Ep 150: Kink, Shame, and Sexual Healing with Rena Martine

artwork by the talented @rorymidhani

What’s kink and bdsm? How can we start a conversation with our partner(s) about exploring different sexual expressions? How can kink be a healing modality?

In this episode, Effy and Jacqueline are joined by Rena Martine to talk about how to explore the taboo in a healthy way. They discuss how kink can be therapeutic and share some resources on how to get started.

Mentioned in this episode:
BDSMTest.org
Lina Dune - Ask a Sub - Patreon
Sex and Psychology Podcast

Books:
Tell Me What You Want
Reclaiming Pleasure

More about Rena
Rena Martine was a Los Angeles County Deputy District Attorney for 14 years, where she specialized in sex crimes, child abuse and domestic violence cases. She continues to serve women today as an intimacy coach, educator, TEDx speaker and author, with a mission to help women love their bodies, experience deep intimacy and have great sex, shame-free. 

Instagram: _rena.martine_
Website: renamartine.com

TRANSCRIPT:

Rena Martine

Our fantasies, we don't pick them, we don't choose our kinks. And if we don't make friends with them, they become psychological preoccupations.

Effy

Welcome to the Curious Fox podcast, for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.

Jacqueline

And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today, we're talking about BDSM, and kink. Both the shame that exists around them, as well as their ability to heal.

Effy

Kink and BDSM are becoming more and more popular. As more and more people are talking about them. There are Netflix shows, Instagram accounts, and kink inspired fashion on the runways. But there's also still a ton of shame and stigma attached to having desires that are considered to be outside the norm. Whatever that means. Although kink can not only be fun and exciting, but also nourishing, affirming and healing. These stigmas can still make it hard to even start a conversation about it with our partners. So we were curious, what are some of the ways we can overcome these limitations? Lean into curiosity to discover how King can expand our sexual expression and provide a new level of connection with our partner partners, and even heal our traumas. To help us explore this we spoke to

Rena Martine

I'm Rena Martine, I'm a women's intimacy coach and former sex crimes prosecutor.

Jacqueline

During her 14 years as the Los Angeles County Deputy District Attorney, Rena specialized in sex crimes, child abuse and domestic violence cases. It was through this experience that Rena was able to see the impact that social stigma and shame had on the survivors of sexual assault. As an intimacy coach, educator, TEDx speaker and author, she now focuses her work on helping women love their bodies, experience deep intimacy, and have great sex shame free.

Effy

As always, we started at the top, we asked Rena what she thinks kink is.

Rena Martine

So I like to think of kink as the umbrella term. That's anything outside vanilla. And let's define vanilla for a second here because some people think vanilla means boring. No, vanilla does not mean boring. It just means not kinky. So vanilla is anything that's kind of on the standard menu of what you would expect in terms of sexual practices. And what's considered to be vanilla changes over time, as we, as a society start to become more familiar with with different sexual practices. So kink is just really anything outside traditional desires and fantasies outside the vanilla box. And it could even be anything outside the monogamous box, too. So anything that's kind of bucking the trend of what you would expect to be on offer, say if you go out on a first date with somebody who you met on a conventional dating app, that's the way I like to look at it. So that would be kink the broader umbrella term. Under that we have BDSM. And so let's go through all the different letters and they're the B stands for bondage, bondage. What does that mean? Bondage just means being restrained and having your senses restrained in some way. So that can be getting tied up, right? It can also just be having a blindfold on. That's a form of bondage because your your vision is being impaired. It can be using handcuffs, any sort of restraint would be bondage. The D stands for two things. It can either mean discipline, or domination. So discipline, meanings, some sort of impact play, for example, you've been a little naughty. So you're getting a spanking, domination, which, which I'll touch on a little bit more is a power differential between two people. So one person is acting as the submissive, the other is acting as as the dominant is perhaps getting giving orders leading the scene in some way. Really the shot caller in the bedroom And so as we kind of pivot into that s can stand for submission. So being the one on the receiving end, consensually, of course, of the domination of being told what to do of surrendering and just experiencing the sensations and the pleasure, it can also stand for, for sadism. So sadism and masochism, which are s&m refers to either a desire to inflict pain, or desire to receive pain. And there's a very wide spectrum when it comes to that. And obviously, we can go into what that looks like. But but that is BDSM, essentially, and a lot of folks I found have practice BDSM without even realizing it. So So I like to say, you know, have you ever been spanked or spanked a partner? Have you ever worn a blindfold? Have you ever called someone daddy in the bedroom? Okay, you have practice BDSM, even though you may not be thinking of it in those terms, this doesn't have to involve whips, and chains and 50 Shades of Grey and all of those things, right? It can just be really anything that involves some sort of power differential between the two people.

Effy

Could we say that? I mean, there is a school of thought that says there's always a power, dynamic and sex. Yes. So are we all kinky by default? And we're just not talking about it?

Rena Martine

Right? I mean, and I think it's a Lena dune of Aska sub who says something to that effect, right? There's always a power dynamic. And it's up to us whether we want to acknowledge it and call it what it is. I mean, yes, and no, I think within the purview of BDSM. It's a pre negotiated power dynamic. So you're not going into this wondering who's going to take control in the bedroom? I would say, Yeah, generally speaking, if we're talking about vanilla sex, maybe somebody's more the one in control, maybe one person is initiating, and so we would perceive that as being some level of power exchange. But the key difference to me is that within BDSM, there's typically a lot of talking that goes on beforehand, so that you can clearly establish what those rules are, what the boundaries are, what the safe words are. And safe word would be any word or term or hand gesture that you give to that indicates, okay, stop seeing kind of like the director's cut. And those aren't typically conversations that we're having in vanilla lands, necessarily. So I think that would be the big difference. And also, within any BDSM scene, there's typically going to be some element of play there, there's a pretend that tends to happen, where you understand that as a submissive, for example, I'm giving up I'm choosing to give up control in this scenario, but then I get it back at the end of it. And sometimes in non kinky relationships, yes, there is a power exchange in the bedroom. But it could be that there's actually a huge power differential in the relationship itself. And that that distinguishes, you know, this kind of default power differential that that could lead to, you know, an abusive relationship between one where we've pre negotiated those roles and expectations for one another.

Unknown Speaker

So what you shared earlier around, that folks may be engaged in kinky behavior without even knowing it. So if you've bought some furry handcuffs for Valentine's Day, or have done some roleplay in the bedroom, right, that that you may have been engaging in those things, if there's there is real stigma around identifying as having a kink. And so I'm interested in that around. Why do you think that it is for people to accept either their kinks or the kinks of their partners?

Rena Martine

I mean, up until just a few decades ago, it was considered mentally deviant, to be into BDSM. I mean, this was included within the DSM, which is it's funny, right? BDSM and DSM. And there especially if we look to cues that we got from mainstream media and entertainment, all talk about 50 Shades of Grey, for example, because that was the number one selling book of the last decade. I mean, let that sink in. But, um, that and movies like Secretary, what we find is that the protagonist, the person who's into BDSM, that they've had some sort of traumatic experience that explains why they're into it, which tends to perpetuate this myth that okay, even though we're not calling this a mental disorder anymore, you It's coming from some sort of abuse, it's coming from some sort of trauma. And the research and data simply does not support that. When we look at folks who are into BDSM, they make up a representative cross section of our society, there is no link between living with mental illness or surviving sexual trauma, and your interest in BDSM. There is no scientifically based link between those two, I want to make that very, very clear. But if you were getting all your information from movies, like 50 Shades of Grey, you would think, Oh, God, this person must be kind of fucked up. When in fact that that couldn't be further from the truth.

Effy

Yeah, that's super interesting. Do you think that shame comes into play with that, that sex is often is a source of shame, right? Where we're shamed for having sexuality for having desire for for choosing to explore erotic need, do you think that this also has an impact on, you know, kink and BDSM because it is an exploration, it's like, you get a kind of a whole past for the vanilla stuff. And maybe you find a way to navigate around shame, because you're staying within the prescriptive lines. And maybe you're like, Oh, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna kind of nudge my around shame. But when you're going into kink land, then there is no way to nudge that. And there's no way to dodge that.

Rena Martine

Yeah, I mean, shame shows up in so many ways when it comes to not just BDSM but but kink, which can include sexual fantasies that don't necessarily involve a power, dynamic. And gosh, Pandora's Box Shame, shame is kind of the line of work, and how I approach my coaching, right? Shame is the big thing for me. So shame can look like, say we're talking about women, shame can look like oh my gosh, I am such this powerful, assertive, badass bitch in my day to day life, what is wrong with me that I want somebody to kind of push me around and tell me what to do in the bedroom. And so what I say to those folks is it actually makes perfect sense why you would want that. If we can look at our fantasies and understand that those reveal what our emotional needs are. If you are making decisions all day outside of the home, it makes sense that you're fantasizing about something different, like, oh, gosh, can someone just take control here? I'm sick, making all right, I'm sick of making all these decisions. Say you are a sexual assault survivor. And you have I'm going to use the term rape fantasies and put in a huge asterisk near that, because they're not actual rape, fantasies, consensual non consent, forced seduction, that that's the term that we use, but people will think of them as rape fantasies. So I'm going to start there, those can be very, very troubling fantasies, especially if you have survived some sort of sexual assault. And I see when I teach classes on sexual fantasies and BDSM. That's normally the topic that no one raises their hand about, but they'll always send me a private message in the chat or send me a private message afterwards. Because it's troubling. It can be very troubling for us. So in order to normalize that, I'm like you FBI, like a lot of data science research and numbers, is I tell folks, you know, well, actually 53% of women have fantasized about some some sort of forced seduction fantasy, so you're actually in the majority. And then I can go through and explain why having these fantasies can actually be a source of healing, and healing the trauma that came along with the original sexual assault. So those are just a few ways that that shame shows up when it comes to kink or anything outside of the norm. And perhaps people have disclosed their kinks to folks in the past and received received a response coming from a place of judgment rather than a place of curiosity. And so that perpetuates this feeling like oh, well, I can't talk about this because last time I did, my partner shunned me for it. So might as well stay quiet. And our fantasies, we don't pick them. We don't choose our kinks. And if we don't make friends with them, they become psychological preoccupations. They're bad for us if we don't make friends with them. So I always encourage people to get Curious about the why behind the kink? What emotional need is that trying to meet? What are the ways I can meet that? And how can I start gently and safely making friends with that kink and, and exploring it a little bit you don't have to go dive right into it. But but I'm all about baby steps. And so whatever that case might be, I can give folks tools how to start gently exploring it.

Effy

Can you share with us what some of these tools are? Like? What are some of the basics that because our listeners, we know that are explorers, right? We know that our sponsor explores, I can guarantee there are people who are listening right now they're saying, Oh, what are those tools? I think I'm kinky I want to explore. So what can we what can we share with them?

Rena Martine

Sure. So first and foremost, if you think you might be kinky, go take the BDSM test BDSM test.org, go take that if you are partnered, have your partner or partners take that too. And you know, we love learning about ourselves. If you're sitting around and someone's reading their horoscope, the question you ask is okay, what does mine say? Right? We love those glimpses into our inner worlds. So take the test, figure out where you score on that. And compare notes, say you are an partnered or you're looking for a new play partner, and it comes back that you are super kinky, based on those results. What I'll tell folks sometimes is okay, take maybe the top five or 10 that show up on your results, and put those into your dating profile. Perhaps not if you're using eHarmony or match.com, or some of the big ones. But say you're on field, for example, which is the app I recommend most to people put those on there. Because a lot of folks think that they'll be able to have fulfilling sex lives. And or they wonder Wow, why isn't sex super exciting for me? We dive a bit deeper, and then we see oh, it's because you're actually super fucking kinky, and you never knew it. And then they can began exploring that. So that I would say is number one, take the test if your partner, have your partner, take the test. If you're single, put it front and center in terms of what you're looking for. But don't be afraid to say, you know, I'm, I'm a curious submissive, like, I'm new to this. I want to go into this slowly. So okay, next step, say you and your partner you both taking the test, you're or the three of you. However, many of you have taken this test. I don't want to be mono normative minor normative here. But where do you go from here? Well, the easiest way to start introducing a gentle power exchange in the bedroom, is with a sleep mask. Like the kind you use to block out the light. That is so simple, innocuous, it's not as scary as bringing in floggers and, and other kinds of hardware. And use that to practice surrendering control. And then from there, you can explore different levels, say you're curious about pain, you can start exploring different levels of pain just by using your hands. Before introducing any sort of pain implements, say what turns you on isn't necessarily the pain but being told what to do. You can tell your partner that I've worked with women will do something as simple as send a text to their partner, hey, tonight, at this time, I will be in the bedroom and I want you to come take me. So you're giving advanced consent and letting this person know one, this is what I'm looking for. And two, you have permission to come in and do this. And so it empowers both people. So those are some just general baseline tips I can start offering can obviously go deeper if if there's a specific kink that you want me to break down into beats, but those tend to cover a lot of of what people are curious about.

Unknown Speaker

I'm wondering if you can name some other kinks that you that may slide into your DMS and say I think I'm the only one that acts because to your point I think people are feeling that so so let Yeah, if you can share out what are some of the common things that you're hearing that your say absolutely you are not the only one?

Rena Martine

Yeah, I would say age play tends to be very troubling for people. And I don't get a lot of people who necessarily want to engage in like diaper play, for example or one person's Trying, pretending to be a big baby and, and is nonverbal and that type of thing. I don't see that that often not to say it doesn't exist, it is a perfectly normal kink. But this idea of wanting to be a good girl with some element of we're pretending that I'm younger than I actually am. That can be very disturbing or alarming for people. Because no one wants to be perceived as engaging in something that could be seen as pedophilia. Sure, perhaps incest. And so we look below and say, what's the emotional need here. And normally, what I tease out is, this is a need to be taken care of, I want to be nurtured and held, I'm not looking for someone to whip me and beat me, I want someone to take care of me and kind of introduce me to my body. There's that innocence component of it, which is I want to pretend like I don't know anything about my sexuality, and then have this trusted person, nurture me and explain it to me and help me explore it. So that would be a kink, that people have a very hard time saying out loud. But once we can dive a bit deeper, it makes sense. And it doesn't seem quite as creepy. And again, this is play this is pretend, as Dan Savage says, this is cops and robbers for grownups with your pants off, we are pretending here. Same with, you know, the force seduction or rape fantasies, those are not actual sexual assaults. When you are pretending to be a child or somebody younger than you actually are, you are not engaging in any sort of illegal act. This is pretend.

Effy

Yeah. And I think that's such an important message, I think. I mean, that is why, you know, the language around it's like play scenes, play partners play parties. And I think that, you know, we need to keep saying that to remind ourselves and everybody else that this is all pretend this is all play for adults. And as long as you are dealing with consenting adults, all you know, all is okay, as long as it's safe, sane and consensual, right? That's, that's the way it goes, allowing us to go to those places can actually be super healing. And I want to kind of ask you about that. How can kink be a healing modality,

Rena Martine

so many different ways. Let me start with this notion of opposite action. And I like to work in analogies. So I'm going to give you an analogy here, which is, say you got into a bad car accident on the freeway, or driving on the freeway, you get into a bad car accident, chances are the next time you get behind the wheel of a car, your body's not gonna be too happy your brain is trying to protect you. So instead of getting right back on the freeway, perhaps what you would do is just get behind the wheel of the car, but don't go anywhere. And the next day, get behind the wheel of the car, and maybe just drive around the block, right, and then the next time get on the freeway, but just for one exit, et cetera, et cetera. So every time you are getting behind the wheel of the car, and introducing opposite action, which is hey, I got behind the wheel, and nothing bad happened to me, you are creating new neural pathways that say, oh, it's actually saved, safe to drive. And when it comes to BDSM, say you have survived sexual trauma, what we can do is introduce this opposite action of okay, there was a situation before where there was a power differential that I didn't consent to. And so how can I rewrite that in a way where now I am consenting to it, and it's now safe. And this can look, I've seen it happen both ways, where the survivor of trauma assumes the more dominant role in the placing, which sends the opposite action that it rewrites the neural pathways to say, Oh, actually, I am allowed to be in control, or they choose to be submissive and not saying okay, well, last time this happened or when this when the traumatic event happens. I had no agency in that time. But this time, I'm in the director's chair. And I'm actually requesting that this be done to me. So that's one way in which it can be extremely healing. I've seen BDSM as a healing modality in action with a lot of my clients especially Those who suffered repeated sexual abuse as children and adolescence, it can be one of the quickest ways to put that trauma in its home, in your brain and to rewrite that, and these are typically women who've done a lot of talk therapy. But it's the action, it's the doing, it's doing something different that your brain likes the most, because that's what creates the deepest neural grooves there. But again, just with BDSM, even if we're not talking about extreme play and reenacting any sort of abuse here, just the level of communication that goes on outside of the bedroom to plan a scene. Just doing that and having your yeses and your nose honored, is healing. Because it's saying, wow, it's safe for me to be vulnerable. It's safe for me to share with people and when I say yes, it means something. When I say no, it means something. So as far as baby steps go, that is a huge baby step. It's just being able to talk about your wants, needs and desires outside of the bedroom first, with a person who's going to honor and respect those that says the world isn't this terrible place. I can trust people again,

Effy

music to my ears, and I think it's very understated under explored that kink is a healing modality. And like you, I've seen it in play. And I know it's super, super effective. I'm curious to whether what can we share around how to make sure that it's not re traumatizing? Right, I can feel it, there's a resistance to this idea of of kink being a healing modality because there's also a potential there to be re traumatizing. And I'm wondering if you can speak to how can we make sure, especially with people that, you know, we care for, and are doing it as a part of their healing journey, to make sure that we're not re traumatizing anyone.

Rena Martine

So here's the thing is, is that we don't actually want to avoid our triggers. And the really, the only way to heal from trauma is to confront our triggers and not avoid them. And so am I saying that you have to go from okay, I survived a rape. And now I want to reenact it. No, we want the baby steps in between. For example, I worked with a client who had suffered repeated abuse as a teenager with an authority figure in her life. And we started doing some self guided G rated touch, I like to say G rated touch because I'm not guiding them to do any sort of masturbation or anything like that. And she found that she was getting triggered anytime she would touch her own legs, because that's where her abuser would start was always with her legs. Similarly, I had a client who was abused by a family member as a young person. And she had triggers around her stomach area, and just her touching herself. She didn't want to be touched there. So what I had them do was create a practice. Okay, every day for a week, I want you to gently start touching that part of your body. And if you completely shut down, that's okay, stop and try again the next day. And over time, they were able to go a little bit longer and longer and longer and eventually send that new data that says, Okay, this part of my body isn't off limits anymore.

Unknown Speaker

It's part of me,

Rena Martine

I'm safe in it. And actually, it kind of feels good to touch it. So if there's a way to begin taking these baby steps on your own, that's really effective in terms of knowing that you're getting triggered, but not wanting to re traumatize. Again, we get into this bit of a paradox because you have to work through the trauma, you can't just avoid the triggers. You can't just say okay, I'm never gonna get behind the wheel of a car again, mean you could but not in Los Angeles where I live. You can't really do that. So how can you begin to reintroduce micro things that are perhaps going to push right up against that trigger, but also let you know that you're safe. I worked with someone who again, she had suffered repeated abuse by a family member and that typically looked like him performing oral sex on her as a child. And as a result, she didn't want her NOW husband who she loves and adores and has children with. She didn't want him to do that to her, because it was triggering for her. But we negotiated some, some roleplay for both of them to use. And she, she loves it. I mean, she got really into it. I think she chose that to be the CEO and that he was an employee and she was inviting him in for his annual review, which is kind of funny, because he does have a very high powered job. And, and he loved it. He thought it was so fun. And then she began ordering him to pleasure her. And so that was how it started. Was her saying, Okay, I'm going to tell you to start doing it. But she ultimately had the control, she could tell him to stop, too. So yes, we don't want to avoid the triggers. But we want to gently ease into them. That's incredibly helpful.

Unknown Speaker

Are there resources that you can point folks to books, websites, can chat groups in person groups, I imagined based on the need based on the kink, there's a bunch of different ways to for people to go but things that folks can start to explore either their kinks or healing, or just find community.

Rena Martine

Yeah, I'll go back to Lena dune to ask a sub. She has a fantastic Patreon community that you can join, there's courses in there that you can take. And she makes it very accessible. That's kind of why she rose in popularity is because she was looking around online, it was like, everything seems really scary having to do with BDSM, it's all black and it kind of dark and, and she wanted to make it more approachable, accessible, and even fun, and light. And so that's a good place to start. If you're curious to normalize your own sexual fantasies. I love the book, tell me what you want by Justin Lee Miller, his sex and psychology podcast is also fantastic. If you are the survivor of sexual trauma, and you're looking to bring more pleasure into your life, reclaiming pleasure by Holly Richmond is a great book that I recommends, I wish that I had more places to direct people when it comes to a neatly packaged resource on BDSM as a healing modality. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't want to touch that. I have a friend and colleague who's a PhD in trauma, she's a professor of it, she and I will teach workshops on BDSM as a healing modality. But to find literature that specifically addresses that is hard to do. It's scary for some people, even people who've written books about recovering from sexual trauma, they will not write about that in those books. They will perhaps touch on it if they're doing a podcast interview. But people don't like to put their name down to something that's on its surface could be perceived as Oh, my god, is this going to be very traumatizing? How can you recommend to people that they reenact consensual non consent, if they're the victims of sexual assault? So in a way, there's almost a shaming and fear happening in the academic community that I see around this, like, no one wants to talk about this. But there's such an inherent value to doing it. And I'm hoping that will change.

Effy

It's interesting, we just spoke to somebody who's doing research on sexual morality. And one of the things one of the factors that causes us demoralized sex is what they're calling paraphilic behavior, right. And then within that, you know, comes to portfolio meaning like different different things. And within that the big highlights and that is like bestiality and pedophilia and those kinds of things. And I was just curious, because I, I suspected kink and fetish and BDSM falls into that group. And she and she confirmed, right? So it's so that when we're thinking about sexuality, when we think about BDSM, and kink, on some level, we're putting it all together with bestiality and incest and, and pedophilia. So I can see why people won't want to touch it. If that's how we grouping things. Of course, you don't want to touch it, we just don't realize it doesn't belong in the same those things don't belong in the same box.

Rena Martine

Right? We're pathologizing something that is play. And and I'm, I'm glad you brought up this reality because there is a whole realm of power dynamic and kink play that that involves around pretending to be an animal like puppy play. And, you know, these are there are such safe ways to explore pretending to be something else. And as children, we did that a lot. We pretended a lot to be, you know, robbers or princesses or animals. And I think the world would be a much better place if we played more as adults, and and we're able to pretend more to

Effy

Sure, yeah. Well,

Unknown Speaker

thank you so much. Really appreciate your time. Appreciate the work that you're doing appreciate the resources that you shared. And I am going to right after this, go on to BDSM test.org. And I'm going to take the test, I'm going to take the quiz, I'm gonna send it out to my partners, and then we're gonna have a conversation.

Rena Martine

Yeah, and if you need help reading the tea leaves, as I like to say, feel free to hit me up. I've read through a few 100 BDSM results at this point. So if you have any questions, I'm here to support you. Fantastic. Thank you so much.

Jacqueline

For more from Rena Martine, you can visit her website, renamartine.com Or on Instagram @_rena.martine_ If you'd like to listen to more episodes on kink, or read our blog posts on the subject, then go to our website, click on sex in the upper navigation and then on kink to explore all of our content. You can visit our website for a variety topics under Love, Sex and Relationships. Just go to wearecuriousfoxes.com And if you want to weigh in on this topic, or connect with other foxy listeners, then Head to facebook and join our Facebook group @wearecuriousfoxes. If you found this or any of our episodes interesting or helpful, then please share our podcast with a friend. Quickly rate the show leave a comment subscribe on Apple, follow us on Spotify Stitcher. All of this is only going to take a few seconds of your time, but it will have a big impact for us. If you want to go a step further in support the show, then join us on Patreon. At we are curious foxes. You can find many episodes, podcasts extras that didn't make it to the show, and over 50 videos from educator led workshops. Go to patreon @wearecuriousfoxes. And finally, let us know that you're listening by sharing a comment story or question. You can email us or send us a voice memo to listening@wearecuriousfoxes.com

Effy

This episode is produced by Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla. With help from Yağmur Erkişi. Our editor is Nina Pollock. Our intro music is composed by Dev Sahar. We are so grateful for that work. And we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic. We solely aim to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends.

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