Ep 144: Pain and Pleasure with Leigh Cowart

Illustration by the talented @pachutorresart

What is masochism and why do people engage in it? What is the difference between consenting to pain as a means to an end/ byproduct of an activity (e.g., ballerinas and competitive eaters) vs. pain on purpose? What are the benefits and the costs to pain as pleasure? What does masochism have to say about the human experience?

In this week’s episode, Effy and Jacqueline take a deep dive into pain for pleasure with science reporter, noted masochist and the author of Hurts So Good, Leigh Cowart. Leigh broadens our understanding of masochism by drawing parallels between the experience of people who pursue pain for sexual pleasure and those who endure pain for sense of satisfaction, achievement or self expression, such as competitive eaters, ultramarathon runners and ballet dancers. They normalize our desire for pleasure by offering an open and honest commentary of their own experiences.

To learn more about Leigh Cowart
Leigh Cowart is a researcher and journalist whose work has appeared in the Washington Post, New York Magazine, Popular Science, Buzzfeed News, Wired, and other outlets. Their book, "Hurts So Good: The Science and Culture of Pain on Purpose" has been featured in the New York Times, The New Yorker, NPR, the Wall Street Journal, and The New York Review of Books. Before becoming a journalist, Cowart was immersed in academia, doing research on subjects like sexual dimorphism in leaf-nosed bats, and resource allocation in flowers.

Instagram: @voraciousbrain
Twitter: @voraciousbrain
Book: Hurts So Good

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TRANSCRIPT:

Effy

Welcome to the curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.

Jacqueline

And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today we're talking about masochism, or deriving pleasure from physical or psychic pain or humiliation. As the saying goes, there can be no light without darkness. So does that also mean that there could be no pleasure without pain? To explore? We spoke with the author of hurt so good, the science and culture of pain on purpose. Hello,

Leigh

my name is Lee coward. I'm a science reporter and noted masochist.

Jacqueline

Lee has written about the various ways that people have experienced the combination of pleasure and pain.

Effy

masochism is named after the Austrian author La Paz one suck muscle, who wrote romantic novels expressing his masochistic fantasies. Today, masochism, along with sadism often mentioned together as sadomasochism is one of the pillars of BDSM. Though initially hard to wrap your head around, Lee believes that deriving pleasure from pain is not that alien to us when we broaden the experience to athletes, competitive eaters and ballerinas who endure pain as a part of their training and practice. So much so that the pain cannot be separated from the sense of achievement. By

Jacqueline

providing examples of everyday endurance of pain, Lee hopes to take the shame out of masochistic desires. As with many forms of kink, there is stigma about being a masochist or seeking out experiences that involve physical and psychic pain or humiliation. However, we all do things during sex that we may not want to talk about at the dinner table. Lee encourages that we stay open and curious to what brings us pleasure during sex. without judgment.

Effy

We started our chat by asking what masochism is and why people engage in it.

Leigh

masochism is the deliberate act of choosing to feel bad to feel better. And the word has an origin and a very specific sexual term that is named after a person the actually the author of Venus in Furs Leopold von Sachar Masak. So that's where sexual masochism comes from. But today, it's colloquially defined where like, we use it to describe everybody from grad students to chili pepper eaters to polar plungers. And it turns out once you start looking for the ways that people opt into aversive experiences, to get some kind of benefit, you realize that masochism is everywhere. Hmm,

Jacqueline

is there in your work kind of the distinction, because what I hear you saying is, there is pain on purpose. And then there's sometimes pain that is not maybe the means to the end, but a byproduct of what's so for example, you talk about competitive eaters. And I imagine that at the end of it, their goal is not to feel uncomfortable. But certainly discomfort is a part of the process. And so wondering about some of the nuances there between enduring pain in order to go through the experience of that arc that you talked about, and really seeking out that pain.

Leigh

I love this question, because it's very hard to answer. And that does make people feel kind of crazy. When they I cannot give them a straight answer on this. And that is why it is so fun. Because it is very hard to separate. What happens in your body after experiencing pain from the cerebral experience itself. So for example, when you eat an ice cream cone, you are opting in to you're deciding to do it, you're consenting to it, and that's creating context. But when you eat the ice cream, your body is doing this whole slurry of chemistry that's making you feel good. It's bringing up memories of all the other times you've had ice cream, and the sugar is hitting your bloodstream. And so you have this idea that you like ice cream, but what you're really saying is you like the experience of eating ice cream. So when people choose to do painful activities, it's like do they like just specifically the pain itself or Is it about the entire experience of the pain? And how might that experience be different if pain was not a part of it? And it's actually very hard to tease that out. Like when we see someone get an erotic spanking, we can be like, yes, they like this pain. But you talk to people like myself who are into erotic pain. And for a lot of people, yes, it's the pain, but it's also what comes next. It's the endorphins afterwards, it's the surrender. It's the connection to the partner. There are all of these other things that are happening in tandem with the nociceptors firing in your body. And you know, some people that they're like, Okay, well, I hate running. But I like how I feel afterwards. Well, the endorphin rush and the what's going on with your endocannabinoid system that happens after your run, you can't really separate that from the painful experience that gave you those endorphins. And without that pain, you wouldn't be there. And you are, in fact consenting to suffer in order to feel better. So there's this whole spectrum of people who are really like the sensation of pain, which actually is not me, right. I like how I feel after. And I like the thrill of pushing myself and I like kind of these other associational metrics to pain and surrender and resilience. But like, the actual sensation of pain is not really what I'm seeking, I'm seeking all of these things that come around it. And the balance is different for everyone. And this is challenging for some people to hear. I have found in reporting this book, there are some preconceived notions about what kind of people like pain. And so sometimes I would go talk to runners or athletes, in which suffering is much more dignified in their eyes, and I compare them to a sexual masochist, and there's some prickliness there. And then there's some desire to not be grouped with someone that they consider to be other, or deviant. And a lot of what my work does is show the commonality and the similarities in the ways that we use our bodies, to feel our feelings, have different feelings, have different experiences, and ultimately, use the chemistry available to us to feel better. For some people at sexual and for some people, it's not. But I will say it's a very exciting mess to study and look into.

Effy

Like, for me, the pain part. Isn't that exciting. But I am looking like I am I'm excited by endurance, right. Like that's, that's something that, you know, we were talking about, you know, just choking count, you know, we say like, this is choking pain. And I was suggesting actually, it is it's psychological pain, right? You might not like the physical physicality of choking might not hurt you. But the sensation I think hurts your psychology like hurts, hurts your mind because you think you're gonna die. And, you know, all the experience that goes with it. And I think when I look at those experiences, I think what I get kicked out of is the endurance, right? Not not the actual pain. And then I was reflecting like the whole sort of the erotic pain and the athletic pain. I started rowing this year. And we talk about pain. And I I love it as a sport for many, many reasons. It does require a lot of endurance. And one of the things that does do it, especially at the beginning is rip your hands apart. Right because of the way that you row and at the beginning you don't have your you don't know what you're doing. So you're gripping too hard. And like where your fingers meet your hand is like you essentially ripping that part apart and I had blisters on blisters. nothing fun about them. So that's as you were talking about athletes. I was like, am I seeking that pain? Like do I enjoy that my hands are hurting when when I'm rowing? I don't but I do get a kick out of being able to endure my my row that you know in my morning row regardless of how much pain I'm in, so that I kind of see the connections. Do you grow with other people? Yeah, in a team of four. There was such a cool study

Leigh

done with rowers about pain tolerance, and they were trying to figure out if being in They were looking at how being in a group changes your ability to endure pain. And they chose rowers for all the reasons you just listed. And they did find that the rowers in this study, were able to row harder and longer when they rode with other people. And I think that's really cool. Like when they were by themselves, it did not, they were not able to push themselves quite as far or take quite as much pain. But when you put them all together, because of group dynamics, and the way behavioral synchrony works in our bodies are so hyper social. And so yes, they found they use rowers for that study that showed that being in a group increases pain tolerance, and anyone who has like done a workout at home on YouTube versus a workout class in a studio can attest to that version. And I just think that's really neat. Yeah,

Effy

I would also wonder if that comes up, when you're when you are experiencing sexual pain in in community. So if you're in a kink dungeon, if you're at a sixth party that is kind of more on the kinky side. And if it's happening all around you, do you find yourself having a higher pain threshold, or, you know, a higher desire, you want to go longer, faster, harder, because you're in a group of people who are also experiencing

Leigh

this? Oh, that's definitely been my experience. Yeah, and you know, and bottoming at the same time with someone else with like us like the top, like hurting two bottoms. At the same time, there is something about the energy share between the two bottoms, the two people receiving the pain to submissives, there's something very unknowable and interior and personal about pain. And I think there's something to the fact that when another body is experiencing what you are, in terms of pain, you have this kind of pre lingual knowledge of sensation that the other body is experiencing as well. It's hard to describe to someone what standing in pointe shoes feels like, but another dancer knows what standing in pointe shoes feels like. And there's an intimacy in that knowledge. And I think that that's really special. And I think a lot of the shared pain and the way that being in pain, at the same time can bring people together relies on this kind of nonverbal knowledge of the body, that would be hard to explain to an outsider. I think that's really cool.

Jacqueline

Kind of shared pain amplifies the experience in some ways.

Leigh

And then also it amplifies it, but it also kind of mitigates it. Because you're not alone anymore. I was watching a television show based on entomologist Justin Schmidt's pain scale for insect stings, called the sting of the wild. And he got stung by so many things. And then he ranked them. And of course, this is a great source of fascination to me. I sat on a fire and nest once and oh my gosh. So then No, not that one. That was doing field research. And that was a surprise. But I did use principles of masochism to breathe through it and to remember that there's another side to it. But yeah, so this television show based on the sting scale, and in like the trailer for it, they showed one person being stung, and he was just like, he was an agony. And he said something to the effect of the only thing that would make this better is if you did to, like to the other person, like get stung to be there with me. And then in another clip, I saw one person was being stung, and he was biting his hand and rocking back and forth. And his partner next to him also started biting his hand and rocking back and forth with him mirroring his painful actions, even though in that case, his partner had not been been stung. To kind of like give that like I see you, I'm with you. I understand that you are in pain, and you are not alone in this. And that can be very powerful. Because it's a reminder that like the interior experience that you are having is knowable to other people, and it is witnessed, and that can take away a lot of the fear of this, this will never end I won't be able to get through this. I am alone in this those kinds of thoughts.

Effy

That's fascinating. Do you think that such connection occurs between the person who's inflicting the pain and who's receiving the pain? Because there is an exchange that I know that that's not the same as like you feel pain, I feel pain. Here we are united in pain. There is those still is there a type of intimacy that when you are the person inflicting a very specific type of pain to the other person and they're receiving it in the way that you're inflicting it because I full disclosure pain is not my thing, not in the physical pain. Not Like I don't like being slapped caned with older sort of physical pain triggers, like that's not an interesting, but psychological pain, for sure endurance for sure. But you know, I've been around enough people who are very, very particular about inflicting a very specific type of pain to a person who likes to receive a very specific type of pain. And I'm wondering whether there's some connection that way at all?

Leigh

Oh, I think very much so. And I will not play in a situation where that connection is not present. For me, it's very important. Well, first of all, I do not, I do not play with tops who haven't tried what they're dishing out. So if someone has a toy, they've never had it used on them, and they're using it on other people, like, that's not going to be a good match for me, because I need them to know exactly what they're giving me. And in terms of the energy exchange there, I find it to be very potent. And very centering, it really can really block out so much of the busy parts of my brain. At its core, it is a power exchange, and you can dress it up with pain, or with degradation or with bondage or whatever you're into. And it doesn't even have to it could be soft, you know, it could be gentle power exchange, those can be really difficult to receive, too, because we're not used to softness, a lot of us, but at its core, you have a power exchange, and it requires a give and take, because at any point, the person on the receiving end or the top could stop, generally speaking, it is the person receiving the pain, that controls the pace, when to stop, red, yellow, green, those kinds of things. Since the person consenting to the pain has created a container to experience it by giving their consent, the top is simultaneously pushing them, while also paying very close attention to where they are, how close they are to the edge and what's going on in their body. And it's very beautiful to me, it's very much like dance, it's a partner activity, and there's really no passive partner in it. Even if the person on the receiving end is not moving or tied up, it's still a very active engagement. And that energy is going back and forth between the two people who are playing. And, yeah, it's such an interesting way to use sensation and consent to create intensity. And for a lot of people transcendence. It's very hard to think about your taxes, or your drippy faucet, or your to do list when you are feeling something as singular and focusing as pain. And when you have someone else overseeing your pain, watching you and paying very close attention to your body, and the sensations that they are putting into your body. It creates a little like bubble of trust. And it's almost outside of time. It's just the thing that exists in this ephemeral way, just for a moment to allow for release and connection. And it very much requires active give and take with both partners. Hmm.

Jacqueline

I noticed that you use the word tarp. And I'm interested in if there's a distinction between a tarp and a sadist in this exchange,

Leigh

oh, yes, yes, tarp is, is a broad umbrella term. I mean, you could be a sadist and a bottom, a status specifically as someone who gets pleasure from doling out pain. And it would have been more precise for me to use statist in that particular example. But power exchanges can happen without pain. And so that's why I was using top because these power exchanges do not always require physical suffering in order to happen. They can happen absent that and do all the time.

Jacqueline

Yeah, I would love to explore that a little bit, because I know that we've been talking about the physical pain but you've referenced for example, segregation is one of the examples that you gave, can you talk a little bit about physical pain, but also the emotional pain or psychological pain, that might be something that is a part of this feeling bad and then better arc?

Effy

Also, it's worth explaining the top and the bottom terminologies since we went there to the top is essentially the doer, and bottom is the receiver. And then they're kind of broad. They're a little broad umbrellas, right? And then within that you have your flavor of how you do the thing, right? So you can you can be a top and a sadist means that you're doing the doing and you're enjoying inflicting pain, right? Those are sort of separate. They're separate identities are separate ways of being so I just wanted to like put it in there. So we explain all of this and then yeah, go back to Jackie's Great question.

Leigh

Yes. And you know, to that two status can play together as well. You know, there's all flavors three status, you know, but yeah, Yes, that is a good good clarification. So, I do like to point out with before I get into the emotional sides of things that emotions are physical, they are of your body, they I do not believe in a mind body split, right you are as you are your mind as much as you are your body, and the emotions are coming from inside the house, they are a property of you, it is not something that exists outside of you, it is your animal body, experiencing the world, and emotion. So emotions are very physical, and they hurt for real, you know, and you have you're heartbroken, it feels bad, it feels like pain, it does not feel like nociceptive pain. And when I talk about the nociceptors, those are the neurons in your skin that can send danger signals to your brain to be interpreted. And then your brain listens to the nociceptors and goes, Hmm, something is happening. And where am I and do I expect this. And then at that point, your brain creates the sensation of pain for you. There is not like a one to one or any quantifiable ratio from sensation in the skin to experience in the brain. Your brain does that fresh every time. And it makes it difficult to know what somebody's feeling because it is so contextual. Like there's a great story in my book about a researcher who was bit by a deadly snake. But he did not know it. Because he was hiking and his brain felt the touch on the leg and assumed it was a stick and just was like whatever it was probably a stick. Later he collapsed and survived. But because he didn't know he was being bit by a snake his brain did not give him 10 out of 10 pain. The next time he goes hiking, he gets touched by a stick his brain drops him immediately and gives them 10 out of 10 pain for a stick. Because his brain learned the great lesson of last time and over compensated.

Effy

That's fascinating, right? It's so I mean, it's so cool how

Leigh

truly contextual pain is. For us. It's different every time. It depends on so many factors. Like if you're anticipating something that's going to hurt more. And so coming back to emotions and being of the body we carry with us pain and painful memories and things that hurt. And sometimes a wound needs to be seen and looked at and touched. So being able to play with painful emotions in a safe space can give us new context for an experience that before was maybe too painful to look at or dwell on. And it's a way to reframe something that hurts into real into something that is fun. And oftentimes the dichotomy of doing something taboo, like this should make me feel really bad. This person's calling me really mean names, but I love this person and I'm sexually aroused right now. It can be really fun to kind of mix and match those things and, and understand something painful in a new way. It also just like taboo is fun, right? It's something that feels naughty can for a lot of people can put you in the mindset of sex because there we get conflicting messages about sex itself. Right. So the researcher who is considered the kind of father of the theory of benign masochism, Dr. Paul rosin, benign masochism is like the counter to sexual masochism, we know we have an idea of the sexual masochist. And we have like a picture in our head of what we think that is, but there are so many forms of masochism that do not involve sexual arousal. And so Dr. Rosin studied hot peppers and sad movies, people who put on sad music to cry on purpose. People who are in a bad mood, who were like, I'm going to watch a movie that I know is going to make me cry my eyes out. And that is absolutely a type of masochism. Because what you're doing is opting in to something difficult. So you can feel better after catharsis so you can feel better afterwards. Like, I'm going to listen to a sad song. I'm going to cry for five minutes straight. And then I'm going to feel better even though that was difficult for me. And so that's absolutely just as masochistic as peppers running ice water sex with spanking, you got it.

Effy

There is research that shows the pain receptors lighting up in the brain, when inflicted psychological pain like memories of heartbreak, difficult trauma, all that. There is there are there are plenty of research done on CAT scans where they look at you know, if you were hit physically, you experienced traumatic memories or heartbreak just to say The same part of the brain lights up. Right? So that tells us like, the part that the brain that says Pain is pain. Just pick the just decides decides what it is.

Leigh

Yes. And we use like, think about the language we use for like receiving bad news or having our heart broken, like kicked in the stomach. I felt, you know, like a hit me like a ton of bricks. These are painful things that we're describing. And because they are our brain recognizes these things as pain.

Jacqueline

Yeah, I'm interested, you know, you noted when you're particularly when you're giving the running example, right, and that's kind of dignified pain, that there are value judgments and shame potentially around sexual masochism. And so can you talk a little bit about that in the spirit of normalizing it? What are some of the costs but also the benefits to pain on purpose, particularly within sexual environment and kink scenes?

Leigh

Oh, yes. I'll start by saying that painful desire and painful sensation during sex is very, very normal. It is taboo. And part of that, like I mentioned earlier, has to do with the origin of the word. It was named after a Leopold von Saccharomyces Salk. And it was put into what is essentially the first European text about sexual pathology, psychopath to sexuality. And so right out the gate, we've pathologized we've pathologized wanting pain during sex. But you know, years later, Kinsey found that about half of the people he polled liked being bitten during sex. So like, obviously, this is not a fringe thing. This is very common. You know, pain itself can cause endorphin release, it can like the, you know, endorphin is a portmanteau of endogenous morphine, which is to say, like the drugs are coming from inside the house, like you're making them. And pain is one of the ways that we can do that. Pain, also, you know, brings us into the present moment, but it also can kind of inflate or expand our idea of what the payoff is. So, you know, like, the military trainees know this frat hazers know this, ballet teachers know this, if you suffer more in pursuit of something, you will automatically think that the reward you're going to get is better, you will inflate your idea of the reward because you're suffering to get it, you see this and some of the suffering saints that I write about in the book as well. So there's this idea that pain brings something else to the moment it brings you, if there's a transcendent element, there's also an immediacy. And it's a very powerful tool to say to your brain, something important is happening here. So this is important. Pay attention to this. And, and it's also just fun to see what your body can do. We, you know, there are similarities with us, but we all come to each experience with their own expectations, and history, and memory and bodies. So playing with high sensation during sex, for many people, seems very appealing. And there's a whole sliding scale of how much high sensation people like during sex, just like showers just like meals, you know, some people like super spicy food, or super hot showers or super violent sex. Because there's a lot of baggage around sex and desire and sex and who was allowed to want what and when people can get all twisted up and shamed.

Effy

Also, I think some masochism is socially sanctioned, right. We talked about workaholic. We talked about, you know, athletes and ballerinas like there's a lot of masochism, that is socially accepted, even celebrated. And I think, of course, when you apply the same experience to sex, it's taboo and stigmatized and the worst thing in the world, but I don't think is if you think about the broader definition of masochism, not just sexual, erotic Marek masochism, like you said, it's everywhere. It's just in sanctions and places and and sort of taboo and other ones. Yes.

Jacqueline

Well, even if we have a question for that, too, because it feels like so I'm thinking about examples of let's say, someone has sex with someone and they're like, you know, I really tore her up. There is a boasting around the infliction of pain, but not like man, I went in there and asked to be torn up, right? Like that part, I think, is the distinction of like, the desiring of pain seems to that's where the stigma is. but engaging in sex and saying, Well, she couldn't even walk afterwards like that gets Pat's on the back. Like there's something about, you know, it was so much that the person couldn't take it, that's socially acceptable. But wanting to be in that in that exchange is something that I feel like there's some stigma around.

Leigh

Oh, yeah. You know, I think a lot of that has to do with power structures in society, who is allowed to hold power? Who does hold power, and what it means to kind of societal expectations of what submissive or a masochist or a bottom is. And I think part of that has to do with the misconception that the person on the receiving end is not in control.

Effy

Right. And they don't have power. Actually, technically, they hold all the power, right, right. In a kink scene, the bottom holds all the power.

Leigh

Yes. And so the misconceptions about about the nature of SM, might inform that. But also, you know, the idea that powerful people can never be vulnerable to spirit, the brutal idea of power and what it means to hold power over others, and how it cannot be transferred back and forth. There's this idea that being a masochistic bottom is like, maybe easy, or like, they're like, actually, like it degrades their perception of that person, because you're like, why would that person submit to that? That's that, like, they're like, that's so fucked up. Why would anybody do that? And then go for a 50 mile run? And I'm like, yeah. You know, and like, that's so cool that you run that far. And it's also it's so fun for me to go, do masochistic shirt with my friends like, but people get very tied up in what others might think or project on to their activities, and preconceived notions about what types of people like certain types of things. And, you know, a lot of this has to do with like patriarchal hetero, compulsive heterosexuality, and the way that correct relationships, quote, unquote, correct relationships are shown in the culture, who's supposed to have the power, who's supposed to be submissive, and what that says about the two people involved, when really like, it's such a fun and messy spectrum of all sorts of things. And that can be challenging to unpack in some people, when they realize that they are just as capable of receiving as they are giving. And, and what does that say about the structures of power that we've set up in our culture? Yeah,

Jacqueline

I'm wondering, I mean, certainly apart from the social stigma, what is your research shown about the other costs of pain on purpose? Hmm?

Leigh

Well, it really depends on how you do it. Obviously, if you are seeking pain regularly, you need to check in with yourself about your motivations, and are you safe, and I am I making choices that are going to cause log long term damage. And if I want that, unpack that, too, there is a long and very slippery slope between healthy pain on purpose and self harm that is damaging to the body and to the psyche. And I've been all over this particular slippery slope over the course of my life, and struggled with self harm, and near deadly eating disorder, and all of the fallout from ballet. So I think a lot about this question of how do we know what we're doing is safe, and okay for us? And that's a moving target. You want to think about? Like, obviously, we have bodily safety? Am I doing something that endangers my life? Am I doing something that will that may cause permanent damage to my body? Am I being reckless, I'm actually not paying attention to the potential fallout from these acts. And can I trust myself and at my play partners, to be as invested in my safety as I am. There's also the emotional check ins. If I am in a really, really bad mood, that might not be the safest time for me to play. Because I might not be able to feel my physical boundaries as strongly or as clearly because I'm trying to dissociate too much, or I'm really trying to do full escapism. Now, I do have people that I can play with that I can be like, I'm having a really bad day. I want to vacation. I want to go to subspace and trust myself, to be with honest with them, trust them to pay attention to me, and we can play in that way. But that is a very special relationship that took me a long time to cultivate I think being first and foremost, being gentle and curious with yourself about what you want and what you really feel. There's so much shame around self harm around freaky sex around feeling bad about yourself that it can be hard to reflect honestly about where we are. But I don't think that we should let shame muddy the waters of self reflection. And we are taught to stand in such harsh judgment of ourselves and others. And it can be hard to really come home and sit with yourself and be like, Hey, what's going on. But I think that's really precious and important work. And what I was trying to do with this book is just tell people to breathe, and that it's okay, like, we all have our shit, none of us really have it together, it is good to be curious about yourself, and not to rush to judgment or condemnation. Something that really helped me was when I had in my early 20s, a therapist who was more curious about my sensation, seeking behaviors, then telling me just to stop. So at that time, I was cutting. And when I wanted to stop, it was dangerous. And it was causing me additional psychic pain. But what I was doing is I was trying to manage my psychic pain, with physical pain, it was an attempt to stay, it was an attempt to get through it. And when we can start to view those harmful acts as an attempt to manage emotional pain, we can start to say like, Okay, well, what were you getting out of it? What can we replace that with? What are some other things that we could bring in, that would allow you release without damage and danger? And those, to me, are the steps out of that kind of compulsive behavior, the ability to say, why are you doing this? What are you getting out of it? And why do you think that you need it? So that's the short version of the wind genomatica is if it's not good for you talk, there's a longer chapter on it in the book, but it really just starts with being honest with yourself, without being mad at yourself, which is hard.

Effy

Yeah, for sure. Isn't there a different difference also, when you're self harming, that it is a self harm is a solo activity, which is actually sort of disconnected activity, you're, you're you're in European, you're trying to self manage your pain, pain, psychic pain, through physical pain. And when you're actually looking at that seeking those sensations in in a healthy, safe, sane and consensual kink dynamic, you are actually now in connection, and we know that actually connection is healing, right? So isn't there something around soft, the self harm is a disconnecting activity, whereas actually exploring the stuff in a scene with a partner has that connection, which can both give you the sensation and also the connection that can heal plus the control of the situation, which I think is also the the additional side to that. So isn't it feels like to me, like there's those kinds of two distinction, like connect being connected and being disconnected while you're seeking pain for either pleasure? Or to suit us for soothing?

Leigh

Yeah, I think that, you know, I always like to point out that SM isn't therapy. But people often find that they get more out of it than than they were expecting or not, you know, it's totally, it's a real mixed bag. So I like to tread lightly around talking about healing. When I talk about SM, for me, it has been but I also do a ton of therapy and it's part of a much bigger thing. Or it's part of the the whole context of my life. Looking at the difference between being in isolation and being in connection. I agree with you, I think that those are those feel very different to the body, or to my body at least. And being in an ideal situation in a healthy kink situation. You have connection and back and forth and safety protocols. And someone there with you. Now in an unhealthy kink situation, and it could be very dangerous and unhealthy King situations can be like, I'm not going to sugarcoat it, you know, it's people playing at the edges of sensation can go poorly. Just like people in an MMA gym can take it too far. You know, if someone goes into an MMA gym and their training and they're like they had the worst day ever, and they don't tell their partner and they just beat the shit out of them and don't listen to their cues. Like that is a dangerous situation that resulted from non-communication during a painful Power Play scenario. And that's something that can happen in SM as well. Like, we talk so much about consent and procedure and things like this, because there is inherent danger in playing really hard, whether it's sexually, athletically or not, you know, like when you're pushing the body to its limits, you want to be as clear eyed and communicative as possible. And so exploring a painful sensation, on purpose in a safe container with someone you've talked about with in advance and have everything in place with is obviously going to feel very different than feeling overwhelmed and alone, and just you with no witnesses, and just your pain and inflicting pain on yourself. In that situation, like the emotional valence between the two feels very different to me. And certainly my experience of self harm, feels so very, very different than any of my experiences in SM, a totally different part of my brain. And because they had totally different contexts. One was a deliberate, premeditated, consensual act that brought me a lot of joy. And the other was an act of lonely desperation. For me, I'm not speaking for all people who have experienced this, I'm just talking about my own experiences in this realm. Because it can be very different for everyone. And so, as you can imagine, I get a lot of angry email. Because people, it's a challenging book to some people. So you know, I get emails about how, like, I am disgusting, and a terrible example and that I am a monster, because I like painful sensation, and that I should, you know, have the good sense to feel shame and keep it to myself. Because, how, how dare I talk about this out loud, I guess, and that I'm clearly still sick and fucked up. And I disagree. I disagree. I have been years learning how to regulate my nervous system, still working on that. But like, you know, recovering from C PTSD has been intense. I do have a lot of trauma. But my consensual pain activities these days, they bring me so much joy and connection. It's a hobby, it's like it's not it's not that serious, like it is something I love and choose to do and spend time doing. But it is not this compulsive, negative darkness in me that I feel like I have to purge or hide or there consumes me. It's fun. I do it because it's fun. And that is challenging for some people to understand. Because obviously, if I can do this kind of thing for fun in their eyes, I must still be so so fucked up. And like, I mean, we're all a little fucked up, let's be honest. But like, you know, this idea that I've actually faking my love of it faking my enjoyment. It's interesting to me, I think it says a lot more about the people who email me about it, then. You know, the projection emails are pretty powerful. But when you stop and ask yourself, like, what do I really like? And why do I like it? Sometimes the answers can surprise you. And by showing people that I'm okay being seen, and something that is considered to be taboo, or niche, or inappropriate, that challenges them as well. Because like, that, I would be okay with even starting this discussion. I grew up in a religious family. And I do think there are some, there's some like stubborn pushback to the silence, you know, things, things fester. Things fester, and they don't need to. It's masochism, very normal. And I know that people carry around their own shame about their desires in this area, because I've talked to so many of them. And all I'm trying to do with this work is shine some light and let people know that like it's okay. It's really not that weird. And it's okay to be curious about it. And it's okay to be curious with yourself. And you don't even really need to tell anyone what you find with your own internal curiosity. But you can if you want to, but you're not alone in these desires, and they don't make you bad. It's just a human thing. I think bringing it back to curiosity is so important. You know, I mean, Effy, you shared in your example the distinction between kind of self harm and a solo space and being with somebody else. And I know also though, that there are lots of times where we are in patterns of toxic relationships and other words that are really self harmful that we're in with other people. That's not happening alone. Yeah. But I think what I hear you saying is being curious about why am I putting myself in that situation? What

Jacqueline

is my intention? Is that the healthiest behavior in order to meet whatever need that it feels like? That's the exploration? Those are the questions to ask because it sounds like there's could be a fine line between, am I doing this because I really, truly don't like myself. And I believe that I deserve to be degraded, or am I doing this because it feels in this moment, fun to be in that position, and to let go and to give away my power, but really know that I have the power to give away my power in this moment, consensually, but it is because I have that power, that that line can feel really blurry. And in going back to what you just said, about curiosity, to sitting with yourself and really exploring, what do I want out of this? What is my intention? Why am I doing this? And that, that that journey will give some really important answers.

Leigh

Yeah, we know, we're not really indoctrinated into being curious about ourselves, we get a lot of messages about how we should feel and what we should want. I know I did, growing up who we should be what we should be doing. And I do believe it is a practice to learn how to be curious about what's really going on with you, and listen to the answers. Sometimes it's not the answer that you wanted. And sometimes it's not the answer that you expect. But the more that you can sit like with your body, and not in judgment. And be curious, I think the better suited you will be to create a life that feels good for you to live.

Jacqueline

I'm interested you reference at some point kind of this is a universal human experience, in some ways. Is there anything that in your research you've you've made the connection between? What does masochism have to say about our human experience?

Leigh

That's difficult to answer, because of the ubiquity of it. It's so woven into so many facets of our life, hot shower, nail biting, hot sauce on your eggs for breakfast, a spin class, you wear uncomfortable shoes to work, because they look good, and you want to feel good in those shoes, you know, there's all of these everyday steps of choosing these aversive experiences with a payoff that you're seeking. So really, I think it has the fact of masochism existence has something to say about how we seek and desire pleasure, because it's part of the same, it's part of the same emotional entity, right? If all you had all the time was pleasure, would you feel it? Would you notice it? You know, if it's like masochism, pain creates punctuation, to the kind of run on sentences of our lives. You know, it's a it has something to counter all of these other sensations that happens. It's like a It's a point of reference point. And an intensifier because our experience is not static. And we do crave highs and lows. We crave highs, but we don't get them if there aren't lows, you know. And so I think I am really interested in writing more about pleasure. Because the more I look into pleasure, the more I realize how similar it is to pain. It's context. Somebody don't like gives you a hug. You don't like it?

Effy

Sure. Yeah. And I love what you're saying about Would you feel pleasure if it was all pleasure at all times? And we know there's a word for that right? hedonic adaptation. Yes, like hedonic, like hedonism, like good times adaptation, the more you have good times you adapt to the good times, and those good times now become a baseline, and they're not good times anymore. Right? So that's what you're there for you just like throwing some painful experiences, you can that variety, will then actually kind of stop you from adapting and get you to experience pleasure more, rather than just like to adapt to it and make it your new normal. So I love that that's such a good as a good good, good way to look at it. Thank you.

Jacqueline

Thank you for your time today. We really appreciate

Leigh

thank you so much for having me.

Jacqueline

If you want to learn more about Lee coward, you can find them on Twitter and Instagram at voracious brain. If you've enjoyed the episode and you want to share stories of pleasure and pain, or if you want to connect with other foxy listeners, then Head to facebook and join our Facebook group at we are curious foxes. We have been updating our website to make it easier for you to find the blog posts and resources that you are curious about. You can find blog posts, reading lists, past episodes and so much more. At we are curious foxes.com If you'd like to support the show and continue to indulge your curiosity Then join us on Patreon. At we're curious foxes, where you can find many episodes podcast extras that couldn't make it to the show, and over 50 videos from educator led workshops. And if you found this episode to be interesting, funny or helpful, please share the podcast with a friend quickly rate the show, leave a comment, or subscribe on Apple podcast or follow us on Spotify and Stitcher. It's only going to take a few seconds of your time, but it's gonna have a big impact for us. And finally, let us know that you're listening by sharing a comment, story or question. You can email us or send us a voice memo to listening at we're curious foxnews.com

Effy

This episode is produced by Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla. With help from Yağmur Erkişi. Our editor is Nina Pollock, who turns the pain of producing into pure listening pleasure. Our intro music is composed by Dev Sahar. We are so grateful for that work. And we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic. We solely aim to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious and curious, curious, curious, stay curious. Stay curious.

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