Ep 131: Intersectionality, Queer Joy, and Nuyorican Love with Gabby Rivera
Art by @rorymidhani
How can feminism expand to make room for and even celebrate intersectionality? What is the role of joy in identity formation? How can we build communities that see and hold all of who we are?
Effy and Jacqueline hang out with “Juliet Takes a Breath” author Gabby Rivera to talk about drawing from the collective wisdom of feminism and sex-positivity to create QTBIPOC spaces that prioritize representation and intersectionality. They explore the power of joy, language and storytelling in the construction of identity.
More about Gabby
Gabby Rivera is the author of Juliet Takes a Breath, she’s also the writer of the new Marvel series America—featuring the first queer, Latinx teen-girl superhero, ever—that’s catching headlines from The New York Times, CNN, Vogue, and beyond. When not writing, Gabby speaks on her experiences as a queer Puerto Rican from the Bronx, 2an LGBTQ youth advocate, and the importance of prioritizing joy in QTPOC communities at events across the country. She’s also the host of the Joy Uprising podcast which questions “How do you prioritize JOY?”
To find more about Gabby
https://gabbyrivera.com/
IG: @quirkyrican
Joy Uprising podcast
Juliet Takes a Breath
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TRANSCRIPT:
Effy
Welcome to the Curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.
Jacqueline
And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today we're talking about the importance of intersectionality and representation within feminism, identity, politics, and our personal journey of creating our self concept. When we're exploring our sexual orientation, gender, identity, culture and faith, these explorations can take place in separate tracks. We attend pride events, women's history, Month events, cultural events, religious events, and so on. And never the twain shall meet. The separation undermines the importance that intersectionality has on our understanding of our wholeness. Being a pansexual sis Hispanic woman of Christian faith is a different experience than being a lesbian, Buddhist, South Asian trans woman. And this is even without considering ability, nationality, age and a variety of other dimensions of diversity. Having access to people and communities who reflect the complexity and intersectionality of our human experience, create spaces for each of us to be seen and feel whole versus separated into parts.
Effy
This conversation is inspired by the book Juliet Takes a Breath by Gabby Rivera, where she tells a story of a 19 year old New American lesbian from the Bronx with aspirations to be a writer. During a summer internship in Portland with Harlow, a white hippie queer feminist, she gets her first taste of female kinship and queer celebration, so hungry to be seen, accepted and connect with people like her. She gobbles up all the love acceptance, validation and queer wisdom she's generously and kindly provided by her new mentor and the local lesbian community. As Julie gets form, she starts to discover her own taste influenced by her own culture and experience, and soon realizes, although available in abundance, the camaraderie she's been experiencing does not capture the full richness, spice and flavor that aligned with her tastes and craving. There are not a lot of books that tell the story of a person of color who outgrows the white narrative and support she receives, embracing her intersectional identity, which includes her culture, and race and family tradition. And we the reader, regardless of our own identity, root for the multiplicity in Hmm.
Jacqueline
I originally had a few years ago and it resonated in a way that I didn't expect. There are the obvious similarities. I am a queer near Rican from a Pentecostal family who loves to write. But I'm also a person who looked outside of my culture and faith to try to find answers to parts of me that didn't feel seen at home. I learned about beauty and sexuality from the white male gaze. Sex from Sue Johansson and late night HBO and Cinemax. I learned about polyamory from Tristan terminos book opening up, and even queerness I learned from my wife who is also white. The book helped me connect the dots between white sex positivity and white feminism that taught me a lot and the uniqueness in my culture and identity that those things just could not hold.
Effy
So today, Jacqueline and I am speaking with the author.
Gabby Rivera
I'm Gabby Rivera, my pronouns are she her I'm a queer Puerto Rican writer from the bos. I write young adult fiction. My first book was Julia takes a breath. I'm the first Latina to write for Marvel comics with the America series. I'm a nerd burger and a joy advocate. And I'm so excited to be on the Curious Fox podcast.
Jacqueline
We actually started our conversation with Gabby by asking her to settle the question between Effy and I noted that this book is for young adults, but I as a 40 year old non young adult, beg to differ.
Gabby Rivera
I mean, young adult right is like one of those genres where when there's a lot of feelings and teenagers are involved with automatically young adults. But Juliet Takes a Breath is interesting because she's like, 19 you know, like she is is in between like she's leaving her teenager hood and kind of heading into adulthood. And so then it's like, well, where do we put her? Is she adult fiction is she you know what it means. So like, she kind of lands in this place. And also when you write like how your neighborhood speaks, when you write like you're from the Bronx, and you're not like, writing for the literati, or like academia automatically people are like, Oh, that's, that's a younger thing that's must be young adult fiction that that must be for teenagers and middle schoolers. And it's like, well, no, actually, if you're, if you live in our neighborhoods, we all have a similar way of talking. There's slang here, there's, you know, inflections here, there. Spanglish there, and it's not, you don't get to, like make that just for juveniles, you know. And so I think what Julia does, is, is able to, like, bring that language bring that energy to all of us. You know, like she is a character that hits. I've had like, 60 year old lesbians be like I needed Juliet. And also glad she exists, you know, and there's no barrier for them. They're not like, always hard to get through, because it's for young people. It's like, No, this book is for everybody. And those characterizations are like to help the bookstores, the browser, nobles, like put the book in the right place. You know what I mean? We love our independent bookstores, though we love them.
Jacqueline
I want to dig into the book. And I want to, I want to start with that. So, in the book, Juliet, she goes on a journey to step into herself as a writer, as a feminist as a queer woman. And I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about Juliet's journey and how it compares to your own journey.
Gabby Rivera
I mean, listen, Julia is basically like, my, I guess, a memoir of sorts for who I was as a young person, right? Like, Gabby Rivera, me I fell in love with feminism, even though it scared me at first, even though I thought it was just like, some weird things that some something weird that white girls had, you know what I mean? Like, I crafted an internship for myself and an author in Portland, Oregon, I traveled across the country. So Julia, it was like, a love letter to me at 19, you know? And in that journey, it's like, how do I hold on to myself as like a Puerto Rican from the Bronx, with all that, like, grit and toughness, and like, my culture, my ethnicity all around me, and still make room for queerness that I don't I didn't really see too much of, and especially in my like, family, there was a lot of like, religion, Christian Evangelical, so whatever queerness there was, there was a lot of like, homophobia around that and like, feeling that like, you're gonna go to hell, because you're gay and all this stuff. You know what I mean? So where's the room for that? Where's the room for? Feminism? Right, like Juliet is struggling with watching her mom manage an entire household, but still also, like, kind of catered to her dad in moments, right? So how are you a feminist but also gearing yourself up to be a good wife? You know what I mean? Like, so there's so many it's like, so many yes ends and so many contradictions that like, you know, her journey mirrors my own. I was like, very, I don't know, frustrated, pissed off. And also so excited, because I just knew there a better there was better once I went to college, and I saw that there were like, gay people out in the world doing their thing and like thriving and like queer women of color who were feminists who are like, doing things like being beekeepers, on farms somewhere, right, like things I didn't see in the Bronx, like lifestyles that I didn't know where possible. Once I could see all of that once I was on my own traveling and meeting people, I was like, oh, oh, there is a life. For me. A good one, I just have to build it. And like that is the energy I like infused in Juliet. Because it's like, a lot of times, I didn't imagine that I would have that good life because I was queer because my gender presentation was changing from feminine to more masculine, like, all I really saw was like dead ends or like unhappiness or like being cast out of places, you know, like, always having to fight people to just be allowed to exist. But when I was out there and talking to folks and building community, and falling in love with queer people and trans people and gender non conforming people, right, and like, that's when I was like, oh, there's like, there's a really good as life out here. For me. It might not be this little corny life that you people want me to have The small minds themselves, y'all are just going to be jealous of the like fabulously homosexual life. I'm about to live like.
Jacqueline
Yes, yes, she pulled it this thread a little bit. I'm hoping we can continue to go down this road, you one of the themes in the book is about the role of intersectionality. And how in that the role that it plays in thinking about all of who we are, as we search for ourselves and our people, and specifically, Juliet grapples with translating white feminism, which she learns a lot from, but into something that can hold her brownness and her queerness. And so I'm wondering if you talk a little bit more about that, about the experience that you had, observing things that are new, and wanting some of that, but then also not seeing yourself in that space?
Gabby Rivera
Oh, my gosh, you know, it's really interesting, right? Because I love that you name that, like, white feminism for Juliet is something that she learns a lot from. Because I think that when those are our first texts, like if you're just reading white male literature, like Catcher in the Rye, or like, on the road by Jack Kerouac, right? It's not that those texts are like, devoid of brilliance, or like devoid of humanity or learning lessons, it's that they, they can't, they are actually unable to lift you up completely. Right? Like they are not for you, essentially, right, like you are adapting yourself to that tax, you are saying, Okay, here's this white guy, and now I'm gonna try to put myself in his shoes and like, take on these lessons, right? But when something is written for you, it like hits the spirit in such a different way. There were moments in my life where I have aligned myself with like, white lesbian feminists, right. And all of that is, was super good, and there was a lot of uplifting in our queerness and coming together. And then when racist shit would happen, these chicks would scatter. Or they would be like some gaslighting. We're like, So and so didn't really mean it. And like, you got to understand where they're coming from, instead of addressing the harm that like their racism actually enacted on all of us. And when you start to see that kind of shit, when you start to see, for lack of a better term, you start to see bitches acting funny like that. It really makes you reevaluate who you are aligning yourself with. And it is like I was pushed to find more of my own people, I was pushed in the best way to like read Audrey Lorde, I was pushed in the best way to read books like queer brown voices, talking about LGBTQ Latinx activists from the 40s 50s and 60s, and really finding the root of where my people are people have been doing this work. And it is a work that will actually continuously show up for who I am at all times. And so that is what Juliet encounters Pylos feminism, her her white queer feminism lifts Juliet up to a certain point, but then there's no more air left for her, then she has to find the oxygen somewhere else then she has to find folks that are including her brownness her chunkiness, her Puerto Rican, there's places where black feminism and brown feminism and womanism come together and like, create this other magical holy affirming space. And space is right. And so so that's what it is like, and there's a turning point. For so many of us. Were like, I felt like I wasn't even allowed to demand more of those white lesbians, because oh my gosh, look how much we've done for you. Look at this community that we've built here for you. We're really trying our best here. Can you see that? We're just good people. It's like, okay, yes, but also, you are putting some blame on me. And also you're making me try to like waste my energy, I'm making you feel better, instead of like, again, acknowledging harm, and saying I will do better. And a lot of time kids think that they got to accept what is given to them, because people are coming from this alleged good place when it's like okay, you can accept that but you can also demand more, and you must demand more.
Effy
And I see that in the book. I love that is Juliet is sort of spending time in Portland. She does get a lot out of that right and only when she sees what is what is more out when she goes in Miami and she finds out what is what is available like her heritage and her wholeness. Then she realizes is there's more out there for me? And I think it is you don't know what you don't know. Right. And I think this is why, and we definitely gonna go into representation in a minute. It's one of our, you know, one of the things that we really want to explore. But I think that's what happens for her. She's, she's comfy and cozy and is learning something is growing. And then she sees Oh, like there's all this. There's more stuff out there. And I think it is that I think is making sure that those stories are out there as well. And only through finding about finding out about those things that you can, you can reach the extent of your identity.
Gabby Rivera
Yes. And what's really beautiful is that also, we like conditioned to imagine that if we leave where we're from, we'll find better. If we go outside of our ethnic communities, we'll find more acceptance, right. But the magic for Julia is that when she does that digging and exploring, she finds queerness in her own family, right? She finds out that he has like bisexual from like 1981 She finds her cousin, her cousin is the one that leads her to like two queer trans people of color, like party spaces, you know, so. So in a sense, she's gone on this journey, but literally comes back to herself, and her family and her people and other Puerto Ricans and other people of color that like, hung on her love on her and reminds her that like everywhere she goes, is home and has the potential to be uplifting and safe and magical and beautiful. You know? So yeah, like that was that was important to me, especially as a kid coming up in the Bronx, because the Bronx is one of the poorest districts in the whole country. And there's this narrative that you got to get out, you got to get out in order to be great, you got to get out. And sometimes that's true. And then also sometimes where you're from is the best place for you where you're from, always is going to love you like where you're from people that are queer and trans and disabled, and whatever it is. They live there too. And y'all are all thriving and trying together to make it better. You know?
Effy
Yeah, yeah. What was that like for you personally? Like, I mean, today's story is awesome. Is that did did that parallel with your story? And, and how did you work to address the gap between what was available to you and what you needed?
Gabby Rivera
Oh, my gosh, I just I am like a community. What am I gonna say communities? No, that's not the right way. But I am like, I have always been a seeker. I've always been a seeker. I've always looked for that, which I cannot find. So when I was falling in love with poetry, right, but the poetry scene in my high school was very bland. I searched and searched and so I found the new Rican poets cafe. And that was slam poetry that was like black poetry. Puerto Rican poetry, like urban New York was really brilliant spoken word. And the same thing with like, you know, being a queer person of color, like searching and looking for those parties looking. Oh my god, there was like, a party called Choice cons back in the day when it was all like reckless, beautiful lesbians from all over at right and like it was this raucous like underground party. And then finding like writer spaces for LGBTQ folks and finding like fat positive places, right? Like, just always looking because I needed it. I needed it to feel safe. I needed to feel inclusive. I was getting pushed out of the church, I was getting pushed out of Latino straight clubs, like do straight up being like, What the hell are you get the hell out of here and like, get the fuck out of my face. You know what I mean? Like, and I'm just trying to hang out with my cousins at the club that they'd like to go to suicide when you get pushed out of all these spaces because you look different because your sexuality is different. Because they think you're going to hell. It made me a freakin seeker. It made me be like, where are my people? I must find us i and if I can't find us, I'm gonna create the space that I need to feel safe. Like I'm doing it. I even hosted queer women speed dating in New York City because I was like, I'm looking for love. Everyone's looking for love. Let me host an event that's going to bring people to love to love each other. You know, so if I can't find it, I'm gonna make it.
Jacqueline
I love all of that. I think you know, growing up similar to your experience, you know, New York weekend group, Puerto Rican grew up in New York. religious background, never felt like any space was My Space, right, so I didn't feel Hispanic enough, because a, um light, but also I think for a long time, I was seeking out to be as white as possible, right, like everything in the media was saying that if I stayed on the path of the path of Puerto Ricans, I was going to end up in a place that I did not want to end up. And so instead, if I had the White House and the white husband and the white picket fence, and the white kids and the white dog, like all of that would be my pathway to success and to joy. So I would try to surround myself with with white folks, but they were like, Yeah. Too much melanin is a little bit too much of an accent, there's a little bit too much you don't really fit in. So then I would go sit at the speed table, I would go sit with like, you know, the hit the Hispanic kids, and they were like, your accent actually is not strong enough. Your melanin is not dark enough and your history and you don't speak Spanish, right? You know, the Puerto Ricans, I did my whole master's thesis on the fact that why Puerto Ricans don't speak Spanish. But there was so much of like, I didn't fit into any of this, because I had too much faith to be in secular spaces, I had too little faith to be in religious spaces, like I was a man without a country. And Fe and I've talked about this, I mean, Fe is kind of a global immigrant and global citizen. And this, I love what you were talking about in terms of all of these different communities and experiences can unlock possibilities. And unlike lock insights, but you're not going to find home outside of yourself, that you can keep going to all these spaces looking to fit in. But the only place that you can fit in is within yourself. And so how do you leverage all of those insights to say, Ah, that feels right. What was the responses of folks when you were creating these spaces when you're doing the speed dating and creating, you know, and poetry sets up? Like what what were the responses? And what were you seeing and feeling when folks could come in and feel seen and connected in ways that they had not before?
Gabby Rivera
Oh, my gosh, it was just electric, like doing the lesbian queer women's speed dating at the Strand bookstore in New York City of a couple of times that we were able to host them, it was like, it was so exciting, and so giddy and goofy. And like, even the strand people were like, Oh, my gosh, when we do this for straight people, it's like 100 women and like, for men. And when we did it for queer folks, like, you know, gender non conforming, and women, it was like, we were like, 200 plus at every turn, like, people were showing up. And they wanted to connect in this like nerdy way, right? And it's also like, it started the it was at the beginning of that shift where I think queer folks were like, damn, a lot of our social interactions revolve around drinking or the bar or getting trashed at Pride. And people were starting to do other nerdy things, right. And speed dating was a part of that coming together and doing like a book club and like, I don't know, knitting sweaters for your cats, whatever the hell it was. People were starting to do different things. And so it was just an exciting and refreshing moment. And also, it was like, not overly sexualized, either, right? It wasn't like Shane and the L word banging through like, 40 women and like a week, it was like, Hey, here's some quotes from Ruby fruit jungle. Find the person in the room that can like, finish the quote, right? And here's the speed dating prom. Talk about your favorite Taylor Swift songs, you know, like, it's just regular, like regular people stuff. And I think that is what had like all these queer folks gravitating to what we were doing. Even when I was writing for the feminist lesbian website, auto shuttle, like, the articles that we were writing were just like, reflective of who we are as people, overall, not just our queerness so folks were writing articles about their parenting journey, the crushes that they had on Beyonce growing up, like their lives as like, you know, lesbian candle makers, right? Like, just all sorts of, of nuanced ways of living. And I think that that is like, that was like the exciting part. That was like the fun part for like, the types of community that you can build on like infinite. You know, when I'm doing talks, and I'm going to schools and like, kids are like, Hey, I am native and disabled, and I love Pokemon. How the heck am I supposed to find community? And I'm like, Look, you got three places to look and if those three places right don't serve you, you get to throw the pajama jam party for the disabled Native kids who love walking by and they do come you they are out there dying for the The moment to be part of your party friends like that is the thing that I think like I love getting to see light up and people when they're like, oh my god, Gabby, how did you find yourself and all these different places and it's like, once I realized that if there's a me, there's definitely a you. If there's a me searching for this, then there's another person out there searching just as hard and hoping somebody invites them in. Like, it really freed me up, it really allowed me to like be like, Okay, I will move forward in this without fear. I will be as open as I possibly can. And wherever I can invite people along with me. And I think that's like, for me, one of my favorite parts about Juliet is that she invites you along for the ride. There's so much room and her thought process and what she's afraid of, in her anxieties in her joys in her triumphs that will no matter what your upbringing or backgrounds or sexuality or whatever it is, no matter what or who you are, you are invited on the ride with her.
Jacqueline
If there is a me than there's a you, that's beautiful. Yeah, yeah. You're a writer. And so words are very important. And I'm wondering about how do words help us find connection to who we are and to who we want? And what are the barriers of words, sometimes, you and I had a conversation in prep for this. And you were talking a little bit about some things in your relationship journey and some words that you're like, that doesn't work for me and finding better words. And so I'm just wondering if you can share some some thoughts in your own life around finding words that help you feel like you fit finding words that help align to your truth?
Gabby Rivera
Yes, listen, words, have people trippin Right? Like, people get sewn? Oh, how are you going to call yourself this? And how are you going to call yourself that? And that doesn't exist, you can't be trans because that that's not real. And I don't like that word, and how can you be bisexual, but also asexual that will make sense to me. And it's like, joke's on you. Because I don't care. I loved working with LGBTQ youth, because they will be coming up with all of these things. Like they'd be like, I'm a dummy girl, who is a great ace, who is also trans mask who is XYZ, and there would be times I would just be taking notes and writing down these times, and just being like, if the kid says that they are this, I'm gonna write this down, figure out what it is, and find all the resources so that they can find all the other trisexual dolphin Angel babies that they want to find, right? Like we're gonna throw that party for you, and celebrate you. And I think a lot of people, instead of embracing that are just like, No, how dare you? How dare you try to make room and womanhood for trans women? How dare you try to take this and call me sis. Like, it's just so so boring. And you should feel embarrassed? If that is your response to somebody naming themselves and finding joy in that naming. You should feel so fucking embarrassed. That that's the thing that is tripping you out. And that's the thing that makes you want to harm somebody else, right? So like, I find so much joy and thinking of new things to call myself like right now. I'm like, I'm a butch mama. I also feel like I'm a mom, dad, right? Like, if you can merge those two words together. My girl calls me her lover boy. I'm her. Her husband, her like Butch wife. Like there's so many playful terms. You know what I mean? Like what you were saying? When we were talking about polyamory Right? Like, me and my girl like I'm monogamous. She's polyamorous and we are like committed to this love thing with each other. And so we were talking through terminology. I was reading Polly secure, I was following the Polyfilla blogs. And we came across the term like anchor partner. And that's like, the person that you're kind of like, Okay, would you we could like build a life let's have kids, let's like, get a home together. Like it's gonna be me and you maybe we even get married or something. Or you know, whatever it is, whatever the case you don't have to do all those things. But this is the person that you're like, I am committing to you in this particular way. And we were talking about as a baby, I don't want to be your anchor partner like to me that makes me think of like, rabid white Republicans talking shit about immigrants and like anchor babies, right? That's a horrible term. Babies that like well lock you into being an American citizen. And that pisses off the Republicans. So I don't like that. And also, when I think of anchor, I think of this big ass, heavy thing that you throw down into the ocean and like with its hooks into the ocean floor, going nowhere. That's not us, that's not us. And so we're in the car with talking, I'm like, for me, it's more like, we're, we're letting our, we're putting down roots together. And we're letting those roots just like flourish into the ground, and they can link up together, they can reach out and connect with other folks, I would rather be your route partner. And that felt so good to us, you know, and like, it felt really empowering. And it was like, Okay, for the people who are poly who created the term anchor partner, that must have felt so good to them to create that term, and, and provide language for their experience. And that allowed us to jump off from there and say, Hey, okay, but now we need it to be this, we need it to feel this way. So from anchor partner, now we are route partners. And so like, language is beautiful in that way, in the terms that no longer suit us, we get to like craft new ones. And almost like future casts for the next generation, right? Because some kid is going to be like rude partners. So I don't want to be in the dirt. I want to be your leg, like Cloud Bucha. You know, we're gonna be cloud based together, because we're just going to be up in the atmosphere, gathering all that joy like raindrops, you know what I mean? Like disappearing? When we mean Oh, my God, just create a new term. Yeah. Why are people so afraid of that?
Effy
It's true. Yeah, I think what you're saying is so true in that, it's really about being conscious about your experience, and then creating words that feel good about it, right? Anything. The point is, is you look at your relationship, and you define it in a way that is not that feels good for everyone, right? So you, you and your partner spoke and then the idea of anchor just didn't sit right with you. And having heard your, your reasoning for that I'm like, 100%, I can see how it can be really, it just does not fit people, right. But what what polyamory has allowed, has allowed is exactly what you said, which is to create a relationship to my language, which would be to design a relationship, and then call it whatever feels good to you. Right. And I love that the clouds, you know, the cloud boos, or route partners or uncle partners or nesting, whatever feels good, as long as it really defines and makes you feel good and seen and heard and the relationship and it feels right to you. And it it speaks your experience and to your relationship. I think we should just call it whatever we want.
Jacqueline
Yeah, if he says that sometimes language can bring us to the same page, but not the right paragraph or sentence. And I think that's what you're talking about there. I think that that's brilliant when you know, because it was the first time that I realized that language to as what you all are saying it opens the door. But it also can be a barrier if you let it stop there, that it's going to bring us to the same we're gonna get into the same room together, we're gonna get close. But then it's up to us to have a conversation about what really fits and what feels right.
Effy
Right. I love what it brings up though I'd love I love that conversation around like what polyamory look and feels like for you.
Jacqueline
And I'm interested because in in Juliet, there's, you know, an exploration or an understanding, getting to know of non monogamy and she kind of explores that. And so it feels like you're going through that in your life. I'm waiting for the non monogamy book now to come out next.
Gabby Rivera
Oh, I am working on it. Listen, y'all, like I took on polyamory, also, like as a first time pregnant person. So I was like navigating polyamory for the first time while still navigating like morning sickness and like, highly emotional, like weeping sessions. And my girl was just like, Baby, you can do this, we're gonna do this. You got this one hand. She's like, giving me my little snacks, right? Because I'm like, I've got all this heartburn. And so she's making me a little practice. And in the next session, she's like, and I'm going on a date, and you're gonna be okay. And we're gonna work through this together and we are gonna, like, go to counseling and we're gonna, you know, like, you need to do your work. I need to do my work. It has been a wild ride. And I've definitely been doing my best to document it. But yeah, polyamory y'all
Effy
doing? Well. I have a baby now.
Jacqueline
And you're still together and you have the baby and you're still together those two things. Yes.
Gabby Rivera
system. Yes, we have the baby, I have the baby, we are still together. And there's also like a Polly Boo from my girl. Right? So they're like, our relationship has expanded in so many ways. And polyamory is something it has been really wrenching, really emotionally wrenching, but it has also, I have uncovered so much shit and trauma that I have been holding on to, that I didn't even realize was impacting my relationships with people through polyamory, right? Because at a certain point, I had to stop pointing the finger at my girlfriend being like, why are you doing this to me? Why are you doing this to us? And being like pointing it back at myself? And like, what is really upsetting me? Am I jealous of this other person? Or am I scared that no one's ever really going to love me? And if I'm scared that no one's ever really going to love me? How am I not seeing all the ways that my girl is loving? You wear a whole heart? How am I not recognizing that this person who's taking me to my prenatal exams? Who's like slicing up apples and crackers, so my stomach doesn't hurt? Who is calling my mother on her birthday? Who is planning a baby moon with me? Like who has invited me into her home to meet her teenagers to love her? How am I not seeing that this person is offering me all the love I've ever dream though. And that by opening myself up to polyamory, I am allowing her to be loved in all of her fullness. So is this really about jealousy? Or is this really about like, having to expand my my notions of queer radical love. And that is something that I had to learn on my on my own. Because when I would hear other people talking like that, I'd be like, Man, you guys just drink the Kool Aid. You try to just be gradient day everybody like, I love. You can't fool me. I'm from New York. But digging deep into it, it has been such a like, wow, excavation. And it is is something that I'm so thankful for. And a year in, I'm finally experiencing moments, big beautiful moments of like Comparison, where I'm excited for my girl when she's like, out on a date. And there's been moments where I've connected with like, the people that she's gone on dates with or someone that she's seeing and have had beautiful conversations and like hanging out times. And I feel like my community is expanding through this. And even though I'm the monogamous partner, I I kind of love the idea that if and when anyone I am interested in comes along that like there's room and freedom in my relationship to explore that. Yeah, I mean, it is wild. Wild, y'all but like, with her with us, like anything is possible. And I feel so loved. So cared for like, it's a beautiful thing.
Jacqueline
Yeah, it's just as a as a future reader of the book you're writing. I think the pace, the place that I hope that you talk about and you're sharing a little bit now is, in terms of really feeling seen is my experience has been that within non monogamy spaces that we often have to defend against the monogamist perspective and judgment. And so we're like, it's great, everything is good. There's just conversion and orgies all over the place. We just We just love it. And then and I was like, nah, this doesn't feel like that at all. This feels terrible. Like, it was like, this is awful. I hate it. I don't like it. I know that this is stirring up stuff in me. I know it's about me. But like God did this hard. And it wasn't I haven't found enough places where there was a conversation around how hard it actually is. And the things you have to learn and navigate and the conversations that you have to have an emptiness around. And there's a lot of that and I understand why. Because we don't want to add more fuel to the fire against non monogamous relationships. We're trying to be like, it's great. It's great, it's great. But when it's not great, it makes you feel really lonely. And so you know, appreciate that you're gonna dig into some of what is difficult about it so that people can experience and see both the barriers and the and the struggle and the joy and the possibility because it all is there. It's all of it. Yeah,
Gabby Rivera
I mean this I mean, my girl joke that the book is going to be called Forever crying crying a bunch mama navigates polyamory, right. Because I swear to God, I have cried so much
Effy
That's hilarious.
Gabby Rivera
Yeah, no, you're right. Like and and I also, I understand why as well like in polyamory spaces, and then the newer polyamory spaces, I feel like those of us who are kind of more monogamous, do get a little more love. But I think in the beginning, the monogamy part was like the thing that you were railing against, right? And so like, that is like a rightful push against that to form the necessary like structure of like what your polyamory is, because you're like fighting against this thing called monogamy that's been forced on you, right? So I totally understand that. But what I've appreciated in folks like Bear and Fifi, other folks who like I think it was a Gabrielle Smith who are talking about polyamory on Instagram, it was like a tenderness for any of those relationship choices, whether you're poly or monogamous or like, your solo poly, or you want a nesting partner, whatever it is, that you feel in your heart, there's so much room for that. So for me with the monogamy, it's like, less about me and my girl have to be in this one thing, just me and her and more about like, hey, on the inside, when I fall in love, I just kind of see butterflies for one person. And like, that brings an ease into my heart. And like I feel really good about that. And I don't really think about other people, you know, like, I want friendships, I want like goofy times, but like, once my heart is yours, right, then that's kind of it, you know, and that feels really good and sweet to me. And what has been really helpful as like, I have been learning that that doesn't mean that my love is like the purest love or the best love, right? It is literally just how I am loving. And so from my girl, for her to be able to love me with her whole self, and have room to share different types of love with different people doesn't take away anything from us. And it is more about like her and her internal self and her capacity and what makes her feel fantastic. You know what I mean? It is a trip, it is a wild ride.
Jacqueline
Yeah, in thinking I'm talking about the complexity of both the barriers and the struggles and the joy, want to talk a little bit about that, because joy is such a point of passion for you. And so you know, when we often when folks are talking about their journeys in POC communities and queer communities, we are talking about the barriers and the struggles and the work and the things that we have to do to overcome. But the points of that journey is joy. And so, you know, I'm wondering if you can talk about the role that joy has played in your journey, and the importance of us focusing on joy?
Gabby Rivera
Oh, my gosh, yes. Listen, we get let's go in specific and then pull out, okay, because there is a moment, right? Like, there's a moment where I like, I had to grab joy, right? So me and my girl, we're dealing with a lot of polyamory stuff, but I was pregnant. And I was very emotional. And we had a lot of ruptures. It was really fucking hard. I would be like, how could you do this to me? I'm fucking pregnant. And I would be like, is it because I'm bushed that nobody gives a shit that I'm hurting right now. If we were straight, and you were stepping out on me, everyone would be coming for you. But because we're queer, and you're feminine, but I'm expected to just like, take these lumps. And she would be like, I can't believe you're looking at it like that. That's totally not what's happening. I am supporting you. I am here I am. I didn't imagine I would be with someone who wanted to have a baby. But I am opening my heart and I'm walking this walk with you. How could you not see that? And she's like, 100%, right. So it was all these ruptures. There's all these ruptures. And then a week after I'd given birth, we had another we had another rupture. Something shifted in me, you know, my girls very much quick to like, meet me where I'm at. But in this moment, this rupture, she was like, guarding herself, and not talking to me. And I texted her and I was like, I literally gave birth this week, you have to talk to me, like no bullshit, like if we're trying to do family. So she started talking to me. And then in that moment, I was like, I am so tired of being in this rupture with you. I need us to find that guilty joy that we had when we first started doing all of this. And I'm gonna start it in myself. Like, I promise you that instead of pivoting into an attitude or into rage, or into judgment or defensiveness, I'm going to pivot into that Joy of our love, and all the reasons why I am I adore you, I am lovingly obsessed with you and your smile and your happiness. And I need you. I need you to promise that to me too. I need us to like live in that space from that one at like, it can't be this back and forth anymore. We're not going to survive this. So she took her moment she thought it through and then it was like, Yes, I will meet you there, we will meet in our joy, we will communicate from that place no matter what happens. And since that conversation, I see it, I feel it. Like the ruptures, like those ruptures that we had do not exist in this space right now. And I trust that no matter what we go through, no matter what's coming our way, like that core promise to like root in our joy, and in our giddy love. Like that is the thing. That's the magic place. That is like everything right now.
Jacqueline
I'm just letting that land. That's what's happening. That really resonates. Because I do think that that is true. That it the way in which we frame our mindset, we will see evidence of those things, right that our brain is trying to find evidence of the things that we want to see. And so if you are looking for the joy, you will find that. And if you're looking for deception, if you're looking for disrespect, if you're looking for you're gonna find examples of that, yes. So you know, you said talking granular and talking going out and talking big imagine you have podcast about joy, you know, talk a talk and and really focus on that. Did that inform that awareness for you? Did you come from a place of thinking about joy, which led you to that moment, or has Joy been something that you continue to strive for and feels a little elusive, which is why you keep kind of going to have this dance of going away?
Gabby Rivera
Oh, I love that. I love that you brought us back to that point that is like, perfect, you are really good at this. You know, I like to joke around and be like I'm from New York, and we do not grew up believing enjoy, we grow up ready to fight.
And so, so but but I think also, Joy is interesting because I never had it as like a personal concept. I think I understood like happiness that I could be happy if I caught the train at the right time and made it to work on time and like, had a good lunch. I could feel happy. You know what I mean? But joy as like a deep rooted like radical political like spiritual practice. That is something that I have been working on in the last like 10 years or so. And even more specifically, even though it was relatively soon, or relatively, like, in the last 10 years, this is something that happened recently kind of was like when 45 was president of the United States. I grew up with US Soccer in New York, and he was always in the paper for lying about stuff for swindling getting sued. So we they used to call him Donald Trump in the paper. That's how I grew up learning about this man. Right? So for me to see him become president. I was just like, wow, this is the dupe of the century. This shyster. This con man from birth has just swindled the country. Okay. And I saw the devastation and people everywhere you were riding the subway that morning, when he was elected. It was fucking silence. People were devastated and pissed. We were like walking around. And this is a city that experience you know, 911 Right. So we've been through some shit in New York, and that motherfucker getting elected really level people. And what I noticed was when I was traveling for my work, gigs, talking to students talking to teachers, talking to librarians, talking to corporate leaders, even people were gutted. And everybody This has many started during the Muslim ban. Then he started talking about the wall. Then all the white folks started coming out of the woodworks with their white supremacist protests and their tiki torches. And people in my circles were like, a fucking scam. My family can't come back to the country because it has been I'm scared because he called Mexicans this I'm scared because he's rallying the white people. I'm scared because everything that I believed in, that would keep me and my family only safe is ready to crumble. And it was this circle of like commiserating. And it was like killing me. I could see it draining people. And I started asking folks like, Yo, what brought you joy this week? Because I need some joy. I don't know if I have any joy was brought you deep joy. And especially for students, that would be the question that would like, give them pause and perk them right up. And a lot of times, especially in that moment, make people cry, because they will be like, no one has ever asked me that before. In my whole life, no one has ever asked me about joy, and my joy, and how they can help me experience more joy. And so that's when it really started to take off for me that this was something not only that I needed, but that I could in my own way offer to others and invite people into the conversation right? So with the joy uprising podcast, I talk to queer and trans people of color and our allies supporters right. And ask how in your everyday life as a journalist as a reverend as a YouTuber, as it sits out there, right? Like whatever it is that you do, how do you prioritize joy? How do you uplift joy? And then that conversation in and of itself becomes an offering. So whoever needs joy can tap into that listen to that episode, and and experience queer divine joy, experience romantic joy when I do the conversation with my girl experience healing familial joy when I talked to my mom and we talk about her experience as a hetero evangelical woman having two gay children and how she has come so far that like, she like knits, the dog pride sweaters you've probably read like, so it's like one of my my, the Reverend Kelly browns on this when I interviewed her she told me that joy is my ministry. And I was like, what a statement I have held that and I've held it in my in my heart when I close my eyes in my like quietest moments, I like believe it. I feel like that is my part of my ministry on this earth.
Jacqueline
We've privileged both in this podcast and and through your work to to hear about your journey. And so we are going to be bold and ask you even for more questions, just to learn a little bit more about you and whatever you feel comfortable sharing, but we'd love to end this conversation just in in getting to know you a little bit more. And so the first of those questions is based on on everything that you've learned so far, what is one piece of advice that you would give to your younger self about love and sex or relationships?
Gabby Rivera
You do not have to suffer in love. Ever, not for anybody. You get to be raucously happy and full of giddy joy and love.
Effy
What is one romantic or sexual adventure on your bucket list?
Gabby Rivera
You know I went out here and I'm like where's the like mask for mask bush for Bush? Like can I get a boyfriend? Can I please find a boyfriend out in the world? Like Can we trade snapbacks and sneakers? Can I open your strong arms you know you're out there sliding
Effy
officially out there now nice. I love that we put that out there for you
Jacqueline
how is it that you challenge the status quo?
Gabby Rivera
Oh my god, I like stepping out into the world and my phone that's my full self when my tattoos my snapbacks my baby my Doc Martens, my beautiful high femme girlfriend and my like I could give a fuck. If you judge me attitude,
Jacqueline
love well said to New Yorker right there. I like
Effy
loving love and streets. Love it. Love it. Okay, we are a curious bunch around here and we are curious about what you're curious about lately.
Gabby Rivera
Oh my gosh, outer space. I listened to Astronomy Cast the podcast. And they've been they all the things about like the nebulas, the like supernovas, the James Webb telescope, all the nerdy space stuff. I'm like obsessed with that stuff. Right now. I'm really into that dynamic cast podcast.
Effy
We had somebody else say that to us recently. Right? They were super curious about the new telescope
Gabby Rivera
was it? Yeah. James Webb telescope.
Effy
J Exactly. Yeah, they were. That's cool. We got we got Think
Jacqueline
speaking of outerspace, we're gonna have to have you come on again to talk about America. Chavez, we have not been able to talk about it in this conversation. So we're gonna need another time to have a conversation with you.
Effy
I like the nerdiest, nerdiest nerdy person that you'll ever meet. And yes, holy, what is it about America, Chavez?
Gabby Rivera
Let's do it. I would love to come back on the curious. Yes, please.
Jacqueline
Oh, thank you so much, Gabby, this was really great. I really appreciate you your work this conversation. Thank you.
Effy
Thank you, Gary.
Gabby Rivera
Oh, my gosh, thank you all.
Jacqueline
If you want to learn more about Gabby Rivera, you can find her at Instagram at quirky weekend. And via her website, Gabby rivera.com. You can also listen to her on the joy uprising podcast. I of course, I'm a big fan of the America series by Marvel Comics featuring America Chavez, the first queer Latina X teen girl superhero, and also her book Juliet Takes a Breath, you can find both on our website and at your local bookstore. If you've enjoyed the episode, have questions, strategies to share or you want to connect with other foxy listeners, Head to facebook and join our Facebook group at we are curious foxes. Be sure to save, follow and share the curious Fox podcast and send it this episode to folks who you think are going to enjoy it and learn something new. And now you can also find our shows on YouTube with playlists where you can submerge yourself in topics like jealousy, non-monogamy, trauma, sex, and so much more. Please go to YouTube and follow us so that you can help us reach our target of 1000 subscribers by the end of the month. become a Patreon subscriber and get some early releases of our episodes many episodes and content that we just could not fit on the show Patreon at we are curious foxes. Finally, visit us on our website. There are blog posts reading lists past episodes so much more at we're curious foxes.com If you have a question for the show, or maybe even a show idea. Let us know by sending us an email at listening at weird curious fox.com Or you can record a question for the show by calling us at 646-450-9079
Effy
This episode is produced by Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla them with help from Jamar Eric Keisha. Our editor is Nina Pollock, who helped us create a space where every part of us can be seen. Our intro music is composed by deficit hmm, we are so grateful for that work. And we're grateful to you for listening. As always stay curious friends.
Jacqueline
Isn't New York happening behind me with the sirens by the way?
Gabby Rivera
I'm trying to find Oh my God, that's my city.
Jacqueline
I think that that resonates with everybody.
Effy
Thank you chicken chicken, chicken chicken like a Polaroid picture. And we're grateful for what curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic. We solely aim to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind. And we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious, curious curious. Thank you. Take care and stay curious.
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