Ep 164: Hot and Healthy Hook Ups and Sexual Citizenship with Allison Moon

What is a hook up and why do people do it? How can we set things up for a hot, healthy, shame free hook ups? What is good etiquette when we engage in it?

In this week’s episode, Effy is joined by sex educator and author Allison Moon to discuss casual sex. They discuss hook-up culture and how we can and should “be excellent to each other” as members of a sexual community. Effy and Allison consider how we approach our casual sex partners can be a reflection of our humanity and what we can do as “sexual citizens” to reform hook-up culture.  

To learn more about Allison
Allison Moon is the author of five books including the instant classic sex-ed guide Girl Sex 101 and Getting It: A Guide to Hot, Healthy Hookups and Shame-Free Sex. She has been quoted in Cosmopolitan, New York magazine, and The Washington Post. A popular sex educator, Allison has presented her workshops — on strap-on sex, polyamory, sexual self-expression, erotica writing, and more — to thousands of people around the US and Canada. Inspired by her sex education work, Moon writes screenplays, stage plays, and teleplays that explore the complexities of identity, sexuality and desire,

Instagram: allison_moon
girlsex101.com

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TRANSCRIPT:

Effy

Welcome to the curious Fox podcast, for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue. And today, I'm joined by

Allison Moon

I'm Allison Moon. I'm a sex educator and the author of girl sex one on one and getting it A Guide to Healthy hookups and shame free sex.

Effy

I got to know Allison through her book, girl sex one on one. I came to my queerness later on in my life, and I felt very unskilled when it comes to women. By the time I was exploring my attraction to my own gender, I'd been having sex for decades, I'd become a relationship coach, a sex educator, and I was an active member of the sex positive community in New York City. I felt confident in those spaces. Well, as long as I was having sex with men, or in group settings where I wasn't really focusing on women, or anybody else, really, I yearn for intimacy with my own kind, but I felt lost. I felt like what I imagined a teenage boy would feel. Then, randomly one day at a festival, someone was passing around this big book with a colorful roadtrip themed cover, called goal sex one on one. When it landed on my lap, I was lated. Most books written about women's sexuality are written for men from a heteronormative point of view. I know this, because I've read most of them. They gave me information, but not understanding or confidence. This book was different. It spoke to me at that time in my life. I ordered it there and then so it would be waiting for me when I got home. For weeks after a clutched up book under my arm. It was under my bed under my pillow in the bathroom on my desk on the kitchen counter. My copies well worn at this point. It's annotated and highlighted and dog eared like any good reference book is. It has my name and email on the inside cover with a note that reads, If I lent this book to you, I expect it back. If you need your own copy, and can't afford it. I'll buy you one. You can't keep this one. Allison's latest book is called Getting it a guide to hot healthy hookups and shame free sex, where she covers all the bases of hookup culture. So that's where we started. I was curious about what Allison's take is on what a hookup is exactly.

Allison Moon

Well, I think there are as many definitions as there are people who engage in hookups but hookups in my mind are a form of casual sex, in which there are no expectations for a relationship beyond the engagement that you are having with that person at that time.

Effy

Okay, that makes a lot of sense. And then why do people engage in hookups like what is what is the drug? So we get told often that sex is best in relationships, and when there's like emotions involved? You know, that's kind of rhetoric out there in the world. I'm curious to why people would want to or why people do end up getting hookups.

Allison Moon

I mean, hookups peak, people use hookups for all sorts of different reasons. I think that there is just the fundamental biological reality of the fact that sexuality for most human beings is something we seek out and want. And oftentimes, if we are not in a relationship, we are denied that kind of sexual exploration, gratification, pleasure, joy, etc. So I like the idea of giving people permission to consider unlinking monogamous relationships and the sexual pleasure. And for a lot of people, we will engage in hookups to get over somebody or to on our way to find our forever person, right? So we can engage in casual sex in a way that gets us closer to relationships. But a lot of us also engage in sex outside of this idea of having to pursue monogamous relationships. And so I think for me, hookups can be a wonderful way for people to kind of decide what kind of relationships they even want, what kind of sex they even won. The very first chapter of getting it is a self assessment, teaching people how to really think thoughtfully about what kind of role they want sexuality to play in their life, and what kind of sex that they want and Life, I think most of us are never even given permission to think about those things, right? These this very heteronormative, this very monogamous normative world in which we live in, that we aren't really shown that there are options, we aren't really taught that you, you don't have to follow this script. And so I think one of the things that, you know, my queer identity gave me as well as, as soon as I realized that I wasn't heterosexual. I started also examining other paradigms that were given to me as though they were normal, natural, and the only way and I started deconstructing those as well. And one of those things I found was this notion of monogamous sexuality, that maybe not everybody wants that, and then maybe not everybody wants to pursue that, or maybe not everybody wants that all throughout their life, right? There are different ways in which we can get excited about sexuality, either within or outside of monogamous pairings. Absolutely, that

Effy

means so true to me. The idea is, once you start questioning, one thing that you've been told, is the truth. And then it when it isn't the sort of how that transpires into everything else, you know, and that kind of rolling downhill and you questioning everything, and hopefully, it really transpiring into discovery and insight and self knowledge and more full self expression definitely resonates with me, I do agree with you that we're often fed this kind of one size fits all narrative about this kind of stuff. I'm curious to what you think, what are some of the different discoveries people might find about themselves and their sexuality and what they want our relationship? Besides the one we get told, which is kind of heteronormative mono normative, this is your option. For people who do the assessment from the first book from the first chapter of your book? What are some of the discoveries people come up with just to give people like, a starting point? Sure.

Allison Moon

I think one of the things that is underrated, but at the same time, it kind of the crux of it all is variety. When you have sex with people, a lot of different kinds of people, you get to understand how a lot of different people enjoy sex, right? If you're with your high school sweetheart, and then you marry them in there with them for life, if that works for you, great, but that also gives you deep insight into one person. And I think a lot of the stereotypes people move through the world with as adults are based on this idea that everybody works the same way. And if you don't, you're broken, right, this idea that, you know, you're not supposed to enjoy pain, because pain is painful, and pleasure is good. So you know, the idea that if some people might enjoy pain with sex is anathema to those people, right? Whereas the more you start to get to know people to know how their bodies are put together, get to know how pleasure moves through them, get to know what turns them on, the more you get to be a more well rounded person by just knowing understanding more about the diversity of human sexuality. And then you can use all that stuff to get a better sense of your own sexuality. What do I like, what they like, do I want more of what they want? Or do that not really work for me? And I'm just gonna say, No, I'm not into that later. All of that's information, right. And that information can be used in all the ways that you want to integrate that into your your own sexual kind of mosaic. So I think for me that just understanding humanity is this really fundamental thing about exploring casual sex. And kind of as a side note, like this is one of the things I really love about like sex parties and orgies is even if you don't necessarily engage with sex with other people at those spaces. Just seeing how other people engage in sex with other people can be so illuminating, to just again, the beautiful mosaic of human sexuality. It's really, it's a deep profound education in what it means to be a human being. I mean, like, I know, that sounds really lofty. But I think it's important for us to acknowledge that this stuff is different for everyone. And the better we can get at understanding it, the more adaptable we can become as people and the more open minded we can be to humanity in general.

Effy

Honestly, I know you're saying it sounds lofty, but I think it's just sounds really accurate to me. And I really mean that, because one of the things that we say on the show is that I truly believe your sexual expression is a part of your self expression. And I think that's the case for all of us. And I've definitely felt like, as I've got to know, people, I have become curious about their sexual expression, as I got to know them, because I do think it's a part of their whole human existence. And in some cases, I was fortunate enough to explore and they wanted to sort of share that with me. In others, it just remained as a curiosity, but it is it is a big part of us and the way that we are in the world. And I think the fact that we can explore that is really exciting. And I cannot agree with you more on sex parties, because we don't get to see real sex really anywhere else. Very, very rarely unless we walk in into a room and by accident, we don't see real people having real sex. And really the only sex that we see is either Hollywood so you're looking hands and feets and like breath and sheets. We're looking at porn, which is like violence and for camera angles only and really for the for the male gaze only. So sex parties are Right, like you said, profound educational spaces where you can find you see the array and you see real pain, people having real sex and going after real pleasure without really thinking about anything else. So I do agree with you, for sure. So what do you think gets in the way of us all going out there and hooking up left, right and center? Because I agree with you, I think I think it's a great place of like insight and discovery and fun and joy. But why aren't we all doing it? Why are we not all out there on all the apps command center? Well,

Allison Moon

the main reasons and again, outside of the personal preference reasons, we I'm going to acknowledge that that's a real thing. But the larger reasons, the kind of more societal systemic reasons are shame, and external Shame, shame that is put upon us and internal Shame, shame that we have inside ourselves. And those things are obviously inextricably linked. Babies do not come out into the world ashamed of their bodies ashamed of sexuality, right? We that is something that we learn growing up in all, I mean, so many different societies, most of the societies around the world, right, like, there are some really beautiful beacons. But for the most part, every culture has its own version of kind of control via sex, right. So I think that we have to acknowledge where those lessons are coming from. And we start, I think, again, we have to start, like you mentioned us using curiosity, looking at our own biases, and looking at our own expectations around sexuality with a critical eye with a curious I, like, where did I learn this? Why am I afraid to get naked in front of this person? Why am I afraid of telling them what I want? Why am I afraid of even acknowledging to myself what I want, right? These lessons come from somewhere, they can come from the church, they can come from politics, they can come from carceral state, they can come from any different number of places. But I think the first step is to really start to pay attention to those lessons. You know, for me, I grew up in a pretty, you know, feminist in pretty liberal, like Midwest household, but I also went to Catholic church growing up, right. And so I definitely heard those messages. And my school, my public school was an abstinence only education. And then it moves slightly to abstinence is better education. But I did not get taught healthy relationship skills, I did not get taught how to treat my high school sweetheart, with love and respect as we were exploring sexuality together, right? Like that was something I had to figure out. And again, still, like I wanted to have sex without outside of marriage. I knew I was sexually precocious kid. But I didn't have a way of exploring that because my parents said, wait until marriage, and my school said, wait until marriage. And I thought, I don't know if I even want to get married period, let alone like so like, does that mean I'm never? Right. So basically, I had to I had to do that for myself, I had to kind of take that step to engage in sexuality with somebody that I liked when I was in high school, because I didn't have any healthy models for doing it. By it. Like no adults in my life, were telling me how to do it appropriately and safely. I had to figure it out for myself. And again, like, that's kind of my situation is among the better in our society, right? Like, I didn't grow up in a church that told me that like women are property right? Or that, you know, you have like, you're not allowed to be on birth control, because your body belongs to your husband, right? Like, I didn't get that lesson. But that lesson is pervasive. And that lesson is coming back with a great ferocity in American culture, for sure. So I think the best thing we can do is as we do these acts of self exploration is to really interrogate the sources of the shame lessons that we get, who's telling us that we shouldn't pursue the sex we want? And what is their agenda, right. And that kind of idea of like that anti trans backlash, we're living through that anti queer backlash that we're living through, it's a means of control, it's just a means of state control, which is always how it is. And the sexuality is one of these ways in which people can be free and can exist outside of capitalism. And at the same time, that's what it's very threatening to the state when we decide how to have babies and when when we decide how to have sex, and when when we decide how to create marital bonds, and when the state doesn't want us to decide for ourselves that wants to tell us how to do it. And that's so that's very threatening, but again, very lofty concepts, but this is all tied into just our the nature of humanity.

Effy

It just rings so true to me, our last episode was about masturbation and Jacqueline and I, my my co host and I, we were talking about why we masturbate and for me in that list, or near the top is, I do think is one of the most subversive acts that you can do. It is very anti capitalist, very anti consumerism, you owning your sexuality with your own body is one of the, you know, the subversive acts and sort of resistance to the status quo that you can do out there. I really I really believe that. So when you when I hear you say that I fully agree with you, I think I think definitely, you're right. Okay, so we've established that it's really shame and let's say we've got over that and we've, you know, re we looked at the messages that we got, and we somehow managed to get unlearn some stuff and rethink themselves reframe some stuff when we claimed our sexuality, we put ourselves out there. How can we actually set things up? So that we are having healthy shame free hookups? Because it is a wild wild west out there. I'm not gonna lie. The bars, you know, I think it's, you know, I think we shared similar ideology when it comes to sexuality and sexual expression and exploration. And then there's a truth that it is a wild wild west out there, especially if you are women identifying or trans or anything, that you're not a man that maybe it's kind of it is pretty rough out that. So how can we how can we set things up personally? And also, I'm interested in like, societally we have any comments on that so that we can be be out there for those who want it and can have healthy shame free hookups?

Allison Moon

Yeah, that's a great question. Because I think you're right, like a lot of people do all the work on themselves, but then they have to go out into that frightening ocean filled with all sorts of slimy things. So I get that, you know, part of it comes from First of all, like, arm yourself with knowledge and protect yourself, right, like really get a sense of, okay, here are the ways to protect myself around like, again, pregnancy risk, here are the ways to protect myself around STIs. And then here are the boundaries that I have going into this dating world, like, here are the standards that I'm setting for people that they need to meet in order to be able to have access to my body. And this is the hardest part, right? Because you know, like, you don't go grocery shopping, when you're hungry. It's really hard to to date and hook up when you're really desperate for touch and intimacy. Because we can all make bad food choices. And so it's just hard. So the best you can do arm yourself with all the knowledge you need, and to really establish those boundaries in place before you start engaging. So that you know, like, this is my bottom line. And then when you have those standards, like you can start to really start to move through the world, looking for people who meet that bar. And I think, again, the apps are great, but I think using them in a way that's very thoughtful, like learning to decode what people are asking and learning how to ask questions that will give you the right, like the answers that you're looking for. Right? Whether positive or negative, right? Like, you know, here are the these are the things I want, like, I have no so many people who have like, you know, I don't fuck, or sorry, I don't know if I can use none of like, you know, like, I don't, I don't sleep with people who are anti abortion, right? Like, that's like, if you are anti abortion, you need not apply to my vagina, right, like fine. And also same, like I feel like when you are really clear about who you are, I believe that you start to scare off the wrong people and invite the right people around. So in that way, I also say like, you know, getting laid on recommendation is one of the coolest things in the world. I have I have been laid on recommendation. So many times, so many of my friends have to because I have like hooked up with somebody or flirt with somebody at a party. And it's clear, it's not gonna work out. But they're like, you're cool, you know, I have a friend, you wouldn't be my friend. And those I feel like again, it's it sounds kind of old fashioned to say like, but meeting people out in the world, I think is a really great vetting tool. Because again, the internet is the internet and all the ways where you can hide, alter who you are as a person, but meeting people in sex positive spaces at you know, sex ed classes at your local sex toy store, meeting people out in the world like that can be a really great way to again, get to know what you're actually looking for, get to know who in your area is looking for what you're looking for, and tend to find people who have a little bit more sexual literacy, because they are they have community around them, who knows, hey, this guy, or this gal is really good at this, or you know, you're interested in rope, I know a whole like rope Dojo that you should check out. Because that's a way to meet people and to get to know people outside of all of the kind of confusing signals that can happen online. Right. But at the same time, you're right, I think that like we all live under patriarchy, right and assists men included. And we have some really terrible lessons. And the one thing I always say in the book and in life is you just have to treat people like people, even if you're not going to see them after tomorrow morning, right? Like, you need to still treat them as vibrant, loving human beings who need connection in this world. Because that's really what we're doing right, we're looking to connect, even if it is, again, a two hour romp or a 12 year relationship. This is advice that really doesn't have a gender attached, just acknowledge that we are all living under these really terrible stereotypes about gender. And then ultimately, we need to cut through those and start to relate to each other as people and to treat each other with dignity. I mean, the epigraph to my book is from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, just be excellent to each other, right like that. Be excellent. Even if that relationship is going to be over. As soon as the light switch turns on, be excellent to each other anyway, because this is this is about community. This isn't just about you and some random person you meet at a bar. This is about the next person or people that that person sleeps with and the lessons that they've learned by having sex with you that they're going to take to those new partners and vice versa. And this is when we start to exactly examine this is like a quality of sexual citizenship, right? We are in a society, a sexual society together. And then again, we are all related. So many people have bad experiences because some other ex that that person had treated them in such a way that they learned a lesson about that. And now they're taking that lesson into the bedroom with you. And so the best we can do to disrupt negative patterns and teach good behavior to our sexual partners, that just improves the sexual cachet of your entire community.

Effy

Absolutely, I mean, I love the way you put that Fisher. I mean, we talk about sort of the hookup culture as if it's something that is that doesn't include us. But those of us who are out there engage in casual sex, we are a part of the hookup culture, and we can influence that culture because we are the people who are in it for sure. And you know, for some people, it's easier for others not so much. But I do think that I love the way that you thinking about this whole thing as a community is a sexual citizenship. I really love that framing, and really taking ownership of have the sex that you want in the world. That's the way that's the way I'm thinking about it.

Allison Moon

Yeah, I mean, my partner Reid Mihalko says like, he wants you in the bedroom, right? Like, it starts from teaching, treating, like teach people how to treat you. Right. And so that's the Yep, change.

Effy

Yeah, absolutely. So here's the thing that resonates with me, we're in communities, we're fortunate we're privileged to be in community in six positive communities in the areas that we live in. And this is available, referral, sex is available to us and in connections are available to us. We know where good sex toy stores are. And we go to the seminars, the workshops, and everything else. What about those people who don't have that around them? What are some of the things that we can tell them how to go out into the world and doing it in a safe way? Maybe even creating community around them?

Allison Moon

Yeah, sure. Well, I mean, I'd say I'd say it's, it's really does start with getting to know yourself, but then finding your people. And that might be a virtual community, right? Like you might truly live in a very isolating place. And, and that way, I understand that I sympathize, because it's true. There are places in this world in which it's very dangerous to be your sexual self expressed self. And the internet is this beautiful, powerful tool of connecting people again, for better and for worse sometimes, but like to find your people to start to explore. And again, like I grew up in Ohio, I grew up in a conservative small town, I did not feel like I had queer community to access right, I had to emancipate myself, I had to become an adult before I actually started to really understand who I was as a sexual person, right? So there sometimes might be that so like, young listeners might just have to wait until they are legally able to move to a city that is safe to be themselves, right. But at the same time, like, I think people might be surprised, who's freaky out in the sticks, right? Like, I have so many stories from friends of or like I've taught at universities in the middle of all sorts of different places where it's kind of amazing what people are getting up to write lots of cool having very kinky rural sex and really interesting, you know, munches like swinger meetups in in rural America like that, that is out there. For sure. New York City does not has not cornered the market on sexual freaky Deaconess, let me tell you, again, like to meet some farm boys, you will be surprised. I will, I will say that, like, don't assume that you don't have community just because of where you live. But at the same time, like I know, a lot of people who might start seeking out stuff in the next town over right or the next small city over to feel safe, that they can be themselves without running into, you know, their high school basketball coach or whatever, but start to try and find like, try to understand your geographic access, and also your internet access, and maybe that Venn Diagram of where those two meet. And it might be, I'm going to take the bus an hour away to see what's out there, right. And just to see what's there. I think sometimes, again, for those of us who are reaching perceptual community, just knowing that it's there for us when we need to tap into it can be the bomb that we need, right for me, like, I would go to Cleveland in Ohio to the gay bar just to be around gay people, right, as soon as I was legally able to, just because I just needed to see and it wasn't an easy trek for me. But like it was something I needed to do for myself. I started volunteering at the LGBT Center just again once every once in a while so I could go and know that I would be around people like me. So that might be the thing where you start to invest time and energy and money into finding that community and again, like prioritizing it as though you are really into I don't even know like kit cars or whatever, like whatever their hobby is, right? Like people, people travel for those things. People travel for community, people meet in different places around the country. So that might be you you know, you might treat that kink for So as your annual trip to Disneyland, right, like that might be your way to let off steam. And then you can go back to your conventional job in middle of nowhere. And I again, I know so many people that do this i and and I guess maybe one other thing about that is Don't think that because the sexual community isn't your flavor that they don't have anything to offer you, right. So, as an example, so there are a lot of leather contests around the country, there are a lot of kink conferences around the country. And again, I'm only speaking from American perspective, because that's really the perspective now. But there are lots of these things that happen all year long, right. And I, when I go to these things to teach, I always meet people who were like, I saved up all year, I'm using my two weeks of vacation, and I like me and my best friend traveled to this conference, specifically to meet people in play and get some numbers and see what's out there. And then again, I'm gonna go back. But like, I think there's a lot of room for that, if you decide that this is something that you want to pursue, you can absolutely explore that. And again, like you might not be into kink or leather. But if you're interested in sex positive community, that's a great stepping stone to find more people that are into what you're into. And so to use that kind of community as a way to just see what else is out there, make friends. And then again, like, I'm not into a lot of hardcore BDSM. But I teach at those places. And then I meet amazing people who tell me, Hey, have you heard about this thing that's happening, that sounds right up your alley. And that's, again, like we think of sex as this thing that happens between either strangers or married partners. Whereas like, I have had sex with so many of my friends, I've had sex next to my friends. Because once you get to a point where you're comfortable enough with your sexuality, like you can have those intimate bonds with people. And again, those people can tell you where to look for other things, or can give you insight into other places. And I think that, again, treating this as like sexual community and sexual citizenship is a great way of approaching this as like developing your own access to sex and to sexual expression.

Effy

Everything that you're saying rings, so true to me. And I do absolutely. I mean, this is something I had never thought about it this way. And I'm loving this framing of sexual Citizens Services. It's like, it's like echoing in my brain and how much it touches so many different aspects. So I'm going to, I'm definitely going to sit with that idea, for sure. And as you were talking to think the other thing that came up for me was we actually have a whole episode called sex as a hobby, which is something that I believe all the time, like, treat sex as a hobby. And it is a great hobby, you know, spend time learning about it by all the things enjoy, you know, enjoy, share it with people find other people who like doing it, and you can just like, just reframe it so that it's a hobby, so I definitely when I heard you say that I was like, yes, thanks.

Allison Moon

That's great. It's so it's so succinct the way you said it, I appreciate that. I'm gonna I'm gonna use that.

Effy

Yeah, for sure. For sure. And also fuck your friends. I do think that's a good advice. Again, we've from sex positive community. So it seems like a no brainer to us, of course, you park your friends, like Who else are you going to but but I do think when people hear it for the first time who are not in those communities, it seems so abrasive like it's it feels like you need to separate this idea of sexuality for only certain boxes with only certain people. And if it's not your, your husband, or your wife, your you know, partner, it's like strangers that you never gonna talk to again, or, you know, we just want to confined it, you know, be indoors in rooms that you're never gonna go back to, you know, in that kind of stuff. And the idea is, we'll actually, and there's this option that you can really share it with people that you already love in a way that might not be romantic love, but you love them and you care about them. And you think about and they think about you and you like to take care of each other. So have a T shirt, fuck your friends. I love that. So I want to ask about this. So you kind of mentioned this already. But I want to dig in a little bit because be excellent. I did. I did see that at the front of your book. It is great advice. And I do want to dig in them a little bit, though. What does that look like in a hookup like if you can like take me through meeting somebody fresh. Even if you've been referred by the first time you will be meeting them to having your experience and coming out the other side and kind of high fiving and going your own way? Like what is good etiquette for this. Like how do you live up to that sexual citizenship passport that you get when you're done with this?

Allison Moon

Well, I think the first thing is to acknowledge that not everybody's going to approach a hookup with the same from the same background that you are like everybody's different. Everybody's going to come into a hook up with their own baggage with their own history and with their own preferences. Right. So it's just that's step one is acknowledging like your might be here for different reasons. And that's okay, right? Those reasons don't have to match. They just have to mesh right, like whatever that is. So acknowledging that first of all, secondly, I think it's people are often surprised when they encounter sex positive community about how much talking we do. Right? Hmm, probably not surprising. I'm a very loquacious person, but like, I don't know, orgy right. There is a lot of talking. Eyes Wide Shut, right. It's not a bunch of just hot people humping. Like there is negotiation. There's questions. There's laughter There's a lot of conversation that's happening because you are deciding if what you are into works with what they're into. And you're trying to find, again, that and diagram overlap of where can we meet to have a good time. You know, my, my partner is way sloppier than I am. And, you know, he shares the stories of like, getting excited about something. And he's also incredibly vanilla, right? Doesn't like pain doesn't like power dynamics, none of that. So when he goes to the same conferences I go to, and he meets these like hot, kinky, heavy, BDSM players who want to play with him, and he's like, Okay, I like cuddling. I like kids. And they're like, well, like a single tail whipping. I like breadth play. And then he's like, okay, okay. Okay. When we were going to try and find the place in the middle that we can meet, right? We can, we're going to find the place where we're both because we both want to hook up. We just don't know how, right. So even if you are not heavy player at conferences, if you are just meeting somebody cute, and you're trying to figure it out, like there's gonna be some conversation that happens, right? Maybe it's conversation about like, you know, have you ever done this before? Have you ever been with a woman before? Or have you ever used this kind of toy before, all the way up to like, I love to ask, like, or I like to say like, for me out means out. If you want to hurt me a little bit, I'm fine with asserting my boundaries. But if I say out, that's, that means you hurt me to a degree that I want you to stop, right? That's all it is. Oftentimes, when I'm getting to know a new person's body, I will act like I will ask them to, like, you know, like, if they say like, I like pain, I'm like, great, like I'm gonna do so like, I'm gonna pinch you I'm gonna bite your nipple or something. Slowly until I get to the point in which it's not fun anymore. And you're gonna tell me where that is. And so now I know they'll they'll tap me on the head, or they'll say, our whatever. And then like, okay, great, like, this is how hard I can bite you or squeeze you or whatever, until it becomes not fun anymore. So now I've got a great understanding of where your own pain pleasure boundaries are. And again, there's a lot of exploration and play. And there's a lot of talking and asking questions. And it doesn't have to be like a dissertation. Like, I've definitely I recently hooked up with somebody where it was, like, we started making out and I was like, oh, clearly, this is hot and heavy. We took a break. And then we were like, you know, she shared her needs. And I'm, like, great, like, I shared what I'm interested in. She said, Great. And then we gotten to bed and everything kind of flowed. And then there would be moments when I went to ask a question, and it can be a simple yes, no question. But again, approaching it from the perspective of I don't know how your body works, I don't know what you like, the only way I can learn is by asking you, and hopefully you respond verbally, or, you know, if you don't want to respond verbally, just make noise, right? Like, okay, like, if I kiss you here, like just make a noise that says pleasure or making those that says net, right? That can be enough sometimes, but as long as you're approaching it from a listening perspective, not an agenda perspective, right? I think this is where creepiness comes in. This is where oftentimes issues of like non consent come in is that when a person goes into a hookup with an agenda of how the hook up is supposed to look, what is supposed to happen, that's where shit can get really squirrely, that's where she can go wrong. Because as soon as that other person isn't on the same page, if you have an agenda, you're gonna keep trying to push that agenda, even if they're not interested anymore, right? And this is where like, we have to be really careful because if we have in our head one idea of what sex looks like, if we only watch porn, and we watch heteronormative porn, and we only understand that this is what sex looks like, when you go to choke your partner, and she freaks out, you're like, well, the porno looked like she likes being joke, right? Well, that's been your broken if you don't behave like a porn star does, right? We start to have this notion of people as video game characters people as as other like non entities. And I think my big concern as a citizen of the world, is noticing how we're really in our culture, getting really good at stripping the humanity away from other people, right. And I think people are taking that into the bedroom very, very often. And again, we're not listening for nuance, we're not looking for subtlety. We're not excited about variety. We have this idea of this is how you're supposed to behave. And if you don't behave this way. It's because you're broken, not because I'm doing something wrong, the intensity that I can possibly muster, like we need to start acknowledging the full humanity of people that we sleep with the full diversity and uniqueness of sexuality in those people. And we should approach it like your podcast with curiosity, not an attempt to tell them how to be sexual in this world. And if you discover in either the conversation or the actual hookup that you're actually not on the same page. That's just a Information, it can be like, great, you know, timeout, I don't think this is working for me, let's either take a break or maybe like, take a longer break. Be Done. And that's fine. But again, like we don't have a sense of being able to stop sex in the middle, we don't have a sense of being able to timeout to have somebody ahead and be like, actually, I think that we're moving in different directions, can we come back to square one because of shame, because we're taught like, I'm supposed to enjoy this, because this is sex. And if I'm not enjoying it, it's some kind of show something wrong with me, right? And that's not actually how that works. And I think that that's we need to really stop stop using these stereotypes and shame to teach us how to behave. Right, we need to start really, to connect with people as people always.

Effy

I mean, absolutely everything that you're saying, again, makes so much sense. And I think a part of that is, I think some of that stripping the humanity that you're talking about. And the disconnection in the bedroom is one of the reasons I think we are because of the internalized shame, we disconnect from ourselves. And I think both asking the questions of, you know, how is this like, I want to get to know you, I think this is how you started the conversation as well, like, how am I arriving at this experience as well, like, am I am I able to be tuned into myself, so I can take responsibility of saying the hours of the day or the knee, or even knowing what I need in that session, because I find that I may be really up for things, you know, one day, and the next day, I'm not really into that. And one day, my pain threshold is really high. And that's where I want to go on another day, probably I close to my period, I'm like, you know, butterfly kisses only. And if you like, even scratch me by accident, I'm gonna be you know, mad at you, you know. So I think, totally. And just knowing that you change from session to session, even if you're having sex with the same people over and over again, I do think that you don't always arrive in in the same state so that that communication that you're talking about is is definitely key. And I think again, the thing that stood out for me is, we talk a lot about permission, inspiration, permission on the show, like approaching these topics with, with inspiration to know that what is out there, and permission to know, you get to have this, like you get to have these experience experiences. You get to have your boundaries, you get to have pleasure. And here's a community of people who are doing it, right. So and that's kind of what I'm hearing from what you're saying as well, like, go out there, there's a bunch of options, a bunch of people a bunch of opportunities out there, and know that you can you can have that and you can you can engage in that. And that on a micro level is things like you said about stopping the action, or you know, course correcting or saying I don't feel this anymore, let's do something else. And we don't say that and we don't see it and we don't receive it well, either. And that's This is both sided thing is if you tell somebody that you're having, you know, having sex with, Oh, you want an adjustment. One of the things I think holds us back is like their reaction to it, because we've internalized it feels like the ultimate rejection that you're bad at everything else that you're doing. That was coming to an end, because somebody said move left a little bit.

Allison Moon

Yeah, sure. Yeah, totally. We can take that stuff way too, personally. But yeah, I think that like something about like, it's just owning that oftentimes, like if I am in that position, like I will often say like, Hey, something is coming up for me. Like, I just need to pause for a second like and I might even say like, you're not doing anything wrong, but like that. I mean, I had a lover where I was going through a really hard time and I started weeping during sex Of course, he was like concerned paws checked, which again, I really appreciated. And I had a second to check in with my body. I'm like, oh, no, this is actually really good. Like, you're fucking me. Right? And I need to have this emotional release. If you're okay, with continuing and me crying. We can keep going. But it's also up to you. You don't have to fuck a crying woman if you do it, right. Like, that's something that did. He also had, it was at choice with and I wanted to, again, like we often think that like, men aren't a deeply emotional creatures as well when it comes to sexuality, but like, he had his choice there too. And so B came to the conclusion, yes, we both would like to keep going. And yes, I'm gonna cry. Well, it happens. And it was great. And it was a beautiful, loving, wonderful experience. But it required us a pause and assessment so that we were both okay with what happened next.

Effy

So, so Yeah, beautiful, beautiful. Allison, thank you so much for your wisdom. This is such an interesting conversation. And the insight and the nuances that you're having this topic is, is awesome. I really have taken away so much that I want to sort of sit there and think about thank you so much for your time and your energy that you bring to the show and sharing your wisdom. I would really appreciate it.

Allison Moon

Thank you if you happen to be on.

Effy

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