Ep 133: Sex, Islam and Iran with Seyran Ateş
What are the core tenants of Islam and the Qur'an and how do they apply to sexuality? What is the significance of the hijab (headscarf)? What would it take for Islam to have a sexual revolution?
On this many-months-in-the-making episode, Effy and Jacqueline speak with female Imam, human rights lawyer, and the author of the book Islam Needs a Sexual Revolution, Seyran Ateş about Islam and sexuality. They dive into the history of the religion; discuss the perception of women within the Muslim faith; examine the protests in Iran following the death of Mahsa Amani in police custody; and attempt to parse apart religion from the patriarchy.
More about Seyran
Seyran Ateş is a lawyer, political activist and journalist. During her law studies, she worked in a counseling center for Turkish women, where she was very seriously injured in 1984 in an assassination attempt. In 1997 she began working as a lawyer, but withdrew from this activity between 2006 and 2012 because of murder threats; she supported, among other things, the criminal prosecution of forced marriages. In June 2017, she founded the liberally-oriented Ibn-Rushd-Goethe-mosque in Berlin. In numerous books, Ateş has repeatedly treated issues of gender and integration within the context of Islam. Her work has brought her many awards, including the Federal Cross of Merit First Class in 2014.
To learn more about Seyran, follow her on Instagram @seyranates_official or visit her website seyranates.de/
To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla
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TRANSCRIPT:
Effy
Welcome to the curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.
Jacqueline
And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today we're talking about Islam and sexuality. This is a topic that we've wanted to cover for some time. We've done a few episodes on sexuality Christianity in the Bible, but we couldn't find someone to speak with us about sexuality within the Muslim faith. Until now. This conversation allowed us to talk about the ongoing current events as protests intensify in Iran over the death of masa meanie who is killed in police custody after being arrested for improperly wearing her hijab.
Effy
This is a big topic, stretching over hundreds of years of Quranic interpretation, religious dogma, political influence, and patriarchal power. Well, kinda like any other major religion really. After the break, we're going to give you a brief summary of the history of the Quran, and talk with female Imam, human rights lawyer and activist Sarah Nitesh. About what Islam has to say about sexuality and what's happening in Iran. It's a conversation that surprised both Jacqueline Amin and gave a deeper insight into how we got here and what we can do next.
Jacqueline
Before we dig in today's topic, we want to pause to remind you about three important things. Curious Fox is more than just a podcast. For over six years, we've been producing workshops, writing blog posts, creating worksheets and cultivating conversations. Our goal is to promote curiosity and to change the noise using all the platforms that we have available to us to share stories, research and insights that provide an alternative to the mainstream view on love, sex and relationships. We want people to feel seen and consider new possibilities every time they listen, read or interact with curious Fox content. So here are three simple ways to support us that won't cost you a penny. First, please like follow subscribe, or simply click on the plus button somewhere on your podcast app and tell the podcast algorithms that this content matters. Number two, go to our website. We are curious foxes.com And subscribe to the curious Fox newsletter so that you can receive curated recommendations on topics such as jealousy, non monogamy, pleasure dating, and so much more. And three, subscribe to our YouTube channel where you not only you can listen to the show, but you can find playlists on popular topics and you gorgeous art that's been selected for each and every episode. These three small things will amount to one big fu to the status quo.
Effy
You can argue that most people in North America started to learn about Islam in the shadow of 911. So let's take a step back. And as your resident nerd, let me take a stab at covering a brief history of Islam for context. Because we do those kinds of things on the show. Like Judaism and Christianity. Islam is an Abrahamic religion incepted on the east coast of the Mediterranean Sea. The story of Islam begins in the seventh century, when Angel Gabriel appears to Muhammad at a time a caravan manager in his 40 years to deliver the Word of God which eventually becomes the Quran, the holy book of Islam. Islam is what people call a radical reforming religion. Like Jesus and Moses were obsessed with restoring the Abrahamic monotheism, belief in a single omnipresent God when they thought people were starting to take liberties. Well, so Did Muhammad. Muslims believe that Muhammad was the final prophet to bring people back to one true God and one true religion. The Quran acknowledges Abraham, Moses and Jesus and all the other prophets, but it has a whole different vibe to the Bible. The biggest difference is that the Quran was written from the point of view of the revelations of Muhammad, so it is the direct Word of God rather than collection of stories. The Quran is a broad and complicated text like any other old religious text But ultimately it has two fundamental teachings. The first one is monotheism. One and only God, or Allah, which is just an Arabic word for God, not a whole other god called other, the other, taking care of those who are less fortunate than you know, why is this better illustrated, then the way the Sharia law treats women and orphans, giving them rights and protections are the religions don't even consider. Then there are the five pillars of Islam that instruct how to practice the Muslim faith. The first one is declaring there is only one God and Muhammad is the prophet. The second one is ritual prayer five times a day, which is why the mosques make call five times a day to remind Muslims it's time to get on your prayer mat. third pillar is a month of fasting from dawn till dusk during Ramadan. The fourth pillar is donating a portion of your wealth to the less fortunate and the needy. And the final pillar, the fifth pillar is the pilgrimage to Mecca, called Hodge. An important thing to know about the Quran is like the Bible. It has some additional volumes that came after it was completed. They're called the Hadith. Some of these are these are well sourced and widely accepted. And some very much fail to understand the assignment. For example, the 70 Virgins that everybody talks about, is in a hadith that is as reliable as BuzzFeed, and not believed by the majority of Muslims. Last but not least, let's just address Sharia, which is the religious law of Islam. Islam does not separate religion and governance. We associate the Sharia law with chopping of heads and stoning of women these days. However, this is a very reductive and ignorant view on it. It governs everything that you would imagine any other legal system to govern, such as the rights of people, property, criminality, family structure, and in some cases, yes, clothing and more. The important thing to know about Sharia is that it is not the same across the Islamic community. There are numerous competing ideas, interpretations of it, like many other legal traditions,
Jacqueline
to help us connect the dots between this history and what we're seeing today in the protests in Iran and other Muslim countries. We're speaking with,
Seyran Ateş
I say hello to everybody. My name is Sarah Mukesh. I'm living in Berlin. I'm 59 years old now. And I'm a lawyer. I'm also and women rights and human rights activists. Since 2017, I opened the liberal mosque, and I'm the leader of this mosque. So there are several interests and professions where I'm active. And maybe the most interesting thing for us today is that I wrote a book with the title Islam needs a sexual revolution.
Jacqueline
See, one has received numerous death threats and an assassination attempt to because of her support of criminal prosecution of forced marriages, amongst other things. Despite the resistance to her work, she founded the liberally oriented mosque in Berlin, and has repeatedly addressed issues of gender and integration within the context of Islam. Within her many books.
Effy
We started our conversation by asking What does Islam and the Quran say about sexuality?
Seyran Ateş
In Islam, we look very, the Quran looks very positive. And people who are Islamic scholars or people who are really into it, they know that sexuality is in Islam is not just for having kids having baby and it should not just do it for it. So the act of being in this procedure of sex, how anyway you want to describe that is really ministers described in many Hadees or many, many stories about the history of Islam, that people should enjoy it and have satisfaction. And while you have your orgasm, it's like being so close to God, what you don't have all you couldn't have in other situations. So psychologically speaking, is that sexuality is so important, and makes you so relaxed and satisfied, and bring you as much as close to this feeling of being close to God and the same time. It's an inspiration, what you have, when you have sex, when you have an orgasm. You are feeling very close to everything what will happen in paradise. So it's a kind of telling you, it's a promise. It's like a promise what you will, you will get it In Paradise, and this is what you will expect in paradise. And this makes makes it different to Christianity and Judaism somehow.
Effy
Yeah. What I'm hearing you say is that in contrast to the other two are bionic religions, Judaism and Christianity. Islam embraces sexuality for pleasure, refers to the act of sex as heavenly and orgasms godly. This was in itself a sexual revolution by the seventh century standards.
Seyran Ateş
And another very important point is that in Islam, not just the man should have satisfaction, the man has to look for satisfaction also for the women, the women has the right to be satisfied. And maybe you heard about the Sharia anyway. But when it comes to family law inside the Sharia, maybe you heard that women don't have the right to ask for diverse that they are there, they are not allowed to go to court and to request for diverse, but they are allowed by Sharia law. If the man cannot satisfy his five, this is the first reason why a woman has the right to go to court and say this man is important. He cannot satisfy me. And that's Islam. Many people don't know how I love my religion for
Effy
that's actually a radical, that's super radical.
Jacqueline
That's different. On the other hand, it sounds like Islam is similar to other religions in that it promotes sex only within wedlock. Can you speak to marriage and Islam.
Seyran Ateş
In Islam, you should have sex just when you are married, when you have Nikka, because in Arabic, and in Turkish means you are married, that you should have sex in a regular way. That means by low by Islamic law, being a couple means you can have sex. For that reason, or maybe because of that reason, I didn't know really why. If you read the Quran, you will not find a role word like sex, or sexuality. These are modern words. In Quran, you will just find mica, because it means be varied in Turkish and Arabic. And that means the same time having sex, there's just one word for sex and marriage. That brings us to the point that out of marriage, you should not have sex. So at this point, as much as we know that sexuality is something positive, you are not allowed to do that out of marriage. But this regulation was for the seventh century. And in this time, it was much better and safer for a woman to have sex when she's when she was married. You have to look at from this point of view.
Effy
Yeah, this is blowing my mind.
Jacqueline
I can't believe.
Effy
So there is some contradictory information out there. Some talk about that deeds, where it is said that a woman should always be willing to have sex with her husband, regardless of what she's doing cooking in the kitchen writing a camo. Essentially, if you say no to your husband, it will go to hell.
Seyran Ateş
So those are these, they grow after the Prophet died in a way and spirit in a way, very, very negatively. How the Prophet never ever practiced sex. So while he was living in short time, after his, his he that he died, the situation was much better for the whole community, then afterwards, afterwards, a lot of things changed because of the fight of power. So the follow up colleagues, they fight a lot, a lot against each other, because they want to be the leader of the whole Muslim community, the congregation and they fight for the leadership, and also changed a lot of things when it comes to human rights very negatively. So why we have the situation of sexuality against women. So bad right now, is more the patriarchy, thinking of the heritage of the prophet but not the Prophet himself.
Jacqueline
I think that's important to underscore that what I hear you saying is, there's a distinction between what is written in the Quran and the interpretation, and that interpretation is what what many people have an impression on it. Islam based on the interpretation, but not actually based on what is written in the Quran.
Seyran Ateş
Yes, absolutely. And this thing is also that you have always to see who's interpreting and who's doing the interpretation and where those scholars come from if they are Sunni or Shia or if they are always wanted different law schools in, in Islam, they also separated the community, they, at the same time, they also really separated and interpretated many things in a very crazy way and not equal way when it comes to gender.
Effy
So you speak of Islam, while Mohammed is alive and a charge, and then the changes after his death due to a power grab to lead the Muslim community, hashtag patriarchy. Mohammed is not only recognized as the bearer of God's word and the last prophet by the Muslims, but he's also a revered character in history known for his goodness and trustworthiness. However, what is not widely known is his relationship with his wife, a teacher, can you speak to this a little,
Seyran Ateş
the Prophet himself, who was really nice guy to his wife, he never beat them. He never was bad to them. So it's curious that this man who lived together with his hers, first wife, 25 years, and he was he was living monogram just with her. And he was younger than she was 15 years younger than his wife had teacher. And her teacher. She was part of the rich community in Mecca. She was a businesswoman. She was the employer of the Prophet. And he was working for her for many years, leading the caravans. And because he was a very trustful man, everybody called him the person whom you can trust. And he looked when he was 15 years, you're still not 25 years old. And she was 14, when she asked him to marry him to marry her. She asked him to marry her. She said, I'm in love with you. Do you want to marry me? And this is also very well known. So everybody who's Muslim knows that. But they don't like to tell this story. And I'm curious. So as your podcast name is, I'm absolutely curious. And I asked all the people I met why we don't talk much more about this absolutely equal couple. This wonderful couple their role models for me. So for example, they are the role models on one side, why I'm still in my religion, because they practiced gender equality. And she was not a virgin. She had already two husbands before she married the Prophet. And so
I love this couple. I love her teacher because she was a businesswoman. She was the the person who paid for the congregation, the whole congregation, the Muslim congregation could grow, because she believed in him that he become a prophet. He thought he's going crazy. He said, he's losing his brain. He, he was really going to suicide thinking about suicide. And she said, No, you are not psychological, sick, you are not losing your brain. What happened to you? In the case when the angel Gabriel came to you, this is something big. You are somebody special, believing that you are a prophet. And then she turned to Islam, she was the first Muslim to profit is the profit. And she had teacher was the first Muslim in this world. She said, I believe in you, I believe in this religion, I believe that there's something new, and I will, I will join to this religion where you are the Prophet. So and this couple, they had just four girls No son, and after she died, he started having more several wives, like some people say 11 Some say 12. So he starts living polygon after she died, but while she was alive, and the Quran was sent to him Surah by Surah, and first by first she was on his side, giving him power, giving the money for the congregation, giving him the time and also protecting him against the society in Mecca where he was not really be laughed from the whole citizens. So what I want to tell you is that we have in sight, Islam and in the history of Islam, a couple, which started the religion, very gender equal, and honestly very, very serious and very full of love for each other as partners, and acceptance and a powerful woman. Without her we wouldn't have Islam.
Jacqueline
What do you think she would say about how Islam is currently used to press woman,
Seyran Ateş
she will not accept that she would take up all her power to change it. And this is what a lot of women are doing. We We love this couple, a lot, all the liberal Muslims, we love what they did for us as a couple, the Prophet and our teacher. And we tried to spread their heritage and we tried to be we are the followers of those sorts of souls in house of our legend. So this is what what we are doing and she would go crazy when she would see what happened to the woman for her as a business woman to have power to work to be independent and to be owners then trustful to each other. In, in tight marriage would be Yeah, it was important. So she would go crazy when she would see what happened, especially now in Iran and other countries where women are not allowed to drive a car or are railed our country controlled totally, and they are pressed in into the houses. I mean, she was one of the one and important top 10 persons independent from her agenda, she was one of the most important persons human beings in Mecca. So this is another story which is not told so much and teach us that much and, and curiously, also teach in, in universities, these are very important points where why I criticize the scholars, in universities and also the curricula, we should much more see that in inside Islam in in the history of Islam, we had a lot of enlightenment, we had a lot of fun, we had a lot of happiness and poetry in the sevens, eights, and nines and 10s alone century, it's not just that people start asking and looking for freedom and self self determination in sexuality just now in the 21st century.
Effy
So what I'm hearing you say is that Islam right now, where we are in history is seen from the lens of oppression and violence. And an average non Muslim walking down the road can only speak to the atrocities done in the name of Islam. But at its inception, and centuries after Islam was a religion under which the believers thrived. In contrast, of course, we have the current situation in Iran that you also mentioned, we've been following that very closely. For those who are interested, I've been impressed with the BBC has coverage of the protests in Iran. There's been consistent and accurate reporting on the BBC front page, they've not let it blend into the noise and forgotten just yet, given how current the situation is, can you speak to what's happening in Iran and how the missiles misinterpretation of the Islamic scripture, and the Sharia law is used to oppress women.
Seyran Ateş
I mean, when we talk about misinterpretation, so our opponents would say, you are misinterpret the situation. So this is this is sometimes really difficult to to use those words. But on the other side, is like this, that the Quran is not easy to read. It's an old language, and we have to interpret a lot of things. So, you can say, we have this holy book and you can interpret it in this way or in this way, but there are also some facts, which nobody can deny. As I mentioned, you cannot deny that her teacher was a businesswoman and she was 15 years old and she asked him to marry him. So these are things you cannot deny. So starting from this point, we have a religion which is much more gender equal, much more human rights and universal concentrated so why in Iran On Now people think they have to cover by forcing women. And they have to forbid women, many rights, what they give to man. So how it comes that beginning from this couple from this prophet who never ever treated women like that societies by law are treating women so bad? That the answer is that it's about patriarchy. And it's about just about hate against women. And it's about power, you can have power just if you control others, you can have power by money, you but you can, in politics, speaking, you can just have power if you control other people. And to control the body is the easiest way, and to control the body by mortality. And I mean, they call this modesty, you know, they call it what is this? I think it's not modesty, it's abusing the society. So controlling through modesty and morality is and belief and the face is so easy for those authorities. Therefore, after the Prophet died, the kalam they started fighting against each other, and killed each other. Who was who's now to decide who is now the leader of the community. And then what happened is that the men who came later after all the men coming after the Prophet died, all of them were just really how you can how you can see Chuck Bassett, very simple, yeah, just as just as simple human beings, who are just looking for power, very, very simple thing, and for power and controlling the society and money. So at the end, if you have too much people discussing power, you cannot control them that much. If you put half of the population inside the house, we just have to discuss the rest was the same gender, it's easier. So women are curious, stretch. So put the woman in the house, and you have to control them. Because they are they should clean the house, they should get the babies, they grew up the kids. So it's very easy in this patriarchal system to say, so whom we should put in the house, and who should have power and to not so patriarchal thinking it's very easy. We have to control the women, we have to put them in the house. And the Khalifa. The second one said, Omar, he said, The best mosque for the women is the house inside the house. So if you speak like that, I think they hate women. They want to control them, they just see them as buddies, they just see them as their slaves. And sir, they need them just for service when it comes for their house cleaning and when it comes to sex, it's just giving service for those men.
Effy
Yeah, and also a way to control the bloodlines, right? Like that's every religion is done totally. The women, you control the bloodlines?
Seyran Ateş
Totally. So you never know if you are the father of this kid. So you'd never know, to control that, to really try to control that 100% The easiest way is to lock the woman inside the house. And they cannot go out if you are just the one who who sharing the bat and who sharing the house with her. She has no chance to get the baby from somebody else.
Jacqueline
Can you connect the dots then between what you're describing and what headscarves represent now in the protests in Iran, because it sounds like it is a manifestation of all of these frustrations that you're naming.
Seyran Ateş
A lot of people discuss the headscarf just as a religious symbol and say that women can wear the headscarf by free will because they want to wear that and they want to be free to decide if they want to wear the headscarf or not. We just speak about this issue on the surface. You know we don't talk about the motivation. And I would love to talk about the motivation. And I would love to talk about the reason why covering the Women is mentioned in the Quran. but never ever was written down that the women should wear a headscarf outside the house like the hijab, etc. This is not a clear declaration, it's not a clear sentence, you cannot find something very clear and directly written down so that we don't, that we wouldn't need interpretations. The only thing what you can find in Quran is that men and women, they should cover their special parts of the body, that they should not be too much sexualized outside the house in Publix. The motivation behind the idea to cover the woman is that the argumentation especially is men cannot control their sexual emotions and their feelings. And because the hair and the body of the woman is always sexualized, so they have to cover themselves otherwise, the man cannot control themselves and be concentrated in India, issues of religions on the rug what they have to do, because the men are not able to control themselves.
Jacqueline
What would you say is the social and interpersonal implication of gender segregation and keeping women oppressed and the feminine figure out of sight,
Seyran Ateş
if you grow up in a society where the genders are always separated, and we can say it's a kind of gender apartheid, if you grow up in a family or in a society in Publix, we're always women and men are separated. So you never ever really learn how to deal with each other. But at the same time, as we know very natural, we have feelings for the other gender for or for other people, especially when the patriarchy is starting with the idea that everybody should be just heterosexual. So that means we are living in a heterosexual society, that means men and women are always interested in each other. So starting from this point, if they are totally interested in each other, so why you are separating them, because you want to control their sexuality, you want them to do sex, just in regular situations, like being married. So if you now don't never, ever learn to, to deal with the other gender, then thinking, Okay, if I, as a man or meet the other gender, and if I like him or her, and my feelings are like, very sexualized, that means I have to marry this person, when I marry him or her, I can have sex with them. If this is just the agenda for a society, you will have to separate people. And you cannot talk with those people who think that men and women always want to have sex with each other when they meet, because they are controlled all the time, you cannot argue that it's possible to be as well not woman along with the other person in this room and don't want to have sex. So the the motivation, if you say Not everybody wants to have sex with everybody, if they are in the song. So, this is something what they cannot imagine because they learned from the very early point in their life, that men and women always want to have sex together. And that brings us to very curious situation if they have never ever made those experiences with the other gender, they are not able to be really relaxed with each other. And many times I think that these are just advanced arguments because the leaders of source systems like the mullahs liked in Saudi Arabia, the King family, I mean, they know that this is not really normal, what they're doing they know that they know by themselves and in their families, they know that they studied in Western countries. So they know this is so stupid to control the society this way and also the mullah stay, no, this is so totally crazy to cover all the woman in this country and sexualize them this is what happened the other way around. If you cover them, do you sexualize them much more you sexualize the whole day of those people? So they needed for their power they need to sexualize and then to say you see there is a lot of sex or sexuality, so we have to control it. It's, it's like it's going up, you know, always if you if you bring those feelings into society, and then you have your advanced arguments to say, you can see, look, there's a lot of services, if you leave them alone, they go crazy. So we have to cover them, we have to control them. If you do that as much as you control as much the people want to do something else. But this is, this is something what the malls like to have, they want to have, that the society is like cooking water, you know, to explore close to the exploit. If you have those relaxed, countries, like the northern countries in Europe, you know, you will have democracy, if you will have gender equality, if you would have relaxed relationships, if you will have people and citizens who are not every second thinking about sex, they will start thinking about more important things for the whole humanity. me maybe to win a Nobel Prize, maybe to do much more in science, maybe to do much more in sports. So if you go to have bad days, you will have freedom, you will have democracy, and you will have less control, less corruption. This is not what the multiverse wants to have
Jacqueline
was, right, keep folks distracted. So that this way they don't spend and invest time and energy into into thinking those things. It's interesting, because I think the irony is that there is then a culture of taking power from women. But it is rooted in the fact that women have all of this power, that you cannot one can't even control themselves around the power and beauty of a woman. So she has all of this power, we have to use our power to suppress her power. And you use the example of the water kind of bubbling up and boiling over and it feels like that's happening now with with the anger in the protests that it is now bubbling over.
Seyran Ateş
Yeah. And the power from this is really important brings us back to the start when I told you the story about a teacher. I mean, look, those men hate they hate powerful business woman, they had hate woman who writes books, they hate owner studies, they hate professors and universities, they hate them, because they are maybe smarter than themselves, they are afraid about the power of the woman. Those men are always afraid about the power of the woman, even when they have their moms at home, who are maybe more powerful than the fathers or they have, you know, so it's also the fear of the power of the women. They have to control this. It's control its power and control.
Jacqueline Misla
And your book is focused on the need for Islam to have a sexual revolution. And so I'm wondering if you can talk about what does that look like? What is a sexual revolution?
Seyran Ateş
When we look back to the 60s in Europe, Western Europe and western countries we can see we could be concede that the sexual revolution which was written down and described by Wareham high means that no institution, no religion, no leaders, no politician has the right to have any kind of influence and control of the bedroom of the people. So this is very private, nobody has the right to judge you. Nobody has the right to control and say how and with whom. And when you have to have sex and when you want to have sex and be a part of this very private and in team needs what people have. And starting from this point in the 60s. The use, especially the students start saying, I mean, is my decision with whom I want to have sex. And outside the marriage, especially in Europe, it was the same situation like we have now in Islamic countries that people were judged or they were discriminated and they were not really accepted when they had sex out of marriage. because not a lot. A lot of people forget that the situation in Western countries and in North America was the same like we have now in in Islamic countries that a woman couldn't rent an apartment herself or being a single mom was not easy. And so in the 60s, women and men start fighting for more gender equality, and the same time they fight fought for more freedom and self determination in society and towards the total illusion, not just mean, the act of having sex, sexual revolution means self determination means that everybody has the right to decide himself or herself, if they want to have sex with whom they want to have sex and where, and if they want to have sex inside or outside the marriage, so nobody has the right to know and control when you have sex. And sweets, etc. Revolution means not just in Iran and Islamic countries, go around and have sex wherever you can, just means that nobody has to talk in public and, and use everything and each relationship for for pressure and for controlling, using the need of sexuality, and means also having absolutely freedom in a way that we don't treat other people that when we use in our own freedom. So that means we would have democracy in our countries. This is sexual revolution.
Jacqueline
So what I'm hearing you say is that the idea of a sexual revolution is not about promoting promiscuity, but promoting self determination, starting with the freedom to choose who you have sex with. I think one of the ways in which you are practicing that, for example, is in your mosque, where you invite LGBTQ folks to come into community within the mosque. does the Quran say anything specifically about homosexuality?
Seyran Ateş
When we talk about homosexuality in Abrahamic religions, like Islam, land Christianity, as well, like in Islam, we are talking about the story of load.
Jacqueline
Yes, I know that story very well. The story of Lotte, as also known for many folks, as Sodom and Gomorrah, is often used to condemn homosexuality, even though a that is not the original language that's used in biblical text. And B, there's a lot more that's wrong with the story, in my opinion, okay. So basically, the way that I remember it is to angels go to the town of Sodom to visit lot, la invites them in for a feast, and to spend the night in his home. And after dinner, men of all ages crowd in front of lots house, demanding that he brings his two guests out so that they can all have sex with them a lot goes out and tries to negotiate with them and says that they can have sex with his virgin daughters instead. And they refuse. And so the angels bring lot back into the house. And then they blind all of the men in the crowd. And the angels tell a lot that He has to grab his family, and they have to leave because God is just going to destroy everything now. And so then the next morning, lot, and his wife and his daughter, they flee to a neighboring village, and God is raining fire and brimstone and just killing everyone and everything both in Sodom and Gomorrah. And then Lot's wife turns around to see the horror of the destruction. And God punishes her for turning around by turning her into a pillar of salt. Lat flees with his daughters into the hills, and his daughters who believed that now the world is destroyed, and that they are going to have to repopulate it, get their father drunk and take turns having sex with him, so that they can conceive his children. And somehow, that is I learned in in Christian faith, is the story around why homosexuality is wrong.
Seyran Ateş
It's always the same storytelling in Islam is What has that to do with homosexuality, if people want to rape people, I mean, this has to do with violence has to do with criminality, but nothing was homosexuality. And when we read the story of loads, so we could be can read in Quran that he said, Okay, why you don't take my daughters or you can have my daughters or why you don't take the women when you could? What is the right way to do and why you ask for demand? So these sentences are not so clear to say it's absolutely against homosexuality, because women are not mentioned. And other kinds of LGBTI co people are not mentioned. So if the Quran would be totally against homosexuality, what is a very modern term? If the Quran would describe that same gender sex or LGBTI coos forbidden then it should be much describe that much more in detail. So this is one argument why I said it's the same argument what the Christians and the Jewish people are also using are saying that it's not clear that it's it's totally against LG Bit ta cool because having sex is more than men and women, men and men, so they are much more. And when we talk about heterosexuality or homosexuality, there's much, much more. So it cannot be that the story of love is something against homosexuality, the story of Lourdes something against criminality, and treating guests bad. And so therefore, we say that love is how we started the acceptance campaign for the LGBT community. And why I opened the mosque is that men and women can pray together in the mosque, and then come back to the situation that everything is sexualized. Even in our mosque, when men and women pray together, people judge us for doing that. They interpreted that the man who pray very close to the very close to a woman cannot control himself having sexual fantasies, and cannot concentrate in his prey, because a woman is so close to him. And my argument is, I mean, you are so poor people, is your psychology so bad, and you're so sick in your mind that even in a mosque where you should be in a very spiritual mood. So if you don't control yourself in such a place, so what's wrong with you, not with the other one rafter is the woman close to you. I mean, this is really sad that we have the situation that men always most men always talk about women, as objects, which are always giving them sexual feelings. This is not acceptable. And this is something what the whole women's movement fought for, for centuries, don't see us just as object sexual objects.
Effy
I mean, what you've just really resonated with me that if you can't pray with a woman, near you, it's not about women, it's about your faith, there's like something is something is wrong with your faith, not the woman standing next to you. I think that's worth examining, you know, if you can't control yourself, even in the mosque, when you're in a spiritual place, when you're like praying, that you just so distracted by the woman next to you, you need to examine your faith, you know, not not sexuality as a whole, you know, totally.
Seyran Ateş
So if you pray in this moment, you should concentrate to yourself, and to your relationship in this moment. That means it's a very, very concentrated situation. And it's a kind of meditation, that you are not influenced and disturbed by any voice, and any behaving and nothing else. This is what I told those people, if you discuss with me the right way to be a Muslim. So how you pray, in my opinion, is wrong when you discuss with me that I'm doing something wrong. Because if we pray, we look down to our feet. So we are not allowed to look around. So you should be so concentrated, and be in meditation that you forget everything, everything else around, you should go away. So how it comes to still look to a woman and her back. I mean, why the voice of a woman influenced you in this moment where you should be in such a bubble. You know, I love the situation, being in the bubble. It's like yoga meditation. It's such a high concentration, what your usual tasks, while you practice practicing Islamic way of pray. So this is what I love. It's a kind of meditation. So look to your feet, look down, don't see around. And a lot of people discuss that. In this moment when you move your eyes up. And when you move your eyes around. In this moment, you have to stop your prey and start again, because it doesn't count your trade. This is what you can learn. It's the kinds of regulation you can read it in books. They teach that at madrasahs in schools in theological studies, they teach you the right way how to pray in Islam means all this concentrated, don't move your eyes around. So it comes to the point what you said, you know, it's up to you. It's your face. It's your view on your face. How you practice.
Effy
Yeah, I actually do love how the Muslim flip prayer is actually physical. Right you get on your mat and it does have a yoga esque style, like you get on your mat and you move, you go up, you go down, you go down to your feet and up again, and then you lose your left to your right. So it's actually an embodiment practice, if you can take the sort of the tension and the doctrine out of it. It is actually an embodiment practice that you're saying your mantras, are you saying your prayers, which are things that you repeat over and over again, which puts you into that meditative place, and you're moving in your body with it as well. So it's actually a movement meditation practice that is so spiritual and holy. And if you if you do it, if you do it, right, like any moving meditation practice, you shouldn't be in a bubble, and you should, you should be aware of what's around you, but not put your attention there. Right. That's what any minute any medicine will tell you. So it's actually kind of very high level, like, it's, it's very, it's teaching people to meditate and to be in their body to, you know, to be embodied, which are the big words that we use now. You know, seventh century, Islam kind of figured it out, right? Because God doesn't do that, like you sit in rows and you and like, it's hard to sit still and, and concentrate, and Islam came around and be like, You know what, this is really hard. So how about we, well, we just, like teach you some embodiment movements. And they get you to repeat the same prayers, which like melodic, and then you do that five times a day, and it's actually a great practice, you wouldn't judge anybody who meditates five times a day, I no one would be like, what you're doing that you would be like, You were amazing, you get to meditate five times a day. And Muslims do that, you know, and in community, they do that, which is huge.
Seyran Ateş
They are similarities between the way how we pray and yoga, for example, this is what you say, I can totally sign it up. And, and it's a way to have a positive relationship to your own body. It's another point sexuality is always accepting, you know, party, and not feel always ashamed about your party. I mean, patriarchal talking, and the patriarchy system, like to say to everything, what we are doing, are you shame on you, you know, so I buy Shame, shame, shame, every single shame, especially to the woman you have to, you have to shame because of your, of your breathing, you have to shame what your gender, your body, so you, you never, ever can learn to have a good relationship to your body, to love your body, but the positive intention. And so at the end, even when you pray, normally, it's a kind of contact and, and exercise to learn more about your party, because each in each age, and until when you got older and older you feel if you can do it so easy like you did when you are 10 and 20. So if you have this exercise, you can see that you need to exercise to go into it to be into a talk, it has so much positive sides. In this moment, you should be much more concentrate in yourself and your body and be laughs much more your body then look to another to your next neighbor and control them. Some women told me when they went to a mosque where men and women are separated, even though women control each other, that they said that one woman close to them, they start controlling them how they wear the headscarf and really touching them and saying, please control your headscarf and do it in a proper way. I mean, sorry, I'm here in the most they're just human around me and why you you are disturbed by some little pieces of my hair in the mosque. I mean, there are no Bre. Pray for yourself and let me pray my way you know what's wrong with you.
Jacqueline Misla
You've given some beautiful examples of things that we can do to start making the shift. And I'm wondering if there are other things that you would share other calls to action, what can be done to create the shift that's needed and to have the sexual revolution?
Seyran Ateş
We need marry more education and the way about issues what we talked about when we started I see how how surprised you were and these are just some very few things what I told you and they're much much more about dancing and laughing and about wine and about eating and having fun. You mean we really have a great history about input very, very positive movements inside Islam so
Effy
beautiful mysticism to
Seyran Ateş
the mysticism is fantastic, I love it. We have female Dervishes, for example in our mosques. So the same thing Know why people should not call you know why they should not do the damage done. Because man said it's the competition of the man. I mean, the it's the profession of them and this is this is their profession and but we have the same possibilities and abilities and why we are not allowed to do what we want to do. So I mean, I have my own borders, maybe I cannot fly to the moon, but I can write books and I can be a lawyer, so sorry, everybody should, to his ability, not to the gender. And it's not because of the gender. So we have female dervishes. And what we try to do in our mosque is for the next generation, please be much more, have much more self consciousness, be much more with yourself. Don't concentrate yourself too much to the other too much you you should be nice to your your neighbors. But start first with yourself with your party, be positive with yourself and look for the freedom and peace inside your self. And if you are very peaceful with yourself so you can be peaceful this others and this is what we want to teach this is what we are teaching and talking about. And that should be teach too much more for that reason I started education institution, and I'm dreaming and my next vision is to have a university for universal rights and fill universal scholars and so knowledge is very important and to discuss and spread all this knowledge. And at the end we are just little human human beings being here on this earth for just a little small time. So why we are concentrated so watch in other people sexology I mean
Jacqueline
if you want to learn more about say Rana Tisch, you can visit her website say Ron attention dot d find her on Instagram, say run attach underscore official and watch her documentary Saran attention, sex revolution and Islam. If you enjoyed this episode and want to have conversations with other foxy listeners, then head to our Facebook group. We are curious foxes. We've been updating our website to make it easier for you to find the blog posts and resources that you're curious about. So if you go to our website, we are curious foxes.com You'll find those blog posts and reading lists and past episodes and a lot more. To support the show and continue to indulge your curiosity join us on Patreon. At we are curious foxes where you can find many episodes podcast extras that couldn't make it to the show. And we're 50 videos from educator led workshops. If you have found this episode of funny, interesting, engaging helpful, please share our podcast with a friend quickly rate the show, leave a comment and subscribe on Apple podcast or follow us on Spotify and Stitcher. This will only take a few seconds of your time and will make a big impact for us. We've also added our content onto YouTube. You can find us on YouTube and subscribe and not only can you listen to the shows, but you can look at the gorgeous artwork that was chosen for each episode. And finally, let us know that you're listening by sharing a comment or a story or question. You can email us and send us a voice memo at listening and we are curious foxes.com Or you can record a question for the show by calling 646-450-9079 This episode is
Effy
produced by Effie blue and Jacqueline Muslim with help from Yama artisian. Our editor is Nina Pollack, In whom we have unshakable faith. Our intro music is composed by dev sahab we are so grateful for their work and we're grateful to you for listening as always Stay curious friends
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