Ep 121: Identity Formation, Pride and the Law with Dr. Ariana Moran and Maxx Fenning
Art by @katarina_samohin
As Pride month comes to an end, we were curious: What keeps us from feeling proud of our gender or orientation? How does the politicalization of our gender and orientation impact the way we feel about ourselves? How can we create spaces - within ourselves and within our homes and communities - where our identity as LGBTQ folk can be nurtured?
In this episode, Effy and Jacqueline speak with Dr. Ariana Moran and Maxx Fenning about identity formation, internal and external producers of shame and fear about our identity, and what we can do to help ourselves and others embrace the full expression of who we are.
Dr. Ariana Moran is a clinical psychologist and the founder and owner of Elemental Psychology PLLC, based in Brooklyn, New York. Her work in the therapy room is focused on helping her clients align with the truest versions of themselves by healing the relationship to self and focusing on the intersections and integration of one’s multiple identities. She practices from a holistic, fundamentally nonjudgmental, feminist, and nonhierarchical framework that encourages her clients to feel empowered in their own agency. Ariana has additional specialization areas in trauma, climate anxiety/ ecotherapy, life transitions, mood disorders, and relationships.
To find more about Dr. Ariana Moran, visit elementalpsych.com.
Maxx Fenning is the founder and President of PRISM FL Inc, an LGBT nonprofit based in South Florida. Through PRISM FL, Maxx works to expand access to LGBT-inclusive education and sexual health resources for youth in the community. He is a queer educator on social media who regularly posts content and hosts live classes on LGBT history, gender and sexuality, and sexual health.
To find out more about Maxx Fenning and Prism, go to @maxxfenning and @prismfl on TikTok and Instagram, and visit PRISMFL.org
To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla on Instagram.
If you have a question that you would like to explore on the show, reach out to us and we may answer your question on one of our upcoming episodes. Leave us a voicemail at 646-450-9079 or email us at listening@wearecuriousfoxes.com
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TRANSCRIPT:
Ariana
I always sort of start way before that, which is healing the relationship with the self as really being the primary focus and the foundation from which then yes, we can treat your anxiety we can treat your stress and your trauma. But if you don't have a good relationship with yourself, then you will never be able to have mental health in general, or overall well being or treat any of the other things that you might be coming to therapy for.
Effy
Welcome to the Curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.
Jacqueline
And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And in our last pride month episode, we want to talk about what keeps us from feeling proud of our gender orientation, and what we can do to create space for us and others to live into the full expression of who we are. And to have this layered conversation about what helps us form our identity and what contributes to us feeling proud or ashamed of who we are. We spoke with two guests, one to talk us through the internal journey of identity formation.
Arianna
So my name is Ariana Moran, and I use she and her pronouns and I am a queer identified clinical psychologist living and working in Brooklyn, New York,
Jacqueline
and another to talk about the external factors that suppress or amplify our full expression as queer folks.
Maxx
I'm Max Fenning. I am the founder and president of PRISM and we're an LGBT nonprofit that works to expand access to LGBT inclusive education and sexual health resources for young people in South Florida.
Effy
Depending on the country, or the state that you live in the community that you're a part of, or the home that you are raised in, it may not be so easy to feel proud of being lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, queer, or any of the beautiful colors of the rainbow. It takes a nurturing environment to encourage authenticity, and a big Brave Heart to step into that authenticity day in day out. It's this delicate balance between our external world and our internal world that helps us form and feel proud of our identity.
Jacqueline
So let's talk about the early formation. Much of Dr. Ariana Moran's work focuses on identity, she works with people who are in the process of discovering new or unrecognized parts of themselves, particularly related to their gender orientation. As her work developed, she found that the building blocks of our identity are formed during childhood, and then evolve over time.
Arianna
I actually started in graduate school, specializing in working with transgender youth through the work of Dr. Laura Edwards leaper, who was a very close mentor and professor of mine. And so that was sort of an early specialization area. And I sort of started to learn how to work with gender identity in the therapy room and gender assessment with trans teens. And then when I moved to New York, for my postdoc, and I started just working on you know, taking a deep dive into like being a therapist as a whole psychotherapy, not not specific to gender, then I sort of started to understand what my style was how I could bring myself into the room as a therapist, how I could really embrace and embody how I look at the world. And I just realized that through this work with my clients, gender, and sexuality and romantic attraction, these are facets of identity. But really the core is identity itself, who we are and the fact that it's multifaceted, and it's contradictory. And it's fluid, and it's dynamic. And I sort of started to realize like, oh my gosh, that's what I care about the most is helping people come into their most authentic expression of self, and being able to understand who am I in the world? How do I take up space? How does it feel to inhabit my own skin? And then with that, you can start to understand the more nuanced facets, you know of marginalized identities or other identities.
Jacqueline Misla
I love the adjectives that you used around conflicting and fluid and because that's part of the conversation that we've been having around particularly around labels, and how labels tend to put us in a particular place and own a box. And can we get in them? Can we get out of them? Can we leverage them for what they are, but then pull in different pieces. And so in the the formation of identity and looking at what is even possible internally and externally. I'm wondering if you can walk us through that process? What does identity formation look like?
Arianna
Yeah, I love starting here and I'm gonna do this psychologist cliche, and it really does start with the early years but we all form an identity very early on base. Styne cultural expectations and where we come from and the belief systems of our families of origin. And I think that this is one of the biggest tragedies that we do to our young people, as we have this really deeply ingrained social conditioning from an early age that there's a right or wrong way to be in the world. And we use this very moral language about you are a good person, if this you are a bad person, if this. And so from that process, I think that children form, you know, their self concept, which means their relationship with themselves. And I think that that relationship to self becomes part of your identity. So for example, you know, if your needs were not met during childhood, you might have formed a belief about yourself that you're not lovable, or that you're not worthy of care. And then that becomes a part of something that you identify with. And then that shows up as an adult everywhere in all of your relationships and your work. And, you know, it just sort of trickled down from there. So that's a little bit just about how identity formation is formed in general. But then as we grow and have life experiences, identities evolve over time, you know, based on personality factors and likes, dislikes, formative relationships, exposure to new ways of thinking. So I think a lot of times identity means unlearning what you were taught when you were little, I think that's a primary part of identity formation.
Effy
Thinking about unlearning, as a part of the identity formation was eye opening. And we want to dig a little deeper. We know that gender and sexual orientation are essential parts of who we are, they are hard coded into our operating system, if you will. And then there's new code that gets written based on our experiences and our social influences. So we were curious, when we turn inward to figure out who we are, how can we pass apart? What is essentially us? And what is learned or internalized?
Arianna
Yeah, it's such a good question, because I think a lot of what happens is that internal operating system gets repressed. And so we have these parts of ourselves that are part of our code that we don't end up knowing about or embracing or accepting. One of the biggest pieces of this question is that the parts of our identity code that are there and that are unusable, are the ones that end up being sort of repressed or denied so often. And I think that in place of that, we end up leaning into these other parts of the identity that are more formed based on life experiences, or relationships that are more acceptable, that aren't any less true or authentic, but that sometimes are the ones that we spend more time cultivating. Because that means that we're acceptable to other people. So I'm talking about things like what you do for work, or maybe in a relationship, like what you like in the bedroom based on what your partner's preferences are like things that evolve based on you plus another person or plus an external factor. And then I think that other work that deeper work, the more vulnerable war comes from, on repressing an underlying those parts of that code, you know, your gender identity, or sexual orientation, your romantic attraction, and coming to really accept those over time as parts of yourself that can't change and they are really a core part of who you
Jacqueline
are. As Ralph Waldo Emerson said, to be yourself in a world that constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. For you know, this better than max Fanning, the founder of prism, a nonprofit whose mission is to expand access to LGBTQ inclusive education, and sexual health resources for young people in South Florida. Max believes that the ability to recognize accept and live into one's identity, gender and orientation is made possible through representation, language, and safe spaces.
Maxx
They know that there's this very cliche term of representation matters. But that's real. I think that when you see your own experiences or feelings embodied in someone else, and allow yourself to see that from an external point of view, that in and of itself is so so so impactful for queer people, and they think that being able to have those examples means so much in defining our identity. And I also think that part of that does come about from having a safe space and also having language and I think that that's the big thing is, you know, we have such a wide diversity of gender and a wide diversity of sexual orientation. And for so many people, they don't have language to explain their experiences with gender, sex, or romantic attraction. And so being able to have that sort of education to to know how to like put words to those experiences is also so impactful for people. And then obviously, it's having a safe space, right. So I think that being able to explore your gender identity and explore your sexual orientation safely and in a space where you feel like you can do so, you know, openly and freely, it is also so important for for that aspect of self discovery. And so I think that when we're talking about safe spaces, there are two things to know right? So it's it's do we have shared experiences that are really going to connect us and as having that perspective, but also how can we unite multiple perspectives into a shared goal right, the experience Is the LGBT community what they have through lines are varied, right? We're not a monolith. And so it's how do we connect each other through not just your shared experiences, but also a shared goal to be able to find that sense of community and that sense of purpose. And so I think that that in and of itself is so impactful. And that can vary between so many things. It can be fighting against anti LGBT legislation, or it could just be having a safe space where people can feel heard. And then I think the other thing to say spaces right is listening, especially when we have these this diversity of experiences across race, across gender across sexual orientation, are we able to listen to other people and other people's lived experiences and understand that, again, we're not a monolith, and they're not going to be necessarily be reflective of our own experiences, they're going to provide this new insight.
Unknown Speaker
In the absence of
Effy
or complement to having a community or a home that nurtures your identity as a queer person, therapy often becomes that space. As a therapist specializing in gender identity and sexual orientation. Ariana has created an environment where people can find support, guidance, understanding and empathy as they seek their inner truth. And while she hopes that the therapeutic container could be a place for the exploration, she believes that true healing comes from the work that we do within our internal spaces, our relationship with ourselves.
Arianna
It's a little bit ironic and a little bit sad. I think that people come to therapy with these ideas, these grandiose ideas of what they want to work on, and that they want to completely get rid of anxiety or that they want to never have stress or that they want to be a whole new different person. And I think of course, those are really beautiful goals to have. But I always sort of start way before that, which is healing the relationship with the self as really being the primary focus and the foundation from which then yes, we can treat your anxiety, we can treat your stress and your trauma. But if you don't have a good relationship with yourself, then you will never be able to have mental health in general, or overall well being or treat any of the other things that you might be coming to therapy for. So I always try to sort of manage expectations with clients that this therapy process requires a lot of internal looking. And it requires you to be willing and vulnerable to look at yourself and to be able to sort of sit with the feelings that come up when we really sit with yourself as a whole. And that's this whole other chapter of therapy is how to regulate and manage the emotional experience and other baggage that comes with really being able to look at yourself.
Effy
I think we were asking to the idea of like, what does the road to understanding one's identity look like? Right? So what I'm hearing from you is like, the first step, is something that we actually feel very strongly on this podcast and Know thyself, right? That's kind of know thyself. I also feel strongly about this idea that there's so much talk in our noise about like, love yourself, right? There's a lot of encouragement of, you must love yourself. And I think where we probably need to start with really being able to tolerate ourselves first and foremost. And sort of once we are able to get to know ourselves and get to a place where we can tolerate ourselves something from that we can look towards creating something or stepping into our identity, stepping into our wholeness. I think that's what I'm hearing from you.
Arianna
Yeah, exactly. I could not agree more, I love that word tolerate because I think that there's a lot of, well meaning language around right now about self love. And I think that the intention is great. But you really can't go from self hatred to self love overnight, I mean, you just will never be able to do that. And I think a lot of the process of therapy is sort of helping people like, have realistic expectations of themselves, that we're not really expecting you, you don't have to embrace all of the parts of yourself, you know, you just have to accept that they're there and do not deny them is really what's important. And the process of doing that means I think you have to look at how you move through the world. And like how you show up in relationships, and really start to sort of pay close attention to like, where your reactions coming from, and what are they and what memories and what sort of, like, formative experiences. And I think there's so many pieces that come into, like figuring out the self awareness. And then once you're there, it requires this like sitting with and being with whatever it is you've unearthed. And again, you don't have to love it, you know, you just have to acknowledge that it's a part of you, and that that's okay. Gender identity, sexuality there, they have been so marginalized in the self, it's been much more of a fight, you know, to be able to understand and accept those parts of who we are, I think for everyone who does identify from within those communities. So I'm thinking about some of the people that I work with feel like they have to exist in more traditional ways in certain spaces, like a lot of people feel a lot of pressure, you know, to exist, or to present, you know, for example, on the gender binary even if internally, they don't actually really identify by that way, they might be a little more fluid, or they might be a little more non binary. But in this space, this specific space, they feel like the only way they're going to be accepted is if they're presenting on the binary. I'm thinking of a couple of teenagers I work with who have this beautiful, colorful sort of gender expansive way of being in the world. And oftentimes, when they go to school, or when they're home with their parents, they feel like they have to wear something specific, or they have to speak in a specific way. Or maybe they use, you know, they ng pronouns, but they have to sort of only use D pronouns in certain spaces. And so I think that's really hard, because they're basically being asked by society to give up this part of themselves in order to exist in this one specific space. And it creates a lot of internal tension. And a lot of the work in therapy is helping people understand that you're doing these things, not to deny yourself, but because this is maybe the way that you know how to be safe. And maybe this is self protective, and it's adaptable, and it's flexible. And it doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong, you're basically doing exactly what the situation is asking of you. And that's sort of a cognitive and emotional flexibility. That's a skill, it's a strength. But it doesn't mean that you're not who you are at the end of the day. And if you know that internally, and you feel grounded and rooted in that identity, then that's what's really important. That's what matters.
Jacqueline
One of the ways in which our society pressures people into suppressing parts of themselves to fit in is through shame. Shame is a force that starts from the outside, and then creeps its way inside, creating internal conflict, anxiety, and depression.
Arianna
And think shame is an example of both external and internal, that you are actively being shamed by people in your life or systems. And then you're also internally shaming yourself for having a different gender identity or sexual orientation or romantic attraction. Think also externally, there's lack of representation as a huge one lack of exposure to people who think like you, people who identify like you, this relationship to self that I've been talking about is one of the biggest that if you have a poor relationship with yourself, that's going to be a huge barrier. And that's connected to having poor mental health. Like if you have, you know, anxiety, depression or trauma, you're going to have a lot of mental noise or emotional noise, it's going to get in the way of you being able to really operate from a place of authentic self. And then I think also, there's things like traumatic experiences that really shaped us. And one other thing that I can think about is being in limiting relationships with other people and systems actually, to people who sort of don't support or don't accept or don't uplift certain parts of your identity, people might be motivated then to deny or repressed parts of themselves in order to preserve the relationship or in order to make someone else happy, or to fit into this specific system. And we really have to be surrounded with people who are curious and uplifting and systems that represent us and acknowledge us.
Effy
Historically, in the US and elsewhere, systems have not been designed to represent or acknowledged those in the minorities, including LGBTQ people. Currently, there are efforts across multiple countries to undo and undermine any progress that has been made towards equitable representation. In the US, there has recently been legislation that has made global news,
Maxx
the one that made headlines that some listeners might be might have heard rumblings of, is the don't say gay Well, it's it's HB 1557, parental rights and education, more commonly known as the don't say, gay bill. And essentially what it aims to do is prohibit the discussion of gender identity or sexual orientation and classroom instruction for K through three or at I gotta put this or part of there a way that is an age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students according to see standards and standards don't say what is or is not age appropriate for students, we don't really know it's super vague. And then it gives parents the opportunity to sue teachers, if they think that something violates this bill. And again, it's so vague that I think does, it creates this environment where teachers aren't going to want to talk about anything related to the LGBT community for fear that a parent is going to get their panties in a twist and decide to sue, we know that there are there are parents in Florida who thinks that talking about anything related to the LGBT community talking about the Stonewall riots, just like talking about marriage equality, is inherently inappropriate for like a 17 year old, so and they have every right to sue a teacher at that point. So what teachers gonna want to open themselves up to that. So it creates this really, really hostile environment for queer people for the discussion of people in schools, even in like, higher grade levels, not to mention that these more like formative foundational years of of a kid's life,
Jacqueline Misla
I imagine is complicated for queer teachers. Because if you have a picture of yourself and your partner up or if you are trans or gender non conforming and use different pronouns, like even just being now possibly could get you sued. And so just that feeling In that space, yeah,
Maxx
yeah, exactly. And that's what's so scary about this is like, it's so vague. It's like a, it's 163 lines of the most vague bullshit I've ever seen, especially someone who like is in the nonprofit sphere now and like has the right policies and like I'm very, very big on like, clarity, right? Like making sure like, everything's defined like everyone's on the same page. There's no gray area. So reading this, I was like, Y'all are y'all do this for a living? Like, yeah, right. This was just like, super living. And this is what you came up with. But it's on purpose.
Effy
Right? intentionally vague. Yeah, it's clearly intentionally vague.
Maxx
And that's what's so scary about this legislation and about and about legislation like this is that's on purpose. They want to create a environment of fear and an environment where we're scared about like whether or not we can talk about this for the fear of like one parent deciding that they don't like gay people, essentially, or don't like trans people.
Effy
I think it also has impact beyond right, because the schools are liable for it. Therefore, it's impacting libraries, books that are available language, you know, even doing things like family trees, right? Because it's inevitable that I think the statistics are something crazy, like every classroom in the US has at least one one set of gay parents or something like that. Obviously, you live in, you know, cities, you have a lot more than that. But statistically speaking, so even if you were doing a basic exercise in like, who your parents like, tell us about your family. At some point, some kid is gonna talk about mom and mom or dad and dad, you know? So it's not just, it's so insidious, and has such deep roots into everything else into the education system. It obviously is very Orwellian.
Maxx
Yeah. And the other fear, right is on top of that, we now have a book betting bill actually went to the Miami Dade school board meeting a month and a half ago, they originally had super, super comprehensive sex ed, it was three R's, curriculum rights, respect, responsibility. And it's like an online guide, essentially, for teachers to use. And they were getting rid of a and replacing it with the textbook, which we don't love sucks out of textbooks, you can't replace like it's hard to they're hard to replace, you can't update them. And we talked about language, right. And you can't update the language of a textbook until you like buy a whole new one. And that's expensive. So yeah, I went there waited 12 hours to say my views. And they had removed this section on gender identity and sexual orientation. Even though the bill hadn't gone into effect. Yet, this was like a month after the don't take a bill was like signed into law. And this was, you know, middle school in high school, this wasn't even K through three. So this just goes to show how this applies, you know, sort of beyond, you know, elementary school. That's even scarier, as well as the impact that this has sort of outside of the like most direct language of the bill. And now what they're trying to do is even with that, even with, you know, removing the sections, they had 300 parents who signed a petition to repeal this textbook, even though it had they haven't even started using it yet, but they're given access to it if they approve it. And so because of this now, this book, bedding bill on top of it and say Gable, on top of the stop woke act, you create this environment where it becomes so so, so easy for this small minut minority of like bigoted parents to basically control everyone else's education.
Jacqueline Misla
I also want to call out the fact that in the beginning, you know, we said, Well, you're in Florida. So you have a lot to say about this, right. But it's not just Florida. I want to note that because I think that folks in the rest of the country in the rest of the world can look and say, Wow, that's wild, as if it's over there. And just noting, you know, shortly thereafter in Florida, there's Alabama, there's Ohio, there's Louisiana, there's Tennessee, there's Texas, like then also the countries around the world that look to the United States to set direction and precedent are also learning from this. And so I I just I want to get your thoughts on that. That it's this is not just about Florida,
Maxx
Republicans use each other as templates. And that's allows this sort of legislation to spread so far and wide, because they see bigotry. And they're they're like that was such a good example, high five rather, and decides to pass the same legislation. You see this with things like the abortion ban, how those things pick up steam, and you see that with this and with the don't say cable, and what's interesting is the ways in which we talk about LGBT inclusive education, right, like that goes beyond sex. And one of the things that that delves into rights, LGBT history, and as someone who educates an LGBT history, one of the biggest pieces of context that I had going into this fight and understanding this fight is someone who's been like in this educator space for you know, two three years now are no formal helmet laws, which is legislation that varying Language prevents the promotion of a homosexual lifestyle, so to speak. It's generally the language that they like to use. These really came out in the peak of the AIDS epidemic when there's a lot of fear surrounding homosexuality. And so states started passing these these quote unquote no promo Homer laws to limit these discussions in schools. For the two decades to three decades since we've been slowly repealing these laws like these have been like on their way out, they were seen as like these really archaic things that are that are relics of the past. So when we saw this, when you look at it, and you're like, that's an Oprah Mohamed Salah you like you immediately see it, and you see the how that's reflected in that. And that's what we talked about, like when we talk about history, we say the reason that we teach history is so that we don't repeat the mistakes of the past. Because these were mistakes, like, we had pretty much established that these were mistakes. These are things that even in these, like Southern like Deep South states that were repealing these laws, and they found a way to reframe the language, you know, they took out the word lifestyle and things like that. And they found ways to reframe the language in a way that made what is quite literally a no promo Houma la more palatable to the general public. And so that's the thing where we when we talk about history, and why we need LGBT inclusive education, because that immediately gave context for to me it gave context to everyone else in the spaces of how harmful this this would be. And we're already seeing that even though it hasn't even, you know, gotten to effect until until July first.
Jacqueline
I want to also note that even though right now, we're talking about sex education in the don't say gay bill, this is not about sex education.
Effy
It's not about sex. education as a whole. Right?
Maxx
Right. And that's the thing that that also becomes so scary, is the ways in which we sexualized LGBT people. That's what's so what's so harmful is the ways in which our experiences as queer people are diluted into just what we do under the covers what we do what we do in the bedroom, which those are, those are big parts of anyone's life, but they're not the only part of our lives. What also becomes scary is the ways in which this perception that LGBT inclusive education is you know, here's a vocab list with with a list of Neo pronouns. And here's, here's a list of genders and sexualities that you have to memorize. And also here's how to have gay sex, like, here's how to do it, or something like that. And that's like, that's not what else do we do inclusive education is like, it's our, it's our history, it's our community, like goes so far beyond that, and also in a much broader sense than memorizing vocab. And that's what people I think don't understand about about that. I
Jacqueline Misla
am wondering about what the impact looks like then for someone for a kid who is in that space, right? Because first, I imagine it's going to have an impact on your ability to learn, because there's constant distraction around who you are. And understanding that who you are is not represented in that space. I imagine it's going to have an impact at home, with your relationships and what you learn about partnership and relationship and love based on what your experience in the home I imagine it's going to create senses of shame. And so in the work that you do with with young people, what are you seeing about how these types of laws are impacting people on the individual
Maxx
level? I think it comes down once again to fear unfortunately. And that fear has as a real place in reality is what's even what's even scarier. I think one of the most harmful and and tragic turn of events beyond this bill, in the process of fighting, it was when Christina Pasha, who's run the Diablo sanitizes press secretary tweeted out the day before the full Senate vote that it would be more accurate to call this an anti grooming bill and that anyone who opposes this bill is a groomer or supports the grooming of children that are five to eight years old. And that's so harmful. I mean, gay people have been getting called groomers for, you know, since the dawn of time, probably, and to see that resurface as sort of a mainstream talking point. And really, it's become a mainstream talking point, which is what's even scarier. And I think that that, again, it comes down to language and the ways in which the words that we use impact the community. I mean, I mean, as someone who's, you know, unfortunately, experience grooming and things like that a lot firsthand. It's really, really harmful when you have hundreds of people in your Tiktok comments that are calling your groomer.
Jacqueline
Yeah, sorry about that.
Effy
It doesn't hurt. Actually, I've recently had a conversation with a client who is in a relatively longer term relationship with a partner who is not out to their kids in an effort to protect the kids. And we had to have a serious conversation around how we don't need to protect children from gay people. And even though she herself identifies as bisexual and is with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, they keep you know, they sleep in separate rooms when the kids thing over they've been keeping this from them for For years, and the conversation was around how they probably know, but the fact that you're trying to hide it from them is making them feel that what you're doing is wrong, even though and reinforcing the message they might be getting that it is wrong. So the idea that we need to somehow protect children from gay people is so prevalent.
Jacqueline
Arianna believes that political causation of identity reinforces that it is not safe to be one's authentic self.
Arianna
That's so unfair, like there's something that's so cosmically wrong, you know, about this process that we're seeing. And, generally speaking, having your identity being so politicized does one of two things, it either sort of activates you, or it ends up repressing you even further. And so I think for a lot of people who live in places where it's really politically not safe to be who they are, that's gonna lead to many, many more years, potentially, of of barriers of not being able to step into who you are, and not being able to figure it out. Because your identity is sort of it's broadly put on display for people who don't identify that way to pick it apart and to comment on it and to write it into laws. And, and that process is absolutely destructive to being able to for you personally, to figure out really who you are, and what's okay, identity formation is so vulnerable, and it's fragile. And as people grow, and they see this sort of process reflected in the world, I think that that's going to be this. It's a huge deterrent, you know, why would I spend all of this time figuring out this part of myself if I'm just going to be discriminated, or if it's not going to be safe. And so maybe I'll focus on these other parts of who I am, because that's safer. That's sort of the one side of it, but then the other people get really activated, it sort of is this like, lighting a fire lighting this passion, which again, just is fair, and I think a lot of people will say, I turn into an activist, because of my identity, I never wanted to be this, this isn't who I am. But like I have to me because I have no choice because I'm fighting for myself.
Effy
In addition to working against systems of oppression, there's personal work to be done around acceptance.
Arianna
And I actually often will tell people, that sometimes the process towards accepting yourself starts actually with accepting other people first, because oftentimes, that's more accessible. You can love in someone else, what you hate in your own self. And that's just kind of this quirk, I think of people, you have to understand, really the benefits of accepting other people tolerating other people's identities that might differ from yours, because it's amazing what happens, right? Like, as soon as you accept this identity, and someone else who you love, then this unfolds, you know, all of a sudden, you have higher capacity for empathy, you have greater perspective on the world, you have a greater sense of possibility, the way that you think about things and see things as expanded. And all of that is because someone who you love has an identity that might be different from yours, or someone you care about. And so I think by accepting that, those are the outcomes. But the barriers to being able to do that are often because people have conditioned biases we all do, it's really normal. And it's not something to be ashamed of, but it's something to be aware of. And with that awareness comes the responsibility to then challenge your own harmful or misinformed thinking. And then we can't say that without also recognizing that people come from a place of fear. More often than not, if you don't accept someone else's identity, that usually means that you're afraid of the unknown, you're afraid of safety concerns, you're afraid of vulnerability, you're used to thinking like the crowd instead of as an individual. And so really exposing yourself to the things that you're afraid of. And that really is an internal process for the purpose of being able to accept those around us and support those around us.
Effy
Fascinating. I also just picked up on what you're saying about getting a sense of ourselves through other people. I think that's, that's super interesting. And I do agree with you that sometimes you can find those things that you don't like about yourself and others, and then somehow be fascinated and dared by that. Do you also find that the things that people are most critical about are the people sometimes also show the things that are most critical about themselves? And then there's also some insight as well.
Arianna
Yeah, 100% It's this kind of really uncomfortable and sort of ironic process of like paying attention to your own reactions to like things that you see in other people. And I don't think that this is true for everyone. But I do think it's true for a lot of people that what you don't like in someone else is something that you don't like in yourself, and it can really be a mirror and think that there's this process of are you willing to peel back those layers of your own reactions and your own emotions, and maybe accept or acknowledge that there's a part of you that is represented in this other person that you never got the chance or the opportunity to really learn about or discover. Each layer like has this function. And so we have to look at the function of the layers like, why are the parts of ourselves buried? Where are they buried? Why are they buried? And what does each layer do for us, maybe it had to be there for self protective reasons or safety reasons. But when you start to become a fully formed and safe person moving throughout the world, then you have this opportunity to look at what you might not like, and others might actually be something that needs a little more nourishment within yourself.
Jacqueline
What ties together our internal identity work, and the work of building systems that recognize who we are as whole people? Is curiosity. Being willing to peel back the layers and ask questions within yourself and within our society?
Arianna
What can we do to uplift ourselves and those around us is this piece of and this is actually ties in so well to what you do and the name of this podcast. But I really encourage like doubts and questioning, like, we always have to question forever for our whole lives, that that's really healthy. And, you know, a lot of people will come to me, people who are doing gender identity exploration or looking into their sexuality. It's fraught with doubts, and that's really normal. And I think that's sometimes signals to people that they're not on the right track, or that they're This is not an identity that's authentic. And I always sort of tried to pause people there and sort of say, like, it's really normal and expected to have doubts, because you've been, let's look at your life experience. And let's look at your conditioning. And that doesn't automatically mean you know that you are not this way or that this is not your identity. But rather, it means that this needs a little bit more attention a little bit more nurturing, and pay attention to the intuition, what your gut is telling you. And then if that ever crosses over into sort of skepticism or cynicism, like then we have a problem. But this idea of this constant questioning, like that's actually really healthy, and a lot of people are uncomfortable with that.
Jacqueline Misla
And to your point to continue to do that you named in the beginning, that identity can be conflicting, and is also fluid. And so recognizing that whatever next step they take is not the decision for the rest of their life. It's something that they're trying on now to see how that feels and fits with that some of the work that I do with my clients is the hot and cold game that we used to play as kids, when you'd hide a hot object, and people would run around and you'd be you're getting colder, you're getting warmer, and to play that game with themselves to think about different scenarios, different relationships, different careers, and see if that feels warm in your body. And we're starting to get closer or if it feels cool. And so again, just continuing to play that game with yourself over and over and say what feels good.
Unknown Speaker
I love that. So good. Yes.
Effy
According to max information, and education is the key that opens the door to curiosity and exploration.
Maxx
I think part of that is being able to have this access to this sort of information on a wide scale. And that also means outside of schools, unfortunately, I always say LGBT inclusive education was already a patchwork system in the state of Florida and beyond. And this is only made it more so it's only made that more tenuous, more strained. And it's so important that we're able to have access to these resources outside of schools as well. So prism focuses on digital education. So reaching young people where they increasingly turn to you for information, which is online, it's on social media on the Internet. And being able to have that sort of multifaceted approach to expanding these resources is so important for people feeling seen for feeling heard. And then the other thing is just a larger societal shift is understanding that we exist outside of sex we exist outside of purely that, and that traction is so much more than that. And gender identity is, especially as so much more than that. And that is that sort of destigmatizing that we really need to
Jacqueline Misla
approach. And there's there anything on kind of the individual basis, like what can we do within our family and friends, communities, to recognize and appreciate our identity and the identity of those around us.
Maxx
Again, a lot of that is listening and learning as far as it's the sort of external identities and experience as it's understanding to, you know, being able to interpret and process and listen to the experiences of other people. But I think the other thing is, is advocating on people's behalf as well, people who who are in the closet or aren't able to speak to that on their own. And I think that that's so important, right? More often than not concede time and time again, the ways in which just knowing a gay person, like just knowing a trans person impacts your view of gay people and trans people so So, so heavily and I don't know, especially on the trans side, the number of people in my life who were like very staunchly transphobic and then like, met a trans person and actually that trans person became a regular fixture in their life, whether it be professor, a friend, or a co worker, and the ways in which just in Engaging with trans people humanizes them in such a way that you tolerate trans people so much more.
Effy
As pride month comes to a close our hope is that the conversation around identity formation, sexual orientation and gender expression continues to remain in the zeitgeist. Acceptance and celebration of LGBTQ folk doesn't end when June does. Hartford's rights are at risk. And it's important that we challenge the status quo that has been designed to oppress and suppress. You can do that by donating money to organizations that take on the fight on the frontlines by focusing your time and attention to causes that align. And of course, by voting, get involved with your local elections, and help enable others to do the same.
Jacqueline
Many thanks to Dr. Ariana Moran and Max Fanning. If you're interested in working with Dr. Moran, you can find out more about her practice at elemental psych.com. You can follow max on Instagram and Tiktok at max Pfenning and support the work of Prism by going to prism F l.org. And following on Instagram and Tiktok at prism FL. If you're inspired by this podcast, have questions or would like to share your own story on identity. First, head to our Facebook group, and share your story and discuss the episode with other listeners. Or you can email us at listening at we're curious foxes.com or call us at 646-450-9079. help expand this message by sharing this podcast with others and leaving a comment on Apple or Spotify or wherever you're listening. If you're still curious, and join us on Patreon for many episodes special after hours content and over 50 videos from our educator led workshops go to Patreon. At we are curious foxes.
Effy
This episode is produced and edited by Nina Pollack who allows us to fully express our identity on every episode. Our intro music is composed by dev sa we are so grateful for that work and we're grateful to you for listening as always Stay curious friends
Jacqueline
I think you're gonna need me has become a smoker since we insert code did it did it did it? Did it through
Effy
Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious, curious, curious and curious. Stay curious. Stay curious. Stay curious!
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