Ep 12: Missing the People We Love
Art by @valeagapi
From gift to family dinners to demands on our time and attention holidays are fraught with opportunities to feel frustrated and grateful. It can be a tender time of year as people gather in groups to celebrate the holidays.
Effy and Jacqueline explore the delights and complications nonmonogamy can bring to this time. Effy and Jackie focus on missing the people we love and feeling left out during the holidays as well as discuss what can be done to minimize heartbreak and pain that can come up.
To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla on Instagram.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Effy
Hi, I'm Effy Blue. And this is the Curious Fox podcast. Curious Fox podcast is for those who challenge the status quo and love sex and relationships.
Jacqueline
My name is Jacqueline Misla, and welcome to episode 12. We're in December. And with the holidays right around the corner, we wanted to explore the delights and complications that nominal may brings to this time of year. And in particular, we want to talk about missing people and feeling left out. So from gifts to family dinners to demands on our time and attention that holidays are fraught with opportunities to feel frustrated and to feel grateful. And so let's dive in.
Effy
Yes, I'm talking about talking about demands on our time, right? Absolutely, it is a tender time of yours. It is a time of year where people collect in groups, and often what we call family groups, right and friends. And if you are practicing non traditional relationships of some sort, it is a time where people tend to feel left out. And most people are sometimes excluded in groups where they feel they should be included. And it could be tough, it can be tough for partners, it can be tough for family members who are struggling, struggling with structures. It could be also tough, just good old fashioned scheduling, and travel and being in all the places at the same time. So yeah, it's a whole thing.
Jacqueline
And they're like stacked on top of each other. So you have Thanksgiving, you have Christmas, you have New Year's, so it's like possible opportunity for conflict then again and again.
Effy
Exactly, exactly. I think that could be an opportunity, you can say that you can take one and then the other, you know that there's there's some compromises there. But it's definitely to be reminded that compromises are needed or like accommodations that we made that it is not as smooth and easy as maybe you feel it's going and the rest of the year. It's true.
Jacqueline
Well, so to that point, that that's what I'm doing for the holidays. So I am spending Christmas with my wife and then spending New Year's with my partner. And so you would think then like, Okay, we worked it all out, like we figured it out, we're balancing and everything is good, and it is good. And everyone feels really grateful. And there's still missing that happens, you know, when I'm with one, I will miss the other or whoever I'm not with me feel not included. And so that's part of the challenge. It's like, even when you do even when you've worked it all out and worked out all the details, then there's still the missing.
Effy
Yeah. So do you mean so when you tell me you're missing? Do you mean when you're with one partner, you're sort of missing the other one? And when you're with another one? You're missing the?
Jacqueline
Yeah, yeah. And I let me say I think it's two things I do absolutely show up is fully present wherever I am. And so I can get lost in the space that I'm with and with the person that I'm with. And I feel grateful that I have that ability to show up fully present. And there are absolutely moments where something will happen. Or they'll be reminder, you just realize this like settling in of like, Oh, I missed that other person. And I feel really grateful that I have the level of communication in my partnerships where I can see that I can name it and say, I'm really missing this other person or I'm thinking about this or just start talking about it. I feel grateful it took a while to get there. We were not there in the beginning where we got to that place. And I don't know what to do about it. My you know, as you know, I have a daughter and her father and I co parent her and so she's with him a week and with me a week. And so she experiences missing as a constant part of her life. She's always only with one of us and always trying to you know, figure out time when she can manage and spend time with us both and so there's a lot of conversation about missing that happens in my household is you're missing a part of your childhood.
Effy
Well, I kind of yes, a big part of child my childhood. So I these days in my adulthood. I think I've experienced that so much when I was growing up, I don't necessarily miss people, or I should say, I'm so used to missing people that it's it's it's an emotion that I know I can tolerate really well. I left home when I was 12 to go to boarding school. So missing my like the primary caregivers like my parents, like I'm missing them was a big part of my life from a really really early age. So you I now I just kind of it's like I guess I'm metabolize it in a way or I'm used to build a muscle. Exactly. I tolerated really well. So I don't necessarily, again, it's like, you know, similar to jealousy. It's not that I don't feel jealous or it's not that I don't miss people. It's just, I can tolerate it really well and it doesn't interfere with me too much. It doesn't throw me it's too much But I do feel the flip side of missing, which is feeling left out. Right. So there are definitely occasions where I do feel, you know, left out, which I think is the other side of that, like the the flip side, right, right. And I do feel like, sometimes when you are, when you feel like you're missing someone, it might actually be that you're feeling left out. And then it registers as missing, right? I do. I mean, as, as we're getting ready to do this episode, I kind of wanted to really sort of do a deep dive into this idea of missing and, and I looked at the psychology, the biochemistry of it all. And as I do, because I'm a nerd, and also reflecting on my own experiences. So I know that I've, you know, shared with you before the, the time that I, you know, I'm not quite Christmas and holidays, but my one of my partner's sister was getting married. And the idea was that they were going to do like a ceremony for family. And then they were going to throw a big party like don't later on in, in the year. And my partner, sort of when he found out he sort of rushed upstairs to tell me, yeah, my sister is getting married, they set a date, you know, we're going to London. Like, yay. And then it turned out that she didn't want me there. And she sort of her way of going about it was, it's for family only, and my partner, my ex partner is married. And so the invitations was extended just to him and his wife, and that it wasn't extended to me. And to an extent that it was it was I was actively excluded. You know, she's not family, family only. And, you know, there are other dads, you know, there are layers of dynamics in that story. And the way it was handled, blah, blah, blah, which, you know, I don't know if it's any, well, there are other topics that we can get, this story is going to come up over and over again, and we'll dissect it. And there's like a bunch of other dynamics on like, how do you manage your partners? And how do you get in with family exactly, and making sure that everybody's invited, where they knew we are inviting them and all that kind of stuff, and we'll we will dissect the story over and over again. But in this case, it felt I felt very left out, you know, and because it was specifically set out to, you know, with, with this distinction of like, family only, you know, and for me, you know, I subscribe to this idea of a chosen family and family is what you make of it and, and at the time, you know, we felt like family was certainly lived in the same building in our family home, you know, so it felt very anti, our relationship very against it, it felt very divisive. So I felt, you know, I felt left out. And I think that's, you know, that's, I can see how that could work that could be saying with people who, you know, go home for a family Christmas dinner, and the partner is not allowed and the other partner or an other partners aren't allowed because it's a family Christmas dinner, you know? So I can see how like this idea of what fam, what is family, and you're not family, because you're not a recognized label, you know, you're not a partner. In the traditional sense, you're not a wife or a husband in a traditional sense, you know, you're not really family you are, you know, you don't get included in that.
Jacqueline
Right, it starts to feel really like existential like, who am I? What am I? Who am I to you? Who am I? How do I exist? Right? Yeah, no one knows about me, this is partners, this partnership valid,
Effy
Right, right, right. And if you have any kind of insecurity, it's gonna get exacerbated, you know, you have any kind of worry or concern about your relationship, it's gonna, like, blow in is gonna blow up.
Jacqueline
And it's a good point, too, because I'm thinking about when I have felt like, I was home and my wife was out, and I missed her, or I'm wanting to be there. But that wasn't necessarily true. Like you. To your point. It wasn't about the activity. It wasn't like I wanted to be in that space. I just wanted to be included. Yeah, I felt left out or excluded. Right. So no one maybe wants to go to that family Christmas dinner. Right. Really? Like, yeah, let me go. But it's just like the fact that you weren't invited. That you can't be there?
Effy
Yeah, yes. So I do think like this idea of missing, you kind of have to look at it, like, examine it a little bit to watch. Like, what what's underneath that? I do? I'm wondering, the more we think of it, the more we're talking about this and looking at it, it does feel as the same qualities of this idea of like, jealousy, which is a message it's not really a clear emotion, but more of a message of like, there's something underneath it. You know.
Jacqueline
Because it's a reminder to imagine of what you may want or what you don't have. So I was I was with my partner the other day and was on the phone with my wife just securing up some details for the big family dinner that we throw for the Christmas Eve. And we were talking about what color plates and napkins and some just like logistical things while she was shopping and then hung up and got back to being present with my partner. And I realized that that made her a little uncomfortable that conversation because it was an it was a reminder that there was a part of my life that she's not a part of And in my mind, I'm like, we're talking napkins and plates, like there is nothing excited, like, there's nothing to be missed there. And I realize it's about being included in this aspect of my life.
Effy
For sure. I think that's, that's really at the core of it all, you know, it's like, I think I'm missing is about recognizing someone's absence and and at the same time that your absence in their life. Yeah, you know, so I do think this idea of missing and being left out or like, you know, very adjacent to one another. Yeah. And again, if you feel like you know, if you're missing somebody, it's worth kind of thinking about like, what what do you think is happening, that you're missing them, you know, and, and I do also think that we romanticize, like with most things around relationships, we romanticize the idea of missing right? Oh, my God, I missed you so much. It means like that you love me like we have these correlations, romanticized correlations of certain emotions, or as a proof of love and commitment and, you know, affection, right? It's, it's similar to jealousy. Or if he's, if you're jealous, that means you love me, if you miss me, that means you're like, love me, you're desperate for me, you know, and we think these things are good, you know, these things means romance and love and not so much.
Jacqueline
See, that's really interesting, too. So my wife and I recently had a conversation, we've been together about seven years. And we show up very like, like, desperate for the other personnel with for our partners, right? And I miss you, and I can't wait to see and this is magic, what we have. And when we see each other when we're home, we're like, Hey, what's up like? And you know, that sense of longing doesn't exist. And so we actively have conversations about this, like, Okay, should we be worried about this? We're like, No, I mean, I feel good. Do you feel good? Yeah, I feel good. And so when we were unpacking it, we realized that there is there needs to be this external verbalization with these other folks who don't have a formal life with we don't spend all our time with saying, like, I still care about you, and you're there and I miss you. There's like a reaching out that happens via phone and via text, and, and that when we are with each other, my wife and I, that the fact that we keep coming home to each other is the answer. Now, I'm smiling to myself. And I imagine you're smiling, if you can recall our sessions from over a year ago, when I was meeting with me, my wife and I, when we were dealing with with with some of our struggles, and opening up, there was a moment where my wife said, but I keep coming home to you. And I was like, but that's where you live, like held me under, that's not a big deal. And I remember Effie sitting across from us saying, no, no, that's a big deal. She doesn't have to come home. And she does. And I understand that now, in a way I didn't then that we have these magical, really loving relationships that we could go run off and explore. And the fact that we leave those at some point to come back to each other is enough of a message in and of itself, that we care about each other. And so it has helped me reframe kind of the missing thing too, because I've worried about that, like in my relationship, I'm not having that same sense of longing and desperation. Like is that a bad thing?
Effy
Yeah, yeah. Again, I think it's because we romanticize this idea of missing, right. It's that if you you love if you love somebody, you miss them, you know, that if you and then it's a good thing that if you like, if you feel like a part of you is missing, right? That's the other like, people talk about, oh, you know, without you, I feel like a part of me is missing, right? It's, it sounds romantic, and, you know, romantic and lovely, and like puppy dogs and rainbows and love hearts. And then, you know, there's the part of me that really understands attachment or relationships, like alarm bells are going, you know, like, you should not feel like the fact that you feel incomplete without someone. I'm like, you might want to, you know, just reflect on that a little bit.
Jacqueline
I mean, I feel really grateful that I have a relationship, then there's stability, and we don't have and it's fun also to lean sometimes into that new relationship energy and that yes, desperate longing.
Effy
Yes, I again, this came up. I you know, I was talking about this today and this came up I think the distinction is, is it the cake, or is it the icing? Right is that is like longing and like lustful, you know, desperate longing for one another? Is that the core of the relationship? Or is it this like, nice icing on the cake, meaning if your relationship is all about desperate longing, and you just can't seem to satisfy that, and it is like, you know, that is what defines your relationship? You know, we need to think about how sustainable is that over time and we only think about because it healthy, you know, but you have a healthy stable, you know, good communicative relationship and then you have these like fun lustful desperate for each other moments, then that's not that's that's a nice icing on the cake. It's like passion. And it's like, you know, titillation and older like, the, the nice thing is a spice. But if that is if your entire relationship is about desperately missing, and not feeling complete when the other person isn't there. I would recommend probably looking into it a little bit.
Jacqueline
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. I don't know if I've ever made that distinction before but that makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah. So then how do I you know, I've been thinking about this because I feel really grateful that now I'm often on the side of always being with someone so I'm not really feeling left out as much now. Sometimes. Now my wish is just that I am left out Many people, what am I by myself? But that's but I've been more and more mindful of the experience of the person on the other side when they are feeling left out. And so when you were in that position, what would you have wanted your partner to do? Or what, you know, what would feel good on the side of the person who is feeling left out? How can we support them in their struggle?
Effy
Yeah, I mean, I think I'm asking them as the best, you know, everyone's the boss of themselves. So, Rick, I think Rick is seeing the other person's seeing them and recognizing their emotions that they are, you know, feeling left out, and they're missing you. And sort of acknowledging that and saying, you know, I see that, I see that I see that you miss me, and, and if it feels, if it's the same for you to say, you know, I miss you, too, only only if it's authentic to you, and asking, like, how can I support you in this time? You know, what, what will help? What will support you, I do think, you know, I'm always on the side of the taking as much responsibility as you can for your own emotions, I have definitely shifted away from this idea that it's all you and only you, and nothing can support you, nothing can help you in the way that you feel, you know, I do think that we have an impact on on one another, you know, so I think sort of, say, having some requests around how things can feel better, is not, you know, I think is okay, you know, saying like, really nice, if you could text me, you know, first thing in the morning or before we go to bed or whatever, whatever is needed, you know, so asking maybe for as the person who is sort of is with somebody and is aware of a partner who's missing them, firstly, to recognize that that CD motion, secondly, asking them what they need, right? And then and then seeing if you can make that happen in some way? Yeah, I really, I think that, you know, the two, the two things that you can do on your side. And if you're on the other side, if you're on the flip side, kind of figuring out what is it that you need? You know, is it text messages? Is it phone calls, video calls? Is it you know, video messages, whatever that looks like, right, and making requests, and hopefully finding a common ground, how they could be met? And also just, you know, thinking about, well, how are the ways that you can feel better in yourself. So, you know, connecting with other people, sometimes, you know, the easiest thing to do is to the, the healthiest thing to do is, is to connect with other people, because when you're missing somebody is essentially indicating to a need for connection, right? We can agree on that. Right? So it's like, it's a need to feel included. And it's a need for connection, often. So how can you meet those needs somewhere else? Can you connect with some other people? Can you, um, you know, attend something that you feel included? Whatever the other strategies that can meet that need, sometimes we get stuck on a strategy, right? And we think that the only way that you're going to feel better is with a specific person. i Yes, sometimes that feels like that's the only way, I assure you, or at least I should say, I encourage you to at least try to meet it with somebody else that's meaningful and see what happens. Yeah. So reach out to your best friend reach out to a family member that you're close to. Just try somebody else and see what happened.
Jacqueline
You know, what I like about the strategies that you're saying, too, and you're helping me reframe this, I think, because I'm such a fixer, like someone's in pain in particular, someone I care about, I want to make it better. And you would even at now I'm saying that language, I think I wanted to fix it. You said earlier on to well, what can we do to make it better? So that doesn't mean that the pain is not going to exist? Right? It doesn't mean the missing is going to go away? Or that the disappointment that you're not involved as is it? How do you make it better? Yeah, so maybe it would you would feel most elated if you are with your partner. And that can happen. So what can you do to make it better? Can you hang out with friends? Can you go see a midnight movie on your own and take yourself out on a day? Like what can you do just to improve the situation in the mood and change it?
Effy
Yeah. And then the other piece of it, which I think is huge is to tolerate it. That that is okay. Like it's not the end of the world. And this too shall pass? Yes. We don't need to know everything. Exactly. And that you on both sides, like somebody who's you know, natural instinct is to fix and make things, you know, go away to tolerate the fact that your partner for the two nights or three nights is kind of, you know, sitting with the discomfort of your absence or sitting with the sadness or the, you know, the unpleasant feelings of your absence and you just like, you know, it's a bit of it. It's just like, that's how the cookie crumbles. You know, like, it's not the end of the world. It's not like someone's dead or absent forever. It's just a short period of time. And I think on both sides, and then if you're the person who's missing that, yeah, like missing people's a part of life and, you know, I'm sure you can think of, you know, 10 other people that you're missing, and that that you just have Just sort of tolerate some of these feelings, you know, and they will pass and there'll be another opportunity to see the other person. So there's some of it is tolerating and allowing the other person to just be in that place for sure.
Jacqueline
Yeah. And support. I mean, I like your idea of being mindful of what's happening on the other side, because I imagine if you're the one who is out and about, you may not be the one who's at home missing. And so can you proactively put yourself in the place of your partner? I remember one time, we were, you know, Loretta was going out and, and I felt, I was feeling some sort of way about it, I'm sure that I've communicated that I was feeling some sort of way about it. And that night, I got like chocolate covered roses delivered while she was out hanging out. And so like, that was a sweet thing. Like, she realized that I was in some sort of space. And just that gesture alone made me feel like important and included enough in her life, that I no longer like, I could go about my evening and enjoy being alone. Because I felt like, Oh, she remembered, yeah, and she actually at some point gave me like a little trinket, something that that's a quote that says something like, you know, don't be silly, I always remember something that reminds me that I'm always even if she's not texting, often or ever, like she's on my mind. And so I've been thinking about that when I, when I went on vacation this summer, for a week away, I knew that my partner was going to be missing me. And so what we decided to do was have a journal that we're gonna pass back and forth. And so I wrote some pages in it, and some letters and notes and poems, and then gave it to her before I left. And then while I was away, she wrote in it, and then I got it back. And so we tried to figure out, like, what are different traditions or different little activities that you can do to make each other feel included?
Effy
Absolutely. And it's, again, it's like, it's about, you know, when I talk a lot about relationship by design. These are the parts these are this is how you design a relationship, right? This is how you define and design a relationship, if you're defining your relationship, based on the chair at the family Christmas dinner, if that's how you define your relationship, then that will be your relationship. And if that chair isn't available, then you don't have anywhere to go. If you design your relationship, and if you define it in a way that is meaningful to you that no one can take it away. Right, that it's not reliant on some chair that's available on some table. But it's really the effort that you willing to put into the relationship with one partner to partner with whatever our partners in that is what you choose what defines a relationship, you choose your own traditions, your own language, how you communicate, then no one can really take take, take, you know, take that away from you, and you can't really be excluded because you're defining. Yes. Do you know what I mean? Yes. So if you're in this idea of like, I'm, you know, missing is okay. And having strategy, your strategy strategy is around it. So it doesn't feel so hurtful is great. And that's what defines a relationship.
Jacqueline
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense to me. And I think part of what I hear you say too, is also be mindful the person in front of you. So you building a particular relationship design with each individual person, and that's not going to look the same. And so for example, with my wife, I know that she may not miss me as much if you will. And so I don't feel as sensitive. I'm like, I'm gonna go to this place. She's like, Alright, have fun, be safe. And like, that's the extent of the conversation that we need to have. And then on the other side, I may pay more attention. Actually, now I'm saying out loud. That being said, I think when I decided to spend New Year's with my with my partner, I assumed that it would be fine. I was like, I'm gonna go here. And I assume normally, my wife is sleeping by 10 o'clock anyway, so she misses the ball drop, and it's not a big deal. And she seemed fine with it. But then at some point, I heard her say something like, Well, you know, I've got to think about if I don't want to think about as me being alone that day. So I'll think about like going on a date with myself. And just the fact that that thought process was happening was a window into Oh, it does bother you a little bit. And we're not going to be together that day. And so I think that was just a helpful awareness to me. We you and you've talked about us about this with us about how we can cache situations and people like we we program our brains to just be like, Oh, you like this? You don't like that? Great. Now I know you I don't need to think about it anymore. And in my mind, that was like, you don't care what I do. And where I go, we're super stable, we're good. And I just kept moving on and I wasn't paying attention. I don't think enough to the detail of Oh, was this sensitive? And could I have done this differently? And how do I approach that and so that little window in that comment gonna gave me an opening to realize that I need to be more thoughtful. They're not just cache her in my mind to think, Oh, she's just going to respond this way.
Effy
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's super important to see the growth and also evolution of people. And also realize like, as you're changing as your other relationships are changing your partner's reactions to you and your partners are likely to change you know that the time when maybe at the time when she wasn't bothered you and your partner were so close, right as you've grown closer, and now you spend a few nights over there, you kind of have my week back Right. So you actually now kind of live live with both partners separately. So there's like, you know, this is new. I don't think that I think when she wasn't bothered in her head, you were all you're both coming home to one another, right? You're no longer coming home to one another. You're half the time you're coming home to one another. Right?
Jacqueline
And now we're starting to split holidays like now. approach it. that's
Effy
Yeah. So like, the situation has changed. And before she wasn't bothered, and like in the session, she's like, well, we come home to each other. No longer, right. So, um, the chances are that she's like, well, you know, not feel so safe. Like, you know, I think at some level, I think on an intellectual level, she knows that this relationship is safe and stable, and you're, you know, you're, you're, you're into one another, and you've chosen to live together. I would wonder, though, at some level, and maybe a subconscious level, that the fact that you're no longer coming home to one another, like, as assumed was given, like, that has to have some effect, right, that that probably is going oh, you know, right.
Jacqueline
Yeah. Okay. And it's been actually, it's been a great opportunity. Because now we've defined or we've, we've been able to explore, if we're not together, most of the time, maybe then at some point is gonna be 5050. Maybe then at some point, I could spend more time with my partner and less time there, does that change in time impact, or reflect how we care about each other, and we realize it doesn't, and that it's going to ebb and flow and depending on where we are in our life. And so I just feel really grateful that these little moments that at some point, were filled with such hurt and pain and tension, because of our own egos getting in the way because our fears getting away, that those now are invitations for dialogue that actually make now make us feel more safe and more secure than we did before. So I'm happy we did the work. Yeah.
Effy
And also, there's different different relationship styles, right? So I know that you are wife and your partner are know each other. And they're somewhat similar with one another. And they spent some time together. Yeah. And yet, you don't have this kind of kitchen table, Polly are like really sort of hanging out with one another situation. So there's also this, like, the way that you're thinking about is dividing your time dividing your time, divide your time, right. And I'm just bringing it up, because that might not be the same for everyone who's listening.
Jacqueline
Yeah. And that's part of our goal, too, is to actually get to get be in one space and work towards that at some point. Yeah, but you're absolutely right, depending on the dynamic, and depending on the construct, then it's just like, a whole different environment of feelings.
Effy
Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, I, one of the reasons why I think I took the whole not being invited to the wedding thing so hard, it's because we had never encountered that before. Like, it was never, because we were so close all the time. And, you know, our invitations always came with a plus two, and we were or at least, like people understood that, that if you know that the chances are the three of us could turn up to things, you know, and we lived under the same roof. And when I started, you know, when I started dating my my other partner, my, my current partner, we would, the four of us would hang out, like spent evenings together. And there was like, physical affection, and all that was happening. So it's a very different dynamic than that, like, for me, I never really felt like I had to divide myself that we can just include people in you know, which is a different dynamic than if you feel like you have to like you that you are choosing to be with one person some of the time and be with the other person. Other. The other times, it's a different dynamic than Oh, which includes somebody else into our
Jacqueline
We have to do an episode on that, too. We have to talk about because I had so I like to a window into another world of AI. I'm not yet at the place of imagining what would be like to be affectionate with both people in the same space and what that would look like and yeah, so I'm fascinated when when people feel really good about that. And like, I'm not I'm not opposed to it. I'm just like, wow, how does that relate? Again, the levels of, of emotional maturity that that takes or comfort level or tolerance, like all of that fascinate me.
Effy
Yeah, I think. Yeah, I mean, it's all of those things, right. I I've never been on the other side of that I've never been in silo. None of my relationships have been the silo relationship, like site silo relationships that are happening. At the same time, most of my relationships have been very inclusive and like this gloop that everybody gets sort of by
Jacqueline
design by the people you were drawn to was an intentional did it just happen?
Effy
Ah, see all of the above. I think it's, um, I think some of it is just liking the idea of like, curating that space of just like, including more people. I think some of it is just being drawn to people her who also want the same thing, you know, and like, I think it's also like this idea of like, family like trying to try to maybe some at some subconscious level trying to build a like a family dynamic, you know, um, it doesn't mean to say I'm close to it. Like sometimes sometimes I just want to like, have a period of like a silo silo relationship that's just like separate from everything. You know, it's not that I'm close to that idea. It's just the prevailing ones have been mostly inclusive and sort of this idea of close poly poly dynamics. Yeah, but every now and then I'm like, I just want to like date this person on the side and like, don't tell anyone, right?
Jacqueline
Bring them out to everything. Right? They always don't need to be involved. So let me ask them, Do you have any particular either traditions or something with particular partners? So for example, has there ever because everyone has been together? Are there ever moments where there wants something to be either sacred or special between two people? Or three people or any dynamic like that?
Effy
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, with, with my, with my previous setup, with when, with my two partners, my partner's wife myself all living under the same roof, which is no longer when the last days of that we definitely had a tradition of brunch, like would get like family booty call the family brunch that least once a month that we'd get together and like, be home on a Sunday brunch, make brunch, hang out, chill together, catch up, and like spend that time together? That was definitely a sort of, like a thing that we did. And it felt it felt special to that relationship, because also everybody thought it was it felt normal, I think to anybody who heard we're like, whoa, what? You Oh, hang out. Yeah, I guess that's special is the part of her. And then I think I'm special rituals. In my head, I, personally, and I should just talk for myself, because my partners might have different ideas about this. In that setup that we're talking about, I feel like everything was really defined because I'm one of my partners and his wife, we're married. So that was defined in that. And then I, you know, I wasn't married to anyone. So that was also defined and like, worked with and then I was that I started living with my other partner who became my like, nesting partner. So the relationships felt defined in themselves and had their own dynamic and their boundaries that I didn't feel like we had to have specific rituals, though I do find myself developing language, different language in different relationships. Interesting. Yeah. Like, because I think different. Different relationships have different dynamics, right? And I like different sides of you. Right? And I like naming things, because then you can refer to it, you know, so, you know, there's own there's like own language, and jokes, and jokes and terminology, that really just makes sense to the other person, you know?
Jacqueline
Yeah.
Effy
And then anybody else harder? That'd be like, I have no idea what you just said. Yeah. So I think, for me, it's little things like, I don't need big gestures and say this relationship is this. I think, for me, it's being mindful about each relationship. And like, oh, this, this is the context. This is the relationship and this is everything about that relationship.
Jacqueline
That makes sense. Yeah, I think and with that, I think it's like an evolution maybe closer to that maybe not all the way. You know, at some point, I remember we would talk about where our secret spaces. So are there particular restaurants or places around New York that felt like they were sacred to us that we didn't want anyone else, our partners bring anyone else there. And my wife and I got married in Brooklyn, bridge, Park and the carousel. And I remember at some point, she referenced going to dinner there. And I was like, you can't go to dinner there. Because she's like an all of Brooklyn Bridge Park. I'm like all of Brooklyn Bridge Park. And then at some point, we like started to negotiate down to Okay, fine, not least spots, and we're live it and now it's like, Alright, maybe not the carousel where we got married. And so slowly, those things start to get stripped away. But I think that was part of just the fight to retain something that felt special or felt important or felt like it was just ours. And so, you know, my wife and I do have particular traditions that we do over New Years. And we had to talk about, okay, so we're not going to be together New Year's, and do that thing of, you know, reflecting on the year behind and naming the things we want to project into the year ahead. And so when and how are we going to do that? And so that was also new, like how do we renegotiate the things that are sacred to expand with our growth? And how do I build out some new traditions now with my partner, and what will those things look like? And so, I think for me, there is something that's lovely about tradition, or again, something sacred between within a relationship and still trying to figure out how to do something that feels authentic to that and makes room for other people. There's again, conversation.
Effy
A lot of conversation. And different people have different needs, you know, like I like as I I don't have a particular need for that. But if I had a partner who really felt like we need to have a place that is our sacred, I think I would honor that, you know, like, I would honor that thing. And we're very fortunate, and we live in New York City, and there's like, a million million open places that you can be and equally good time, you know, and if that bar, that restaurant that corner, that statue that, you know, Starbucks or whatever, when needed to be sacred, I honor that, you know, I'm not against that at all. Yeah, um, I particularly don't have any, any need for it. But if you do have a need for it, there's also there's nothing wrong with that. And I like that you're doing that in your relationships, because it's, it's meaningful, you know? And, you know, that's the design, like, that's your design, you're designing a relationship. You know, it's not just about who, when, when, who you know, who you're going to fuck when you know, but it's like, what is it going to look like? Like, what are the what are the what are the details? How are you going to communicate? How are you going to make it special? How are you going to the inside jokes? Yeah. And special spots? Yeah. Yeah. And that's what the design is. It's not just about, you know, monogamy non monogamy, but like, what is it going to look like?
Jacqueline
And you know, as we're, it makes me think then we started this conversation, talking about missing someone, and also being on the side of feeling left out. And maybe it's just this is a reminder for folks to think about those little things that make those relationships special and call those things out. Yeah, like send a text message and saying, you know, thinking about when we're at our favorite Starbucks, and whatever, we're like referencing that joke, something that just makes you feel like, no, no, I see you, I miss you. I'm still connected to you, even though I'm not with you right now. Right, right.
Effy
Just make Yeah, I think that's, that's, I think that's the thing that I hear a lot in my practice, people that the things that come up, like the common fears or needs aren't met, is to be seen, to be heard, and to be included. Those are the common themes of people who are trying to have more mindful more healthier relationships, and have open relationships, and then tackling this idea of like non monogamy. And whether you're tackling the non monogamy part or not, the common themes, as I said to come up is, you know, say them again, because I'm sure it resonates with people, it's that you want to be seen, you want to be heard, and you want to be included. And by the way, these are very human way. Exactly. Humanity. Exactly. That's, that's not just one or two, that is a human needs. And I think anything that you can do any dynamics that you can set up, that reinforces that is going to benefit, you know, and figuring out for ourselves
Jacqueline
Exactly what we need to do that we see ourselves, yes, and that we feel included and belonging in ourselves.
Effy
Yes, yes. And if a part of that means that you're making some requests from people to do things, then you can do that. But until you figure it out for yourself, and you see those things for yourself, and make some requests and give some instructions on how they, how other people can support you. It's, you know, it's not gonna work.
Jacqueline
We did the mono poly mismatch session with Dr. Les chef, and she gave the example of the swimming pool on the crack in the pool, and said that if your goal if love, for example, is the water that you fill into the pool, if your pool has a crack in it, you're gonna keep filling it water filling or filling, but it's never going to feel full, and you have to mend the crack first in order to feel full. And that analogy always stuck with me because I thought about that, then if you are, if there is some part of you that it needs healing, and you're desperately trying to get that healing via the love and attention and affection and adoration time of someone else, you're just going to keep needing it and eating it. And so welcoming these opportunities of being on your own to have that sense of healing, so that when you get that you feel full, I think it's part of our work.
Effy
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I would again, for people who are feeling like if if you feeling chronically, you're missing people, and you're chronically feeling left out, I would recommend a couple of things, one, just pause for a second and look at the rest of your life quickly. And see if you if that part of you that feels left out or chronically left down currently missing people shows up in any other parts of your life in groups, do you feel left out at work? Do you feel left out within your family? Do you feel left out within your social circle? So um, so just look across your life and see if that part of you gets activated and other places? If it does, the chances are there is a part of you that believes that regardless that, that there's a belief that's that's somehow rooted probably sometime in childhood, probably sometime school or home, that you you, you're holding on to a belief that you don't belong, that you're not going to be included that you're going to be you're going to be excluded. So it's probably at that level, right?
Jacqueline
And when you have that story in your head, you start to search for evidence. So then you know I'm going to feel left out and then as soon as It's something close to it happens. Like, there it goes again, right? It's it's always happening to
Effy
Exactly, exactly, exactly. So I think even so this time of year is particularly tender for sure. Because it is a time of year that we gather in groups and and in gathering groups, we are biologically we are evolutionarily drawn to being gross safety in numbers, we are pack animals, everything about humanity, points to the fact that we need to be in groups, right? So this time of year, when people are gathering groups in significant ways, it is going to be tender for those who, who who have that part of them that believes that they're not gonna they don't belong, right? Or that they are going to be left out. So PSA to everyone, it is tender. So be kind to yourself, and be kind to people around you, for sure.
Jacqueline
And then, you know, makes me think, Well, you certainly were talking about this as it turns to romantic partnerships. But think about grandparents and friends and cousins, and who are the people in your lives over the holidays that may be feeling left out or missing or lonely? And can we do the same? Can we extend the same graciousness of, of time and effort and energy? And seeing people
Effy
For sure, yeah, I wouldn't even take it. And I say this periodically. And when some people do it, and some people don't. And it's one of those things, either you do it or you don't. But volunteer. Yeah, volunteer makes a huge difference. Great suggestion. It really does is incredible. The amount of like, you feel purpose, you feel like you're doing something you're connecting with people as vulnerable. It's intimate. I really can't, especially this time of year. I mean, all year round, for sure. But especially this time of year, volunteer, it makes a huge difference. I have one, you know, I lived around the world for a long time. And I've periodically my volunteer to various things. When I moved to New York, I volunteered on a suicide hotline for many, many months. It is a it's a you know, it's an amazing thing. If you're feeling down about yourself, if you're struggling with things, just give that like, three, four hours a week to volunteer at something. It will only do good things
Jacqueline
It'll contextualize your situation. is your gratitude. I agree. The other thing to think about actually that triggered for me is to be around other people, but also be around animals. You know, my partner husband is a homebody so likes to be alone and but sometimes feels like, you know, the void of spending time. And it started upsetting. And just being around all these dogs all the time makes her so happy.
Effy
Sure. Yeah. No, I Yeah, definitely. I am a big animal lover, and I just got a puppy myself. It's very exciting. I'm sure that we many stories will share about the puppy. But yeah, just all these things, it's again, going back to this idea that we get attached to a strategy to meet a specific needs. So we have a need to belong, we have a need to be included, we have a need to connect. Those are very human needs. And we sometimes get stuck on the strategy, we get stuck on the person, situation time, we have to be with this person at Christmas at that table. That is not that is just being stuck to a strategy. It is you know, your need is real. Your strategy needs flexibility, right?
Jacqueline
Why? Because it was rooted in external expectation that that means something if I'm not there, and then that triggers your internal fear and doubt around than who I am. And what does that mean and to your point that if you have the ability to go into your wise mind, as you say, and really say, that's an external expectation, or that's just my fear of being triggered, that's not the reality of the situation. And I can actually craft what I want this to be as opposed to feel like I'm a victim to the situation and take ownership of it.
Effy
For sure. Yeah, define it, define it for yourself, design it, define it, um, you know, define what connection looks like and inclusion and family and romance and passion, like those are all words that you can assign to things you know, they're not defined, and they're different for different people just
Jacqueline
you get to be more creative. So if you define the needs that you have, and you decide maybe the the traditional strategies are not available to you, then now you get to figure out what you want to do. Do you guys want to write letters to each other, like quill pen? Send sexy videos back and like what's the thing that you can create that actually is just for you?
Effy
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think what a better time of year to start on that stuff. You know, there's already built an idea of a tradition in this this time of year and it's funny how like many religions many beliefs would have come to this time of the year as like you know, it's both to do with seasons changing to with Christmas and Hanukkah and end of the year so it's like the time of the year is about tradition, beginnings and ends of things and special times. So yeah, it doesn't have to be this one thing but just use this time of year to come up with the things that are meaningful to you. Yeah.
Jacqueline
And it's okay to miss people Fe is going away for a month and FE I will miss you and I will miss you. And we'll have to come up we're gonna have to come up with some traditions for the New Year sensing. So I'm sort of New Year curious Fox ritual for ourselves.
Effy
I like that idea. I like that idea.
Jacqueline
I think has to do with movement and maybe five rhythms.
Effy
Always, always, the answer for me is always movement and virulence. But, um, but I do think that we should start the next year and make sure that we do some movement and some dance as a part of our art. Let's continue. Yeah, let's go dancing in the new year. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Jacqueline
And then, so if you maybe we'll we'll send out the message. We'll let people know where we are. And they can come dancing with us.
Effy
Yes, if you're in your city, probably Brooklyn somewhere.
Jacqueline
If you want to know where we are at any given point, you should be following us on Facebook and Instagram. Absolutely. We are curious boxes, you can also find our Patreon. We are curious foxes, and you can support the work that we're doing, you can check out all of our episodes that we have. So this is number 12 of the year. This is our first year and we're thrilled about it. So if you have enjoyed please rate and review and share our podcast and make sure that you let us know what you're thinking. Let us know what you want for the new year we're talking about and almost done with our 2020 planning. So share your ideas with us rate review, share the podcast follow us on Facebook and Instagram. We are curious boxes, find us on Patreon. And then check out our next episode in January.
Effy
Yeah and happy holidays and stay curious friends curious.
Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind. And we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious, curious curious, thank you. Take care and stay curious.
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