolutionary psychology. He has a number of books on the topic, including the evolution of desire strategies of human mating, evolutionary psychology, the new science of the mind, the dangerous passion, why jealousy is as necessary as love and sex and the murderer next door, why the mind is designated to kill and why women have sex that he wrote with Cindy Meston. In his new book when men behave badly the hidden roots of sexual deception, harassment, and assault uncovers the evolutionary roots of conflict between the sexes. He has more than 300 scientific publications. And in 1999, he was cited as one of the 50 most influential living psychologists in the world.
Effy
Is there a better person to talk about jealousy than Professor David Buss? I think, no. Jealousy is in the top three topics I get asked and I know you get asked when we are talking about non-monogamy it's both the resistance that I hear why people don't want to do non-monogamy I could never be non-monogamous. I'm too jealous. It is the problem that they present as they're tackling non-monogamy. You know, we want to do this. It's great. But this jealousy is overwhelming. It is the thing that you know, those who are curious, like how do people get to be non-monogamous? Aren't they jealous? It is right up there in the very, very top of everyone's mind, as soon as we say relationships, monogamy, non-monogamy, the thing that pops up is jealousy. So we wanted to start from the beginning. And we got to ask Professor buss, how do you characterize jealousy? And why do we have such a complex emotions?
David
When I first started studying jealousy, I wrote a book about it called the dangerous passion, I basically sat down and read the 1000s of articles that have been written about jealousy. And when I was startled to realize is that the mainstream thinking was that jealousy is a pathology, that it's a sign of insecurity, a sign of neurosis that needs to be treated. There's an enormous couple counseling literature on where people come into therapy for how to deal with their jealousy. In the psychiatric literature, you know, it's been called pathological jealousy, the Ostello syndrome, conjugal paranoia, and a whole bunch of other names. From an evolutionary perspective, when you have an emotion that looks like it's universal, and now there's a fair amount of evidence that it is universal across cultures, from an evolutionary perspective, you have to ask the question, well, why? Why is it there? And I think jealousy evolved, the conclusion that I came to or the series of conclusions, but first is that jealousy evolved primarily in the context of long-term committed relationships. Yeah, and I should back up one second. So we have to separate jealousy from envy. Sometimes these terms are used interchangeably, and they're really fundamentally different emotions. Jealousy is an emotion that's activated when there is a threat to a valued relationship. Now, so it could be, say sibling jealousy, friendship, jealousy. But what I've studied is mostly jealousy in the context of mating relationships and sexual romantic relationships. And basically, pair bonding, as a strategy as mating strategy is extremely rare in the mammalian world, something like three to 5% of all mammals have anything remotely resembling pair bonding. And this doesn't necessarily just include one, one couple, I mean, it could be multiple pair-bonded relationships. But whenever you have a committed relationship where you're doing a substantial amount of time, energy resources, sexual resources, emotional resources, financial resources, you have to have something that is going to protect your investment so to speak. It's just like, this is a crude analogy, and I Don't need to stretch it to its limits. But you don't take out insurance when you let's say, I don't know, buy a candy bar or buy a loaf of bread. But if you make a heavy investment, you buy a house or a car, you want to you want an insurance policy for that in case something goes wrong. Hopefully, nothing does go wrong, hopefully, your house doesn't burn down and you don't get into a car crash. But sometimes it happens. So when it comes to relationships, committed parents couldn't evolve unless there was something that evolved to protect or provide insurance for that relationship in jealousy, I argue is that emotion and so very complicated emotion that we can get into the details of, but it gets activated when there is a threat to a valued relationship, in this case, a sexual or romantic relationship. And it's different from envy, where envy is an emotion that gets activated when someone else has something that you don't have that you want. So I might be envious of a worker who got a bigger pay raise than I did or envious of an extra neighbor whose house is bigger or has a fancier car or, or has a more attractive wife, or more dazzling husband, and so envious, a different emotion. It's when something someone has something that you rack and motivates people to either try to get the things that you want, but lack, or in some cases, the nastier side to tear down those who have more than you do. And humans do both of those with envy. But so that's why I want to cleanly separate that emotion of envy from the emotion of jealousy, which gets activated when there's a threat. Getting back to your original question about the evolutionary origins. I was surprised that prior to my work and the work of a couple of other evolutionary psychologists, it has gotten a universally bad rap, you know, there's just it's a negative emotion that has to be expunged from the human repertoire of emotions and treated and all that. And I think it has to be dealt with. But it has many positive aspects to it. And sometimes there are real threats to real relationships, just like there are real threats to houses and cars that you want to protect, there are real threats to relationships. And just to give a preview of those, the threats can come from the outside. So if you are with someone who's very desirable, or even modestly desirable, or even average, other people are going to desire your partner to just because you're with that person doesn't mean that, you know, people think that oh, you know, I've solved the problem, I'm with this person. No, they were when I call meet poachers, people who would like to get with the person that you're with sexually, romantically, or in other ways. So that's from the outside, there could be threats from the inside. So your partner becomes dissatisfied, emotionally dissatisfied, sexually dissatisfied, and starts may be looking around to see if there might be a better person out there for them or better people out there. And then there are even more subtle things like mate value discrepancies. So and this is in the, you know, everything. Everyone knows what I mean by this. It's a kind of cumbersome phrase, but people use informal phrases like, Oh, you're too good for him, he's not good enough for you, or she's out of my league, they use these terms to refer to made value discrepancies. And it's a reality that there is some consensus about may value not total. Fortunately, there are individual differences. I know a woman, a college professor who teaches Russian literature, and one of her top priorities in finding a mate is a guy who is steeped in Russian literature. So she can have these high-level conversations about Tolstoy, for example. Well, that's an unusual thing. But it's, it's an individual difference. And, and so what's a someone who's high in mate value for her might be different from someone who's Niland to Russian literature or has other interests. So there are individual differences, which is very good, but there's also some degree of consensus that is, people sort of agree that person X is in a personal Why's a six-person z as a two. And it's harsh because it involves value judgments, but it's a fact of life.
Effy
Is the idea of mate value universal or does it change from culture to culture and society to society? Or is it as universal as jealousy?
David
I think it says universal is jealousy. Overall, there are cultural variations. Of course, I mean, things like fortunes vary on their preference for body types like thin versus plump. Some of these are predictable, they vary in the importance they attach to physical appearance or physical attractiveness. There's some variability. But there's also a fair amount of consensus. And there importantly, there are sex differences in the components that contribute to mate value.
Jacqueline
So two questions emerge, then one is around a little bit more conversation around infidelity. So you noted that infidelity does not necessarily have to do with dissatisfaction within the relationship. So maybe can we start there? I'll ask that question. And then I do want to ask about the distinction between the biological sexes.
David
Well, so I think that infidelity is, is also part of our repertoire. So the way that I think about it is that humans have a menu, we've evolved a menu of mating strategies. These involve long term committed mating, which as I've noted, is very, very rare in the mammalian world, but we also have short term mating, we have serial mating, we have infidelity, mating, so being one committed partner having sex on the side, sometimes surreptitiously, and sometimes openly, infidelity has also been given a bad rap. But of course, it's it can be extremely destructive, if it's not consensual, to the top if I know we're gonna get into. But nonetheless, we've evolved not to maximize personal happiness, this is a key thing. We come from a long line of ancestors who succeeded in the mating game, who succeeded in attracting fertile mates, having sex with fertile mates reproducing with fertile mates, and then having the offspring live to reproductive age. And so that's really the criterion. And so what that means is that it leads us sometimes to infidelity, which can be motivated, for example, by partner switching. So if you're, let's say, in using that crude may value scale, if you're with a six, and then you're unhappy in the relationship, you're sexually unfulfilled, you're emotionally unfulfilled, and all of sudden the eight comes along and shows a lot of interest in you. Well, infidelity can be part of a mate switching strategy. And I think that's critical. And I've written extensively about mate switching as a strategy in infidelity is part of that. Another part is that people keep backup mates, we've done research on that as well. That is, even if they're in a happy relationship, sometimes they have a back backup mate. One woman said in our study said that men are like soup, you always want to have one on the back burner. And we found that women often have more than the one I think in our study, we found an average of two or three, and men do as well have backup potential mates, you know, miles citations that are not necessarily acted on but might be there if you choose to mate
Effy
switch. That's interesting. We on the show talk a lot about non-monogamy, right? A lot of our audience is curious about or exploring or full out, live out non-monogamy. We were just before the show, Jacqueline and I were reflecting and saying some of your data around cheating actually can be adapted to understand some of some non-monogamy and how people show up in non-monogamy because what I noticed is essential there's you know, a lot of people come to a crossroads, and they have options, they can either cheat for whatever reason, or they have heard about non-monogamy and they feel for whatever reason, and then they can try to introduce it into the relationship to solve essentially the same problem they're trying to solve by potentially cheating. So when I look at the data on why people cheat, or why people might potentially think about non-monogamy I'm seeing some similarities. So if you take out that this idea of cheating like that, you make it instead of that you're going to cheat, how does that change the playing field? Does it have any impact on the way that Josie gets triggered?
David
I think that it is a partial solution or a full solution for some people, we have to ask the question, you know what are the circumstances that motivate people to introduce non-monogamy into their relationship? And so sometimes there is a mate value discrepancy so I know cases I know several consensual non monogamous people and sometimes the man wants to introduce other sexual partners in the relationship and the woman goes along with it as a mate retentions tactic that is she's trying to keep the guy and doesn't want to lose them and so figures that will as well in some sort of the primary partner then you know, sex on this side consensual sex on the size of a different non couple as you know, come to different agreements, different exquisite agreements, that's what's permitted sign on with one couple of says it's okay to have sex outside the boundaries of Los Angeles County, but not within because in this case, the woman was worried that she would be running into friends of hers or whatever their husband and separates zones It was outside okay, but here's an interesting anecdote for you this one non-monogamous couple that I know quite well. I asked them about that jealousy, do they how do they experience jealousy? And this is a case where it's consensual on both of their parts. Okay, but this is getting back to your other question about sex differences which we get into maybe get a wedge into it this moment is that she said that it didn't bother her at all right when she slept with other women, she was totally fine with it. It didn't evoke jealousy at all. But one time, she saw him walking down the street hand in hand, with another woman who happened to be a former girlfriend, and it triggered her jealous rage in her. And that hand in hand was kind of a cue to something not sexual, but it was like an emotional tie that triggered her. And then when I asked him, she, in this case, she's bisexual. It bothered him when she slept with other guys the sexual contact, but he was okay with her sleeping with other women. And so he kept trying to pressure her subtly manipulate or influence her. They were primary partners when they had their other sexual relationships to pressure her to sleep with other women, not with other men. And so it was interesting that the sex difference which I found in my research, and is now well-replicated universally, is that there is a very big difference sex difference between the sexual infidelity and emotional infidelity aspects or sex outside the relationship or emotional commitments. And there's one non-monogamous story that I just mentioned, a former student of mine, Barry Cooley, he's a professor now did this really cool study where he looked at the videotapes of the show called cheaters. And it was a show where if you suspect your partner's cheating, you call this show they hire a private detective who would follow the spouse to see whether they were cheating or not. What if they, were they the detective would call and say your husband just walked into the Noto motel with another woman? Would you like to confront him? They have something I don't know how many seven-year 80 of these episodes of confronting the partner in the hotel, and there was a sex difference there in what they call verbal interrogations. And the man wanted to know, did you fuck him? That was the first thing I wanted to know. Where're the women? Their first question was? Are you in love with her? And so there was the sex difference in the verbal interrogation? What piece of information do they want to know? And we found that in more systematic research, in our work cross-culturally about if your partner is unfaithful, which aspect of the infidelity would upset you more, your partner becoming emotionally involved or falling in love with the partner, or your partner having passionate sexual intercourse with a partner, and there was a huge sex difference, there were more men pick this sex and more women pick the emotional attachment or love or love.
Effy
That is super interesting to me because it lands at a place that has been really on my mind. And Jacqueline and I have been discussing this, which is this, this idea that men care about sex and women care about love? I am curious to win. So the 60s seems kind of obvious, and a no-brainer. Okay, got it. The point around well, though, seems a little blurry to mean, because I'm not convinced that it is love that we're talking about which is this mushy, feeling emotional word. And we kind of like lump it all together. And we say women want love. My question, my curiosity, is that is it love the mushy emotion that we're talking about? Or is it ultimately resource management? Is it more so about commitment, and about caretaking and being taken care of? And comes from this idea, you know, the evolutionary idea that and social, evolutionary biological and social idea that women have historically needed men to take care of them, and take care of the offspring in the first three years of its life?
David
Yeah, so So that's a great question. And I guess my answer is somewhat complicated. And I think you've touched on some of the nuances of those complications. First of all, love isn't a unitary thing. And so there's pretty good evidence that people go through, even when they quote, fall in love, they go through a progression of this sort of what I call the fucking like bunnies stage, over idealization of the partner attributed sprinters, the most intelligent, most attractive, most dazzling, most fascinating person on the earth. And then after a few months, you know, that all that kind of dies down and the rose-colored glasses start to come off a little bit there, and then attachment kicks in and, and so it's a different kind of thing. I mean, of course, it would be impossible to stay in that infatuated love, you have to actually get work done and do other things in your life other than being totally mesmerized and obsessed with your partner. So, there's so there's that. I think that I would reframe the way that you pose this issue of needing men to take care of them because that's not really accurate. So over evolutionary time, we evolved from hunter-gatherers. So we spent our species spent 99% of our time as hunter-gatherers. And so without men, and this is hard for modern people to understand that we were often on the brink of starvation. That is, there were ice ages, there were brutal winters, where no berries were blooming, there were droughts, and you have to go out and hunt men in case of men large game animal and gather, which both men and women do. And women, depending on the culture always contributed somewhere between 40 and 80% of the calories to the family. And so women provided and then provide it, okay, but the hunting issue is critical here. Because when you have a drought, or an ice age, or a brutal winter, where there is nothing to be gathered then meat can make the difference between starvation and death to a woman and her children. And so and so it's not a matter of too much of needing men to take care of them. But providing resources in critical times, especially. And protection. Protection is another critical thing because we know that men can be nasty to women, and there are sexual predators, and probably always have been some in our midst. And so being mated to a man who has the ability and willingness to offer that protection to a woman and her children, that's a very valuable resource. And so I wouldn't say it's a matter of needing men to take care of them so much as providing resources of very specific kinds to the woman and her and her children. And so, you know, one of the interesting things about that is that in modern times, of course, the circumstances don't exist. So there's a big mismatch between ancestral and modern environments, women don't need men to provide me they themr just use their ownresources to go to the store and buy it. And even protection has probably become somewhat less of a problem. But still, it's a problem. So women still prioritize men who have physical for example, physical fitness, they don't like the muscle-bound guys, but fit guys have a good shoulder to hip ratio. Guys who are a bit taller than average guys who are brave in the face of danger guys who aren't going to turn and flee and save themselves rather than protect the woman. Women still value those things. And there are still threats, sexual threats of sexual coercion, and violence in the modern environment. And I talked about those in my most recent book when men behave badly and published in the UK under the title bad men, where you know, especially younger women before they become more experienced in the mating game, they're especially vulnerable to sexual predators.
Jacqueline
You talked about the distinction between the biological sexes as a relates to infidelity. Can you connect those dots as it relates to jealousy? Do folks show up differently, depending on their biological sex, in terms of how they express their jealousy?
David
Yeah, yes, they do. Yeah, and I should qualify this. And I say these are on average sex differences. So there's, there's a lot of overlap between the sexes, and you know, men. In the case that I alluded to earlier men, men are also very concerned about whether their partners in love with someone else are emotionally involved with the other person. And women are also very concerned about the sexual aspects of tnfidelity. It's just that there is an on-average sex difference. That's why we did studies where if you just ask people, people who are in monogamous relationships, how upsetting is if your partner has sex with someone else? How upset would you be if they became emotionally involved with someone else, both sexes had a ceiling effect that was like say six or seven on seven-point scale or seven is extremely upset extremely jaws. And so we had to devise different procedures to get at it. We put them what I call Sophie's Choice, jealousy dilemma, where we say, Okay, your partner is getting involved with someone else, which aspect of the infidelity is more upsetting. So that kind of forced choice. And when you do it that way, that's when you get about a 40% sex difference in responsible but they're on average. And so you get to keep the on average in mind, beause there's overlap and the distributions, that also carricarry into how they express it. And so they express it in a variety of ways. So I've developed a taxonomy of what I call mate guarding tactics of mate retention tactics that range from vigilance to violence. And so there are 19 of these things if people are interested in taking a deeper, deeper look at it. And so and so vigilance is like the first kind of line of defense in both men and women do it and the old days they used to do things like following their To partner around and physically stalk them, but in the modern times, they use a cyber hacking. So they hack into their partner's computer, look at their social media accounts, and ctheir all partner up to see if they are where they said they would be. Look for, you know, basically, the information gathering stage of things, getting back to the key point of mate value discrepancies. And this is a point that I wanted to make, that I'll make now in the context of your question, which is that jealousy can get activated, even if there's no immediate threat to the relationship. And so in general, there's what's called positive assortment for mate value, meaning people who are similar and make value tend to hook up with and a couple up. So the six is made with the six is the ace with the ace the 10s, with 10s. Okay, but that's on average. And when people initially mate, sometimes often overtime, a discrepancy emerges. So you can say you, you're both eights you mate, and then after a year, or something happens, the guy loses his job, the woman gets a promotion, you know, they become successful differentially, and that's an alter the mate value and put them into Yeah, so you can go from an eight to a six. Or you can go from an eight to a nine or a 10. And so once a mate value emerges, a Joe seeking activated even if there's no immediate threat, there are no rivals around there are no mate poachers, there are no cues to infidelity. But people get activated if there's the mate value discrepancy. And so this jealousy and mate guarding and mate retention, behavioral Tactus can come online, even if there's even if there's not that immediate threat.
Effy
That's super interesting. I just have a quick question so that I can get clear. When jealousy comes online. It's a universal feeling that, you know, we talked about, and I totally, totally get that is some of it dispositional, meaning some people are quicker to to get activated, and others kind of not so much.
David
Yeah, absolutely, there is that. And it's correlated with some personality characteristics. It's also linked to prior experiences. So in my book, I talk about this a lot that people who have been in relationships, where a former partner has cheated on, their jealousy tends to get ratcheted up, where their threshold for getting activated gets lowered. And so there are both kind of experiential triggers. Also, I mean, there are as well as kind of dispositional triggers, there's people's threshold for jealousy can get calibrated up or down. And one thing that happens sometimes in non monogamous relationships, is that people get habituated to their partner having sex with others, and so and so jealousy can subside, you know, so it's not a permanent, inflexible emotion, it can get changed over time. But there are these interesting individual differences and experiential projectors
Jacqueline
Have you referenced some of the darker sides of jealousy, stalking and violence, and the vigilance and wondering if you can share any positive attributes to the feeling of jealousy?
David
Oh, absolutely. So one thing that gets triggered when Chelsea, let's say in the case that we were just talking about when they got when there's a mate value discrepancy, sometimes the lower mate value partners stress, ratcheting up their benefit provisioning. So I mean, you can, you can think about the mate guarding you can is is a crude way of lumping them. And it's more complicated than that. But at the big broad brushstrokes there, you can provide benefits to your partner, or you can inflict costs on your partner. And so one make learning strategy that's often very effective is providing more benefits. So a person can be more emotionally available, provide more attention, get an extra job, provide more resources, give more gifts, or even in the sexual sphere, become a better sex partner improve the sexual relationship. So there is a whole raft there's a whole raft of benefit provisioning capabilities. And also what we found is that jealousy can also ignite sexual passion in a relationship. There's some evidence if there's zero jealousy, then people feel like their partner is not really committed to them or not invested in them or not love them. And so you don't want while over the top jealousy, extreme jealousy. But you don't want zero jealousy either.
Jacqueline
It's the right amount of Goldilocks.
David
Goldilocks show says I wish I coined that phrase. Yeah. And it's fact that you know, once someone when other people show interest in your partner that increases your sexual attraction to that person and we use cues from our social world. And that affects how desirable we find our partner. So igniting sexual passion is I would say a key benefit. And also displaying Jealousy is a sign of commitment. It shows that you're not indifferent. So you know, if you come home from work and your partner's making a bed having wild sex with someone else, and you go, oh, I wonder what's on TV tonight, show a bland reaction. That's, that's a bad cue. I mean, you want to see some jealousy. Now, you bet on the over-the-top and the Goldilocks, people will often try to suppress the expression of their Jaci, because expressing too much of it is a signal that you perceive may be that you are lower and made value than your partner. And so people don't want to send that signal. And so there's that other complicated aspect of the suppression of the expression of jealousy.
Effy
Humans are complicated. That is my, that is my conclusion of all of this, that humans are complicated.
David
Yes, they are. But which makes it makes them fascinating, sir,
Jacqueline
I appreciate you distinguishing the distinction between feeling it. So the reaction versus the response to the behavior around the jealousy versus feeling and experiencing the jealousy, that there is a distinction, we can feel it, we can even feel it in a big way. It does not mean that our reactions or responses or behaviors need to reflect that bigness?
David
Yes, exactly. And what people do, sometimes they suppress its expression to their partner, but then behave in ways when their partner is not backing into their computer.
Jacqueline
Yeah, yeah. I want to be respectful of time. I know we only have a few more minutes. And so we'd love to ask you questions about yourself, so we can get to know you a little better before we end our conversation. Sure. And so the first question is, what is one piece of advice that you would give to your younger self about love sex, or relationships?
David
Yeah, well, the one piece of advice I would give is, that I would not attach as much importance to physical attractiveness. And I would attach much more importance the salient relationships, much more important to personality characteristics, such as emotional stability, dependability, and non-neuroticism, that kind of cluster because, and I found this subsequently in my research, that's probably what really I had a bad meeting choice. Well, I will say it's bad but I overvalued physical appearance and, and overlooked signs of emotional instability and neuroticism. And my subsequent research found that it's disastrous for a long-term relationship if you have someone who's emotionally unstable. And so that's what I would do. And I think that men especially tend to fall victim to this overvaluation of their physical attractiveness in her and reflected the more on the other very important characteristics that contribute to the success of a long-term mating relationship.
Effy
Yeah, good advice. Good advice. Okay, what is one romantic or sexual adventure on your bucket list?
David
That's a hard one. I would say I over my life, I've had very fulfilling sexual relationships and romantic relationships. So I've been very lucky in that sense.
Jacqueline
Yes, yes. Beautiful. How do you challenge the status quo?
David
Oh, in many ways, so first of all, just adopting an evolutionary perspective is challenging the status quo because some, some people get, they get, I don't know what phrase to use a bee in their bond, or they don't understand it, or they don't like it, or they think it's biological determinism, which it's not. So so there's that I also study sex differences. And that also is a political hot button. But the fact is, you know, there are two sexes from a biological perspective, and defined by the size of the gametes size of the sex cells. And so I study I said on the study those I study psychological correlates of sex differences. And in the meeting and sexual domain, there is a lot that is large and profound. And this upsets some people and ended up some people that I talked about jealousy as a positive emotion in some contexts, and not just a sign of neurosis and pathology. So those are a few ways in which I've challenged the status quo, the scientific community,
Effy
you're a part of our gang and seem more about being on our gang. We are a curious bunch around here, and we're curious about what you're curious about lately.
David
Yeah, well, I'm curious about a lot of things, which is something being a professor I'm allowed to do. Fortunately, I'm very lucky in that sense. So in the meeting in the meeting domain, one of the things that I'm very curious about is I mentioned to one is just the cultural changes that are occurring as people are actively exploring different types of real-life relationships, non-monogamous relationships, in particular. And I think that it's really interesting to observe that and to see how different people, different couples, different communities, work that out, and how they deal with things like jealousy, you know, which invariably, invariably, almost invariably come up in these non-monogamous relationships. And so I mean, I think that we're in this wonderful position of, we have a deeper understanding of our mating psychology and our sexual psychology, that we can create relationships and circumstances to activate some emotions and keep others at bay. And how will it all play out? It's something I'm very curious about. The other thing I'm curious about in this realm is the topic of sexual morality, if you go back in human history, wherever they're written laws, there are laws about who can have sex with him who can't get marry him, who can't all religious documents have the same thing, commandments, and strictures about who can marry him who can't, how many, how many wives you can have is what's permissible, what's not. And people have sexual morality, they have very strong feelings about what is immoral, sexually, like sexual coercion or incest, or what you know, what is more, was immoral. And so that's another very active area of research that I'm doing a shout out to my two co-collaborators on this Kelly Acell. And Courtney Crosby is the two colleagues I'm working with on sexual morality. So so I'm very curious about that. And, and that's we're doing cross-cultural research, that's going to be a dynamite project.
Effy
We would love to have you back to talk about your findings in a heartbeat. So whenever you're ready to talk about it, please let us know. We would love, love, love to talk about that. And I, I want to throw some something in there for you. I find that across a lot of different areas through research, the two things that I find to be super parallel are sex and food. And my guess would be that there is an equal amount of direction scripture teaching dogma restriction around how we eat, what we eat, when we eat and eat that would be it'd be kind of interesting to see if that is also true down the line.
David
Yeah, so great, great point. I haven't looked at foods specifically. But I know some other people have like, Paul Ross and his professor at the University of Pennsylvania, who's devoted his life to selling food. I don't know if he's gotten into the laws or religious texts around that. But he's, he's a, he'd be a fascinating person to talk to about food. He's, he's the world's expert on. Wow.
Jacqueline
Thank you for your time. Professor ves really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you.
David
Thank you. So did I thank you for inviting me on. It's been lovely to talk to both of you, and hope occurs, we will have another conversation in the future.
Effy
Absolutely. We would love that.
Jacqueline
As always, I have a lot to say now.
Effy
Super interesting conversation.
Jacqueline
Really interesting. And you and I immediately afterward, spent the next 15 minutes talking, venting, processing, and recorded that and put that on Patreon. So if you're interested in our immediate reactions, Visit Patreon. And you can find out more there. I think the things that are sitting with me, well, first, the thing that is sitting with me is the Meet value discrepancy and meet value period. Let me say when I was in, I think it was junior high school or high school. I actually again, I'm embarrassed about creating a ranking document of everyone like in a grade. And like who was with what number and like, I think I asked my friends. And it was silly and you know, not meant to be anything. But somehow it got exposed and became a thing. And people were upset about their number and liked trying to understand why they got their number. Yeah, was wild.
Effy
It's like you and Zuckerberg with his or not.
Jacqueline
By the way, let me just because I was not cool. In high school. I was not popular, in my opinion, the status and value of the high school hierarchy were very low. So the fact that anyone cared was a shock to me, but I need to understand this. I want to know what my number is, like, how does one know their number? What are the criteria to determine if someone has a six or an eight or a 10? I don't like the fact that we're ranking people but I want to understand it so that's like the very first thing that kept rolling in my mind as he was talking about sixes and nines and 10s was, according to whom? Yes, I did that.
Effy
I mean, I agree. Interestingly, I'm gonna say it cautiously, but from someone with extensive experience. It feels like a very Every American concept, right nowhere else I've ever lived that had this idea of like, Oh, she's an eight, or she, you know, or he sees a seven. Like, that's a very American concept that I first discovered in like high school movies. You know, and I'm like, I don't know what that means. And then like, once I moved to the US, I was like, oh, like, this is a real thing, commoditizes everything. And.. I'm like, okay, so this is a real thing. We're actually valuing each other. So the numbering system feels very, very American. However, I think the value of meat is something that is kind of innate in a bunch of other cultures. And I think you see it most significantly in cultures that have arranged marriages. I think those marriages get arranged based on Meet value, right, and the perceived mate value. And I think there's something around somebody else kind of doing that math for you. And deciding is kind of it makes it universal, right, which is something that Dr. Buss said, like he said, Oh, actually, this, this meat value thing is universal and transcends culture and society, though it has some nuances based on the culture, it is a universal concept. And I think, yeah, we see it in this like, crazy numbering system in the US. And then if you go all into the underside of the world, you see in sort of arranged marriages,
Jacqueline
yes, yes. With the example that you gave, though, it feels like it's more there's more explicit connection of the dots between status or income and a number. And so I need to understand within the United States or within this Reacher's research, specifically, what is the criteria by which a number arises? The other piece that was interesting is the idea that status can change the status, the number can change throughout the evaluation change? Yeah, exactly. So someone becomes unemployed, or someone gets an amazing job, and another thing that I realized that I never mentioned out loud is when my partner started dating somebody else. And my response was very big to that. And when that relationship ended, it absolutely changed the way that I showed up to her, and that relationship, like her meeting value, went up as a result. And I think that was because it was like, oh, other people were interested in you, like it now became a supply and demand issue where I was like, there's only one of her and clearly demand is higher than I thought. I really need to revisit this. And, and, and it has, I mean, that was a year and a half ago, two years ago, something like that. But it stuck. It remains and gratitude around that. I mean, he talked about jealousy and the value of jealousy and what that brings, and I would actually say in that case, it did bring some value. My extreme reaction to the idea of losing her was the reminder that I needed to invest in that relationship in a deeper way.
Effy
Yeah, actually, I have heard this idea in reverse, I work with people who have essentially have witnessed their partner, dealing, being interested in having sex with somebody that they feel have a lower meeting value, and then loop that around to the idea that now that their partner has either their partner has a lower me value, therefore it brings their main value down, or that the fact that they they're me is interested in a lower value meet, made them reflect on themselves as Oh, I thought I was an eight, maybe I'm a six because he's interested in sixes, or vice versa. So I've actually heard this, this is something that happens around when people are opening up, like the judgment of the other partner, is something that comes up. And I think it's somehow subconsciously on some evolutionary sort of amygdala level to do with meet value.
Jacqueline
That is, so that's wild. And why are we so complicated? Why are we so obsessed with status? Why are we so complicated as human beings like what is happening? Life is hard already?
Effy
Yeah, we do know the store, right? And we are pack animals, humans are pack animals. And if you observe the pet behavior of other pack animals in the wild, there is a constant battle for status, which has direct links to resource management, the higher you are in the ranking of the pack, the sooner you eat, which means the better part of the meat that you get, right. And this is just like on a very basic evolutionary level. That's why I think on some animal instinct, while they make the low level, we've just tuned into that right, which is something that a professor has said, right? It's just about that, that we're a species that have arrived where we are because of our mating strategies, right? This is one of the things on the first things that you said. And I think part of that is survival. So it was like survival and meeting and having robust meeting survival and remaining strategies is brought us here where we are. So I think that's where that's where it comes from.
Jacqueline
No, I think that's true. I think that's true. I think it's, it's just hard for me to reconcile and, and hard for me, frankly, to look back at those periods of my life. I remember when my partner started dating someone, I lost like 10 pounds, like I was like, depressed it was it hit me hard. And certainly, when my wife was with her partner, that was a multi-year process of getting through that piece. And so the fact that it consumed so much of me was a real sign around the work that I needed to do to value myself, you know, we're talking about made value, but really, I needed to do the work to not have so much fear, because that fear was rooted in insecurity. But it's just, it's wild to me again, that it could I am such a rational person in so many ways. I'm so typing a well, maybe that was part of it. That the way I wanted to control it felt big. Yeah. Yeah,
Effy
I think you're answered your question, right, though.
Jacqueline
It makes me think of the Goldilocks jealousy, which now we've coined as a party, if you're curious to know that that was a source is good, is Goldilocks jealousy. But it makes me think about that, in terms of the different levels and different ways in which people express their jealousy, feel it, and express it. And I hope that now at least my expressing it is a lot better than it once was.
Effy
Yeah. I mean, I think the Goldilocks jealousy piece really resonated with me, too. And Professor bass actually writes somewhere, only with a healthy balance of jealousy and trust. Can we be certain of a mate's commitment, devotion, and true love, which, you know, I think when you first read it, at least when I, when I first read it, I was like, what drew me in and just like this, this old rhetoric around Well, if your partner is jealous of you, that means they love you? And if they don't, if they're not jealous of you, that means they don't love you like that, that rhetoric, it reminded me of that, and my initial reaction was, I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to even I don't even accept that the statement exists. But on, on reflection, and having spoken to him, I think that Goldilock's piece is the key, right? It's, it's a balance of jealousy, and trust me. So the jealousy that keeps things alive with jealousy to sort of keep a gauge on how you feel about your partner, and how their partner feels about you whether they value you and it seems to be a biological reality. And trust in that Sure. Like that is going to use it to ignite your experience and how you feel and engage on it. And also trust that it's going to be okay, and your partner is going to stick around and is going to stick with the commitments and the agreements that you defined. Because otherwise if you're truly just wrapped up in jealousy, and that's all you can think of, and that's all the thing, that's the only thing that affects your behavior. I think it's just going to be a miserable experience. So I think, yeah, Goldilocks jealousy, like a little bit of this a little bit of that and find that beautiful sweet spot.
Jacqueline
I know, but how that feels like a tight rope that feels like that, because, you know, if we were living, we're looking at Goldilocks, my reaction in the past at least was very big. My wife was very opposite of that. I remember one day I was getting ready, I was going to attend a play party, and I was getting ready and I like showed her I was like, I'm gonna wear this thing. And she was like, Okay, have fun, you know, be safe. See you later. And what's not like there was not a sign that emerged it was the example that Dr. Buss gives of you know, someone having wild sex and you're like, I wonder what's for dinner? That was my experience at that moment. And so afterward I had that conversation with her was like you didn't feel anything? And she's like, Of course, I did. But we made a commitment to each other that we were going to allow each other to have these spaces and these experiences and I did not want my feelings to impact you particularly right as you were about to leave. And so I said but it did because you weren't jealous at all. I was like next time let's find that little bit of tight rope in the middle of like, while you look great, you know feeling a little jealous and I hope you have a wonderful time you know to be safe I'll see you later like that. There in the center felt like the sweet spot.
Effy
Sure. There's also I think there's something to be said just going back to what we were saying at the beginning around activation right? Also, this is a teaching moment ding ding I think we need a ding for teaching moments. teaching moment everyone's emotional activation looks different for different people. For some people, emotional activation looks. What you like what you would imagine loud and moat-like full of motive Enos. You know, a lot of words, a lot of gesturing, right? That is what emotional activation can look like for some people. For other people, emotional activation looks almost exactly the opposite. It can look like indifference, it can look like this connection, it can look like, not even that, right? Not completely unaffected. And it is absolutely the absolute opposite. So this is also to say if someone doesn't look like they're jealous, and they might look completely indifferent, it might be worth taking a pause to breathe and thinking, How does my partner react when they are feeling big emotions? How do they normally deal with other emotions? When do they make when they feel big, overwhelming emotions? What do they do? Oh, funny, they get quiet, they get still they become very, very even-tempered. Hmm. The chances are your partner is feeling big, big emotions around jealousy as well. And just it looks different for them.
Jacqueline
Yes, yes, that is true. The octopus and the turtle? Yeah, avoidant versus anxious attachment, all of the things that keep going back to that we did a podcast episode about the octopus and the turtle, the person who is reaching out, and the other person who is going internal. And I think that the right I think that that's how she showed up at that moment. And so, so that all to say, so the numbers stuck with me, the Goldilocks and my reaction stuck with me, I think the other piece that I continue to feel resistance to that I just need to work through is when we talk to evolutionary psychologists, and I think this is maybe the third or fourth person that we've talked to, I feel resistance to believing that those practices, those genes, those behaviors are impacting me at this moment. I've shared before that I don't like horoscopes, I don't like things that try to tell me who I am. I want to believe that the controller in me is like I get to decide. And so that idea of like biological determinism of what has happened in the past, predetermined and controls my behavior and my actions now, and I know that that's not what that said. But that's where my mind goes. And so I reflected on the what Dr. Adar Eisenberg shared in the episode with him around, think of it as rocks within the river, and you know that they're there, and you may stub your toe, and may it take some work to like, go a step over them. But know that these evolutionary traits are inside of me. And I just have to be mindful to say, Oh, there you are, don't want to stub my toe on that. And to step over, like, there you are jealousy, thank you for being a normal part of making sure that I am safe, and I have the resources I need, I'm going to decide not to react in a big way because of you. This step is right over you. That is that's what I'm sitting with now is that resistance, and that understanding that I have to just let it go step over the river rocks.
Effy
I love that. Yeah, it's funny, it's we are often on the same page. And a lot of things, I feel like this is one area that I'm almost on the opposite end of, and from what you're saying, I find evolutionary psychology to be the most interesting field within psychology, I think it's absolutely fascinating. I more often than not go down and into rabbit holes, like finding out all this stuff. And I find it actually liberating the way that you imagine it to be biologically deterministic. I find it actually liberating in that, oh, okay, so some of these hang-ups that I have some of these reactions that I have, I have nothing to do with me, but it is hardcoded in me. And it gives me a sense of, okay, like, it's not, it's not just me, it's some wiring that has come from millennia of evolution. And now in my with my wise mind, I get to make some decisions. And whenever I explain, you know, basics of evolutionary psychology, you know, when I'm explaining to people about attachment, when I take that path, I see that liberation in them, I see them go, oh, okay, like, it's just how I'm wired. Now I get to make decisions, like the reason that I'm showing up this way is not my conscious, or it's not, it's not what I want, but it is how I'm wired and how the wires are like sparking at this moment. Can we just rewire it? You know, there's an opportunity to rewire and move forward with that. I actually find evolutionary psychology to be kind of liberating and very insightful in a behavioral kind of way.
Jacqueline
I think I've been convinced. I think you're right. I'm still resistant. But what you said is true.
Effy
I was just star sign Zodiac astrology, like you. I just feel like with it's different from evolutionary psychology. I feel like oh, it's like, it's my ancestors. It's not in the stars. But it is. It is the billions of humans that came before me that have brought me here. It feels more grounded than what the stars say. Yeah, though I do read, though I do read Susan Miller.
Jacqueline
I believe in all those, I actually believe that they're that those signs exist. It's not believing that that is real, it is resistance to knowing it because thinking then that is going to predetermine or control me. But to your point, understanding what exists, and what is possible, allows us then to make different decisions. So fair points, if
Effy
you will. Last but not least, a really practical takeaway, is the distinction between jealousy and envy, which is something that comes up all the time. So I was surprised to come up against it and be surprised and kind of learn something new, discovering a new way of thinking about it and knowing it, understanding it, the way that Dr. Buss said jealousy is about relationships. So the feeling of jealousy, as different from envy is really mostly to do with that it comes up in the relational dynamic. Envy is more about, I want that thing that you have to like, I want that thing that you have to, which is not relational, it's more resource and status and kind of what we want and what we desire in the world. Versus jealousy is significantly about threatening a relationship, a significant relationship, right. So a significant threat to a significant relationship is what jealousy causes jealousy, and envy is really desiring something that you see you don't have. And that distinction. I don't know. It was new for me.
Jacqueline
Yeah, agreed. I knew your point, I knew the distinction between you can't have what I have, and I want what you have. But the nuance of the context within relationships specifically, and the jealousy really shows up in that space, I think was new for me. Yes. So if you were as curious as we were about this topic, First, go to Patreon and take a listen to our initial reactions after the show. And then go online and find out more, go to Professor David Buss's website at David buss.com. Follow him on Twitter at Prof. David Buss. And of course, find us online you can find us at We are curious foxes, on the website, on Patreon, on Instagram, on Facebook, all the ways in which you can find us not yet tick-tock, wear resistance, and resistance. You can tell resistance, a lot of things. So not there yet, but almost everywhere else. If you search, we are curious foxes, you will be able to find us and we would love if you find us to hear from you. So please rate, like send a comment and share this podcast with other folks. It really does make a difference. Our goal is to change the noise and you can be a part of that you can help us challenge the status quo. And then let us know if there's anything that you want us to explore and take a deep dive into you can email us or send us a voicemail at listening to we are curious foxes.com Or you can record a question for the show by calling us at 201-870-0063.
Effy
This episode is produced and edited by Nina Pollack, who does excellent work for us as well as other podcasts. And we're not jealous. Our intro music is composed by dev Sahar, we are so grateful for their work. And we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic. We solely aim to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind. And we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious, curious. Thank you. Stay curious.
Still Curios?
