Ep 10: Coming Out as Non-monogamous (LIVE)
Art by @katarina_samohin
Figuring out the right relationship design for you and your partner(s) is key to thriving. If that design falls outside the status quo, how do you communicate it to other people in your life? Do you talk about your husband’s boyfriend at work? Do you include your girlfriend in the family Christmas card? Do you ask for another plus one for partnered events?
Effy and Jacqueline sit down with a live panel to hear their diverse stories and to discuss coming out as non-monogamous.
To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla on Instagram.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Effy
Hi, my name is Effy Blue. And this is the Curious Fox podcast. Curious Fox is a community for those who challenge the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. What you're about to hear is a live recording of our latest social. Every month, we pick a theme anchored in love, sex, and relationships, invite a diverse set of panelists, and bravely explore the theme through personal story and discussions. This month, we decided to tackle the trials and tribulations of coming out as being non monogamous. Coming out as being gay by non binary and trans are somewhat commonplace these days. But we don't hear that much about coming out as being non monogamous. And there are a couple of reasons for that. Firstly, relationship structures on a protected class, like race, sex, or sexual orientation. This means if you being non monogamous upsets your boss, they can fire you. Or if it upsets your ex spouse, they can bring it up in a custody battle. You can lose your benefits or have issues with immigration, and even adoption. Secondly, non monogamy is still stigmatized and misunderstood by many. There's a chance you may upset or worried the people you love the most like parents and close friends, being rejected by those people can be heartbreaking. So what do you do? Do you come out? Or do you stay in the closet? Well, it really depends. In this episode, you'll hear three different coming out stories with three different endings. We talk about how to have that coming out conversation, and what to do, if you can't have it. How do you get comfy in the closet? We also talk about moral objections versus real concerns and worries. And what to do when your loved ones simply can't accept your relationship choices. Don't worry, it's not all doom and gloom, we actually had a lot of laughs and ended up on a pretty positive note. Enjoy the episode.
Jacqueline
Thank you for coming out and hanging out with us. We are doing a panel and it is going to be recorded. And I'll tell you all the details about that. But first, I want to tell you about curious Fox I want to learn about you. And then you'll hear all about these fantastic folks that are up here. So hopefully, you know you are at a curious Fox event. My name is Jacqueline, I am many things one of which is a co collaborator for curious Fox, I am the chief Fox of operations, which means that I helped bring all of the vision and take it into action. And curious Fox is a community that challenges the status quo and love sex and relationships. So our goal is every single month and through through content that you can read the things that you can attend, there are podcasts that you can listen to all the modalities in which you receive information, giving you opportunities to change the noise that is surrounding you, that is telling you that there is one way to live and love and be and instead infiltrating those spaces with a different kind of noise and saying, actually, this thing is possible. And this thing is kind of cool. And did you ever know that this thing existed? Come try it. And so that's what we're about. And that's what we're doing. We do have a podcast we have an Instagram, we have a LinkedIn, we have a Patreon, you can find all of the many ways that we exist via we are curious foxes. Just look that up. And you'll find all the things on social media. So we have a bunch of peer panelists here, which means that these are everyday folk who are courageous enough to share their experience with you. And so they're going to be talking about their personal journeys and stories. I'm going to be asking them a few questions kind of playing the role of the every person and trying to get information. And then we're gonna open up to you guys and you guys can ask your specific questions. And then we have Effy on the panel who will introduce herself in a second. And Effy, as always is playing our we're not playing but is our expert. And so she's going to be talking providing context and sharing tools and tips as a relationship coach, and as an author and thought partner in this work. So how does everybody feel about all of that? All right, good. Did I miss anything? Alright, so I'm good. Okay, so what I'm going to do is I'm actually going to pass it over, I'm gonna give folks a minute or two just to give you a sense of their story we're talking today about coming out as polyamorous or as open or as non monogamous. Or as relationship anarchist, or all the ways in which you identify that is not the prescribed path towards relationships. And so how do you tell someone that you're dating? How do you tell your family? How do you tell your friends, and so that's what we're gonna be diving into today. And so the panelists are gonna give a little bio about themselves. And then I'm gonna ask them some questions, and then make some space for you guys to ask questions.
Brad
So hi, everyone. My name is Brad, I work in the tech industry. I'm also a modern dancer, which is enough information for anyone to identify me. So that's all out there. Now. There aren't many of us in New York. Yeah, so I've been in New York about two years, I was in Madison, Wisconsin for six years before that. So I can talk to you about the difference between the medicine scene and the New York scene, very different in that respect. You know, grew up in a traditional American family, in the sense that my parents are still together. My mother was Greek Orthodox Christian, my father was Jehovah's Witness. So that's a little weird, but you know, it was not part of my life growing up, you know, in college, everyone's kind of doing everything. So that was the first sort of taste and like, Oh, you don't have to like date one person. And then I graduated had a, you know, traditional monogamous relationship until about 2012. And that's when I sort of, you know, had had enough of that and decided I was going to more or less swear off monogamy. So I sort of had discovered and read sex at dawn and was like, okay, cool. Like, I don't have to be monogamous, I can try this other thing. And it was still just this like, iterative, explorative experience, until about 2016, which is when I discovered again, this new sort of construct and this new idea, not new at the time, but new to me, known as relationship anarchy, which is something you mentioned and happy to sort of talk more about what that is, and sort of how that works. But that's sort of been the relationship structure and orientation I've operated under since then. So it's always interesting to, you know, the theme is coming out. And it's like, when you meet someone, and you're like, I'm not monogamous. And you're like, cool. And you're like, actually, I'm a relationship anarchist. And they're like, well, that's a whole different thing. There's, you know, curious Fox had an event back in February, about relationship anarchy. I don't know if anyone was here. But it's like, it's a whole different conversation. And often people are like, what is that? It's scary. So it's interesting to sort of work through that time and time again, you can't you can't just say I'm non monogamous. You like, like, well, there's this whole other thing, and you have to have this. It's like a 15 minute sit down conversation as to like, what does that actually mean? So that's just a little bit about me. And we can dive into more detail later.
Effy
So as Jackie said, I'm Effy Blue. I am the founder of Curious Fox. By day, I'm a relationship coach, I work with people who are curious about transitioning into or have hit some sort of a roadblock in open relationships. And I found that curious Fox about four years ago, and we've been doing these events for a while. And since the beginning of the year, we've been recording things for the podcast, and as explained why we have the mics now. And personally coming out, I ended up coming out over and over again, which is something that you mentioned, almost on daily basis. Most of the time, when you meet people they tell you, they asked you what your name is. And within the first three questions, they asked you, what do you do, right and regular conversation often? So what do you do? And by the time I explain what I do, I'm pretty much out. So there's really no like coming out as a separate question. So that's always interesting, because you have to go through it all. And that differently are times when I dread the question, because I know that I do actually have to go through this coming out thing, or I will, you know, or I'm not going to have to, I'm not gonna be authentic, well just pass the conversation and I'll pass it on. But often, if you try to avoid it, people actually become more curious. So you're like, a tiny, it's kind of hard to get into it. So that's, you know, that's an interesting experience for me. So I see I exist in the both planes, not out in very big sort of people there, I'm really close to, and then like out all the time almost immediately when I meet people new. So that's kind of the dichotomy that I live in. And I can tell you more about that. Other than that, you know, I've been coaching people who are exploring Oh, monogamy for now, five years. I have. For four years, I've been figuring things out for a lifetime. And I think where I've landed on non monogamy, and when I did, it was through after a period of time when I thought that I wasn't good at relationships, I had come to a conclusion that I sucked at relationships, and I wasn't going to do them at all. And when I discovered non monogamy, I realized it wasn't that I wasn't good at relationships. I just wasn't good at one type of relationship. And if I could just, you know, have another type of relationship I actually was really good at them. And, and that's, that was a big sort of lightbulb moment for me and that from that I came up with this idea of relationship by design, which is the what I coach around, I believe that we should consciously and actively design our relationships in a way that we can thrive. Regardless of what society tells us what your TV tells us what the expectations are, what your parents want, but really sort of the figuring out what thriving looks like for you? And what are the what kind of what does the relationship structure that can really cultivate and nurture that that state of thriving with everybody feeling the same way. So that's kind of where I do a lot of my work. And I think, you know, as the conversation evolves, I will share more and talk about more.
Tiana
I'm Tiana. And my journey started for as long as I can remember, I always wanted to, like, be one of those retired like people in Florida and Orlando villages, just like cruising around my pimped out like golf cart and just like fucking until I die, essentially. And so that was like, my end goal. For like, literally, I've tried to think back as far as I remember, I'm like, I was a pretty naughty kid. So I'm thinking like kindergarten, like, firstly, like, really far back. So but but until then, you know, I did like the traditional things of like, dating one person at a time and got married. And, you know, we started a business together. And then I realized, like, okay, we're not really ready for children not ready to die yet. So let's just, you know, explore the other part of that, which is like, maybe a threesome, or like an orgy or play party. And so we slowly started, you know, doing research and going to classes, and, you know, discovering these little nooks and crannies of like, these communities. And so then the journey of like, okay, this is who I am, this is what I want for my life. This is what I want for, you know, future partnerships. I had to tell my family and so my parents actually took it really well. And were my dad confuse polyamory with, like, BDSM. And, like, totally like, so he just, like assumed that people were like, immediately tying me up in dungeons, and like, you know, whipping me and, you know, moving them and like that was happening, but that wasn't part of my poly life. And so, you know, I had to, you know, give him the distinction of, you know, what those two sides of my new self were. But eventually, he, you know, understood and became more open minded about it. And I even shared with him on his birthday, actually, about a class that I took with my friend Lola Jean about like watersports, and like the different categories of bad and like his experience, even with it. And so, you know, we've now gone into a whole new level of father daughter relationships that I think most of but it's opened new communication lines between us, which I appreciate. And he appreciates, even though he's a bit reluctant sometimes. And my mom is just kind of like, I'm happy if you're happy, but she's, she just really doesn't, what are the details? You know, she's just like, you're thriving and happy, then, you know, I'm happy. So yeah, and then I also mentioned that when I was telling my aunt who sort of equated like, my ethically non monogamous to her, less ethically non monogamous ways of dating, you know, when she was younger, and you know, we were talking about that my grandmother overheard, and then I later, you know, talking to my grandmother, like months later, she then thought I was prostituting this whole time. So she was very confused about like, what sex work is, and then having multiple partners and like difference in that and so it's been interesting, depending on who I talked to within my family, you know, what their reaction has been to, but definitely mostly supportive and overall positive, for the most part.
Kim
Hi, I'm Kim. I'm a single mom to a five year old. My experience with poly began in college when a very good friend of mine introduced me to his girlfriend and his girlfriend's boyfriend. I thought that was awesome because they were all awesome. Unfortunately, that relationship did not last as many college relationships don't. He has gone on to be in a sort of, I guess you could say mono poly but not practicing poly relationship. Very cool for them. Love his fiancee. She's one of my very close friends. But I stayed with the whole monogamy thing. got married, had a kid and sort of in that thing that you do when your relationship It is falling apart, you decided to open. And unfortunately, I had a partner who only wanted a one penis policy. And that kind of failed mostly because he wanted an excuse to be not ethically non monogamous. So his friend actually kind of said, you know, if you're fucking all these other people, she kind of has the right to do so also, that really kind of backfired on him. I ended up meeting somebody who then introduced me to my partner who's here. And one thing led to another and my husband ended up leaving which actually turned out to be something really good. But in the process of doing so, he did something to sort of spark the whole coming out issue. He got caught making out with his unknown to me pregnant girlfriend, and was caught by my neighbor. Long story short neighbor went home told his daughter daughter goes, I know. Yeah, they're Polly. Irish Catholic family goes What's Polly. She goes into explaining it. She explained that she had known for several months. huddling and of her family took it really well. And was very supportive and very much in a, if it makes you happy, and no one's getting hurt. It's all good. Which I was thrilled about. My family did not take it so well. And my ex husband took it as kind of a bartering chip, if you will. So he got mad at me and decided to out me to my parents. My mother is a conservative Chinese woman from rural China. So you can imagine sort of Little House on the Prairie kind of a situation and farm girl kind of thing. And my dad for all his liberal tendencies, comes from a fairly conservative New York and Kansas based family, so they did not take it very well. In the few years since that's happened, they've met a bunch of friends over the years. They know my partner very well. They know that my daughter has a great relationship with our poly kewl and have be grudgingly accepted it. But even so my mother tends to have these flare ups where it's I don't appreciate this, uh, you're somehow insulting the family. It's somehow seen as as a black mark on their record as parents, like we couldn't indoctrinate you well enough with our conservative values. And so yeah, that's kind of that the, for the most part, I was out to my, my previous job I worked. I'm a science teacher and transition. I was out to my school, I am not out to my daughter's school, only because they are a Catholic school. And they have, they have certain requirements that you must abide by. So there's that.
Jacqueline
So as you can see, we have a good range on the panel of folks and their experiences. So I'm curious about what motivated you to eventually say, I'm going to talk to people about this, like, at what point did you make the decision not only am I going to live in this way data in this way, be in this way, but I actually now need to say it out loud. What What was the motivation around that? I'll start with you, Brad. And then.
Brad
I mean, there are a lot of different facets to it. Right? So something that came up a few times is work, right? Like, I don't talk about this at work. And I don't because there are a lot of protected classes, right sex, gender, you know, religion, etc. Like your relationship orientation is not one of them. You're sort of sexual. So like, if you're into kink, that is not you can be fired, if you make someone uncomfortable. So like, this is not like even me being on a podcast and like, it's like, you know, like, I don't talk about it at work. I don't bring it up at work. It's just sort of like Don't Ask, Don't Tell. I've met coworkers that are also like in the non monogamy scene in the kink scene, and we'd like sort of figure each other out one way or another, which is kind of cool because then we're like, oh, yeah, okay, like, here's my number let's take this outside of like professional communications that we can actually talk about this. But that is like the one arena where like, I don't talk about it. All my friends no. And I get reactions that vary from like, oh, yeah, Brad's the weird one. Like, he's just that he does that weird sex thing and like, whatever. Right? Like, that's one reaction to I think a lot of my friends are like, sort of theoretically okay with it. But they haven't been confronted with it yet where they're like, oh, like, Yeah, you like you bring this person around. That's cool. And then like, you bring another person or like they they haven't had to deal with that yet. So it'll be interesting to see what happens in that situation.
Jacqueline
You shared, one of the things that when we talked in advance, you talked about how, as someone who's dating, you have to essentially out yourself every single day, every single time you have to sit down with someone and explain that out. And so I imagine that's part of the motivation for you is if we're going to be in a relationship, you have to understand, so talk a little bit about that process of constantly have to having to educate.
Brad
Yeah, yeah. And it's one of the we were talking about this at a time as well, like, it's on all my dating profiles, right? It's like it's out there in varying degrees of like, in your face. And this about it, it sort of depends on the platform, like some of them are like, yeah, like, I'm cool with this. And some of them are like, Nope, this is exactly how I live my life. And like, I'm going to be very upfront about that. I am sort of like a be testing it, which is a very, like tech sort of way to way to approach this of like, well, how, like, what what messaging works best, because there are a lot of misconceptions as to what does it mean to be non monogamous or to be poly like, I don't even use the term poly, because that has certain connotations. That's a certain type of relationship, which I'm not necessarily like looking for interested in. So it's definitely something that like, I'm very upfront about it before. It's like to the point now, I've been on so many dates, where, like, it's on the profile, and you like, talk about it, and they're like, cool, and then you actually sit down with them. And they're like, Oh, I thought you were kidding. There is a I dated someone for an entire summer once, and like three months into the relationship. She's like, we need to talk and I was like, Okay, why? And she sat down. She's like, you're serious about this, aren't you? And I was like, I've been saying this, like, every single week. For months, she was just like, Yeah, I just I don't know, I thought I thought and you hear this a lot, I thought I would change you or I thought like I was different, or I thought whatever, right? And it's like, sorry, honey. So yeah, it's something that's like it's a constant. It's always part of the conversation. It's always something where, you know, you have to figure out like, where is this person? How do I meet them? Where they are? What's the nature of this relationship? How much do they even need to know? Because sometimes you're like, hey, like, this is the nature of our relationship, you don't actually need to know the philosophical underpinnings behind relationship anarchy, that's not a conversation you need to have. It's just like, this is the situation of my sex life. And this is how much you need to know. It's always a like, you sort of put it out there, and you make sure that people know and then sometimes you have to, like have a sit down conversation where it's like, alright, like, I want you to understand, I want you to want to make sure we're on the same page here, because ultimately, it's going to end poorly if you're not. So the earlier you can get on the same page. And the earlier you can sort of clear up any misconceptions that seems to work best for me.
Jacqueline
So to that same question, I'm interested in what was the motivation? And also when you decided I'm going to talk to the my family, because now it makes sense to did you realize to Brad's point that you would have to show up as educator, as saying, Actually, it's not this, it's this, and D stigmatizing some of the words that are associated with it.
Tiana
Yes, absolutely. I mean, I started with wanting to educate myself first, you know, so that I understood it, you know, I understood the language, you know, I read some things, but I needed to meet people like that was more important to me. And so like, seeing the community there, like I went from having like, the same friends I had in middle school for like the past, I don't know how many years way too long to say out loud, to like, now having like this abundance of like family and community and friends, and, you know, all these layers of people, you know, in my life, whether they were sexual or non sexual. So just like being around that, and seeing how people live their life, because even if you read certain things, you know, those only concerts tell you certain structures or lessons that people learn. So it was like getting those like, kind of like real world feedback was really important, in addition to like, the taking the classes and going to the workshops, like all of that fed me so that when people asked me about it, I could be like, oh, yeah, this is my personal experience. But this is also my friend, and this is what she you know, and this is what he did, you know, and this is what this molecule looks like, and that, you know, so it allowed me to have like education and in a more, you know, different perspective kind of way than I was, you know, seeing in other people which was really how feels to me. And then it made me want to bring more community together, you know? Because then I was like, Oh no, you bubbles don't know each other please blend, you know, like, yes, like, you know, so that I wanted to grow community and start more community and like, especially with like people of color like which is like has its own stigmas of like relationships and monogamy and ethically non monogamy. And so when you're going to these spaces, and you only see like, less than a handful of people that kind of look like you and it's not that like you, we need allies like lovely, you know, having non people of color, but like, we want to know that, like, you're not the only one. So then I wanted to build community around that too. And like be like, Hey, you over there, like, how are you here, there's like, 30 of us actually, I don't know, it looks like there's five but you know, so you know, that kind of been my new mission of like, you know, building that, but also bringing all people together, you know, all orientations, you know, like, not just it being about black, white, queer, you know, like, I wanted it to be inclusive, like when I say when I hear a space is inclusive, and I don't see inclusivity that's a problem for me. And so that's what I wanted to correct. And those are the things that I'm trying to, like be a part of, of like, when we say we're inclusive, and you show up, you see the different inclusivity there. And then that makes you want to invite more people because you see, you know that happening and you want to you know, include more people. So that's kind of been my new mission and like helping grow whether you know, whatever style relationship that is, you know, I just want all pupils to have the space to be able to self Express and whatever that looks like, do you kind of you embrace the role of educator
Oh yes, yes, absolutely. But I feel like educator has like, its own level of like commitment to it that I don't actually want to step up to that pedal. So yeah, like, thank you and honor me for that crown. But I don't you know, that's still except, but community builder, I will gladly like wave that flag. Like all day. I've now been doing like poly activists. So now like, I'll wave that flag everyday. And like MPs, you know, taught me about like, monogamy is not a default, you know, and so just like that, so shook things inside of me when I heard that and it was just like, you're right, I've just been groomed that this is the default that I have to, you know, attune to to be like a good person to be successful to be, you know, whatever label I put on it, but it's like if I deviate from that, now I'm a deviant. Now I, you know, there's like hedonist. Now I'm, you know, all of these almost negative connotations. But now we're in a community where we're owning, reclaiming these things, reclaiming slut, reclaiming hedonist reclaiming, you know, all these things that are have these negative connotations and like making them more positive. So that's it I love being a part of
Jacqueline
So Kim's, you feel like your story is different. Right? So Tiana, I live and Brad are both talking about consciously making decisions to share out to then educate to let their people know, and you didn't have a choice, and you're coming out at least with your parents. And so did you feel prepared when that happened? And how did you manage that conversation?
Kim
Okay. First, I had to dispel all the negative ideas, thoughts, whispers that they'd heard I mean, to be fair, my, in the case of my ex, he started off with she's going to sex parties, and she's fucking all these people. And I had to go. Okay, well, that's like half true. But that's not what we're going to talk about right now. And my mother started talking about, well, you can't have a meaningful relationship with more than one person. So dispelling those myths. And explaining to her that, no, it's very possible because you have friends. And I explained, I said, you have, you know, your friend, I'm not gonna name any names. You're very close to her, but you're not having sex with her, that's fine. You have a very close friendship with this person. But you're not having sex with them, that's fine. But you're allowed to have that interpersonal connection. I explained to her that, you know, yes, I can date this person, and I can feel a great deal for them. I can take this other person, I can feel a great deal for them too. I can also have a friendship with my metaphors. None of that affects anything else. Granted, there are times when, you know, certain things will, but we try to actively prevent that. And sort of had to validate the relationship. Which has always been kind of annoying, because there's that Oh, you're just you're just seeing each other. It's fine. It's nothing, you know, nothing's gonna come of it because it's just a casual thing. It's just sex. and short relationships may start that way, you can absolutely start a relationship as a fuck buddy and it can progress, you can also start having a very serious relationship and have an end as a fuck, buddy. So I had to have that conversation with her, which was kind of odd. Considering they don't believe that I actually had sex to have my daughter, so... there are those people.
You know, my dad had to go, Well, you know, when you don't use protection babies happen. I was like, Yeah, and you know, ovulation sticks also kind of tell you when you're ovulating, but you know. So that was, I was prepared for it. And within a couple of days, a really good friend of mine, one of my metaphors said, here's a book and go and buy it and give it to your mom. So I gave her the book. When somebody you love is polyamorous? Yes. She looks through it flipped through it. Yeah, okay, it's not for me, I'm like, Well, that's the point. It might not be for you. But it might be for other people. And you have to acknowledge that you have to respect it. So it's taken a while, but she's gotten to the point where she's not happy, but respectful of it in some way. So...
Effy
It's interesting hearing your story, I find one at some of the work that I do with my clients are at some point, they're going to come out to friends and family, right. So they do all the conversations, they get their agreements in place, they start dating, and then at some point, you know, people become more significant and further conversations need to be had, and then the coming out process begins. And I find that they're sort of two groups of people you come up against, there's one group of people who are essentially fighting you or against you on moral grounds, they sort of saying it's wrong, it's bad, sinful. And you know, you're gonna burn in hell, you're an evil person. So those people are coming up on like, they're having the moral fight with you. They you really can't win against those people, really, the best you can do is be respectful and kind of say, I understand your concerns, you know, we can agree to disagree. And it's those, those battles are really not worth fighting. Because you're not, it's very difficult to change people's belief structures. The other group of people that you come up against are sort of they Splinter to themselves, and one is, they are genuinely worried about you, right, it comes from a place of concern that you are stepping outside the norm, the status quo the mainstream, which means that your life is going to be difficult, that you're not going to be accepted that you're not going to be loved, you're not going to have the benefits of the society that we're used to. And so that comes from a place of concern. And then the other piece is just confusion, like just don't understand don't understand what's going on. And often that confusion kind of leads to the the concern, part rain, that sort of the confusion. So I think when you're going when you're dealing with that group of people, what you guys are doing are perfect, which is okay, we're going to do the emotional labor, we're going to go into education mode, and we're going to explain and validate and, you know, be the person that breaks things down and answers all the questions and you sort of take on that emotional burden. And I think the next level from that, I think, what I'm hearing from you Tiana, which is to show that you are thriving, that you haven't seen your thriving, you have community, you have purpose, that you have love in your life, and you have people that are with you and supporting you. And I think when you sort of have those things set up, and it's not a fight, but it's an explanation and a demonstration of how you're thriving. I think those conversations go really, really well. And I think that's really that's a good way to start with those people that are really close to you and come from love with my Yeah.
Jacqueline
So I think we've been talking about it from which is incredibly interesting and helpful around big picture. And so one of the themes that I'm already hearing, there's a few themes. One is in the coming out process, you have to also be prepared to potentially be an expert or an advocate or community builder in the process and let the person know, this is what that means d stigmatizing what the words are and validating that this is something that is true and right and real for you. So you're taking on that responsibility. And up until this point, I think we've been talking about a big picture. So I'm going to play the hat, put the hat on of AI and want to have a conversation with someone in my family. And I hear your journey about how it went. But literally what did you say? Like how did it happen? So I would love for you guys to talk about actual language that you use when you sat down and said, Mom, dad, sister, brother friend, what came out of your mouth next?
Brad
I want to hear you too first because my mind is much more tame. I will tell you that much.
Tiana
I'll go first because I think mine is in little nuggets. So I did it over drinks and took them to a very nice place. It works every time. Yeah, as you know, can't make a scene in a nice way. Exactly. So, you know, think about setting environment, you know, bribery. Absolutely. And then I sort of just said, you know, hey, this, I just, when I first asked the question, what do you know about these things, and then that led me to understand what my baseline was of what I'm working with, you know, what your languages what your definitions are. Because if you're not, like, we can say the same word and have different definitions of the exact same word. So once I understood what the what the language was, then I could then interject and add in what I was doing and explain what where I was coming from, because I don't want you to have a blanket review of like, what TV says, or what porn says, or what society or your friend, you know, that you had in college was, you know, like, I want you to know, like me as this person who you've raised to love you care for, you know, this is what I'm doing, you know, and I think putting it that way was a bit digestible. And then, like I said, Okay, He confused me with BDSM. So, it clearly that first round was, you know, the clearest, but he received it really well. And so that allowed for the open door for more conversation, you know, he didn't shut down, he didn't, you know, run away from me, he was just like, I'm confused, but I love and accept you, and I'm okay with, like, what your life choices are. And then it also helped then fast forward a few like a year or two later, when then I'm featured in The New York Times with my partners and I was like, so you know, that thing we don't really talk about, but we got to talk about it, this is now going to be a thing in case you. So then, you know, that led to more conversation, you know, of like it being more publicized and more people knowing maybe his friends that don't know about my life choices and what they might think of him or his co workers might think of him. So you know, if I have to think about those triple trickle effects of like, the other relationships that he have, so that he can, you know, share or not share what he needs to within his other circles, or you know, same with my mom, her circles are a lot smaller than my dad. So that was much easier conversation. But I think that's how we like to say the exact way we started was like, tell me what you know. And then that's how also how I start dates. So you said you know, Polly is tell me what you think volumes are ethically not an Amir, you know, like, let me know what you know, and then we can go from there.
Unknown Speaker
Okay, so the first time I came out was actually to my best friend who had just become newly single. And I said her my husband and I are seeing other people. I just matched with this guy on Tinder. And her response was, Oh, my God, gay. I finally have somebody to date with. To be fair, a couple of weeks later, we both met people and that kind of went out the door. Because she is happily monogamous. And I started running off with my own life. But that was the easiest coming out. It was okay, I'm not judging. I'm sure that works for you go right ahead. That's fine. Your husband sucks anyways. coming out to my parents after my ex ran upstairs, we live in the same house as my parents. And he said what he said I had to go and run damage control. And I my first thing out of my mouth was What did he say to you? So very similar to you just tell me what you know. And I will correct or modify anything that needs to be corrected or modified. i My dad was very much in the please don't tell me anything. I'm just gonna put my headphones on and go on the computer. Camp. My mother was as Effy said in the concern cap she in her mind, this was like the worst possible thing. Here I am with a at the time my daughter was two. And she was thinking, oh my god, what is this poor child going to be exposed to? The answer to that is a lot of really over bearing ish and loving people, which I can't say is a bad thing at all. Although I fear when she starts dating. So with that it was very much well, what do you know, after that? When the rest of my family became sort of aware through Facebook that I was seeing more than one person? My mom was very much in the camp of oh my god, you have to come up with some sort of explanation. This is a friend or whatever, a co worker, I don't care what you say. So it was very much about choosing very careful words to explain it.
Brad
Yeah, I mean, my story, like I said, it's much more boring. And I guess more comical than that. So, you know, I graduated from college, had a girlfriend, she met my parents, everything was like, Cool and normal. And then that stopped happening. And my mom, you know, Christmas, and whenever I would talk to her like, so you seeing anyone, I would say, Yeah, mom, a few people. And she would kind of laugh the first few times. And then she kept asking, and I kept responding that way. And eventually, she stopped asking. And it's like, it's not this, like, Don't Ask, Don't Tell sort of thing. She's just like, okay, like, we haven't had a talk about it. I think she's just cool with it. And she's like, well, if anything is, you know, serious, you'll let me know. I'm like, Well, I mean, I don't know what you mean by serious, but that's a whole different conversation. I guess I've dated people for several years. Mom, does that count as serious? Like, what's your definition? I don't plan on getting married or having kids. So like, what is serious to you. But I've also taken the approach of like, like I was, I was actually just thinking, like, when this recording comes out, I'm gonna put it on Facebook. Like I put things on Facebook, I'm like, Hey, this is interesting. People, like y'all should check this out. As a way to sort of like engage people in conversation. And it's like, it's not in your face. Again, it's just sort of like, here's a wrinkle in the fabric of what is me? And like, yes, consider this instant, like I have friends that will, it will start conversations or people be like, oh, yeah, cool. Like, like, you know, very distant contact from college that I'm still Facebook friends with, as we all are. And he posted on Facebook, he was like, how does how do you actually become non monogamous? He was like, hey, like, I'm actually interested, how do you do this? And I was like, I got stories for you. I was like, Oh, that was like, if you have questions, let me know. Like, I've been doing this for years. I'm happy to help. But like, it's that sort of weird, interesting, like, loose connection. You're it's just, yeah, I mean, it. Like I said, I haven't had the conversation. I have three older brothers. Like, we don't talk about it. But I don't think anyone would be like, Oh, that's weird. Like, they would just be like, okay, cool. Like, you have multiple partners. That sounds fun.
Jacqueline
Yeah, Effy, can you guide us through any particular language that you think might be helpful for folks as they're trying to think about how to have these conversations?
Effy
Sure, I think I think you nailed it, just find out where they're at first, right? Because then you can also get an idea of which camp they fall on. Right. So if you might actually be, you know, you might find yourself, you know, often we dread, and it's not as bad as you think. So that's just one thing to bear in mind, we actually think that it's going to be a lot worse. And often, it's not as bad as we think. And then it just to find out where they're at, in which camp, they're falling in, right. Because if they're falling in the moral camp, you it's really sort of preparing yourself, that it's, you're just gonna come out and there may or may not be accepted. And you might know, you're may not be, you know, get a chance to explain or anything like that. So, in those cases, I would even, like, do, what are you going to get out of being out, like, have those conversations with yourself, and then you think they're going to fall on the other camp. Just find out what they know, and be prepared to educate. And I think if to know that, you're going to do that. So make sure that you have the emotional labor that you're ready for the emotional labor of that, and, and be ready to answer questions. And I think that's where it's what I mean, about if you seem like you know, what you're doing, or at least you're seeking, you know, being conscious about it. That's where people sort of calm down and sort of allow you the space. So like, come just as much as you can seem like you're least engaged, it's okay to say, I'm working out I think this is my path, and I'm just working it out. And here's some of the ways I'm working it out, you know, and, and just be ready to share some equip your appropriate resources. And, you know, if they're also falling on the camp of, you know, worried if you know, that's what's going to happen, start with them. I'm okay, I'm doing really great. I'm thriving, in fact, and I really want to share with you why I'm thriving right now. You know, most people who come out to be non monogamous often have a history of not doing well in relationships. So like I was saying, I just got sucked at relationships. Often people have stuck struggled before in monogamy. And then they found non monogamy and they're like, Finally, like, I know what I'm doing now. Right? So there's often a transition. So starting with that is a good way like I will I'm struggling with relationships now I'm actually thriving and I want to tell you why what changed. And starting with that is also really helpful. Because they can be like, oh, like, this is a positive you'd like you like grooming, you priming them to receive good news. Rather than, like, sit down, I've got something really important tell you like, it's gonna be okay. Right? And then then there's like, oh, what's gonna happen? You know, like, just start with exactly what you know, I'm thriving, I'm doing really well. I'm learning I have more learning to do. But I really want to share with you also, because, right, because it's important that you see me, it's important that you know, what's going on with me, because I love you, I want to be a part of your life, whatever your truth is, you know. So like, starting from that place, and then getting into it, take your time, it's not going to be one and done, you're not going to have this one conversation, and suddenly, they're going to be okay, there's probably going to be multiple conversations. Start also, um, notice to pause, you know, at some point, if they still want to carry on, you're like, I don't want to keep doing this anymore. Be prepared to pause. I really want to talk to you about this more, I think I'm done for this rounds, can we have a drink? Can we cook something? Can we go for a walk, like, suggest the Spirit what I call a state change, so that you're not then just sitting there and like, in the weight of what you just talked about? And just say, Look, we're gonna have more of these conversations, I want to tell you, you know, I will answer your questions, just not right now. You know, and then of course, be available to have those conversations again. So that's that those are kind of my tips on how to handle that and some of some of the language.
Jacqueline
That's great. Can I ask you some more advice? So you talked a little bit about how there's the two camps, the folks who we want to maybe enter into these conversations, because we know they're concerned, and the folks that potentially we're going to avoid telling them because it comes from a place of not concern, but in judgment or an or values rooted and that might be more challenging. So if we make the decision to not come out at all or to certain people, how can we get comfortable in the not coming out?
Effy
Yeah, that's interesting as as Brad said, it's not so non monogamy is not kink is not a protected class. So unlike, you know, gay folk, we tell them come out, come out, come out, and you come out for the good of the bigger good of the community. That's really not the advice for people who are non monogamous, polyamorous. If it's not going to work for you don't come out. So and this is, you know, he can get fired, you can get your benefits taken away from you, it can become a custody issue, it can become an immigration issue. So it can cause a bunch of issues. So really do think about coming out, I really wish I could be the person that saying come out and wave your flag, right. Um, I would be responsible, if I'm, if I would say that. So think about it, um, make sure that it does make sense that you're coming out. And when we were discussing this panel earlier that the thing I said is, you know, for people who you know, for orientation, you know, come out the closet, for people who are not a protected class, like non monogamy, sometimes that sometimes the thing to think about is like, how do we get comfy in the closet, because rain is no coming out. So in that case, I really encourage people to find community. Um, and these days, we're very lucky, you can do that online. So nobody has to know, there are a bunch of secret and closed groups in on Facebook, you'll find your way. And that's like it. There's online communities, there communities like this, where we provide these closed spaces. I know we're recording this panel, we're not recording you. So you can find and be in spaces in real life and connect with people who support you understanding will see you here, you will be there where you and your struggle. So get comfy in the closet and find some allies. And I think, to be seen and to be heard are very human needs. And I think that's why people come out actually, I think they just want to be seen and heard by the people they love. Just find that one or two people that you really that you can get that back from, and it could be new people, there could be people in the community. And because people understand that dynamic, you'll you will find those people who will be like, I see you and you know, I'm not out either. So I really do encourage you to get comfy in the closet if you have to be in the closet.
Brad
And I think I would just echo that like I think back to the early days of my poly life. And I was in Madison, Wisconsin, and it's a very small community out there but there is a community and like going to the first few poli cocktails which they have in Madison, you know, strangely there's a connection there. But it was like this the sense of like, oh, I can just talk to these people. I can just have a conversation I don't have to like be watching what I'm saying and qualifying and like so I think like if you can't be fully out like find those areas in which you can find those Facebook groups find the like open love NYC we have a relationship anarchy MICU sort of group as well like, like find those communities. I think it's really really powerful.
Effy
And another thing that it's not for everyone but I have a I have a client that's really changed her life, she blogs about it. She has an anonymous blog, she just writes, she just puts it out there, she can't be out. She's a teacher and conservative family. Her way of dealing with it is that she blogs about it. It's an anonymous blog, she gets it out, she writes like, two, three times a week. So any kind of outlet that you can also find is helpful. Just so that, you know, if you have to be in the closet, figure out ways of getting comfy in the closet is what I would say.
Jacqueline
Yeah. So a bunch more questions. But I'm gonna ask one more so that this way I can open up to you guys in case anyone here has any questions, if you so looking back and reflecting back on your experience, I'm wondering if you have a piece of advice to offer, either because something went better than expected. Or perhaps you look back and you're like, I probably should have done that differently. And so reflect backing, reflecting back on your experience, any advice that you would offer, to folks who are thinking about having conversations with people in their lives, and anyone can jump in?
Tiana
I would say the biggest it fits in both of those categories, is checking in with yourself first. What do you want? What do you need? What are your desires? What are your fears, your insecurities, like go through your own personal checklist? Because if you don't if you're not clear on these things, and you can't clearly communicate them, to the people that you need to, and it's a really important conversation. And you have to know all of those things to be able to have it be successful and come to a resolution. And, and a lot of ways I was I was secure. And I knew what I wanted. And I went for it. And then the more expanded and I found myself in other kind of relationship styles within polyamory, I realized I wasn't so honest with myself. And then it totally backfired. It totally blew up in my face. Because people can't read your minds, they don't know what's going on with you. Jealousy happens, insecurity happens, acknowledge it, like, if you let it fester, that's when it becomes a problem. If you never acknowledge these things, then that's when it becomes a problem. But you have to acknowledge it within yourself first, to then clearly communicate with that with the people that love you and care about you.
Speaker 1
Piggybacking on that, also know your boundaries, know what you're willing to talk about with people. You know, if you say I'm not willing to talk about, you know, what this aspect of this particular relationship is, but I'm willing to talk about this other aspect of this other relationship I have, make that known. Because people do ask, and especially if you if, you know, if you're coming out at work, let's say, which I don't want to say either don't or do just know your audience. Which is another thing, you really need to know who you're talking to.
Kim
Personally, I trusted my co workers and they knew not to tell anybody else. But they also knew I said, you know, I'm not, don't ask me about you know, these things. And they're like, Okay, we respect that we're not going to do that. Just tell us how this works. Like, okay, that I'll answer. But you have to know what you're going to be comfortable with answering because people have so many ideas about non monogamy added. I want to say a lot of it is incorrect, because it focusing on the sensational side of it, especially how it's portrayed in the media, they they think of, you know, big love and sister wives and whatever that other reality show is. And they think that's what it's like. So also be prepared. Have your notes, you know, so to speak. Have your talking points.
Brad
It's so funny like that. I think the number one misconception I get is like you must have so much sex all the time. And I'm like, no. Yeah, a lot. A lot of not very sexy conversations. No, I think the thing for me is what Fe was just talking about, like, find that community, right? Find those people. I think I spent a lot of time like worrying and trying to figure out and like just learn from other people. Right, like people have gone through this. We've been doing this since the dawn of time, as far as I'm concerned. Arguably, that's a whole different conversation, but it's uh, yeah, just like find those people and learn from them and ask them questions, because that's going to you're going to be better prepared to have those conversations when you need to have them if you have this knowledge and this experience these like, oh, yeah, see, like these other 10 people did this and they're all alive and they're all okay. And like, here's all the different shit they ran into. I'm gonna learn from their lessons like I'm learning from your lesson, right? It's like, I think that's part of it that I would have I should have done much, much earlier. You know, in the sort of journey for me, it's like, go out there and talk to people.
Jacqueline
And that's the beautiful thing about this conversation too, is it it shows folks on the other side, I think, you know, for many of us in our coming out experiences in various ways, some of it might have been like, you feel like you're holding your breath until you cannot physically hold your breath anymore, and you just have to breathe, and it comes out. And there's that anxiety of like, well, what happens now? And will I survive it, and people are surviving it. So this is like, opportunities of seeing like they made it through. So I'm gonna open it up to the floor. So anybody have questions for this group?
Speaker 2
So when you tell them about not coming out to certain people, how far does that extend, though? Because let's say you, let's say that, you know, someone has a girlfriend, and that girlfriend meets some other guy, is she supposed to not tell him based off of her feeling like he's not going to accept her? Or let's see, if you you meet a woman? And you know, she's going to feel funny. Do you like well, I don't need to tell her because I'm just gonna hit it for tonight. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, what do you do? What's the thing? Do you just not say? Or do you say, you know, regardless, because you're letting people know, like, this is?
Brad
It's I mean, it's a good question. I mean, in the end, then dating specifically, yes, yeah. I gotta go back to like, I try to be as straightforward as like, transparent as whatever about it. There's certainly, as I mentioned, like, different dating apps have different sort of levels of, you know, disclosure upfront. There are certainly instances where like, you just have to ask yourself, like, how is this person going to react to it? And is it worth having that conversation for the nature? And I guess, duration of this relationship? Right? Like, is it is it worth the I mean, on one hand, part of me says be that community builder be that educator and be like, I'm going to tell you this, and if this is going to blow up in my face, I'm okay with that. I think that's one of the things that like being relationship anarchists, like you always have to be sort of, okay with, like, things not going the way you want to expect them to. So you sort of have to, like, accept that, like, alright, this might suck, but, you know, it's better for me, it's better for, you know, the greater good, whatever it may be. But it's just like this constant calculation of like, Who is this person? What's, where are they? Like, I need to meet them where they are? What's my relation to them? How long do I intend on relating to this person? It's like, I don't have a good answer. I wish I had a good answer. But it's calculus, lots of calculus.
Effy
Can I just have a quick side? Can you speak like two sentences explaining what relationship anarchy is? Because I'm wondering, does anybody not know what relationship anarchy is? Yes, yeah.
Brad
Yeah, so the the sort of core premise, I hate the term anarchy, AX, I'm trying to rebrand it. It's more like autonomy than anarchy, which we can keep RA and everyone will be happy with. So essentially, there's like sort of two or three core beliefs to it. One is that there's like no hierarchy, there's no structure, right? So the way that I tend to phrase that is like, I never want to be the reason for someone else to not do something. And it's like, we're all adults here. Whatever you do on your own time is up to you. And that's all great. And obviously, there may be side effects and whatnot. But it's really like you're up to make your own decisions. And you should be mindful and aware of the impact that those decisions have on the people on your life and on your relationships. And this sort of second, like, I think big core premise in relationship anarchy is like, a lot of relationships have rules, like there are no rules in a sort of relationship, anarchy, this world, there are boundaries, and there are preferences. So I can say the preference, which is that I prefer, you know, to date non smokers, and like, I don't smoke cigarettes, myself, etc. That is a preference. And I can state that preference. And my partners then know that and can, you know, behave, how they how they will, a boundary is that if I am on a date with you, or if I'm like going to see you that day, I do not want you to smoke a cigarette because I don't like the smell and the taste and whatnot. So like, if we're out together and you pull out a cigarette and you light up like I'm going home. So like that, I think that's a very illustrative example of a preference versus the boundary versus a rule would say you can't smoke cigarettes, right? Like I can't I can't tell you what to do. I'm in no position to do that. I think that's sort of a pretty good or and that we can get up we can go down the sort of path of like, well, you know, there are intimate relationships that romantic relationships, their sexual relationships, those are all sort of different but they're all just like the same, right? There's no There's no hierarchy. It's not like oh, I I give more weight to my intimate sexual relationships versus my romantic versus my friends like your coworker you have a relationship with every single person you've ever encountered in your life, right? Like the person on the subway you like made eye contact with or like, if you have any sort of interaction with you have a relationship with them. It's just the nature of like, how deep and how, you know, sort of close So whatever that relationship is so true relationship anarchist, like we don't we don't prioritize anyone over anyone else. It's kind of a weird thing. Like I said, this is a sit down conversation usually.
Effy
I appreciate the DLT.
Brad
Yeah, I think I think that's, I think that's a good sort of brief, I've gotten really good at giving that sort of two minute version of it or whatever.
Effy
Great. Back to the question, which was, how, who do you tell, right? Who do you tell in dating, my situation is slightly different. If I want to be honest about what I do, it comes out quite quickly. So I tell everyone, and then personally, I don't have casual sex, not because I am against scheduled sex, I'm just not a casual person, I don't really do anything casually. And that just reflects on casual unsex, too. So um, and it's not a judgement on casual sex, like, I'm very pro other people having casual sex. You know, I could see people having healthy casual sex. It's just not it's just not, it doesn't doesn't work for me. So by the time I'm having sex with somebody, we already know each other pretty well. So it's, it's a conversation that, that it's already happened. But do I tell the person who makes my coffee and my local coffee store? You know, and it's interesting, because that person sees me with both of my partners. So, so he's wondering why I'm holding hands with a guy, and then next day with another guy, but we haven't had that conversation. No, I haven't explained.
Tiana
I think it's kind of a personal decision. You know, that's sort of the ethical part of it all, you know. And so if you feel that, like, I think the investment that you have in that person is going to be more than just like a hit it or quit, it was kind of like one of your questions like I hit it acquitted, I think it doesn't matter your relationship style, you know, like, that's what it is, you know, and you quit, you go, you gotta go about your life. But if you have someone that is steady in your life, and then you're also doing hit it and quit, it's that person that's sitting in your life should probably know about the hidden quits, you know. So it depends on your relationship structure. And you know, what ethically you personally feel responsible for, and the people that you're related to, and you know, how you feel ethically responsible to them. So it's about the agreements, I feel like you make with the people around you, that it really matters, you know, at the end of the day, because no one can say boo about your relationship, but except for within, you know, that relationship. But you want to do it as best as possible without breaking you know, too many hearts or you know, you want to do it in a way that's not leaving you a monster at the end of the day. And I think that comes down to like open communication and transparency and being like, This is who I am. This is how I live. So for me personally, I'll absolutely polyamory is like I put it as the first thing, poly kinky kid. And like, that's like, how I open up my profile, because that's who I am and how I identify. And then like, Yes, I talk about my partners, because they're so intertwined in my life, that it's hard for me to not tell a story about my partners, or you know, I can't not avoid it, you know, almost like Effy, it is in her perfume, you talk about your profession, and it just naturally comes up. And I don't want to have to navigate or you know, step on landmines about what I can and cannot say to certain people. So for me, I'm just open book, I'm just like, ask whatever you want is gonna come out, like, you know, we have that open agreement. So that's what works for me. But absolutely, you decide what works best for you and the people that you're involved with.
Kim
I do want to say that personally, I was in a situation where we didn't, there was one person that we didn't talk about things with. And it made things really difficult. When you can't say, oh, I'm going to see so and so later on, and you kind of have to hide it and you kind of oh, what are you doing? Oh, well, I'm like, I'm gonna get Yeah, exactly. And you can't be honest with it. You kind of feel shitty at the end of the day, and you're like, I don't know why I'm hiding this from you. Because I know it's gonna hurt your feelings. But at the same time, it's not fair to anybody. So again, I'm like, Fer no do the casual thing. So or very rarely. So it's and it's a small world finds out anyway, yeah. Other questions?
Jacqueline
I'm gonna go back there and then I'll go over here. Yeah, yeah, go here first. Okay.
Speaker 4
Okay, so a group I find I have really hard time with our friends who are married and monogamous. So whenever I want to try to explain to them and also be sure that they accept on their partners, right. That's very important to me. And I usually find that either they try to shut it down because they're like, no Less matter of belief and you're going to ruin our marriage. Like, tell me more I was like no. So, and I've lost friendships that way to accept my partners, and building out the community has helped a lot too, because I have people who have except to my brothers. So I wonder what your guys's experience was, if there's a bridge?
Tiana
Yes, I have actually friends that have that problem. So it's funny, I'm kind of adjacent to it. So I've heard her dilemma with having to deal with that I personally have dealt with is like, I'm going in there. Like they think I'm a man stealer. And I come in and snatch up my husband, and insanely now your husband knew I'm good. I gotta plenty actually. So I think it comes back from like, the education standard, and like being clear about your intentions, like this is the person that visa people that I'm committed to, you know, this is what I subscribe to, and kind of I think, just poke, like, call the elephant out. You know, like, for you specifically, I don't want like people listening to this, this apply to everyone. But for you, specifically, I would suggest like, Hey, I feel that there's this discomfort because of x, y, z, let's talk about it, you know, like, Let's breathe air into like this space, that's a vacuum. And so I think because if they are your friends, they would want to do that for you to for the health of your relationship. And then to know of like, This is who I am, this is what I want. And it part of that is you, you don't need to accept it, but respect it. You know, like my favorite quote, and kink is like don't yuck my yum. And I think that's like, it's so applies and so many things, you know, like, yes, it doesn't have to be your Yum, but don't Yuck, it, you know, like, let's at least be on that baseline of respect. And like for me, once you can have that, then everything else can flourish from there. But yeah, you just gotta call it out. Like if you're feeling that from them, if they're your friends, you should be able to call out your friends. That's how I am with my friends, like we call each other out like so like, once you can address that, then everything else I think can go a bit smoother.
Jacqueline
Has anyone else felt that either coming out? Well, as buyer pen or poly suddenly, then now means that you're attracted to the person. And now you're a threat.
Brad
I think that's why I don't bring it up at work a lot is that I have like alluded to it. And people just assume that if you're non monogamous that you just want like you're attracted to everyone. You're like, whoa, and like, God forbid, yeah, you mentioned it all that like I'm hetero flexible. And it's like, everyone's on the board. Yeah. I mean, I think I don't have a lot to add to what's already been said, it's just like, I'm the type of person that like I have, I will call people out. And I'll be like, Yo, this is like, you're being an asshole, right? Like you're treating me and all my partners like shit. So stop doing that. And if you're going to continue to do that, then I don't want you in my life. Like, I don't want to say like, get rid of your friends. But if they're not willing to meet you halfway, and they're not willing to have that conversation, and they'll accept who you are, then like, they're probably not very good friends.
Jacqueline
And sometimes, often my experience, so I part of the work that I do is as a coach, and people will talk through some of their challenges in communicating change that they're going through with people in their lives. And often that is because the people who in their lives who are hearing about their change may want to go through change themselves. And there are things that are barriers for them. And so their resistance and judgment could be rooted in the fact that they're like, that's not what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to play by the rules, we're supposed to file, right? So you can't go offline, because then then that makes me question in the middle of the night, if I actually have the flexibility to do something different. And those aren't questions that I'm willing to ask myself right now. So could be more about them honestly, then about you.
Brad
It almost always is. Yeah. They're projecting?
Jacqueline
Question.
Speaker 5
So I want to ask there's, there's a timeframe between the like, understanding what you'd want come in wanting to come out and getting away from like monogamy that we've all been taught growing up, and to the place that you were, you mentioned, where you're like, I'm doing really well. There's like a space in between where you're still shedding all those layers to try and figure all that out. And maybe you're looking for a community or you're looking for people, but you guys still haven't gotten in a good healthy relationship yet. You're still in that shit. Like, can you talk a little bit about that part of your journey and any advice you might have for people?
Brad
I think the first thing that jumps out to me is like it's not a linear progress, right? It's cyclical for me that sometimes it's like, you go through this and you're like, things are great. And then like you break up with a run, you're like, I'm terrible. They just don't know how to date and like no one loves me, right? Like, it's not just like, it's not just you climb the mountain, then you're you're there like it's the system Sisyphean thing where it's like, you get to the top and then it all falls apart. And then you're like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing. Am I doing it wrong? Should I go back to being monogamous? Right? Like, the answer is no. Like, some people, it's yes, but it's probably no. So I think, yeah, it's, it's, it's a lot of self care. It's a lot of like, sort of being aware of where you are, and being okay with that, I think we sort of beat ourselves up all the time of like, I'm not doing it right. I'm not whatever enough. I go through this a lot with like, in the kink scene where it's like, I'm not kinky enough, I'm not, you know, blank enough for that. Just like sort of being okay with where you are, again, like seeking peers and community and reading other people's stories, I think that can help a lot. But just recognize that it's going to be this cyclical thing over time, right, you're gonna go through, like, you're sort of, you know, your early 20s And your mid 20s. And then you're, like, you know, as your life changes, as you move to different cities, we've changed jobs, whatever it may be, like, it's this ongoing process. And you just kind of have to, like, it gets easier as you go through it a few times, like our second third cycle, I kind of know what it's like, but just you gotta sort of take care of yourself and be okay with that, which is, I guess, easy to say. But it's okay. It's okay. It's a cycle.
Effy
I think if you're in that middle state, and you're worried about coming out about that, I think it just being the people that can tolerate that and support you in that period. So people who can tolerate you saying I'm confused without necessarily wanting to, you know, without wagging your finger at you going well, of course, you're confused, you're doing this crazy thing, you know, and they they kind of allow you the space to figure it out. And I think it's important to know who those people are in your life during transition. So a lot of the time transition you know, we'd liken it to you know, the metaphor is always the butterfly coming out of you know, the coming out of a cocoon, right, the the what is the second the caterpillar, the caterpillar coming out, thank you, kind of really coming out into a butterfly. But the, the part that I feel like is often missed is the cocooning process, like the butterfly doesn't mean that the caterpillar doesn't suddenly become a butterfly, it first creates a cocoon and then goes to transition. So I think we don't talk about that cocooning period, which is the confusion and like transformation period. And that is for me, a cocooning is like, you know, community, people, knowledge, mentors, wisdom that I like cocoon myself in. And in that, in that in that cocoon of people who can tolerate that transition, because transition is not only painful for you, but painful for pretty much anybody around you. And not everybody can tolerate that. So knowing who those people are, who can sit with you, when you're saying, in good suit with you, when you're saying I'm confused. I don't know what I'm doing. You know, I, you know, I would tell a person, right? Who can be like, Oh, okay, I'm gonna hold space for you. You know, as you fall apart and get back together again, I think that's, you know, figuring out who those people are. And talking to those people in those transition times, I think is important.
Tiana
I guess for me, I had my transition period, I realized was when I, all my partners, I had like five partners, but they were all married. And so even though I found myself, like, oh, always busy, always with hardware, they're in there. And then there'd be times where like, everybody was busy with their families, and it was just like, Oh, I'm alone now. Okay. So then I had to come up with new coping mechanisms and create new hobbies for myself and, you know, do different things that instead, I realized I was also busying myself with my partners. And so I was like, do I need these many partners? You know, it allowed me to call into a lot of things into check of, you know, myself and allowed for self reflection that I hadn't given myself time for, because I had unindicted myself with so many partners, that until they were literally all dispersed and preoccupied that I had that space, you know, for, you know, what do I need and coming back to that again? And then coping with like, how do I deal with not having my partners around and being by myself and, and yes, I hung out with my friends, I wasn't just all about my partners, but even like, what do I do, even if I don't want to busy myself with friends, you know. So those are, I think, a really important thing to remember, especially in the transitional period of like, you have to take yourself on a date, you have to take care of yourself first. Because that's the only way you're going to continue to be a better partner and to the people around you.
Kim
One thing my transition was actually pretty easy. I found my people pretty much right away. However, the part of the transition that I still struggle with Is being a mom? How do I balance being a mom being there for my daughter and being there for her for school for? She's currently going through some health issues, and just generally doing the mom thing. So how do I balance that, and also the stigma of moms don't date. Your one goal in life is to be a mom, and you're just a mom, and you cease to be a human being. That's something that I constantly struggle with. But other than that, yeah.
Jacqueline
So yeah, so my nine to five, I am a change strategists. And so the work that I do is about helping people either initiate change, or navigate through change that has happened to them. And really, the work that we do is in three steps, it's tuning in tuning out, and then figuring out how to get moving. And so part of what you hear them saying is figure out how you can tune in to what is happening for you, it is the equivalent of figuring out what your internal GPS is, which is really difficult, because essentially, you are on a conveyor belt of a prescribed path. And then at some point, something disrupted either internally, something happened or something shifted externally, were like The Matrix, you woke up and realize, oh, this conveyor belt is not for me. And that was the path of least resistance. And now you have to go about the business of exploring a new path for yourself, which is really challenging. And so part of that process is giving yourself permission, almost like when we were kids, and we were playing the game of hot and cold, and someone hit something, and you go this way. And it's like not that way, and you go over here, you're getting warmer, getting warmer. And that's the process of exploration that we have to go through. And so they're going to be moments where you're like, I'm going to try this thing that was not it wasn't it goes that door, and like, Oh, this feels good. This is starting to feel warmer and warmer. And allowing that process to happen is a part of you're tuning in. And that's really sacred space, that space, when you're super fragile. That space, when you're really curious, that's Eclipse space, where you're not necessarily going to be sharing out all the details of everything you're doing because the next day, you may feel different. And so in the same way that we shared about finding the folks who you can share those things, your cheerleaders who you know, no matter what you say, will be like, that's fantastic. Those are the people that you want around, you know, sometimes our brain will say, I want to surround myself with folks who will litmus test, like is this okay? And is this normal and is don't go to those people and resist that urge, just the people who think everything is great, during that real sacred time of tuning in. The tuning out is essentially, as you're tuning into your GPS, it's almost like if you're in the car, and the radio is too loud, and you can't hear the GPS, you got to tune out the radio. And so what messages then do you have to start tuning out in your community, what you're digesting your podcasts, your social media feeds, your the conversations you're having at work at Thanksgiving, what do you need to tune out of, so that you can continue to keep focused on what you've tuned into. And once you've created that environment where you can make that transition of now I'm starting to feel a little more secure, I've done some experimenting, I have a little more of a sense of who I am. I've done some curating of my community. So I feel like I have two legs to stand on and people who support me, then the next step is okay, I'm going to do some stuff, maybe I'm going to start to tell some people I'm going to start to make some movement, I'm going to that process of tuning in and tuning out and then making some steps of getting moving, is what
Unknown Speaker
I would encourage. Yeah, I have a question about the group of people that you mentioned Fe about the ones who are not the ones to come out to experience in dealing with that we've been non monogamous for more than a decade and really comfortable with it and then began coming out much more to our friends and our communities and in setting up a serious relationship because it was a partner that was part of our lives and and I think just through work and with friends just really got very comfortable with it and and were able to navigate all those difficult conversations and then I Christian conservative parents, and it got to be too much the denial and the hiding and the attempting to cover up and so I made this to come out to my parents, which has not gone well. So and So unfortunately, that relationship then ended and so, you know, my mom has sort of said I will accept this, you know, I won't accept this part of you. And you know, I have another I don't have a partner say you must accept this person right now. But you know, I came out as both queer and polyamorous at the same time. It's like it was too much for them. And so, but in terms of what you said about like being comfy in the closet, I don't think there's going back in the closet and so like learning how to navigate those relationships with people who are like, I will not accept that part of you but not wanting to sacrifice a part of yourself answers are very important.
Effy
I think, as your summarize, you answered the question, which is you have to tolerate a discomfort. You just, you know, especially if people like parents, mom, dad, things, people, you're not going to come out of your life like, unlikely, you know, you just get comfortable with the discomfort that you just know that, you know, you don't bring it up, you know, you don't bring it up unless you have to, you know, you don't rub it in, and you realize that's just one part of you, they're not going to accept, it's painful, because those are the people that we want the most acceptance from. So it just takes practice, and it takes, and then you and you just concentrate on the parts that are working. And also, this is a bit more nuanced than that the part of it as a yearning for approval from parents is actually a younger part of you from, you know, many, many years years ago. So there's there needs to be some sort of internal parenting of the of that young person that's looking for approval, and sort of self parent in that way, give yourself the approval, and then almost extend that parenting, nurturing compassion to your parents, and that they are in ability to meet you where you're at, and kind of, you know, forgive them and sort of throw compassion their way, and just surround yourself with people who are like your cheerleaders. Does that make sense? Yeah.
Brad
I think something I might add, and this is like not, it's sort of tangentially related, but I was thinking about it. And it's so I mentioned at the onset of my father's Jehovah's Witness, and like, to this day, he's like, by the Bible, you know, everything, we just don't talk about it. Right? Like, I'm a very secular, very, like science, whatever person. And we just like, like, I remember being younger being a teenager, and he'd be like, well, he'd be talking about Adam and Eve. And I'm like, who's Adam, who's even really angry, he get really agitated. And that was, of course, being an asshole, because I was a teenager. But it was also like, sort of exploring those boundaries and sort of figuring out like, how do I relate to this person, which was my father, who was going to be my father for the rest of his in my life? And like, what, like, how do I relate to this person? So I think, sort of maybe piggybacking on that, like, you have to sort of figure out, how do you cope with that? And what are the things that you can still maintain a relationship with this person with these people, without agitating them? And like, just understanding that, like, yeah, it's like this, we're, I will never see eye to eye with him. This and he will bring up parables from the Bible, and I'm just like, okay, dad, like, that's just kind of how I have to deal with that, because I'm never gonna get to a point where he and I see eye to eye, but I think the approach is always to sort of try to explain your sort of beliefs and your viewpoint from a sort of standpoint of compassion, and that you want them to understand you. Like, it's like, your, this is someone I care about this is someone, I want you to understand this part of me. So let me try to explain where I'm coming from and why I feel this way. And you may not agree, but this is just what it is. And you still have to feel out that relationship and like how to address that.
Effy
I think I also want to add that it's also it's, this is hard, it's easier said than done. But realize that it's not really about you, it's not personal, it's really about you, you know, bullied people who are faced by belief structures, or like the scaffolding that holds your psyche. So if you challenge that you're like, you're essentially like pulling off, right? You shaking their world, and because that person happens to be your mom, it feels very personal. But if you can, for a second sight, sidestep that relationship, think about the person who has, you know, a very strong belief structure that is like the scaffolding of their of their psyche, if you shake it, that's like, that's, that's an earthquake, you know. So you, that's why they're like, I can't accept that. It's not because they don't love you, it's because they have to have their psyche intact, you know. And I think sometimes you can, if you can sidestep that, that mother daughter relationship, and just recognize the individual whose they exist in the world, the individual, and this is a big part of them. And this is, you know, structurally really important to them, you might also find a little bit of internal peace.
Speaker 6
Along the lines of what we've talked about before it is it's not necessarily in a bad place, but I'm an ill defined plays, I don't really know where I am yet discovering where I am coming out of a long term marriage. And so, if I come across a question, not even what if I wanted to describe, you know, I am to prospective vates it's, I don't even know what I am. And, you know, I don't want to get myself this label, Holly, because that sounds like I'm having sex with hundreds of women every every week. And it's not really you know, I don't think I'm in casual sex or maybe that's my social anxiety poking or, you know, who I really don't know what I am. So how do you sort of describe yourself and just say other than coming out and saying, I don't know what they are, I am
Jacqueline
any language that you can provide around And how do we communicate when we are in transition?
Brad
I think you kind of talked yourself through it honestly, that just just to be like, like, I don't actually, like, here's the, here's the context, here's the history of where I'm coming from. And here's where I am right now. And I don't know, where I'm necessarily going. And I don't know what's next. But just to be like, I tried this, it didn't work. I'm trying this new thing you like, and you need to, especially if it's someone that you're going to be investing in the relationship with, and trying to build something longer term, like, you're gonna have to figure this out with me. Like, we're in this together. And like, I don't know what's gonna happen, and I'm gonna do my best to be a good partner to you, and to do well by you, but it's like, you just kind of have to, I've been there where it's like, I don't know what's going on. I am like, I think it's honestly, you're better off doing that than pretending like, you know, because if you project this image of stability, that you think you know what's going on. And then like, three months later, you're like, oh, actually, by the way, I was wrong. That's a worse look than being like, I have no idea what the fuck is going on?
Effy
I agree, speak your truth is often the answer. And if your truth is your donor, what you're doing right now and you're transitioning, just explain that. And the here's, I want to recognize the difficulty that you will have, because just the stigmas around men who are saying, I don't know what I'm doing, there is a stigma attached to that, right, because it just seems like you that your commitment phobe that your player, like I want to acknowledge that that is a thing. And that is a challenge. If you're like, starting to date, and you're like, I don't know what I'm doing, you know, and we're like, got another one. Right. So this is a truth. And I want to I want to, like you know, so just explain the context is helpful. And just say, like, I want to be transparent, and just be like, I want to be transparent. Provide the context. And just recognize that it might be frustrating for the other person, but just say that I want to be really honest and transparent with you and protect you. This is where I am, and just realize that you might have to fight and get, you know, not fight, you might have to just deal with that kind of feedback, you know, yeah, yeah,
Jacqueline
the reason why transition is scary is because the unknown is scary. And so for yourself, you're wondering why I don't want to lock myself into something and then want something differently in the future. And for the other person, well, I don't want to fall in love with you in this state, and then you're going to change. And that is the state of being in relationship when you get together 20 something and now and you're married for you change every five years, every 10 years, like you're a different person anyway. And so I think rooting it in instead of a specific memorized message, but but in vulnerability, I was involved in in marriage, and it was beautiful. And it was a lot of lessons learned. And what I realized now is that there's so much of me that I still want to explore. And I'm interested in how you person who I'm sitting across from have navigated through and figured out who you are, and enjoying inviting them to be a part of the conversation about transition and change and exploration. In the same way that Fe said, When you come out not to say, I have something to tell you. But be like, you know, there's I realized some things and I have some stuff to tell you if we go into it with. Okay, so I don't know what I'm doing. But right if you go in with that energy, as opposed to, I gotta tell you, I'm in a place right now, where I'm really trying to figure stuff out, which is not like me, I'm somebody who like, wants to know, and I have given myself permission to explore and it's been amazing. Have you are you tell me a little bit about what you're exploring? And what you have figured out that energy in that conversation feels really different and much less scary than this kind of I don't know what's going to happen. But, you know, we're all have to deal with it when it comes.
Tiana
That's helpful. Yeah, my favorite thing is what I suggest also to people that are like looking to start the steps are one person is like, into it, but the other person is in and you're sort of like, let me take you by the hand and, you know, show you the things is like, let's read something together. You know, these are the books that I've read, let's read them together. These are the workshops that I've gone to let me introduce you to these people, you know, so if you're, you're not really sure you could at least like show the groundwork of like, this is what I've invested in. So you don't seem like the player who's just like trying to, you know, stick your dick and whatever, you know, it's like, I'm invested in these people in this lifestyle. You know, I've educated myself in this way, you know, so it's more of you sharing what you've discovered, as you're discovering it. And then you find other workshops together, you know, you find other events to go to together so that way you have new experiences together as you're both learning, but at least you can start with like what you've already learned and discovered and that way they don't think that you're just this, you know, Fly By Night kind of person that you're really invested in this.
Effy
Or if you want to be a flyweight person, just say that right? Yeah, that's an option too. Yeah. Right now. I know I'm not ready to have a conversation about really You know, when I kinda want to have fun, you want to have fun, you know? And that can be like, sure it can be like, No, I'm not into like, great. Now we're on the same page, right? So it's okay to be fine. But just as long as you're transparent about what you're doing, yeah, exactly, yeah.
Jacqueline
Okay. All right. So I appreciate first, I appreciate you guys for coming here, I imagine that you're here, because you were trying to figure out what you're going to do and who you're going to talk to, this is a scary place to be in. So know that you're amongst a group of people. If you are feeling confused and curious, you have come to the right place, welcome, confusing, curious and really kind of trying to navigate this path alongside each other. And then I want to thank the panel, because it is not easy. They are not experts in this thing. They are coming and just sharing their story. So I would love to give just a round of applause. To people sharing their story, um, just a few things. Again, if some of the questions that have come up around legal protections on October 23, we do have the like world leader in non traditional families and law coming here to talk to us and so it'll be in the same space. And you had mentioned a few times about considering new things. And so that's a fantastic way to plug that on November 17, which is a Sunday, we're going to be having our conference called consider this. And it is essentially a day of challenging the status quo by exploring different topics and perspectives and way of being. And so it's like a TED Talk like conference where there gonna be people coming and speaking on different things. We have entertainers, we have panel discussions that invite you to just consider this. And so we hope that you will see you there. We're in the midst of planning it and you'll hear more about that soon. We're all going to hang out for a bit down here you can go upstairs and grab a drink. And we thank you for your time and energy tonight.
Effy
Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind, and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious, curious, curious, curious, stay curious.
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