Ep 170: Forks in the Road, Greener Grasses, and Subscribing to the Sucky

How often have you second-guessed a decision, wondering if the other option would have spared you the heartache? How do we navigate life's dilemmas when every path seems to have its own set of thorns? Can we ever truly escape the consequences of our choices, or is it about finding peace in the decisions we make?

Effy and Jacqueline return from their break, diving deep into the often overlooked aspect of decision-making: the inevitable challenges that accompany every choice. They candidly share the less glamorous sides of their own decisions and offer insights on how to weigh your options more holistically…and accept that things may simply suck either way.

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Listen to Episode 89: Haunted House of Relationships Fears, and then pick a fear that you have when it comes to love, sex or relationships and see if you can design your own scary haunted house room. Once you are done, get out your voice memo app on your phone and tell us all about it by sending it to listening@wearecuriousfoxes.com. 

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Curious Fox @wearecuriousfoxes
Effy Blue @coacheffyblue
Jacqueline Misla @jacquelinemisla

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TRANSCRIPT:

Curious Fox

Hello, hi. Hi. Hi. Hello. I'm curious about curious about I'm curious about cute is about building open, authentic, loving relationship? I'm curious about jealousy. I'm curious about polyamory, just mean that you're fucking all the time. How can I tell my parents that my partner is already married and curious about how do you know when you're too busy to have another relationship? I'm curious about dominant and subordinate relationship. I'm curious about sexual health. How can relationships evolve with people as they grow and change, being as resilient as they were, and then there's other folks, I think now that that are really trying to avoid pain and discomfort and as much as possible, and neither of those are the right place to be.

Effy

Welcome to the curious Fox podcast, for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.

Jacqueline

And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today we're talking about how things suck. Specifically accepting the fact that no matter the choice we make in our relationship or life, something is going to suck.

Effy

And we're coming back from haters with this positive message for the people coming back and saying

Jacqueline

we were gone for a month, and that's our takeaway. That was my

Effy

takeaway from a month of my it is, and that is a way that we're choosing to start part two of this. Everyone, welcome. I wonder, I wonder actually, if this is somehow reflective of the haters, the way that we've spent our haters.

Jacqueline

Good question. I mean, my highest did not suck. So I went to Sicily for two weeks. So lucky at all. I spent time at the beach. I did a bunch of stuff. I mean, I've done a lot of therapy and EMDR and that can that maybe personal growth. You know how fun that is? Yes. And no, I haven't. Good hiatus. Did you have a good hiatus?

Effy

Yes. I also did some beaching and some travel I went to a winter Greek island and I'm in cold calls. That was really nice. And then just because, you know, I'm run out of things to do. I decided to launch curious Fox in a whole other language just for funsies. And see, see how that turns out. But you know, just just experimenting, playing. Yeah, a

Jacqueline

little side gig.

Effy

In your language that I don't speak so well. Yeah. But I'm like, I'll just be like Editor in Chief. But did did it suck? No, I wouldn't say I wouldn't say it sucks.

Jacqueline

So this this hiatus, I went to the movies, which is something I haven't really done a lot about once streaming happened. I wish I could go the movies more, but I just don't prioritize it anyway. So a few different movies, one of which was the new Barbie movie. No, no, you have not seen yet. But it's on your list. Yes. In the recent Barbie movie, there is this modern day reference to a choice made famous by the red and blue pill in the matrix. And Barbie is given a choice between a high heel and a Birkenstock to either go back to blissful ignorance, or to know the truth. And despite her desire to go back to the things we were, she's already started down this path of knowledge. So there is no going back. And I've been thinking about this, I've been thinking about how many of us have these fork in the road moments, a point at which we have to choose like, should I? Should I stay in my relationship? Should I leave my job? Should I give myself bangs? Like these big and small moments where you got to pick a path with only the information that you have at hand? And how tough that is? Sure. Decisions are hard. Yeah, I think it is tough. Also, because we know what we know. We don't know what we don't know. Right? So we like, we know what it's like to be partnered unemployed and being homeless. And we can imagine what it's like to be on the other side of that choice, right will be I will be happier will be more successful will be more fulfilled. But you don't know. What about you? How do you handle forks in the road? Like, are you good at making difficult decisions?

Effy

So I think for me, let me think about this. I think there's like three three ways. This goes for me, I think some decisions like if logical approach, right? Like if there are decisions that I can approach logically, I tell myself a story that the decision is made for me if it's like, I can do a pros and cons. It's very clear. Like this is the right decision. And I can kind of just fall into this idea. Well, that is the logical reasonable decision to do like if I if the choice that needs to be made, falls into logical category where I feel comfortable approaching, approaching it logically, that I'm like over it, like every kid, even if it's even like there's a part of me that's going oh, Oh, we should have done like I was I wish we did the other thing. I'm like, no, like, that was the right thing to do. And I kind of believe or hold on to a story that the decision is made for me, it's kind of outside of me, I think those ones go easy. And then there is my there is the intuitive approach where I feel like I know like, I, I just believe that I know the right decision. There's like something inside of me that is decided. And it's intuitive. And it's like I even though I can see why the other side exists, there's just nothing inside of me that calls me in that direction. So that's like, also it needs a decision, I find I find the intuitive ones similar to the logical approach. It's like, it comes with a knowing. And I'm, I'm over that. I'm like, Oh, this is what it is. I'm over it.

Jacqueline

So the logical assessment comes when there is no intuitive answer, right? You look into yourself, there's no clear answer. And you're like, alright, pros and con lists. That's what's happening next. Exactly,

Effy

exactly. If the intuition doesn't kick in, then like, okay, logical, like, can I just like, work this out? And then I'm like, Okay, can I work this out, and I kind of can do the mental gymnastics of it, and the math or the foam formulas and algorithms, and I just come up with what feels like, or I imagined where I believe, I guess is logical when we get to an answer. Like, I think if those two parameters are activated, I'm good. Like, I make a decision I move on. Now, the third category is indecision. When none of these things seem to work, I either have no interest, I can't look, I can't like, look into my feelings, like I just don't get any feedback, I don't get an intuition feedback. So I'm like, okay, so that isn't working logic, either is, goes around in circles, like it doesn't resolve itself. Or there is just like, full on resistance, which kind of, like takes logical offline. And, and that's like, when my avoidance kicks in, that's when I kind of freeze around the idea, I then put it in the back of my mental desktop, and open tab. And that's kind of like it starts to use up a bunch of CPU a bunch of bandwidth. And the decision just as like, it's like, it doesn't, it doesn't happen, and that sucks. And then I think that happens to me, when there's a part of me that perceives the thing to be like high stakes. And it's like high stakes in a certain way. I have emigrated twice in my life, and I made those decisions fairly fast. And I've moved like continents and jobs that, you know, along with those continents, and, you know, like, I've made big stick decisions, it's a big stakes a different way. Like there's a part of me that despises it's high stakes in a certain way. And it has something to do with I think I my investigation tells me it has something to do with permanency, like what I perceive to be permanent, right. So like, and this silly thing is like, the biggest one for me is like tattoo, I don't have any tattoos like I don't, because I just cannot decide on a tattoo. I can't ever imagine myself deciding on a tattoo you the idea of making such a permanent decision, then you'd like into a body and that is what you have to live with for the rest of your life. I'm just like, holy shit, this is the highest stakes in the world, right? Well, you know, while I'm, like, you know, moving from continent to continent, and making major decisions around relationships, and like, you know, that big stuff, and then I'm like, Well, how could you possibly anyone decide what to do with a silly thing, like buying big things that I can't return like big ticket items, for some reason, I acknowledge her. And I'm like, Oh, I'm locked up, you know, signing, like signing two year contracts on a lease, you know, for some reason, it feels really permanent. Yeah, so I think there was like, there's a group of decisions that don't come easy for me, and I think I understand them, I understand that the quality in those decisions that that locked me up, and I'm working on those, mostly is actually emotional regulation. It's like, nothing is permanent. There are only two permanent things in his life. This is to take life and to give life. Everything else is impermanent, in one way or another. And I think I need to is when I sit myself down and kind of have that talk with myself and be like, you know, like, let's just like get regulated and then try to make a decision then I can overcome most of those indecision moments. And then there's a bunch of them they just are permanent in their in their decision to just kind of hang out in perpetual open tab. Until we get decided, never gets inside a mess. I have to like unless someone's hurting, I'm hurting so much. You know, something has to be major for me to go back to a tab and be like, Okay, fine, I'm gonna make that decision. Anyway, that's how I roll. How about you? How do you roll when it comes to a fork in the road?

Jacqueline

You I think you'll be shocked to know that I take choosing very seriously. I want to note, well, first, I want to know all of my options beforehand, right? So I can, I can scroll endlessly through trailers trying to decide what to watch, just in case there's like, a better movie out there that I haven't seen. Or if I'm trying to figure out like what I want to eat, I will sit and like, visualize myself like eating the thing. And imagine like, which one will I enjoy more like, I need to like, assess all the things. And while I'm excellent at making quick and thoughtful decisions when it comes to work, I absolutely am terrible about it. Personally, I think. I mean, I think to your point, I think there's some things that I just know, and there's certainly the the pro and con list, but I live in that indecisive period for much longer than I would like, you know, thinking about about 20 years ago, I had to make a choice between a small walk up in Williamsburg or rent stabilized pre war sized apartment and Kew Gardens queens, and they both had good things and bad things on the in the pro and con list. And I remember that the decision left me like almost catatonic like, there was we joked about it, like literally a single tear drop, just like streamed out my feeling the like inner conflict from within. But I was like stuck. And, you know, I ended up picking the apartment in Queens and lived there happily for several years, I lived there on my own, I lived there with my ex husband. And then you know, when we had our daughter, we lived there. However, even though it was certainly the best choice, I think for me at the time, it still had its challenges. And so you also may be shocked to know that often the choices that I make are not as great as I thought they would be. They may be better than the alternative. But I think that living in my choice rarely is as bright and shiny, as I imagined that it would be.

Effy

We don't want to hear you say that what comes up for me is this idea, like the grass is always greener. On the other side, you know, FOMO? You know, kids call it FOMO.

Jacqueline

Yeah, yeah. And again, it's your point. It's not all the time, but there are definitely more moments that I'm comfortable with where I'm like, Ah, but should I have? Oh, oh, no. Yeah.

Effy

Let me ask about this, though, is it correlated to how long it took you how arduous it was to make that decision? Hmm. Like, is your doubt about your question, no doubt about your decision or like this idea that Oh, should I have gone the other way is correlated to, you know, how difficult that decision was? Or how how much? You were indecisive about it or anything like that?

Jacqueline

No, I think that when I am trying to decide something, I create this vision in my mind of what it's going to be like. So before I you know, decide to buy a particular thing that you know, maybe a article of clothing that I think is going to, that may be more expensive than I would want to spend or like if I'm going to color my hair in a different way. Or if I'm going to, you know, whatever the thing is, I may I create this like, imaginative vision in my mind. So suddenly, I'm gonna wear that thing to like the opera, or like to like this fancy party on like a rooftop or whatever. And like, that's the perfect outfit for that thing. Now, though, those are not things that I do. I certainly been to operas and rooftop parties. But that's not a common thing in my life. But I have this vision. And when then I am wearing the thing, and it doesn't feel like that. Or, you know, the hair color isn't it's not blowing in the winds the way that I expected. And like everyone, like turning to looking gorgeous. I like when it's not the vision in my mind. I'm like, Oh, this was not a bad decision, but it wasn't as great as I thought it was gonna be

Effy

okay. Okay, so the impact of your decision like what you what you imagined the decision is going to afford you. Mm hmm. Isn't isn't quite living up to what you imagined. Then you're like, maybe I should have gone the other way.

Jacqueline

Yeah, I think so. Or again, maybe it's not even that I should have gone the other way. It's that I don't think that I looked at the downsides as much. I knew what my current cycle I said before, I know what I know. I don't know what I don't know. I know what my current situation feels like. I haven't I have a vision of what the other situation will be like. And so I gamble on it. I'm like, let's try that thing. And then, you know, then when I'm in the other situation, I have to assess does this feel better or worse than where it was before?

Effy

Yeah, cuz I think people this idea that the grass is always greener, right? You only think that when your grass sucks, like no one's no one's happy with it. No one is happy with that grass is like lush green. Like, beautiful bouncy, bouncy. faux grass and goes, Oh, it's greener on the other side, you only think that when you are so in some way dissatisfied with your

Jacqueline

right? Patching, it's starting to turn brown.

Effy

Yeah, yeah. And I think in those cases, you imagine like the other side is your salvation like you imagine, because you're in those moments are the only pain you're imagining is the pain that you are holding on to like the like, how, how ugly you are, or how unsatisfying your grasses. And then you're like, wow, there's this this other side. And it's greener. And I think we think that's your, that's your salvation. So in one in the your side, you are in the pain of it. And on the other side, you comparing it to all the good of the other side, you're not comparing pain to pain, joy to joy, you're comparing pain to joy of the other side, I think that's the worst is that this is where the grass is greener, on the other side, I think falls falls down as an idea.

Jacqueline

Yeah, yeah. I mean, essentially, right? What what's happened, my current state sucks in some way. And if I choose this other thing, then I will be happy, then, you know, all of my needs, and my dreams will be fulfilled. And of course, you know, that's simplifying, I don't think in terms of in that way. But I do think there's a part of me that has this grander vision of what life will be like, if, whatever I choose whatever fork in the road show, and then I can sometimes find myself disappointed or surprised even when it is not. It's not that.

Effy

Yes. And I think in addition to that, with social media, you see so many other sides, like you see so many other yards, that appear to be greener than yours.

Jacqueline

I mean, certainly people are sharing the best parts of their lives, right? They're sharing the highlights. And so you're comparing with the expression, you're you're comparing your behind the scenes to other people's highlights reel. Right. So I think that's true. And I think that people also then not only show you the best, but really, really advocate for their choice. Really just, you know, say like, this is the right decision, like I chose well, so I chose to have kids, that was the right decision. I chose not to have kids, that's actually the better decision. And so each person is like creating these camps of like, my thing is the best thing.

Effy

Yeah, exactly. And then you're like, did I make the right decision? Am I in the right camp? There's a whole other camp over there. And yeah, I can definitely, I can definitely see that. I think I think we feel that the most poignant in matters of the heart, as well, I think it's like relationships, relationship structures, and, you know, difficult decision of having kids or not having kids if this is a choice for you. So I think it becomes really poignant, when I think the closer to decision is to your sense of identity, and your sense of safety is I think, is when it becomes the most poignant, and this idea of like, Am I in the right come down to put FOMO you know, greener grass on the other side, all that stuff comes into it, I think,

Jacqueline

hmm. And so I agree with you, I think, with that in mind with with the knowledge that things will suck, and the knowledge that people often share the parts that don't suck. I think that we have a responsibility, you and I to tell the whole story,

Effy

the truth and nothing but the truth.

Jacqueline

We gotta wait to admit that no matter what, frankly, there's going to be some disappointment, there's going to be some unmet desire, there's going to be some pain. And so we are going to take a short break. And when we get back from break, we're going to tell more of the story. We're going to share more including what sucks about your current relationship choices, my current relationship choices. So if you want to hear all the things that suck, and stay tuned.

Effy

If Foxy Friends, it's time for some audience participation. We have three fun quick and easy ways for you to be involved with Jacqueline me and the podcast, and help us challenge the status quo and love sex and relationships. Back in episode 89, for Halloween of yesteryears, we had fun turning our relationship fears into rooms of a haunted house of relationship horrors. For example, my fear of getting stuck in a relationship escalator, without any power to shape my own destiny turned into a room where Upon entering, you stepped into a Stairmaster style contraption with the exit door at the top. Your attempts to get out just kept you on the Stairmaster with no joy, no design, just drudgery of social compliance and misery. Scary even thinking about it now. This year for Halloween. We want to open the haunted house once again, but this time with rooms from you. So here's the invitation. Jump on to episode 89 If you haven't heard it already, or need a refresher, and then get creative, pick that one fear Add that you have when it comes to love sex or relationship and see if you can design your room that represents it. Once you're done, get your Voice Memo app on your phone and tell us all about it, then send it to listening at we are curious foxes.com He's only to include your name if you don't want to.

Jacqueline

Next in my four and a half minutes of spare time, I opened an Etsy shop. It's a place for me to create products that I want to wear and use from bags for femme lesbians and bisexuals who want to make it very clear that we are not just allies, to shirts that declare that I'm with him and her to tote bags that proclaim that I've got 99 problems and white hetero mono normative patriarchy is basically all of them. The Etsy shop is filled with fun pieces, each designed to help us challenge the status quo and celebrate the beauty of pride. Use code podcast to get 10% off through the end of September. And if you're in the US get free shipping straight to your door, visit the roots and wings gallery at at sea or find the link below in our show notes or on my Instagram bio.

Effy

Finally, one huge way you can support the podcast is by connecting with the show on your favorite podcast app, this can be a hot favorite are a Follow button. Also rating the show and leaving a review on Apple Spotify or wherever you listen, we don't have any advertisers or sponsors. So we rely on our community of listeners to spread the word. If you enjoyed the show, or if any of the episodes have meant something to you write a quick review as soon as the episode is over.

Jacqueline

And remember that the best way to stay in contact with us is via our newsletter, where you'll get new episode dropped emails, monthly digest and themed emails where we curate and share all of our episodes about opening up jealousy, sex and more. Jump onto our website, we are curious foxes.com and sign up to the newsletter. And while you're there, check out our blog posts, resources, reading lists, recommendations, and so much more.

Effy

And we're back. Okay, so before the break, we named the fact that no matter how much information you have before you make a decision, and how great people tell you things are on the other side, we will have to contend with the things that are difficult, unsatisfying, and simply just painful. Which, you know, classic, quote, Buddha says, life is suffering. Everyone's heard this. And I have to say, Yes, life is suffering. If you dig into that idea, though, what you'll find is it this is not the perfect translation of what he was saying. Of course, these things get lost in translation. But if you didn't little bit, the less catchy but more accurate to the sentiment translation is something like life does not satisfy which obviously not so catchy, which essentially means like nothing is perfect. Everything comes with some level of compromise letting go adapting accommodating cetera. And in fact, he says the source of suffering is attachment. Right? Which is, which is the opposite of all the things that I've just said. So it is attachment and a fixation on something. And the unwillingness to compromise unwillingness to let go unwillingness to adapt or accommodate is where sort of suffering lives. Right? And so the idea is when we're making decisions is not to avoid the unavoidable pain, but find a way to accept it find a way to make room for it, right? So just realizing essentially no matter what we pick, something is going to suck it's just the way the world is. And yes, what we want to talk about is first of all, like talk about all the things that suck and also like and then and then how do you make a decision right? Now what now that we know we agree everything every choice every

Jacqueline

now that we burst your bubble what you choose, everything's gonna suck because

Effy

there are there are no right choices. They're just like the decisions that you make

but ultimately, everything's gonna come it's gonna suck and I see this a lot with my practice right? I see this a lot. You know, you get people come in and they are convinced transitioning into another relationship structure is going to is the right thing. It's going to be the it's going to be the Registered one person comes in like, they can only think of all the amazing things that it thinks that's going to happen once they become non monogamous, monogamous couple comes in. One of them is like, you know, they cannot imagine anything going wrong. All they can imagine is like how wonderful the relationship is going to be or at least that's what they're articulating. And you know, all the adventures and all the fun all the things that are just going to be good and like how much they wanted, how it feels right all that kind of stuff. And then You get the other person who's kind of swinging hard the other way, like, all they can imagine is, you know, this is going to be the worst decision that we've ever made. And it's going to suck 100%. Right. Yeah.

Jacqueline

And those two people, right, they marry each other. That's

Effy

and then they mad, and then they come. Right, right. That's right. While they do that, they have forgotten how much monogamy sucks. Because everything sucks, right? Not because we're not gonna be sex isn't as like a separate thing. It's like they've just like, both of them actually have kind of forgotten to assess like the sucky parts of their existing choice. Right? And, you know, the truth is, they're both their benefits on both sides. We know this, like very top level stuff, monogamy can bring consistency and structure and safety and security, while it's being kind of like monotonous and potentially stagnant. You know, over the course of the years, you know, non monogamy Yes, it can be fun and fun when a full of variety and adventure and your newness. And of course, it's harder to handle, there's instability, there's insecurity, you're swimming against the current of the social norms, and all that kind of stuff. So there isn't like, this is the choice. It's really about, what decision are we going to make? And how are we going to how are we going to handle the outcome of our choices? And we're gonna talk about what that can look like in a minute.

Jacqueline

Right? Because it's not objectively that one is better than the other. Right? It is, what is better for me? And so of course, they're gonna be positive to any of the choices that we make. But I think it's realizing that there will be downsides to any of the choices that we do. And are we okay with those downsides? And is whatever we choose the best option for us? And how do we do that kind of thinking? Right? You? How do you do that? Yeah. How do you do kind of thinking, how do you figure out for yourself when you are kind of picking between the your options? You said before that is you either do ProCon list, or that you intuitively just no does that? Is that also true within your relationships?

Effy

Yes, when it comes to matters of the heart, I kind of think of it in a in a two axes situation, which obviously, matters of the heart and a math equation doesn't sound they should fit together, but they kind of do in my head. So when I you know when I'm deciding on like the sucky when it comes to relationships, I think of like one axes is the person, right? How I feel about the person. And then the other axes is the circumstance, right? The circumstances in which we are deciding to connect and, and relate to one another. So this could be anywhere from a relationship structure, which is what we talk of the most in this podcast, but also like, our life circumstances. And like in my current relationship, the two axes are kind of interesting to me on the person axes, it's, you know, I'm very fond of this person. They're German. So there's a there's a great word and in German, it's Felipe. And it's cute, essentially means like, in love, somewhere between, like, in love and infatuated. And, like new relationship energy, like all mixed up, it's just like a German German word called Felipe. And so I keep going around saying I'm Felipe. So that's kind of where I am. And this person is, you know, a wonderful or wonderful person. And if in the in the good stuff, right? They are, well, they're worldly. They are multilingual, they've traveled, you know, traveled the world for many years. So there's a lot of experiences that overlap, which I find doesn't overlap with many people for me, so that there is there's this stuff that I that I'm like, wow, this is amazing. We're both like dancers, and we find healing and grounding and dancing and also a connection between us through dancing and movement and that kind of stuff. So there's all this like, good stuff. And then sort of the, I guess the thing that really fits on an axis for me is, we have a big age gap, like over over 10 years, maybe, let me get this straight, like 15 year time, 15 year age gap, where I'm older, right? So like the other way around a whole other story. This way around is what it is. And when I think about it, and I've thought about it in many ways, and there's a whole episode coming on this, I can definitely make a pros and cons list for this, right? Like there's a bunch of amazing stuff and there's a bunch of like, there's like a sucky stuff that I'm aware of, on the other axes of like lifestyle, or circumstance. We have a multi hub life means that we bounce from hub to hub and which is adventurous and fun and new and exciting. Both holding multiple passports and have our hearts set in certain locations in the world and we're doing the bouncing and making it all work which looks great. If I was gonna

Jacqueline

say Yes, yours would be the Instagram account that I would follow. I will

Effy

post on Instagram.

Jacqueline

We're in Greece this week and now we're in Germany and then we're gonna go to Bali and then we're gonna be in this place. Oh my gosh, just you will I can picture it like holding hands in like different backdrops always chasing the sun. So like, never wait. It's Eternal Sunshine for you.

Effy

Right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, know exactly. What you don't know is that the reason why he went to cause is because he's visa ran out for the country that I'm in. So he can't come into the country. So I had to go out and the nearest place that I can go is this you know, Island and he kind of flew in, I took a boat. And then this is the, this is the sucky, right? Like, this floating around the world comes with bureaucracy and paperwork and schedules, and, you know, cars, buses, boats, trains, you know, a lot of organizing of that. And money like travel costs money. You know, I have a dog that needs to be taken care of that I have to make arrangements for. So this is like a beautifully if only we Instagrammed beautiful Instagrammable live also has a bunch of psyche stuff that is hard to deal with. And, you know, we have to make some hard decisions. We have to make some practical decisions where where otherwise, maybe we would make some romantic decisions like that other thing. Yeah. Like that's, that's like amazing life and it's like sucky fallout. That is really not fun. Yeah, and I know, I know, people assume like, Oh, what was you like your life? I'm so sorry that you have to travel. With three. German? Yeah, what was me was me. And I like, and this is what I mean, like, this is this thing that I think we need to understand. It's like, there was amazing this amazing life, which I'm grateful for also has a bunch of sucky stuff. No, of course, that yeah, subscribes I

Jacqueline

remember, you know, talking to you. And you were, you know, as with every relationship, there are some hard moments and some hard conversations and you sharing your frustration it is harder to have a tough conversation from multiple countries away. And you know, when you're in a difficult conversation, and and afterwards, you just want to hug each other and kind of have that closeness, that in order for you to arrange that took boats and planes and all the things just to be in the same room so that you can have the hug at the end of the argument. Like that really does suck. I know we're joking, but like, that is really hard when you miss someone when you wish that you had that physical touch in that connection or again, just like there are timezones. Yeah, just to figure out when you're talking to each other. That sucks.

Effy

Yes, there it's amazing. And it sucks. Yeah, yeah. Okay, what about you tell me tell me you're telling me your your your sich nice hockey, what's what's amazing and what

Jacqueline

I know, I have so many to choose from. One of the things that I've talked a little bit about is what non monogamy looks like, for me, is different than what I envisioned it would be in that I was married, we opened up the relationship we both were non monogamous coming into it. But at some point about four years in, we decided, okay, let's No, like do this thing. And it was a rocky start. To put it mildly. Then my vision was I'm gonna go out there and date, I'm gonna go on an adventure. Again, the vision in my mind, I'm in Greece, I'm on a beach in Greece, I am meeting some beautiful tanned person who's like, with an accent and, and we have this like, wonderful like two weeks together. And then I come back, and I picture myself like laughing and making out at a party dancing and being whisked away to this place and that place. And and that's not what it is.

No, that does exist for people. So let me say that is I've just described someone's life. And that sounds always them.

But the truth was that that wouldn't necessarily fit into the life that I have right now. And kind of my values of my priorities, you know, I have a 12 year old daughter. And so like just taking impromptu trips, degrees all the time, is not the thing that I can afford me. And I also just am who I am. I remember, at some point, I lived abroad, I lived with my ex husband and Panama for a year. And leading up to it. I was saying to myself, I'm gonna do yoga every morning. And then I'm going to go to the park and I'm going to watercolor and then I'm going to run back and I didn't do any because I don't do those things, right. I don't do those things. Now. I do. The fact that I thought that I would go there and do those things. And so the truth is when I was dating, and it was hard, I like would immediately The relationship. And you know, a few people were like, This is moving a little too fast because I've been in full, like, full on relationships since I was 16 years old. So I don't really know what it is to date. I think maybe that's why I have that vision in my mind. Because I'm like, This is what it's like, right? But I'm better at like being in relationship. I like the subtleness of that. I love like first kisses and new relationship energy and like going on dates to different places. I love that. But I don't love like, I hate actually date, like, I hate. Like, do they like me? Are they gonna text me back? Should I like that, like the game playing I'm not interested in like, so anyway, I made that decision, I'm in the two relationships that I'm in and like, shut it down after that. So like, opened it up. And then like those two relationships, and then shut it down. And it's great in so many ways. Like, it fulfills me in so many different ways. And it also still sucks because it's like freedom and adventure that I went into non monogamy for, I don't have, I just have two sets of household expenses. Just I have these two amazing people who I love, but so that's really hard.

Effy

I also heard you talk about how you also gave up a lot of personal time, because that's what two relationships say. Like, you don't get much time to yourself. And that's, that's another thing that I know that that you talk about. It sucks. Like there's no there's no Jackie time. There's like one household, the other household. And then in the middle, right? Both of my partners

Jacqueline

have that time. My wife is alone for a week, my partner's alone for a week. So they both get there. Like, you know, whatever they do for the week on their own, they get to have that. And I'm never alone. Never Alone. And so I'm trying to carve out spaces for that. But I know that I've made this choice. And again, being in it. I wouldn't choose the other side. But I wouldn't have chosen this actively. Like this happened. I was dating and you know, fell in love. And then we evolved from there. And we moved in together and all the things but this wasn't the plan Effie.

Effy

Okay, let me ask you this question then though. So given, given where you're at you went into it, it wouldn't be your active choice, you kind of so that's kind of interesting. In the big topic of this, this conversation, right? Like, you don't necessarily you weren't aware that you were in a in a particular crossroads. Or in a fork in the road, you're kind of wandering around you wandering down the road, and you're like, oh,

Jacqueline

yeah, I think I realized it when I was a few steps into the fork, right. So like, at some point, there was a transition from casually seeing my partner to being more serious. Now I don't remember I wasn't like at that crossroads in an awareness way. I think we like said I love you. And we're like it. And I'm like, oh, wait a minute, like, I'm down this this path. And so there was an opportunity for me to decide, okay, I want to turn around and go the other way. Like, I definitely had that option. And decided, no, I'm going to keep down this particular path that I'm on even though this wasn't the path that I meant to get on. I'm enjoying it. And so I'm going to keep going. And today again, so many things that are wonderful, but there's a lot also that sucks.

Effy

Okay, let me ask them, it's just between us. How often do you think the grass is greener? Just because no one's listening just between you and me.

Jacqueline

Or when I have a crush on somebody, I think the grass is greener. Sure. When I want to travel on my own or go out without having to like check schedules. And you know, think about her feelings and stuff like the autonomy and freedom that I wanted. Yeah. And when in seeing other people in the beginnings of their relationships, or the beginnings of like dating and like, again, like sleeping with someone for the first time or kissing them for the first time or like, you know that energy around? I don't know just getting to know someone in the beginning. You You You speak on the phone for hours. You're saying this you speak on the phone for like two hours because you're like learning everything from scratch. Now like my messages are just like, Hey, good morning. Morning. Did you sleep? Well? I did. What about you? Like that's so then then it feels like the grass is greener.

Effy

I think the grass is greener when I'm packing and at the app Am I making decisions? I hate packing. That's when I'm like, I just want to live in the you know, in an orange grove and grow my vegetables and take care of my cow and chickens and not ever set foot outside. But then I do. That's pretty good. Yeah.

Jacqueline

The other choice that I've spoken less about on the podcast is my decision to get divorced, as married to my ex husband for over a decade and we have a daughter together. And we were together since college. So this was a really formidable time in my life. And we decided not to be together anymore for a number of reasons, you can listen to former podcast episodes to explore all those things. But it was the right choice for us not to be married anymore. And at the time, I was truly heartbroken. But it was also focused on all the things that could be possible after the divorce, probably out of necessity, I thought about the freedom that I would have to pursue non monogamy and the relief of not being engaged in the same arguments over and over. And the ability to set up my household and all the things with my daughter based on what she and I wanted, without having to compromise with him. And the ability to explore who I was, you know, after a decade, outside of my relationship with him, there was a lot that I was looking forward to. And yet, this choice also has a lot that sucks. I mean, first and foremost, just the sadness that my daughter has experienced as a result of the divorce. And her her always missing one of us and always had, again, having to travel back and forth, which I know very well how hard that is. I can only imagine, you know, for her for her birthday this past year, her wish was just that we would all be together under the same roof for nine. Play games and watch movies I know isn't. Yeah, you know that she was just like, out of all the things in the world she could pick, she was like, can we just can I have a night where I don't have to pick one of you and have to go to one side or the other. That just was awful.

Effy

And then she got two sets of presents and got over it, right?

Jacqueline

We we got separated when she was two, she's 12 now. So it's been 10 years, and she's still sad every switch day, it is still hard for her. So that sucks. Something I didn't think about but also really sucks is like the end of shared traditions and like inside jokes and routines. And, you know, when I was married, we used to anytime we traveled, we would go, we would get an ornament, a Christmas ornament for the tree from every location. And so we have them from different countries and and then each Christmas, it was amazing. So we would set up the tree, and we'd hang these ornaments and really reflect on these adventures that we've had together. And then when we split, I think he has most of them, I have some of them. And he does use them. But I don't because in my house, my wife and her family has like, once from generation, so they put those up. So I just don't know what to do with these in my travels, see an ornament, I feel a little sad, like this tradition that we had, or the again, these memes or we used to make fake radio commercials together. And like movie ads, like there were just these things that were really sweet and amazing. And we don't do those things anymore. And that's sad. And then the ability, frankly, is particularly as being a parent to complain to someone and to feel seen when your kid acts like an asshole. Like that is something that I

can is that of course her dad and I love her and we die for her and all of the things right so we can complain about her. And we like this one. Can you believe you know, and like see all the things and like, text each other and be like, Oh, right. If her dad reached out and complained that was like, Oh my gosh, he's such an asshole. I'd be like, for real she really is. My wife turned to me and was like, she's such an asshole. I'd be like

yeah, let's write like, I have to

say with my partner, like, if they're critical of her, I'm like, Yes, totally. Like, it's, I will certainly complain about parenting with eat with both of them. But when they start to agree or like add on, I'm like, Alright, we're gonna stop that, right here. And so there's just something about in the moment being in a parental struggle, and turning to the person next to you and either venting or getting support or tag teaming things in the middle of a tantrum. Like I gotta write those things out on my own, you know, as does he, and we can text each other in between but it's not the same thing as like, being able to like tag someone in and be like, I gotta go take a walk like yours. Do that. And so as long as we can co parents there is something about parenting together and this like family unit, if you will, that I didn't realize I would miss and that sucks.

Effy

I get that I get that I think even a decision like divorce where you think that you know people divorce each other because they don't want to be you know, they because of all the sucky stuff, right? Like divorce is divorce is the result of the suckiness outweighing the good, and you're like I'm out here. It's interesting that post divorce when you look back like what you're what you're telling me the suckiness is, post divorce is all the good times. Oh, Hmm, that was that that was available beforehand. So that was really interesting.

Jacqueline

Yeah, yeah. All the good times that were, and all of the kind of intimate moments that are lost now, like we, again, I think we have a great co parenting relationships and are friendly and all those things, but there's just, you know, there was he was my friend for so long and like to have that anymore. It's, it's hard.

I get that. I get that. So I have a question for you, actually. Because I've been also thinking about this, talking about divorce and thinking about the pain and the struggle of it. There's an interesting shift that I've noticed across generations when it comes to tolerating pain, right? Like our, our parents, and our grandparents not only dealt with pain, but they weren't like a badge of honor. Right? The Boomers lived through war and poverty. And they raised Gen X, who were very, like rough and tumble, right? Like they were like kids playing on the roofs and with BB guns, and like, right, they had this, they were told in the morning to like, get on their bikes and leave and not come back till dark. So they have this like, very different life. And then, but then Genex raised millennials and Gen Z in a different way. And now the narrative about pain is different, right? There was there was this awareness of, oh, that sucked, right, the wind like our parents didn't seem to care about, they didn't seem to pay attention, right? Like our trauma was not acknowledged, like we're going to do, we're going to listen to our kids, we're going to validate them, we're going to try to minimize the amount of pain that they experience, which is all wonderful. But now, maybe we went a little bit on the other end, I don't know. Well, you know, I look at my daughter and her experience, and her disappointment comes much sooner than my dad was younger. And I think that we are told that if something hurts, it's not good. For us. It is something is difficult. If a relationship is difficult, it's time to move on. And that's not necessarily true if Michelle Obama, at some point was talking about her relationship with Barack and said that there was a good 10 years in their marriage, where she just didn't like him. And this was like during his the beginning of his career and do you know, raising the children and all that stuff, and she's so we had to get past that. And I remember thinking, My God 10 years, where you like, I don't like that person. But I see the long picture. And so I'm going to tolerate this pain for the greater good. I think that there's less of a tolerance for that. There's more like, oh, this doesn't feel comfortable. This feels like it's I'm in pain, this feels difficult. This hurts. That is a sign that I need to be doing something else. And I don't know what true that is. So I'm curious about your thoughts?

Effy

Yeah, I think there's definitely on the pain thing. With the newer generation, I think, I'm curious about that, right? Because I know for myself, that sometimes, my resilience to pain is too much. Like, I would estimate somewhere between like 20 to 30%, like I should have said, I should have said, I should have stopped or said said no, or cut it off, or, you know, whatever the boundary is, like 20 or 30%, earlier, whatever the unit is, right. But because I'm resilient, you know, I know, I know, I can keep going. So I will just do it, you know, and that looks like me, you know, not eating for hours, as I'm working or like, you know, holding my you know, that that all the way to staying in relationships for longer because I can, you know, tolerate the pain longer. So I think there's something about when it's too much, she resilient, too hard, and, you know, too willing, you know, there's that, right, but I can definitely this idea of to mature, resilient, and then I think hard swing the other way, which is like, if the sun doesn't shine, I'm going to cry all day, like that kind of like, you know, being so deeply affected by something that is so out of your control. And you have no resilience that you will just like crumble, if somebody like looks at you the wrong way, right? I think probably the place in the middle is where we want to be right? Like, you want to be resilient, but not not so resilient, that you're suffering. And we'll talk about in a minute, right? Or you don't want to be, you know, so soft, that you can't handle what regular life throws at you. So it's like finding that find that middle ground.

Jacqueline

And to be fair, I mean, I think millennials and Gen X or rather Gen Z and that they've had to deal with stuff that the other previous generations didn't have to deal with, right? So like being being able to afford just to live frankly, being able not only to get a house and have a family but to be afford to live like I don't want to undermine what our generations now have to experience. It's more about the way in which we look at pain. And I think what you're saying makes sense. There are some folks that almost felt like, drawn to it like and felt a real again, sense of honor and pride for being as resilient as they were and then there's other folks I think now that I'm that Really trying to avoid pain and discomfort as much as possible, and neither of those are the right place to be. Both of those are going to be uncomfortable everywhere you understand is gonna be uncomfortable. But I think both of those feel like too extreme.

Effy

Yes. And I think we need to make a distinction between pain and suffering, right. We talked earlier about life and suffering, and sort of actually what was trying? Well, not what he was saying, which is how we translated understanding. But there is a distinction between pain and suffering, right. And pain does not need to be the end of a relationship or a situation, right. So, for example, the pain that I feel the morning after a hard workout, right? That pain, I'm okay with that pain, I'm happy with that pain will lead gives me some joy and a sense of satisfaction. I am clear what it affords me, it reminds me them healthy, remind you that I you know, worked out that I have something good for myself. So like I can, I can totally tolerate that pain. So you're looking at a couple and one of them is works 18 hours days, for whatever reason, right? Let's say they're committed their job, that's passion, are they making a lot of money. And the the other partner is, you know, aware of this. And maybe they'll they're looking at maybe a longer term relationship, maybe they're thinking about getting married, right? And you need to really look at that 18 hour workday, and decide what that's going to be like for you, right? If you don't really go through it and realize, okay, yes, there are pros, like there's gonna be more time for myself, you know, we'll have the weekends together. And, you know, it'll be fine. And we're going to live, you know, comfortable life, because he's making a lot of money, all that kind of stuff. And if you just focus on that stuff, and you don't really realize that, you know, the person who works 18 hour days probably isn't going to be that fun over the weekends. And you know, there's going to be times there's going to be lonely and you know, there's going to be potentially resentment, if you don't really like work things out with an 18 hour day, you probably don't have time to work things out all the time. So are you a type of person that can thrive in this situation, right? And if you if you don't think about those things, if you don't really think, okay, am I going to be able to thrive? Really ask that question. And then go into it knowing do, I will thrive and these are the hardship that I need to put up with is the sucky that I need to subscribe to. And I knowingly subscribes that, yes, it's going to be painful, but it's not going to be it's not gonna be lifelong suffering or end up, you know, in a divorce, right. But if you don't do that, if you don't, if you can, only if you only imagine, like fun weekends, and like endless resources, and no money problems, and, you know, late night, sexy time, you know, and you don't really subscribe to the other stuff. And when you when you all that when you you know, when you are married, when you are partners, when you are life partners, and you rely on each other, and this person is at work at work or at work at work, and you're just suffering this idea that they're just not there for you, because you haven't fully considered what the whole thing was gonna look like. Right? And I think that's difference between pain and suffering.

Jacqueline

And then there's that moment where if you do share that, like, Hey, this is hard for me, the other person, you know, I couldn't picture this in so many scenarios. Well, you knew what you were signing up for. I've always been like this, right? You knew this was what was going to come. But what I hear you saying that makes sense is, it is the surprise, and the lack of preparation for the sucky parts that makes the difference. So for example, I'm thinking about, again, my journey into non monogamy and always identified as non monogamous even before I knew what that word was. So like, knew this was the thing I was going to do, but totally thought about all the positives and knew like, well, there's going to be jealousy and there's going to be times that are hard. And this near me some tough conversations, like I absolutely acknowledged it. When I didn't do that second piece of, okay, I know there's going to be jealousy, but how do I act when I am jealous? Right? Like, I become suspicious, I become obsessive, I become manipulative. I become, you know, emotionally distracted. Like when I am jealous, it is not fun times. And so knowing Oh, there's going to be jealousy, there's going to be tough conversations. And are we what am I like when they're tough conversations? Like what am I like that I didn't do? So there was this element went truly went when my wife and I struggled with the non monogamy piece. I was shocked. Like this is I pick this, I introduced this, this is the thing I wanted my whole life, my whole, you know, relationship life. How could I be feeling this way? But if I looked at my relationship with my ex husband and relationships before, I really could have predicted a lot of showing up. Certainly, how do I show up on it like I could have, but I didn't do that I did not prepare for the pain. And so it surprised me when it arrived.

Effy

For sure. Yeah, I think that's why I talk about this idea of like subscribing to the pain, like subscribing, that is sucky. Because in, in the, in my mind in this, in this idea of subscribing, you're kind of saying like, this is what I'm doing. This is what I'm going to be dealing with long time not for long term, I know this thing exists, it's going to be a part of my life and I'm going to find ways to adapt to, to accommodate to work with whatever the you know, compromise whatever the whatever the action is, I think that's what I mean about SUBSCRIBE, LIKE actively subscribing, I'm going to deal with the sucky, not like, oh, this sucky exists and put it to one side. But like, this is a lifelong practice when it comes to this relationship. I'm going to you know, Josie and non non monogamy is a great example for this. So honestly, I've been doing what I'm doing for a long time now. And I've met dozens and dozens of couples and you know, various other more Sims. And I really never have met anybody who does not feel jealousy. Some people feel it more than others. Some people are triggered in different ways and others. And I really never met anyone who's like, I never feel jealous in my non monogamous relationship. But like, even at the beginning, you never did like read the first like the first time your partner went out and do it. The first time you saw your partner, you know, having sex with somebody on a, you know, at a play party, or, like there was no point in your relationship that you didn't feel jealousy, that it's very, it's very, very rare. And I think as you go into, as you are going to non monogamy, there are things that you are going to have to experience like jealousy, like scheduling differences, you know, like bandwidth management of like how much time you're how much time a brain brain space that you allocate into your partners and all that kind of stuff. And I think just going into it knowing, like, those are part of non monogamy and there's, I can give you a bunch of lists that goes with monogamy, you know, what you just like? These are the pitfalls. And this is one of the conversations like these are one of the first sessions I have with my clients. Like, here's where we're here is where people thrive like this stuff, really like the right person it really makes makes it for them. And here's the stuff that pretty much everybody stumbles over, you know, like, so like, let's make strategies, how are you going to deal with that? How are you going to deal with that night when your partners are on a date with somebody else? And you home alone? Like, what is the plan? Are you watching a movie? Are you calling a friend? Are you going on a you know, a friend date are you know, painting? What are you doing? You know?

Jacqueline

Yes, no, that makes complete sense to me. You know, I think that I didn't think about that in advance. Certainly, I just didn't have that in my mind. But I am. I'm a very good problem solver again, professionally, when in out in that world, I get paid lots of money to make important decisions and problems out my way out of things. And that's how my brain works. And so I also think when I'm in an uncomfortable situation, my brain is like, no, no, there's an out here, there's a way not to feel pain anymore. We just haven't figured it out yet. As opposed to just accepting it. This is why my suffering is that I am not accepting the pain. Yeah, I can give you many examples to two that come to mind immediately are my daughter is a preteen now and going to be entering into her teenage years, there's already lots of rolling of the eyes that are happening, right? Lots of you know, I can see via her eyes that she thinks that I'm stupid. And then she is, you know, amazing, all the things. Now this is universal. This is developmentally appropriate, right? She needs to start individuating herself so that she can eventually go on and have her own life. I know these things like study child development, like I know. And yet, with every roll of the eyes, I'm immediately furious. Immediately. Like you're being disrespectful. Absolutely not, we will not do that. And it's like, and she's 12 I have many years Fe blue ahead of me, rolling eyes, I need to get a piece that this is gonna happen. I have to stop fighting it.

Effy

You're suffering this is exactly.

Jacqueline

And they think that what, for me, it's not only in the beginning when I first decided to you know, have to have a child understanding what would come from that. But there's a reevaluation that needs to happen in each stage involve relationship where each stage of life to say this new thing is coming. Let me gear up for that. You know, another example I can think of is within my relationships that in my mind, we're gonna have sex forever, and it's going to be amazing sex. And then the, you know, four years in when my partner's like, I think I'm good for right now. I'm sure I've been shocked. I mean, you've been on the other line, those phone calls from me saying, How could this be?

There? I have to I there's there's a way out of this. I just haven't figured it out. And I did not stop and reevaluate and think about the stages of relationships and prepare myself for the pain of not having as much sex for example, as I would want to have and what that looks like. So, yes to acknowledging and also like a reassessment. reevaluation and a re acknowledging and a re acceptance. Oh, for sure. That's

Effy

why it's subscription. That's why this is an ongoing effort. I think that's what that's I think that's why it's important to think about in that way. So I have like a four step suggestion, right of how to do this, because we talked a lot about that everything comes with the pain and suckiness. And there's also true. So what do we do about that? First, it is just acknowledging that no matter what you decide, there is going to be some pain. There is no, there is no, you can almost like Rest assured, I would say that there is no, there's no choice, there's no answer with no pain. So you can be like, you can let that pressure go, you can be like, I didn't pick the option, with no pain, there is no option with no pain, right? So like, let that pressure go and acknowledge that there's going to be pain with whatever you decide. So I think that's the that's the first one. And then imagine how you will respond to this pain. Right? Like, really think about when I experienced this thing? What is this going to be like? So when my partner's working their regular 18 hour days? And um, you know, I'm home alone for yet another evening? What will that feel like? How what what will that feel like? And what can I do? How am I going to deal with it? Right? Like, what am I going to do? So, really, like, take on the on that pain, take on that suckiness sit with that pain and be like, in my worst day? What is that going to be like? Right? And then and then like do that self audit? And think about how are we going to handle it? Do you have the resources? Do you have what you need? Are you the type of person who can do that? Right? Are you the type of person who thrives on their own with a lot of like alone time and don't really need, you know, a partner by their side? Right? You know, if we're talking about non monogamy, a unit type of person that can you know, really work on regulating their emotions and dealing with their jealousy, like, are you that? Are you that person, right? Do you want that for yourself? Like that was really important to do you want that for yourself? Right? Which leads me into my third one is like, get very clear about what each choice will afford you. Right? So I put up with this, I deal with this pain. In return, I get this. And I don't mean that in a transactional way, right? It's not like I do this, you know, I do this, and I must get this. But it's like, big picture stuff, like I am putting up with this thing. Because, you know, this relationship affords me again, not a transactional way. But a forge for you like the thing that it creates, because you're making a choice, you're making a choice for a reason, let's just get clear about why you're making that decision. Right? And it could be something like, you know, let's go back to this relationship with the 18 hour workday, right? This person is providing you with a certain type of relationship or certain type of safety and security, whatever it is, and you're like, okay, the 18 hour day is I put up with the 18 hour days because of this right? No monogamy, you know, the jealousy, the insecurity, the unknown, right? You deal with that stuff, because you enjoy the freedom that you get the variety feeds your soul, seeing your partner, you know, in your relationship, energy elites, you and in you kind of see them, like be so happy that it makes your day, right. You just need to get clear about what each of these decisions afford you. Yeah, and we do that. We do that in other ways. But I think to your point about being more intentional, like I have a dog. And there are many times where I'm completely annoyed, where she keeps barking or she, you know, wants to go out, we just went out all those things. But I will definitely deal with those things in order to have her in my life, right? Or when my wife like, is convinced that she's going to eat leftovers, even though I know that she is not. And every day that passes, I see it there and I asked her, Are you going to eat this? And she says, Yes, I'm going to eat it and two weeks pass, and it's still in the refrigerator. And then I have to clean out the refrigerator. In those moments,

Jacqueline

I remind myself, that I'm going to accept the sex of inconveniences, because I love her and in the life that we've built together. So we do think all day long, we are making some compromises for the bigger good. I think what you're saying is about really getting clear around these bigger decision points, acknowledging the sucky, that's going to happen, really being thinking critically about when I'm in a sucky space, how do I respond? And then am I willing to put up with that for this other thing?

Effy

Right? It's not even a question. It's like, I am willing to put up with that. Like, I subscribe to this. Right? Because that's when that's when you stop for your pain turning into suffering because you're like, This is how it's going to be I'm not attached to the other version of this. I'm going to roll with it as it comes I activity subscribe, and I think it's then it's this then you made a decision that feels good and that you can live with. And maybe not necessarily think about the grass is greener. And should I make that good because this it's the same process for every decision that you're going to make. There's going to be suckiness, you're going to have to deal with this document. You got to get clear and real about it. And then you're going to have them describe every single decision you make comes like this.

Jacqueline

Yeah, yeah. Right, exactly step for the last of the bunch to actively subscribe. And I think in those moments, for me, at least, I feel more in control, I feel less like something has happened to me. And I've made this decision and go back to what you said in the beginning about the pros and cons list, which I make many of but that there's also that like sitting in the quiet then to ative piece that you were talking and saying to say all the things are going to be hard, which one just feels right, like moving the list of side and things like really thinking about and saying like what feels more authentic to me what feels more aligned with who I am in this moment, knowing hopefully, that you can change your mind with certain things with complication, but change your mind in the future. But at least you're choosing it then.

Effy

Yes, yes. And it's interesting, something that you said about like, I love my wife, so I have the same so it's a little bit more intellectual for me, right? So my 15 year younger partner. Yes, I love him. And on top of that, I am actively subscribing to the sucky that comes with the age. It's not really about whether I love him or not, right? Because I can be like, I love you. Right. But the thing, like I love you, but the age difference and the pain the suckiness that it comes with, I just can't live with it. You know, it's just, I can't subscribe, like, it's gonna become suffering for me. I don't want to put up the pain. So it's it's actually less about how you feel about the other person, but more about like the thing that you're subscribing the thing that you have to live out. Yeah, I think that's an important distinction.

Jacqueline

Yeah, yeah. I agree. I mean, certainly for me, definitely. There's certainly both right, that I that I love her. I don't love the leftovers that are in the fridge for a month. But I love the kitchen that we remodeled together, I love the home that we built together. I love the way that our values are aligned around how we want to show up in our home and in our life together. Like I love those things, in addition to gratefully also loving her.

Effy

Right, right, right, exactly. And I think this is really to acknowledge those people out there who are like, I love this person, my partner, my parent, Mike, whatever, I just can't do the relationship part. I just can't the pain is too much the pain is suffering. You know, there's nothing that I can do to sit in it to be okay with it. Therefore, you know, I'm not going to subscribe, and that's okay. And that's not about you. That's not about them. It's not about feelings. It's just about what you're willing to tolerate. So you can thrive.

Jacqueline

So there you have it. That is the down and dirty truth as we promised it, that there is no decision without consequence. There is no path that is perfect, and there is no choice that is pain free. If you leave your relationship, your children might ache from the memory of what it was like to be together. And if you stay, your children might eat from the heartbreak of watching their parents tear each other down in between for smiles. If you quit your job, you may feel financially insecure, and worry about your worthiness. And if you stay your time and your energy and your spirit may continue to wither away. If you tell your family the truth of who you are, you might lose their affection. And it can change the way that they look you. And if you lie, you could carry that lie inside of you growing in weight and fear and resentment day after day. It is going to hurt regardless. So choose the path that is more aligned with your truth. Because pain with peace of mind is better than pain with regret. Here here. If you'd like to share your reactions to this conversation, you can start a conversation on our Facebook group at we are curious foxes. You can also visit our website at we're curious foxes.com for previous episodes, blog posts and resources on related topics all under the umbrella of Love, Sex and Relationships. There are bonus cuts and mini episodes and online workshops and a whole lot more available to you if you go onto Patreon. At we are curious foxes. We would love for you to share this episode with someone who you think needs to hear it. If this conversation has meant something to you then please leave a review for the podcast on Apple, Spotify, audible Stitcher, wherever it is that you're listening to. And if you haven't already, follow us and leave a rating. That is how the podcast algorithm decides if it's going to recommend our show to others. So we need your help in that. And then finally if you have questions, stories to share, if you want to weigh in on your House of Horrors, then you should share your stories with us. You can reach out to us via email or you can send a voice memo to listening. wearecuriousfoxes.com This episode is produced

Effy

by Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla with help from Yağmur Erkişi. Our editor is Nina Pollack, who we would pick time and again with no regrets. Our intro music is composed by dev SA. We are so grateful for their work, and we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends.

Curious Fox

Stay curious and curious, curious, curious, curious,

Effy

stay curious.

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