Ep 9: Hierarchy vs Non-hierarchy Discussion Group (LIVE)

Art by @rorymidhani

What is relationship hierarchy?

Effy and Jacqueline lead this lively discussion where Foxes shared from the heart as always. Unlike our usual panel discussion, we tried out a different format where we held a discussion group focusing on hierarchy in open and polyamorous relationships.   

To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla on Instagram.

If you have a question that you would like to explore on the show, reach out to us and we may answer your question on one of our upcoming episodes. Leave us a voicemail at 646-450-9079 or email us at listening@wearecuriousfoxes.com

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TRANSCRIPT:

Effy

Good evening, everyone. Nice to have everyone I guy oh, this is a new setup. I like this new setup, I get to see everyone rounds. I like it. Welcome, everyone. My name is Effy Blue.

Jacqueline

So my name is Jacqueline Misla. We'll do formal introductions in a little bit beforehand, I want to give you a sense of the structure. So as a part of doing this work, I do lots of other things, including facilitating. And so I know sometimes walking into a room with a circle can feel really intimidating. So I want to explain out what's happening tonight. So generally, we do on the first Wednesday of every month, we do panel discussions, and we decided to do something a little different this time around. So we're gonna be having a facilitated dialogue, as opposed to a panel discussion. And there are two reasons for that. One is the impetus is that many of our seasons boxes that we would generally have for our panels, we're at Burning Man, and so many of them are still dusty, are in the post burn kind of recovery phase. And but that actually created a great opportunity for us, because we've been hearing from folks for a while that they wanted more of a discussion opportunity, they wanted some events, where not only were we listening to people tell their stories, but we were telling our stories and asking questions and having dialogue and learning from the people in the room. And so this felt like a fantastic opportunity to do just that. And so as a result of that, I'm going to share with you a little bit about what we're thinking in terms of structure we are, you're gonna get all the things that you normally get from a panel. So you're gonna get personal stories and practical tips, and camaraderie and moments of clarity and asking questions and having answers. And on top of that, we're gonna have an extra thing, which is you. And we get to hear your stories and your personal questions, and you get to ask things to the expert, and have your questions answered. And we will have an opportunity to really share out what are our struggles and the lessons learned. Sometimes we come to events, and we hear all the best practices. And we don't have an opportunity to say this thing is really hard. And it feels like it sucks. And so we wanted to create space where we can say this is really hard, and it feels like it sucks. And you have a room full of people being like yes, yeah, no, absolutely, it's true. And this is how I got through that moment. And so we wanted to create that space. And so Effy and I are going to facilitate the conversation, we're going to share our own stories, and struggles and lessons learned. And then we are going to create opportunities for everyone else to weigh in and share what is both weighing you down and lifting you up about this thing that we call love, and relationships. So if you are new, curious Fox is a community that is dedicated to challenging the status quo in love sex, and relationships, or work centers around changing the noise. And so that more and more people can can attend and read and hear and watch stories that give them both permission and inspiration to see other options outside of the status quo. That and the prescribed ways of love and relationship that we receive growing up in society. And so this space is just for you to hear other options and go, Oh, I didn't know that was a thing. Or like you're doing that and and it's working. Hmm. Right. So inspiration possibility to see things that are different. Not only can you find that in this space in this room, but you can find us on Facebook and Instagram at werecuriousfoxes.com.

Effy

So a little bit about us. So, my name is Effy Blue. As I said, I'm a relationship coach, I predominantly work with people who are navigating curious about or transitioning into open relationships. So that's kind of what I do by day. I'm also the founder of curious Fox, curious fox came from a desire for for a need for community to do this work with other people. And that's why this happened. And I'm always grateful for people turning up. I also created a workshop and then wrote a book on Play parties. So if you're interested in exploring sex parties, I have some material called Play party etiquettes and we're about to launch the second editions beautiful illustrated version of it that is going to be available middle of this month, so we're really excited. That's kind of my world.

Jacqueline

My name is Jacqueline Misla. Again, I am the chief operating officer or the chief of operations of foxes when chief Fox operation, essentially manifest the dream. So Effy dreams that up, and I figure out how to make it happen. In my nine to five day job, I'm a chain strategist, I work with organizations and agencies around navigating through change. I also do that with people one on one. So I'm a coach, I work a lot with folks who are in change in transition in their careers. And oftentimes that those career conversations are really a gateway to larger conversations around life changes that people want to have. And so we talk about all the ways in which we have built lives around what we were told we were supposed to do, and how we certainly we get to a point where the voice inside is finally loud enough for us to hear that we don't want to do it that way anymore. But we don't know how to navigate past that. And so I do that one on one. And I founded an organization that specifically focuses on supporting women around all of the prescribed roles that we are given, and how do we navigate past those roles and craft our own paths. And so in addition to doing this work, we do that, and the through line of all the things that you've heard us talk about is that we believe in the possibility and potential of thriving outside of all of the structured ways that we've been told. And we want to create spaces and dialogue for people to tap into their curiosity and have discussion and learn from each other about those ways. And so that's us. And now we want to hear about you.

Effy

Yeah, exactly. You've heard a lot from us. We're going to take a breather and add some new voices into the conversation. So what I'd love to do is pass this mic around. And if you can, just nice sort of structure is your name, your preferred pronouns, because we want to be inclusive. What brought you here today? Why this topic? If it's particularly the topic that you're here, your relationship design as it is today? So if you who you're dating, who do you want to date you solo you're looking to date, something that gives us an idea of like, where you are in your relationship journey.

Jacqueline

So name pronouns, what brought you here, a question that you have or something and your relationship design?

Effy

Is that okay? Okay, great. I'm gonna start this way.

Hasheem

All right, what's up my name is Hasheem was the pronoun he. And we all bought me here was, like, always, like this event, this event is cool. And I learned a lot from here. So I wanted to come through to check it out as my wife Robin next to me, and, you know, we were talking about this topic actually, a few times. So I was like, let's, let's go here and check it out.

Robin

I'm, Robin, she, what brought me here, I've been trying to get to these events as much as possible, which means like, a few times a year, but it's still come. And relationship design, Hashem and I have been married for five years, we've been together for over 10 years, and never monogamous and and in the last, I think, four years, we've really, I've really been learning a lot more about what that means. And we've been exploring, with help from communities, how to do that in a way that's healthy and feels good.

Jim

Hi, my name is Jim. And I'm a school teacher. I do this circle formation a lot. So I feel right at home. But I'm not at work. Today, I was describing something my wife is working on. She's working on a book. And the teacher I was talking to just turned to me at one point and said, Jim, when you talk about your wife, it sounds like you have the most vibrant and wonderful relationship. And part of that is because we're here, and she's at a Writers Conference. And the fact that we've gone through the work of adding this to our lives has just had exponential wonderful effects on the kind of people we are.

Barbara

Well, I'm not used to being in circles. But my name is Barbara, and I've come to bunch of curious foxes and I like them because they're really teach me a lot. I mean, I've been in poly relationships before, but I feel like I'm always learning and I'm Chi. And this subject actually was very interesting to me because I think it's a good question. When you're not married, or have a primary partner, how you how you fit into relationships that are well established, and I thought it would be very interesting subject. So thank you.

Justin

Hi, Justin Brennan. He, for me, what brought me to curious Fox in this event specifically is that my partner and I have been an open relations Ship non monogamous sexually, but romantically we just don't understand like the poly side at all. So I'm just trying to really get that perspective because I just don't empathize with it right now. And I just moved over to New York City from DC. So I'm really just trying to make friends understand the scene and just meet new folks.

Caitlin

Hi, I'm Caitlin, my pronouns are she and her. I am not in any long term relationship right now. I'm dating here and there. But I'm trying to figure out what ethical non monogamy means for me. It's something that I've been interested in it makes sense. For me, I think, but I, I need to know more about it. And I'm dating some folks who are non monogamous. And so I'm, I'm really enjoying it. And I don't know if you know, I want a primary partner, I don't know if something non hierarchical would work for me. But I, I didn't want to learn more. And my friend brought me here. So thanks.

David

I'm David. And I'm sitting to the right of my lovely wife over here. So we we've been, together 10 years, married five and open for for, and similar to Jim, I would say has had exponentially positive benefits effects on our relationship. And at the same time, I feel like we're still learning. So I'm, I'm here I'm curious about the hierarchy versus we like to think of ourselves in terms of the relationship structure as hierarchical. But I'm curious to learn more about the different arrangements and how it all works. And just learn more, because we're constantly learning together.

Laura

Hi, I'm Laura. And it's she/her. And I think that David covered most of it. But um, yeah, I think that throughout the past four years, there's been like, a lot of, there's been challenges and a lot of growth. And that's one of the primary reasons that I'm ethically non monogamous and Polly, and I just am including more education within that growth. As well as you know, that the that growth that I get from my partners and my husband,

Virginia

Hi, I'm Virginia, and she, her. And I learned about these events, and I try to come to them when I can, I'm not in town a lot. So I saw this, and I was like, I can make it. And the topic also is interesting. For me, I've been married eight years, been with my husband for probably almost 1920 years. And we opened our relationship up. We had the conversation about four years ago. And kind of completely on our own. I heard about it through my sister's like, friend, and I was like, what does this mean? And I looked it up, and I was like, This is amazing. Um, so we kind of I've been, I don't know, I just did it on my own and didn't really have a lot of people to talk to. I actually live in Boston. But I work in New York, so. So it was actually kind of cool to come when I'm in New York when you started this and a friend introduced me to I was like, oh, okay, cool, I need to meet some people find a community. So in terms of, I guess, the structure what I have, right now I have a boyfriend, it's been about three years, my husband has a girlfriend, and I love her. It's amazing. And my boyfriend is awesome. And, and I kind of didn't like this idea of hierarchy, just, I kind of wanted it to be a little more like a, like a circle, you know, so I don't, I didn't really know exactly what we're doing. We're still learning constantly, and trying to figure it out. And like, you know, trying to figure out how, what would happen when we start dating new people, that kind of thing. But the hierarchy is a hard thing. And I also, I also have a six year old, so with my husband, and I don't like having people above people, it's weird, but in a weird way, kind of you have to put some certain people above so don't really understand what I'm going to do so. So I thought it'd be kind of cool. We're just going with the flow, kind of dealing with problems and working together. So...

Doc

Kind of in your river on that flow. piece. My name is Doc Hill. Been married seven years, my wife and I have been together nine. We just opened up three months ago. So everything's like brand spanking new. Curious Fox was like, I guess you did an event two months ago. And I was like, the first thing I was like, I am I just in theory, or do I need to go do something so and it was fantastic. I actually learned that night I had so many amazing conversations that I just really liked talking to people and connecting to people and I've created a life for myself where pretty much everybody in my life is dope, no drama and like witches and sages. And you know, it's amazing. But then I was like, Oh, I'm talking to new people, and I'm realizing it's still a small circle. So I've just been having a lot of fantastic conversations and, and learning about myself, you know, and, and so it's been interesting and cool. And I'm just trying to learn a lot more. And so I think three times in the last week, the word hierarchy and non hierarchy came up either in podcasts or friends of mine talking about it. And I'm like, Well, I don't know what that is just time to come find out.

Luciana

Hi, my name is Luciana. She. I'm from Brazil. I just moved to New York last week. Yeah. I'm used with circles, but not in English. And one of the reasons that I fall in love for New York for it was because I see a lot of opportunities just to decolonize myself. And this is one of the most challenging issues to talk about. So I'm glad to be here. And thank you Gabriela for letting me know that it existed. Thank you. Hello,

Gabriella

I'm Gabriella pronouns she and her, also Brazilian, but I've been living in the US for in New York for five years now. I was the person who brought Luciana to come. And I think I speak very highly of my experience living in New York because of the opportunities and the the new worldviews I gain and the layers I discovered that exist that I didn't even know existed. And one of the things that excites me about living here, and that I make a point of enjoying even though I have a quite demanding, like all consuming job is sex and relationship. So the world of kink parties, for example, the Facebook of fetish, that life like all those things, they feel like a sexual revolution to me, and I feel like I'm at the center of it. So it's very exciting. And I have been polyamorous already in the last few years, although new at it not knowing what I was doing. But I've been a new unicorn to a couple for six months. And we discussed hierarchy a lot, because on my day job, I'm well my job. I'm a lawyer, I'm a human rights lawyer. So to me, non monogamy and polyamory only makes sense if the pursuit is everyone's liberty, and everyone being respected. And so that has to be understood and has to be the goal for everyone in the relationship. So from the very beginning, when I entered this non monogamous relationship, I started having discussions about how much of a voice I would get and making up the rules. Like am I allowed as a unicorn to go on dates individually with the man and the woman? I always have to be with both people and creating spaces for that and challenging some of the rules they had. And so these are conversations I've had, I'm now not in that relationship. But it's yeah, it's fascinating to be in a group where people are thinking about these things. And it's normal. So yeah, thank you.

Kara

That was really interesting. My name is Kara, and she her. So my husband passed away six months ago. And I've been working with Fe recently, just trying to figure out like, what's my design? It's a new world.

Nick

I'm Nick Murphy. I had the conversation with my wife a few months ago, did not go well. So right now we're going through this trial period, to see if, if what I find luring, interesting and part of my identity is something that can attract her. So for me, it's it's an interesting fork in the road, where if, if we stay together, we'll have one sort of relationship. If, if we are no longer together, then maybe there's other choices I can make. So it's a very interesting topic for me to see how how things might go and what people's experiences are. One way or the other.

Thiago

My name is Thiago. Also Brazilian he MRV I've been married for about six years we've been together for about 12 Open up for about an one year now. Also did not go well in the beginning was not easy, but I felt like the more I studied, I read I went into online forums. And then finally I've met curious Fox all of that like helped me a lot like getting information and sharing experience and hearing people's stories helped me had a lot. And each I feel like it changed not only my relationship, but it's changed me as a person. Also, I'm also interested in generating coming to these events because of like the this idea of like building a community of people who go through the same struggles who have the same problems who share a similar experience here, what's working for people what's not working, I have also been specific interest in hierarchical various versus non hierarchical, hierarchical relationships. Because I feel like being married for a long time being together with my wife for so long and opening him up. Now, there's a kind of a almost like a natural hierarchy that develops, like we have so much intimacy, and when we bring someone into our life, we need to be very careful with like, respecting that this third, like person's like needs, and voice and all that. So I just want to try to be more aware of what are the challenges in that sense.

Richard

My name is Richard Anton Diaz and Effy and Jackie will have to catch me up on the lingo of he, she I'm not quite sure where that's about, but we'll talk about that later. I founded this organization called sexy spirits in 1999, which is still in New York City. And it's based basically on the premise that we are all at our essence, infinite beings, communicating and experiencing life as either a, a, a body with a male reproductive system or a female with a female reproductive system. So I'm going to be very curious to hear. And I've already been curious to hear how men and women are expressing themselves because I think that's the greatest game that we have being on this planet, born the way we are. My history with relationship I've had two decade long marriages, wonderful wives. And there's definitely an arrow key as far as I'm concerned, when, even when I've had a next relationship. I've noticed that when they have honored the relationships that came before me, that everything went smooth. When that honouring wasn't there, things seem to get in trouble. So I'm very curious to see how that is going to be navigated in the polyamorous community. I almost was just thinking, as we were talking that, you know, polyamory is almost like a monogamy stringed out and put all together in one timeframe, if you think about it, because I'm sure that is as many as monogamous we might say we are we've had more than one relationships with that person. So polyamory is kind of an interesting state of being where we get to experience many, many lifetimes, so to speak. So it's a very interesting topic. I'm very, very curious to hear this this topic and see how that all conforms to what I do.

Sloane

Hey, I'm Sloane, I've been coming to Curious Fox events for I feel like a couple of years, I was introduced to non monogamy a few years ago, I'd always been monogamous always in long term relationships that sort of got stale, eventually, and ended and a few years ago, I started dating someone who introduced me to this concept. He wasn't the right partner. For me, there was a lot of non consensual non monogamy going on. It was just historically, a cheater. But during the course of trying to get my head around this concept of non monogamy, to be able to give him what he wanted. I found Effy I found curious Fox I found other other places and really did a lot of research and read a lot and went to events and made friends, some of whom are here and talk to people about how their relationships work and how non monogamy work for them. And it really resonated with me, too, had known since I was very, very young, that I was bisexual and I never felt you know, being a woman who's I'm 52. You know, I came of age in the 70s and 80s. And there wasn't really a space to even use that word. You couldn't say to anyone, I'm bisexual, or I couldn't growing up in California in the 70s and 80s. I never told the soul really it's like you had to be one thing or the other. And if you like them both, you just have to choose the path of least resistance, the easier path and so I chose to always be with men and sort of like look at women longingly across the room and go like yes that I'm missing that. So, you know when when this partner introduced me to this world, it really resonated for me it was like, oh my god, I could there's a world in which I could possibly be my whole self. I could express my entire self and And, you know, it also resonated, because I don't only have one friend I want to see and hang out with and have dinner with, I have many friends and they don't have a hierarchy, they're all important to me. I love and care about them all. And I sort of am really, so for the last year plus, since that relationship ended, I've been, you know, exploring, being poly and dating multiple people and, you know, in a really ethical way, where they all know about each other. And at the moment, my relationship structure is, by default, non hierarchical, I mean, I'm basically solo poly, and I'm, I have a couple of partners who don't live in the same place. So by default, there is no hard hierarchy between them there, you know, it's like when I'm in this place, I get to see that one. And when I'm in this place, I get to see that one and, and so I don't think of either of them as more important to me than the other and their space. For more people, I just don't have a lot of time. I don't really, I feel like non hierarchical non monogamy really works for me, and I am my primary partner, that's really important to me right now. Like, I've really been spending a lot of time developing a relationship with myself and knowing myself and loving myself. And I feel like, you know, I have a primary partnership with myself. So I come first, like, the hierarchy is me, and then everyone else. So and I don't know if you know, I met someone who wanted to have a hierarchy, I was seeing somebody for a bit who had a primary partner they lived with. And when they started to have problems, like real problems with their polyamorous journey, I decided to step away from from dating the partner that I was dating, just because I didn't feel comfortable being in the midst of, you know, dating someone who was going was really not in a good place in their primary relationship. So there was a hierarchy there for them. And that I was not, you know, a primary partner, and I was fine with that. I didn't really care. But, you know, I felt like all of my partners are sort of on the same plane, when I'm with them. They're really important to me, and I care about them. And I'm interested to hear from them. And I'm interested to see them. But when I'm with the other person, that's where my focus is like, I don't. So I don't know what that means. But it could change. And I'm interested to hear more, because I know that that's pretty rare that most people feel like they're, you know, they want a primary partner, I think so anyway, that's me.

Jacqueline

So I think we should introduce ourselves in the same way, maybe a little bit of our and then I'll talk through some themes. And if you want to introduce yourself, you can't you don't have to eat this. So my name is Jackie, my entryway into curious Fox was actually as a client of FeS. My so I've been non monogamous my whole life. I've always known that I never had the language for it. Up until I was married before I have an eight year old with my ex husband. And we were together for 13 years. And every relationship including that one, I had broached the subject of non monogamy again, not having that language, but saying, what if you did other things, and like I did, and then we like told each other about it and, and they were like me? No. And I'm like, no, no, maybe I misunderstood. I didn't say the right way. I was like, but what if like you go out and do your thing, and then it's fine. And then you come back and you tell me and I'm fine. And they're like No, no, like, well, maybe I didn't see it the right way. And that just kept happening. And then so that was one of the reasons at some point towards the end of our marriage, that and lots of other reasons led to us deciding that we wanted to live in two different ways. I got remarried, I've been in relationship now for seven years with my wife. Similarly to some of the folks in the room. Not only did I always know, I was non monogamous, I've always known that I was attracted to multiple genders for a very long time, that didn't feel like an option for me. And so all the things kind of opened up in the same way at the same time. We've always been nominated chemists, that was a part of our very original conversation. So we've been together for about seven years open for about four, I introduced it into the relationship, and she was the one who actually kind of opened it. And then it did not feel like I thought it was gonna feel after you know, 30 plus years of saying, like, we can do this thing. And I was like, Wait, this is what it is. This is terrible. And it was really hard. And there were pivotal moments about specifically about hierarchy. I went to a Curious Fox event, and someone brought up with my wife and someone brought up the topic of relationship anarchy and non hierarchy. And on the drive home. My wife is like yes, it's amazing and I was horrified. cuz I was like, no, no, no, no, that's how we're doing. We're like, maybe we're connecting with other people go into a part like we're not doing that thing should ignore, we're going to do that thing. And we start to go to Fe to talk that through. If you listen to the podcast, I'm happy to share it again, at some point, the very infamous Christmas story around the topic of hierarchy. We had the top we had the conversation right before we were hosting all of our family for Christmas. She said she had started a relationship similarly started non non consensually. I think she had had a habit of having a cheating, as many of us have, and are trying to explore and navigate or curiosity for other people while trying to fit into the box. And even though we were in a different construct, those habits died hard. And so as a result, that relationship started off in that way, which led kind of bad feelings. And so when that relationship grew to a point where she said, I would really want this to be nonhierarchical night because I love her in the same way. I love you. I said Christmas was canceled, and said that that was it. We're not hosting family, right? You can't have non hierarchy and presence that just feels that feels real greedy. That feels greedy. And we had like an emergency FaceTime session with FV. And the diligent person, if we would come to sessions, and I would have notes prepared in advance. And one time, he was like, Well, did you talk about this, I said, we did, I'm going to break out the flip chart paper and I unfolded the flip chart paper for where we had. So there was always I really in the same way that you would have talked about really rooted myself in education around this and really tried to understand it here so that eventually I could understand it here. And almost a year to the day from that Facebook Christmas chime emergency call, I had my very first video meeting with my new collaborator around curious Fox, during the course of that year, we did a lot of personal work, I do a lot of personal work, we're in an amazing place, happy to talk to you all about that stuff at some point. And founded my own organization. And in the work of that came to fit to talk about the work she was doing. After that meeting, she called me and said you need to be involved in this work. And that was about eight months ago. And so I have been helping manifest this dream from as somebody who needed it, and who benefited from it, and now can help provide it and share with with other folks. And so I do have another partner now that we've been together for about eight months. And I was horrified at non monogamy until my new partner was like we should do not mean not non monogamy I was I was horrified about non hierarchy. And then my new partner was like, Well, I don't want there to be rules. And we should be and I was like, okay, and like suddenly, then it was fine. So I can talk to you more about that too. So I have a non hierarchical relationship with my wife in that I love her, I'd actually split my time. Because I share custody with with my daughter, I have a week on and off. So the week that I have my daughter and with my wife the week that I don't have my daughter and with my other partner, and but my partner and I, my girlfriend and I have a hierarchical relationship. So she wants to be the primary in that dynamic, even though she is equal and the other dynamic. And so that is also very complicated. And there's natural hierarchy that exists because I'm a parent. And because I cohabitate with somebody and we are married, so we can talk explore that a little bit. That's me.

Effy

Good story. I was like hearing your story.

Jacqueline

That's funny, because on the other end, she's like, that was funny.

Effy

Now I can say that. I remember hanging out and going well, okay. That's gonna be fun. Yeah, but you guys go through you guys did well, you're doing great. Um, so a little about myself. Besides my work, how I came to this is my own journey. So if you blue she her, I have a history of serial infidelity. So I cheated on pretty much all of my partners previously, including my husband, which, you know, ended up ending that, that that relationship, and it was I cheated in. It was in an interesting way. It was never when I wasn't happy. People always assume that cheating happens when you're happy looking for somewhere else. For me, it wasn't like that. I was actually I would cheat when I was most happy, most settled, felt comfortable. And it felt mostly in love. And in that sort of height of like, This is amazing. I would get this idea that I want to explore like, I just felt like the switch would go off. And I'm like, I want to know I want to explore. And I just now obviously retrospectively, I can make sense of it. But at the time it was it felt like I was driven, I was compelled to like, start exploring. And then it would you know, I would go and cheat and I would it never sat right with me because that's not what I wanted to do. Like I didn't want to lie. I didn't want to be a cheater. So I would at some point confess. And then when I confess there were tears and heart ache and you know it would end and then I would go and I'm not gonna do that again. But it was like rinse, repeat, rinse repeat over and over again. And at some point I was like this is not working. I am not good at relationships. I no longer want to be in a relationship at all. I don't want to hurt anyone anymore. Anyone Have myself anymore, kind of jumped ship and decided that I was not going to be in the relationship and, and poured myself into my career, which was great for my bank account. Not so great for my heart. So I spent a decade traveling the world with my previous career. So I was living in Asia and Africa. And it was a great opportunity in a good reasoning and good rationale to why I didn't have relationships. So when people were like, Oh, my God, you're not dating anyone you like you haven't dated anyone for a long time. I'm like, I'm traveling the world. Look at my life. It's amazing. But ultimately, I just couldn't reconcile how I could have a relationship where I didn't hurt people. My travels brought me to New York. And a bunch of things collided. And I almost literally stumbled into the non monogamous sex positive community. I was like bouncing around trying to like figure a bunch of things out mostly around my sexuality. So I was exploring kink, I was exploring these like non traditional sexual expressions. And as I was navigating that world, I, like stumbled into this community. And it was like a light bulb that went on. I was like, oh, it's not that I'm not good at relationships. I'm just not good at this one type of relationship. And look, here, a bunch of people, they're doing it differently. Can they seem pretty normal? At the time, that was my rationale, I was like, they seem normal. They, you know, they happy and they have multiple relationships. And, you know, I'm, you know, it's working like, what's up with that, and I'm a natural nerd. I like to dive into things, and not only dive into things and learn for myself, but then I have to like write manuals and write books and write worksheets for everybody else than anything. So I kind of as I delved into it, I'm trying to figure things out for myself, I realized there was nobody else like they weren't, there were only a handful of books, which were didn't quite resonate with me exactly. So I as I sort of figured things out for myself, I came up with this idea of this philosophy, that is relationship by design. And the idea is to design relationships in a way that you can thrive without necessarily adhering to the one size fits all subscription and the prescription that society gives us. And I was fortunate I, you know, found this community, which also allow me a period of time of trial and error and testing things. So what is it like to be a secondary partner? If, if I'm with somebody who's already in a relationship? Like, what would that what would that feel like? How would I handle jealousy? Where, you know, what would that look like for me? Or what would it be like for me to date somebody and then dating somebody else? What is it like being in a triad, you know, can really three people coexist and thrive? So I literally just sort of went into relationships, thinking, Oh, how's this work? For me? How's this work for me? And through that, I came up with this, like, did my design like, what does it look like when I'm thriving? Like when if he's thriving? What does it look like? What does it sound like? How do I feel? What does my environment look like? What do I do? And then can I design my relationships? With that as my North Star like, can I doesn't die my relationship so that they nurtured the state of thriving? And can that be mutual? Like, can we find a mutuality in that. And that's, that's how I ended up where I ended up my relationship. So currently, I live with one of my partners. My other partner and his wife live on the first floor, so we live in a townhouse together. So they live on the first floor, we live on the second floor, we have some friends living on the third floor. So we're kind of in our building. Our home is a clothing optional home, I'm very new revelation, we're getting a baby. So my boyfriend's wife is pregnant. So in January, we're gonna have BABY Yay. Um, so that's really exciting and new for us. And we've been doing that now for two years. My partner whom I live with, we've been together for two years. My boyfriend who lives downstairs, we've been together for five years. And we kind of live this, you know, co living situation, and it works for us. It is a hierarchical setup. And I'll talk a little bit more about that. And about how hierarchy you know, how it plays out. And it's not it's not as sort of scary and dictatorial as it sounds, I can sound. I've also been in non hierarchical relationship with Mike. In fact, my first relationship started hierarchical and shifted into a non hierarchical structure. And there was three of us. It was, it was beautiful. It really wasn't eventually when we kind of disbanded, we remain friends. And the reason why we disbanded was never the relationship structure. In fact, what made us last and persevere through some of the other struggles we had some of the personal struggles we had was that we We're in a in this flat triad. And that third opinion that that third, sometimes moderated that really helped help, that relationship helped us to thrive in that relationship. And I'll I'll delve into how that works versus how my relationship works today in a minute. So that's kind of how my journey looks like.

Jacqueline

So I think I'm gonna share out some themes that I heard from around the room. And then we can kind of dive into burning questions and kind of piece it away and explore. So I heard that there may be a need or desire from some maybe basics of open poly one to one. Some conversations potentially around how to fit into existing relationships. So recognizing the existing connection, and then how do we fit into that? I heard that there is then a desire as someone maybe who's going into a relationship to have voice and to create dynamics that feel liberating and rooted in growth. I heard people talking about learning how to have healthy existing relationships, being interested in trying new things and exploring, understanding maybe some natural places of hierarchy when there's cohabitation or co parenting, and then it was resonating kind of in the room around being here for education and personal growth and community. I get that right. Yes. Okay, good. Okay, great. So so let's start, I think we have some context to share. But before we do that, I want to see kind of burning question, right? Like something that like, and if and if that's not the case, we have so much that we want to share with you. But if there's something in the room that you feel like have heard everyone's story, and this question is now feeling like a distraction in my mind, and I want to, I want to voice it to the room. All right. So maybe we'll start with some context. And then Oh, yeah.

Effy

We'll definitely address non hierarchy as well. And I can also, there are groups and events in there specifically for people who are practicing non hierarchy and relationship anarchy, which I'm also going to mention, so that we can have distinctions. So there are there are smaller groups that are sort of embracing like non non hierarchy and relationship anarchy, and we can definitely, I can definitely point in the right direction. And I can totally see how isolating it may feel. And we'll talk about why and, and how, even though when people say, no, no hierarchy, or hierarchy, that it's doesn't, it doesn't always mean exclusion. And we'll talk a little bit about that. Yeah. So should I just do the one on one? Okay, let me just for those who are just opening out her new, um, let me just the overview of like non monogamy one on one, because they're also some language that people use interchangeably. So I'm just gonna give some distinctions and then we can take you from that. So if you think about monogamy, and non monogamy as these, like two umbrellas, terms, and monogamy we know, you're with one person at a time. And non monogamy is when you are when you are exploring, or you're being with multiple people. You all you're in a relationship. So under non monogamy, the various structures that that have named so some of them is people who are talking about open relationships, and they tend to be in an existing relationship. And there is a partnership or marriage and there, but they're open to dating other people and they're open to being with other people. That's kind of one side of it. And then you have all the way on the other side of this idea of polyamory, right. A lot of people interchangeably use this idea of poly and open relationships. I'm just going to make the distinction so that when we go into things like hierarchy and non hierarchy and relationship anarchy, we can have a bit of a map in our heads, right? polyamory is multiple loving romantic relationships at the same time, right? So that's the way I think about it as people that you're with that you're potentially invested in emotionally. Maybe you're future planning that you are as you are conducting your life. You are, you know, those people are a fact of the day they're factored into your life. And that's sort of polyamory. Now, statistically, polyamory is actually on the fringes actually. Rare, the true polyamory where people in multiple long term relationships. Most people who are exploring non monogamy tend to be on the open side, or at least that's where people start, right. There's this idea of swinging swingers people always asking about swingers swinging is an activity not really a relationship structure. So you can be polyamorous and swing, like fun thing to do, you can go to a swingers party and swing with one of your partners. Right? And there are people who are otherwise monogamous, right but they kind of explore being with other people in the very restricted sexual context, right? So though, sport fucking essentially. So otherwise, they might not be invested or interested in relationships, friendships, that kind of just like being a couple that goes out and has sex with other couples. And that's that's still under the non monogamy umbrella because you're essentially being other people, but But it's an activity non relationship structure. Does that make sense for everyone? Okay, so, um, let's talk about hierarchy non hierarchy within that construct. So, in polyamory, when you have a multiple relationship, you have options of how they can look like and hierarchical polyamorous relationship where you prioritize certain relationships over others. So you can be married and be polyamorous. So you could primary partner could be your wife, you could be your wife, or you can have a partner that you live with and their primary partner and then your other partners are secondary, or tertiary, depending on what you what your what your setup is. Now, personally, in my coaching practice, I don't like that language, because it, it has a it doesn't address, I think what's cool about hierarchy, which is neat, it kind of comes up with ranking system, and immediately people are opposed to it, like who wants to be in second and, you know, in line, right, it's not doesn't feel good. I don't think that when hierarchies applied in a healthy way to support the relationships, I don't think it's about ranking people. It's about priority prioritizing needs, right. And there's nothing wrong with that. And we'll talk about that a little bit. So the language that I use in my practice is core relationships and auxiliary relationships, right. So your core relationship would be your primary partner, your primary relationship, and then your other relationships will be auxiliary relationships. And the other reason why I like using that language is that you're not talking about people, you're not saying this is my primary person, this is my secondary person, what you're saying is this relationship is my core relationship. And this relationship is an auxiliary relationship, that also takes it away from this personal, like ranking people, which is what people often refer to, which is what people find difficult to sort of digest, right? In a non hierarchical situation, there is no prioritization. And the idea is that none of your relationships affect one another. And none of the relationships are prioritized over the other. There's this like flat system, a round table situation. Now, again, just polyamory itself is rare, non hierarchical, polyamory is within that rare, right? And then sort of the very, very fringes is this idea of relationship anarchy. Right? Has anybody heard of relationship anarchy? You guys have? Yeah, yeah. So this idea of relationship anarchy, relationship, anarchy is like when people who practice relationship anarchy, do not prioritize any relationship, even friendships, over sexual relationships. So in a hierarchical in a hierarchical polyamorous relationship, you are prioritizing your romantic relationships, and then you're putting them in a in a hierarchy of needs. So these are my core relationships. These are my auxiliary relationships in a non hierarchical situation. polyamory you're saying, These are my romantic relationships, and they come as a priority to me, but they don't affect one another. And then in a relationship, Annika, you're saying, everybody that I know, and I love our same, and I'm not making a distinction between sexual ones, platonic ones, familial ones that my relationship, all the relationships are, are on one level, and they don't affect one another? Does anybody want to add anything to relationship anarchy?

Speaker 1

Yeah, what does that look like?

Effy

What does so what does regime anarchy look like?

Jacqueline

We did a podcast.

Effy

It's actually, yeah, it's probably my most popular one. So it's when people really experience people in the moment and for who they are. So they reject even this idea of like calling people, like my partner, or my boyfriend, or my lover, you know, we even had the conversation about like, what do you call people, right? And they were like, friends, you know, or their name, write their name. And the idea is that you're just being in the moment with the person with what's available. And you're not sort of taking it any further than that. And you making space for everyone in whatever is available in that relationship.

Jacqueline

And it also means the most level of autonomy. So where right now, if you have a partnership where you may need to check in you meet someone tonight, you want to go and spend the night you may need to call somebody and say, Hey, are you comfortable with this? How do you feel about this? In relationship anarchy, there's not necessarily that level of permission. And it doesn't mean that they don't take everyone's feelings into consideration. So everyone who they love, they figure out what those anaemic looks like. But there's less of an expectation that there's potentially checking in one of the panelists described it almost as having a swimming pool. And where some people have like and swimming hours are saying, you know, synchronized swimming is from this time to this time you bring your children at this time, close optional, this time, relationship anarchy is there's one pool, if you want to swim in the shallow side that's over there. If you want to swim in the deep side, that there are no constructs and rules around timing of things. It all just exists and everyone in it is figuring that out along the way without those kinds of guidelines.

Effy

I do recommend that you listen to the podcast on it. It was we had we had a bunch of people who Talking about their experiences and answered a lot of those questions. And again, it's still on the it's on the like, you're going on the rare fringer side of things, right? Yeah.

Jacqueline

So you wanted to talk about, um, does it mean that one person's needs are more important? Okay,

Effy

okay, hierarchical relationships. There are a couple of ways of going about this, right? In my practice, when I'm working with people, the hierarchy. As I said, the important thing is not to make it personal and not about the ranking the people in order of who you love and who you care for, and who you prioritize, but really looking at needs, and making sure that everyone's needs are being met. Right? If you're in a hierarchical relationship, sometimes it's, and by the way, it is more common. Because we do have biologically we do have a sense for pair bonding, right? It is it is in our biology to pair bond. So the idea that that sort of pair bonding happens, a couple of happen, and then they sort of open up is kind of most natural leap path of least resistance, right. And that's why this tends to be more common. The non hierarchy stuff, what I find is that people who practice non non hierarchy, there's some of them that think about it as, like a flat structure, which is like, everybody sits around the table, you have an open conversation, decision made decisions made altogether. And then you kind of act out and you execute whatever you've, you've decided as a group, that's one way of doing it. Another way of doing is sort of almost on the anarchy side, where it's full autonomy, right? So people are like, you're not checking in with everyone, you're not prioritizing my calling home to this person or that person, you're not checking in with one person and not the other. No permission, asking no veto power, very autonomous people. So still connected to one another. So there's like two, there's a couple of ways of doing that.

Jacqueline

So one thing, I think that's important, so for the folks in the room who are interested in continuing to learn about this stuff, if you study nonviolent communication, that would be a recommendation, we did a workshop on that, and we live streamed it, so the video is available, so you can watch it. But in nonviolent communication, it talks about violent communication comes from each of us trying to pit ourselves against each other, because it is rooted in our strategy to meet our needs. And that distinction between strategy and needs is a big core of what you're talking about in terms of the hierarchy. Our needs are a need for connection, a need to be seen, a need to be validated a need a need for shared expectations. Our strategies around that are you can't see anybody else, or Tuesday nights or just for me, we're not in the bed, or it's all the ways you are trying to protect yourself, you're creating guidelines to protect yourself in order to meet your needs. It takes a lot of work, to let go of the strategy and just talk about the need and say I need connection. And let's talk about together how we develop a strategy so that I can feel connected. But that's the distinction. It's understanding in all your partnerships, what are all the needs that are on the table? And how potentially Are we having a conversation where people's needs are getting met, as opposed to imposing strategy around how someone's needs are going to get met?

Effy

Right, exactly. And I think a lot of the people, a lot of people who are sort of embarking on this and thinking about hierarchy. It is it is often especially at the beginning. And people who are like I'm imposing strict hierarchy, I'm often at the base of it is there's an insecurity, like Jack said they're trying to meet a need or trying they're either trying to meet a need or prevent something, right. So so the fear base, they don't want, they don't want to be left behind. They don't be left out. They don't want to be abandoned. Like things like fear of abandonment is a human feeling. We all have a fear of abandonment. It's actually built into us for evolutionary reasons. So because of safety in numbers, as we were evolving, we knew we know that if we weren't belong to a tribe, that chances are chances of survival was very low, we'd probably get eaten by a saber toothed Tiger Tiger while you were sleeping because there was no no one to keep watch. Right? So we have a very primal instinct to belong and to seek safety in numbers. And the flip side of that is the fear of losing and fear of abandonment. Right. So that's like primal built in now, that primal filling has already built in plus whatever goes wrong in our childhoods, and it all does because to be human is to be flawed. So we are our parents are flawed is just how we humans are made. That combined then that fear is it for some people is feels more acute, right? For some people. It's more of an acute feeling. It gets triggered easily. And it they're kind of looking out for it and looking out for ways that they may be abandoned. Right So when you put all that together, there is a fear. And there's a need to hold on to things to control things to, to make sure that that abandonment is not going to happen. So how that then shows up is in this higher in this idea of hierarchy, this trying to control the situation to say, I'm the most important. And here are all the ways that I can prove to myself or my partner can prove to me that I am the most important, I'm not going to be left behind. That's often what's at the base of this, like people who are imposing very, very strict hierarchy.

Jacqueline

And also, I think it's point to say that none of this, as we're talking about hierarchy, it's not a hierarchy and polyamory that you should get to a place where everyone is relationship anarchy, and everyone is prioritizing themselves. And if you're in a relationship, where be it triggered from fear be triggered from preference, there's a set of guidelines between you and your partners, and that works for everybody and everyone is thriving, then do that thing. It's not about pushing yourself to be like, well, we could be at a place where then you know, all their needs being better. We sit around every Sunday and have brunch and discuss all the need, if that's not going to work for then don't do that. But it's more if you are with a misaligned potentially. And whereas I was with my wife at that time, and she felt like her feelings for for this other person were essentially that she would be committed and married to this woman as well. Had she the luxury to do that, and wanted to validate the relationship in that way. And it was my fear that was stopping that it was me saying no, no, I need to, I need everyone to know that I'm the one and she needs to know that I'm the one like at the end of the day, and and I was rooted in the fear. So the self work that I did was around me being more comfortable in myself and in the relationship so that I could thrive in that relationship with my wife, had she been fine with it, we may never have gone on that journey. And been in that place because we were aligned in what we wanted. So I wanted to name that to say, for the high achievers in the room, like don't worry, you don't need to like achieve each status of like open, find the place that works for you goes and then stay there if it works. And then if it's mismatched, and you can continue to work on it.

Effy

Absolutely. And I think it's in that it's in finding what you're thriving and going back to that. So if you finding that you're imposing what we're going back saying posing hierarchy, because of a fear, right? address that and not address it, so that you can move into being a non hierarchical situation, but address it so that you're not led by fear, right? There are definitely healthy and valid reasons why people choose to be in a hierarchical relationship. There's nothing wrong with the hierarchy relationship. As long as coming from a healthy desire to this is what we're creating in the world. This is what we agree. And this is what we want to create in the world. And this is the the relationship design that we want to have and then invite other people into it. And kind of have these agreements in place. Right? Not from fear, but from a desire to create. Right, does that. Does that distinction make sense?

Unknown Speaker

Um, so it's interesting, the comment that you had earlier, I was thinking about that because I am married and I have a boyfriend who's not married. And he's single. Well, no, he's not single. He's with me, but he's not married. But it's definitely been hard for me actually, it's been hard for me because I think I for a while actually did forget about myself a little. So you know, I really didn't want him to feel that he wasn't as important to me as say, like my husband. And I still even trying to figure that out now. So I think in the beginning, I really wanted to be more open. I studied relationship anarchy, I kind of you know, I tried to figure out what that was, and really wanted him to be free to do whatever he wanted, we call ourselves open. But then, you know, he started like, when I didn't know he was confident and he's like starting to meet people and like at a new job and like really started to meet people and like started to like hook up with people like right away. And I freaked out and and I was trying to be so okay with everything and like just while I'm married I gotta let him do that. And I think even felt that a little even said, it was like a probably about like six or seven months of like, torture until we could finally come to a better place where we were reconnecting again, we lost connection for a long time. And then, you know, he kind of even admitted, well, yeah, maybe I felt like I needed to do something because I wasn't with somebody like, like, married and he felt like he just needed to go out and do that. And that was really hard. And I don't think he even really thought like what his structure really needed to be with me with other people. And then and then that was like, the whole thing was this huge reality check for me. I'm learning to love myself and like I'm You're standing jealousy and like, like what that was I, I did tons of like workbooks. I just it was awful. It was like, I lost like 15 pounds, it was the most stressful time of my life actually, it it felt really bad because like, this is my boyfriend and my husband's like, what is happening and like, in him and I didn't like really talk to too much about the major problems I was having with him. Because at that, I mean, we've been talking about this for a couple years and practicing this for years. But it even for him was still hard to see me being in pain over another guy, like another person. And then, and then I didn't want to hurt him. So I didn't talk to him about it. Like, I am not present in my life for a long time. And it was really hard. And I travel a lot for work. So I was really away and by myself a lot. And my boyfriend's off with this person and then dealing with that drama. And then then there's like another person, and then there's like another person and it's like, holy shit. And then I just also had to learn to be patient and love myself and just be calm, and I couldn't fix everything right away. And maybe I just needed to pause and wait and just let things work at work itself out. And then I didn't discipline process, but we were starting to connect again. But now that's making me really think like, what, how we really define our relationship. And I just felt like it wasn't fair for me to take like, I'm your girlfriend, and I'm a priority. Like, because I think I asked him when he first hooked up with someone first time or something. And it was just I was like, Well, can I be your primary girlfriend? And he actually was like, No, you can't like because you're married? I don't know. It was weird. And I don't think he knew what he was talking about either.

Unknown Speaker

But now it's it now I think that we're we're back in a better place. And we can kind of talk about it. I'm not so afraid. I think I was afraid of my needs. Because if I express my need, what if they don't care about my needs? That means they don't care about me? Am I worth it? So worth self worth was a huge study. And it's like, well, like them like whatever, if he doesn't care about me that much. If I can't express my need, and say that I need to be important somehow and create, maybe we do need to create some kind of hierarchy, then well, then he doesn't really matter. Because I should matter the most. So if this this is interesting, so I'm trying to fit we're trying to figure out like how we are, I guess it's polyamorous, I don't know, like we have this unit, we actually have had this relationship check in with this four of us, which was like a year ago prior to him having relationships. And it was interesting test to get to this point, it was like really kind of cool, but I was controlling a lot of it. And then then I just lost complete control.

Jacqueline

Let me just say thank you for sharing the story. Honestly, number one, it resonates with me. But I think even if you're not in that particular situation, just the feeling of D prioritizing your needs to meet the needs of now the growing people that you are caring about or engaged with, I think is real. And so we should talk more after but yes, yeah.

Unknown Speaker

Nonviolent Communication talk here. And that was I was like in the midst of like,

Effy

Can I can I? Can I ask you a question? I wanna ask a quick question. Because you said, um, I want to make a couple of friends. And I asked you a question, because I just want to sort of unpack some of this, when you said you want you maybe you want is some sort of hierarchy, right? Because you just said, you know, maybe we need some sort of hierarchy. I'm curious to what you think it looks like when you say that when you imagine that when you're like, I think I need some sort of hierarchy. Like what do you imagine it looks like?

Unknown Speaker

A Yeah, you're just using the word hierarchy. But yeah, like I should, with my relationship with my husband, we have prioritizing our time and we're, we were really good at co parenting. So that's like kind of a hierarchy there and then with my boyfriend, I mean, I need time. I need like dedicated time and that's very, very important and quality time but then also friend time but then

Unknown Speaker

yeah, I mean, I kind of think like he hasn't developed relationships that seem to be interested in having a relationship with him. Like long term like he's there kind of like A couple like quick things or something, and then the people realize they want to be monogamous with somebody else. So I don't know. Yeah.

Effy

So this time piece is really interesting. And I'm, you know, I'm not surprised that I'm hearing this from me because it's something that comes up a lot is no, even with this idea of hierarchy, right? It's, there really isn't an hierarchy in terms of feelings, right? If you think about it, we love is love. It's a feeling like, I'm British, or I say fancy, like a fancy somebody fancy somebody, it's not like you fancy somebody more than somebody else. So you don't like it feelings don't necessarily come in that kind of, I love this person more than the other person. Right? It's, it's, it's, um, it's a language issue that we, we say, I love this more than this. And in English, in most modern languages, we only have one word love. And we love ice cream. We love our partners, we love our parents, and some of us love God, all with this one word, right? And if you look at the ancient languages, like Latin and Greek, they actually have multiple words for love, right? Because they can distinguish the connection in a different way. So now we just use love. So you love your partner? Icecream. Right. And you're like, Well, no, I obviously love my partner more than ice cream. What depends on the day, but you know. So when we, when we think about it in that way, then we like, Well, how do I then how am I then more valuable than ice cream? Right? And where am I then more valuable than this other person? How am I valued? How is my value showed so often, especially with, with non monogamy and polyamory? It ends up being about time, right? Because what we ended up doing is that the one measurable and the most valuable thing that we have is time, right? It's the only thing that is you can't get back. So what we ended up doing is that we map this idea of love onto this idea of time, right? And you're then going well, this person loves me, you know, this person gets more time, and this person gets less time. And then we end up using time as a way to sort of use as a way to hire set up hierarchies. Right? And it's, it's not in the feeling, but it's in the execution is where the hierarchical dynamics show up. Does that? Does that make sense? So I think when you aren't, so I think when you're thinking about hierarchy, it's important to separate feelings, right? Like you, the chances are, you do love all your partners like there's, that's why you're with them, there's affection, there's a there's connection, there's a calling, right, and the chances are, they're kind of similar feelings, same feelings, it's the way they manifest in the way that executed is where the differences are. And then it becomes just about practicality, right? And if you can separate those in your head, then it's doesn't become so much about your value, and how much you're loved and how much you valued. But really just the practical execution around life and life choices. Does that does that resonate?

Unknown Speaker

I'm going to disagree with you on things. Okay. First of all, I think the kind of the elephant in the room that we're not talking about, we talk a lot about love. But I think the stronger power of how we connect here is sex. I think the sexual drive is far greater than our concept of love. And I think you present a great question. You know, I, I was hurt when he did this. And why do I feel he should account to me first? Well, because you had sex with him. And I believe that when you have sexual union with somebody, there's a power that goes beyond your logic, it goes beyond your ability to speak intellectually about how you feel that person, there's something in the exchange of that sexual energy that immediately bonds you to that person. And that bond becomes timeframes. Not in terms of how much time you spend, but in terms of chronological, the Congress chronological time in which that happened. So when that bond is there, and it's already established, all right, and then the next day somebody comes into your life, and says, Hey, I want in, well, he's not coming in to test you, he's coming to a bond that you've already established with someone. And that bond has to be acknowledged, if it's not acknowledged, if it's ignored. And if it's ignored by either person, that will, that will not that will not have a good success rate. Because somebody's being left out. So it's not about so much abandonment, it's about exclusion and inclusion. If we're not including all the energies and partners that are making up that person as she is at that moment. We're excluding someone, and now you're in a relationship or somebody had to be replaced. Somebody had to be excluded. And I think relationship doesn't now out, somebody has to pay the price for that. And that price has to be paid in a relationship that now carries guilt. Oh, well, you and I are together, but he's left out or she's left out. And I kind of feel bad about it. But I still want this with you. And I'm gonna stick to my ideals about what happened. It's not acknowledging the actual connections there. The other thing I'd like to, you know, you said you were a serial cheater. It doesn't sound to me like you're a serial cheater. It sounds to me like you are a serial non communicator of what you want it to do before doing it. Okay, absolutely. So that's, that's, that's, to me a lot different. It's a communication of it's an issue of communication and not necessarily of infidelity. You know. So if we look at that, in terms of what communication has to happen, it really does come down to communication. And I'll just say one last thing. One of the first people that we interviewed, way back in 19, almost 99. Nine was Deborah antpool. She created the book, Love without limits, and I think she's the one who actually coined polyamory. I mean existed in it's a combination of a Greek and Latin derivative, but she's the one that made it popular. And just just to put all your mind at ease, you know, when when she gave her lecture and gave her talk, we went out to lunch, and I said, Oh, wow, this is great. You've got this whole thing worked out. And she was a truth, I haven't got a clue. So that's a woman who's expert at this who's written two books. And to this day, um, she's not alive anymore. But that's the subject that we're dealing with. But I think we can get really just in last No, no to this that. I think if we take into account the bond that's created through because we haven't, you know, I haven't heard sex once that we said, you know, we've talked about the I have a loving relationship. But we haven't really said the truth of it. I've been intimate, I've fuck this person, I've gotten into real hot sex with them. And there's a bond that's been created, and that just doesn't turn off. It's there. It's in my loins. Now, it's in my whole energy pattern. And if I'm going to meet somebody, I've got to carry that to that person. So in that sense, there's got to be a acknowledgement. We don't have to call it heirarchy. But there's got to be an acknowledgement of those that came before you. And if we don't, we are always going to deal with somebody having been included or excluded in that process.

Effy

I yeah, I mean, I think what you're saying really resonates with me, the only thing that I would add is within the polyamorous community. You know, the what you'll hear a lot of people say that it's not just about sex, or it's not all about sex. Right? And I think what I was surprised when I sort of met the community and did my research and got to know people is that how much asexuality is prevalent within the polyamorous communities, people who don't have a sexual who don't have sexual urges. And the reason why they find a home within polyamorous structures is because they can be in relationships where the sexual urges can be with some people, somebody else and they could still be a bond and a connection that isn't sexual and still a solid relationship. So I agree with everything that you're saying that sexuality being having sex with somebody is a bond that it needs to be honored, just adding also within polyamory, there's a lot of space for relationships without necessarily sexual connection. Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker

And if I could just say one thing about that, and that is that we live in modern times, where we aren't tribal, we do not live, we live in nuclear situations where we bring our partners home, we live in our own home, we meet other people on the second floor, third floor, but we don't have a tribe, where we have that connection where sexuality is not the core, it's it's union, and, and everybody's supporting one another survival needs other parents taking care of other children. Love happening, you know, that being that? So I think I think that, that when we talk about that asexuality, I think it's a, it's a, it's a reaction to the missing tribe that we've lost. We don't have it in our culture. And I think a lot of this interesting conversation comes about because we're trying to figure out, how do we have that tribe back, but under a culture where, you know, tribes aren't supported, you know, and I think the conversation is great. But I think if we, if we also look at to, you know, if we look at this as also a cultural evolution, I don't think ever in our time, have we ever been able to talk about orgasm and sexuality in this context? 10 years ago, we couldn't do that. So the culture is evolving, and we're evolving with it. But there are also the aspects of sexuality that brought each one of us here every one of us came through a our mothers, and there was a mother and father that had sex. So there's a certain era key right away for that child, there's a certain era key that's going to take place. Even even when that child has a first second or third sibling. There's, there's a first son number one, daughter, number two, daughter, number three, there's a certain order of heirarchy that needs to be honored that of course, the Chinese communities and the Asian communities have known for for centuries, and they honor it. And because of that they have a certain harmonious order of how they're how they support one another in that family structure.

Jacqueline

Can I respectfully push back on your pushback? So I think from my personal experience, I'm going to speak as opposed to kind of poly preaching all speeches for rooted in my own experience. The relationship with my wife and her partner is nonsexual, so they have a romantic connection. They know it wasn't a sexual relationship at the time. And those feelings were still strong enough that they it felt like validating some sort of commitment. And I've had sexual experiences, it didn't feel like it ranked to the point of prioritizing people outside of our experience in that moment. What did resonate with me about what you said, though, I think is the aspect of feeling seen. I think that when I felt like I was afraid of non hierarchy, it felt like the connection or communication or rules or life that we have created would not be seen or validated by anybody else, that I want it to be acknowledged as having had precedent that we have made, that I was, you are who you are, in part because of me, that us in partnership have created who we are up into this moment. And they are the beneficiary of me, and thus must acknowledge me, right, like, like, you better have a good really, I would like to think you know, at the end of the day, you're welcome for this person that you're seeing who I've helped, you know, help them grow. And so I think that part resonated with me around that there's sometimes these established connections and the fear around that is like you're not are you telling them about me? Are we going to or we're the meat? Do they know who I am? Do they know that you wore that shirt? Because I picked it? Like, do they know do they know about who I am? And I think that would that fear? So that part resonate? I think that that I have to wrap my mind around that other stuff. But that

Unknown Speaker

was all really interesting. All right, I'm going to talk about sex. So I'm having amazing sex right now with someone like incredible off the chart sec. And I think one of the things that we're maybe talking about here is when that happens, you have this expectation that they're gonna care about what else you're doing. You just said it, basically. So when you meet someone, when you have this incredible connection with someone, and you have this amazing sex, and they want to see you again, it's not a one off, it's not a you know, a one night stand like, you want to continue this connection. And they say to you, you know, they don't they're not like, When can I see you again, we need to make a plan for the next time I'm going to see you and they say things like, I don't care who else you're seeing, I don't care what else you're doing. Oh, you don't have to worry about telling me about the girl that you're seeing and the sex you're having with her like, oh, no, you can tell me anything, as long as you're happy, and you're thriving, and you're enjoying yourself. On site. Like when you meet this person who and I think you're experiencing this right now, who is an alien, like anyone you've ever met, right? You've had this incredible connection with this person, you're having great sex, you're clearly connected and connecting on many levels intellectually, right? And your time together is incredible. And they don't want you to account for when they're going to see you again, what you're going to be doing, who you're going to be seeing, and they don't experience any jealousy. You think something's wrong here. And it's just that they're this really rare person who has been through whatever they've been through in their life and done all these things that didn't work for them, and had all this possessiveness in some kind of monogamous relationship that didn't work for them. And they've arrived at a place where they're like, I need to do my thing and be who I am. And you need to do your thing and be who you are. And I love hanging with you. But I don't have expectations of you. You've met an alien like that. And so have I. And it's like, the initial reaction is like, oh, fuck, I'm not important to this person. They don't care when they're going to see me again. They're not saying net. So next Sunday, or am I seeing you next Sunday. But another possibility is this person is really into you and wants you to be happy and they want to be happy too. And they don't want to impose any rules on you. And they are going to show up and be really present when they're with you. But they don't want you to impose any rules on them either that might push them away and make them not want to be with you. So, I've met an alien like that. And it sounds like you have to. And it's just so weird. We're so not used to it, that we can't go, how fuckin lucky am I that I met this person who doesn't want to do this whole rule thing with me and impose on me and I get to go live my life. And when we come together, it's electric and amazing. But we don't always each other accountability I'm going to be with so and so on this night, and I'm gonna see you that. And it's just, it's so unusual that we don't know how to deal instead of just going wow, like, instead of experiencing gratitude, the initial knee jerk first reaction is, I'm not important to this person. And I think maybe that's not true.

Unknown Speaker

I wasn't gonna say that I'm kind of like that alien, where I just, if I'm with a woman, I don't like I don't care because not necessarily don't care. But it doesn't matter, because we're just having fun and doing our thing. But as far I think when when, when it's concerned with hierarchy, I think what happens is, I can speak for myself that if I meet a woman, and we have sex, maybe one or two times when you hang out, it's like, okay, we're just chilling, we're hanging out, and it's whatever. But if I start to see you, or we keep seeing each other, you know, for like a year, maybe you're gonna have then becomes like, you know, this hierarchy thing in my mind where let's say you meet someone new. And then I want to hang out with you one day, and it's like, oh, but I knew you longer. So we actually get priority, you know what I'm saying? So I'm wondering, like, what does that mean, in the context of when we're talking about hierarchy? And also, I have one other question, is that, is there a, is there a thing where it's like, you're kind of forced to be in a hierarchical situation. So for example, you have kids, and you have a husband? So it's like, well, I got to spend more time with my husband for certain situations. And then how does that affect your boyfriend? Because he's probably saying, like, Well, alright, well, then I guess, you know, I'm not important. I gotta go do my thing. You know, I'm saying, and so, you know, it's wondering.

Effy

I mean, Jackie, you have a daughter, right. And I think we talked about this, just before we did the we started as there are some natural hierarchies that are built in, you know, for example, if you co living with somebody cohabiting with somebody, there's some natural hierarchy in terms of, you know, bills comes before dates, probably, you know, right. Or if you have a kid, probably the kid comes before boyfriends, or girlfriends, or partners,

Jacqueline

and even marriage, that's a conflict right now that my girlfriend and I are having that I am married. And we love each other in the type of way where we would be committed and married, but I am married already. And so And we've talked about having commitments and doing a ceremony at the end of the day, that title, that certificate is a barrier saying, but I can't have that thing that you have. So it will never be even, it will never be the same. And so even just those natural, kind of legal. And we will have Diane Adams, by the way, in October, who is a lawyer who does a lot of work around this, who will talk about all the ways in which we can navigate the legal system to create any kind of relationship structure, hopefully, that we can. But that in itself is a barrier.

Effy

Yeah, sure. And I think it's also, like we talked about the time attrition, right, you're saying, You've been with somebody, you've sort of you made a bunch with that you've also made a bunch of assumptions, right? You You've settled into the relationship as it is, you've made it, you're now making a bunch of assumptions that that person is available to you three days a week, you're on your usual days, whatever. And then, and I think sometimes, what we need to do is what I call clearing cache, right? That's that as the relationship developed, you get into a groove and you know, you're making some assumptions of how available this person is. And it's, you know, unless you're checking in with the person, it's essentially in your head.

Unknown Speaker

Now, what if it actually is a thing like we like we meet every Tuesday, or Thursday or whatever, and then it's like, you meet someone new and then you're like, Oh, can I see him on Tuesday? I'm like, No, we release each other Tuesday enemy so that's what I mean. Like we've we've had an established thing. So isn't that a hierarchy within itself? Because we've established that so then when so then it's like, if you meet someone new, and then you're putting it's like you're putting them above me because we've already established this and then so it's then I'm like, Okay, we got to break up now.

Effy

I was gonna say yeah, so

Unknown Speaker

not but that but then I would like that because I'm like, this is like because the renegotiation to me means that you're putting the person above me is everything that's how I that's how I look at it.

Effy

She do you in your in your sort of ideal situation that these things have locked down and they're never they're never

Hasheem

Yeah, it's like that so we die.

Jacqueline

Every Tuesday.

Effy

Yeah, that's like somebody somebody recently described somebody who's very, very new and dabbling into this describe polyamory as a serial Multiple monogamy which I thought was a really they were just coming out of like a lifelong monogamous relationship and they're just moving into this I'm finding out about this for the first time. And their initial response, their initial comment was like, oh, polyamory is just multiple monogamy, which is kind of how you're dealing with it. You know, that's that's what it reminds me of that it's like each relationships are kind of monogamous, but they're like, on tracks next to one another.

Jacqueline

What I hear though is the through line between both of these comments is what we are seeing as markers for being important. So Jealousy is a marker that I am important, staying remaining committed to something that we agreed upon is a marker for why I'm important. I am married to the alien. So I, you know, we've had many conversations where I was like, your partner can't your girlfriend can't even go in the bedroom, she's like, you can have sex on the bed, just change the sheets. And I'm like, that's crazy, right? Like you let me do and I'll push, I'll be like, I'm gonna hang out on Monday and Tuesday, she's like, have fun and Wednesday and Thursday enjoy. And Friday and Saturday, she's like, bring leftovers. And I'm like, what's gonna write like, you keep like being like, Where's the thing that's gonna, because we have been conditioned to believe, right? That you shouldn't be mad, and you should care. And you should prioritize, and you should. And it is generations upon generations of conditioning. So you're not going to get it right away, one book or podcast will not do it. Right. And so it is deciding whether or not we have the resilience to keep pushing back on that over and over and say that's not the thing. And for a long time, it will feel real crappy that they chose that they decided to hang out on a Tuesday or they they're not being jealous. I personally experienced that all the time. So I want to say it from a place of experience that it feels like you should care, and why it's amazing. I'm like, I want to get to that

Speaker 2

place of mine that I found someone who I don't have to like tiptoe around, I had sex with someone else. He's like, you know, like, my attitude around, this has shifted so much that I'm like, oh, sorry.

Unknown Speaker

You know, like, how lucky am I that I met the aliens? You know, it's gonna bubble up. What? We have nothing on the calendar, do you want to see me again, that stuff is gonna bubble up. Because yes, it's a marker of I'm important. But the reality is, the connection that we experience when we're together, trumps all that, you know, like the quality of the time we spend together, trumps all that and like, I actually feel like, I'm the, you know, the lucky winner, and that I met the alien. And that means that I actually don't have to carry around shame and guilt about anything I do. Because as long as I'm a good human being to him while I'm with him, and I don't say I'm gonna do something like show up and then not show up, you know, or like, or just behave badly. Like, it's all good. So I actually don't I'm not like, at first I was like, Huh, you know, because it's just so unexpected, you think you have to tiptoe and sort of not, you know, tell half truths and sort of test the water before you share too much. And then it turns out, this person totally is not going to be fazed by anything. And it's all good. It's like, No, I feel really.

Jacqueline

And I think part of the anecdote to the conditioning is the strategy that Effy is shared with me and shares around, what's the story that's in your head. And so when I confront that moment of like, oh, and I think we walk around with a story, and we're acting and strategizing around the story, as opposed to just naming so the story in my head is that you don't care that I can have sex on our bed, that I can hang out any night, and that you just don't care. And when I eventually had the conversation, the story was clarified. I do care, and it makes me uncomfortable. But we've lived our entire lives, trying to accommodate to other people, I will not do that to you. And once I was able to have that conversation and understand that was the intention, it still feels weird to me, but naming the story and say, I don't feel valuable because you don't seem to care. And the response being I do care, and I'm working hard every day to create a space where you can do anything you want without me having to be accountable to me, it changed it but it took the courage of naming it, of feeling vulnerable and saying it

Effy

and at the core of it is self worth and self value. And I think it's even harder for women, they have another degree of hardship around that because we have been conditioned that our value comes from our interaction with men, right? Because historically, you know, we didn't have status or or our own, you know, until very recently, our own finances and status unless you were attached to a man. So we still have even though 2016 You know, third wave now fourth wave of feminism. It's still in our, in our culture in our in our psyche, that that external validation is where we measure our value. And I think that's, it all boils down to that. It's like, oh, we're looking for behavior. We're looking for strategies, we're looking for markers that goes, Oh, yes, I'm valued. Yes, I'm loved. Right. And I think a lot of the work that you've done is about you were saying about, like, that's where that's where it gets resolved res you, you resolve all that, that turmoil, my figuring out the self worth stuff, that you're not then looking at this behavior and constantly checking in with yourself, Does that mean I'm loved? Does that mean, I'm valued, does that mean I'm cared rather than, like, I am cared, I am valued. And this is just what's available in this relationship that has nothing to do with my self worth, I don't need to be prioritized in this very specific way that that I've like, designed in my head, where I get like phone calls to like twice as you know, twice a week, and then text messages every night, like these things that so that I can feel hold, I can feel worthy, is not about hierarchy. It's about self worth, right? It's about trying to, it's trying to ease the pain. And I think we keep designing around with external stuff to ease the pain. It's not going to be healthy structure. We kind of we had kind of had to figure out a way to ease the pain, and then design the relationship in terms of creation, like what are we trying to create in the world, not we're trying to prevent

Unknown Speaker

topics about open relationships, sex and whatnot, I just want to throw this out there like my own experience, or for those that are like new to the open relationship scene, I would love for others to back me up if they got this too. But one of the best things that I love about it is not actually sleeping around. But rather when I go back to my wife, and we're in bed calling and just gossip about the crazy different mannerisms that other people have, or what we learn to bring over into the bedroom. Or I just wanted to paint like that side. Because I don't think that that's not something you get to experience it till you actually get to go through and it's fun. It's really enjoyable. So maybe I see some nodding heads or whatnot. Maybe that's been your experience, too. But yeah, there are out there.

Jacqueline

To being able to, to to connect on the experience itself. You're

Unknown Speaker

connecting on the experience, and also making sure that there's communication both ways. Like, oh, what you did back there, that wasn't cool, or Oh, yeah, I'm totally comfortable with that next time. You don't need to ask me for permission, and all of that stuff.

Effy

Yeah. That's great. And actually being able to bond over that stuff like crossing over the conversion. This is idea of comparative. You heard of this idea of conversion? Anybody who's, who doesn't even know what conversion is? Some people okay, so this conversion is idea of some people talk about as being opposite of jealousy. It's actually an old old idea is sympathetic joy, joy for somebody else for the joy that they're having, that has nothing to do with you. So your partner coming, your wife coming home, from a really good day, having had awesome sex, and you're like, amazing, good for you. Like that's conversion, and that those conversations that you're having seems like feels very compulsive, like you're gossiping over, like, all the time is very competitive. So that's, that's awesome. Energy, awesome dynamic. It made me um, it made me sort of think of Also, it's worth mentioning the dark side of that, right? The dark side, that is this idea of couples privilege isn't really heard out of couples for marriage, you probably it's coming up for you, right. And this idea of couples privileges, that if you are, if you are, you're operating in the world as a couple and you're opening up and you're sort of allowing other people in that the idea that as a couple you have privilege over the other relationships, and it comes sometimes comes with a side of veto power, maybe people who are inside you have veto power, that one of the party, one of the couple gets to say no gets to shut it down without any discussion without any conversation, they say not this person not anymore. And therefore that relationship has to end. So these are some of the darker side of of hierarchical relationships. Again, at the core of those, there's a lot of fear. There's a lot of need to control need to feel important that you got something right you can throw down something like a veto power. These do exist. It's not what it's not what Jason is talking about. Justin, it's not my Justin talking about that compressive sharing is great dynamic. The dark side of it is when you also get the rule over the exhilarate relationship. The other relationships is when it's not healthy, but it's not a good idea and it's also just unkind. It's not fair. It's not fair on the people who are coming into that relationship. That is there shows up as them being disposable and an important in a way that you can just you can just get cut out and didn't get to stay in it. is something worth sort of thinking about even when you're in a hierarchical relationship?

Jacqueline

You also want it to give a warning about sharing, if CO in terms of couples privilege not being the person who is relaying?

Effy

Oh, yes, absolutely. The other. The other aspect to think about is, let's say you're in a in a v, right? So you you, I'm talking to people, right? Sometimes what happens is in an hierarchical relationship, well, my let's say, my wife and my boyfriend, right? So well, we're in a hierarchical relationship, my wife, gets gets, you know, overrides everything to do with my girlfriend. So sometimes where people find themselves is just relaying the information and saying, Well, I can't see you Tuesday, because my wife, my wife says no, right. That's not what's happening. You're not seeing this person. Because you've chosen you've agreed to your wife saying, I don't want to I don't you know, not on Tuesday, when you find yourself when you're if you're relaying the information, you are essentially taking yourself out of the equation, and you're just relaying the information back and forth, right? The truth is, you're agreeing. And if you're not, you should be agreeing or disagreeing, and having agreements not rules about how you're going to conduct those relationships, and then you take responsibility for that. And then when you have conversations, is a conversation that you're having with this person, not as a not as a proxy to your wife, or the other way around. Does that does that make sense? So whatever the agreement, if you are in a hierarchical relationship, there's nothing wrong with them. Understanding the boundaries of that relationship, and then owning it, taking responsibility for it, and then negotiating between you and and your auxilary partner, you're in that relationship is really important that you're not just going because what ends up happening is people, it's vilifying behavior, right? You kind of you don't take responsibility. You say it's not, you know, it's not my doing like this person says, so therefore I do, right. And that's not that's not how relationships work. So if you are in a hierarchical relationship, these are some of the things that these are the dark sides of it that you need to really watch out for. So couples privilege, veto fat power, and it's relaying of information without taking responsibility.

Unknown Speaker

I just want to piggyback off another aspect of what you refer to as a veto power. It's also known as the one no vote. If either of us say no, then it's just off the table. When I first heard that, I asked why that's kind of unfair. But there's, there's a different side to that, too. And that is that if we come to an agreement that if either of us say no, then it's off the table. What I might do then is before I even present it as something that I want to do, I might offer something so irresistible, in order for me to get what I want to that person that would totally blow their socks off, that they would not possibly want to say no. So actually, that rule can also apply Well, if we agree to do that. And we're going to want something before I approach it before I put it on the table, I've got to think of something that you just cannot irresistibly deny, and make it so attractive to you that there's no way you're going to say no. So I think it has also a positive aspect to it. I know the veto power is one thing, but if if we think about it, how we prepare for that, that the least possibility for that OneNote vote to happen. I think it gives a lot of creativity on how how two people or three people in a relationship can get their needs met? Sure.

Effy

I think when I use when, when I hear you say that, to me, that's like optimum agreement making this idea of like really crafting the things that you want and agreeing on those things. I think where I find the veto power one, no power becomes dark and toxic is it's down the line when somebody feels triggered or insecure when something happens. And it's like, okay, we're shutting this down. Now. That's when it becomes a dark side. But I totally agree with you that when in the negotiation part of things people think about when I'm negotiating, it's going to be like hardcore negotiation, what makes it what is a good negotiation is when you wrap it up, and you make it irresistible, and you make it accessible, you make it inclusive. And that's how you do it do agreement that relationship agreements in that way. So I totally agree with you. It's, it's when when it turns toxic is when it becomes an issue when it's rooted in fear when it's reactionary, is and then it becomes a bit dark.

Unknown Speaker

Maybe have a resentment in a lose lose situation.

Effy

Exactly, exactly.

Jacqueline Misla

Burning Questions. Any other because I want to be mindful of time. So we're gonna hang out till 10 after this and you can ask questions individually, but it's 930. Now so I want to give a moment if there's anybody else that wants to share something in the room, a story something that's resonated a question that they have for the group, I want to offer up space for that.

Speaker 3

Hi, I like your comment was really good because I've kind of been like that person that that doesn't really care about all the other stuff. But then like, like, what makes me like, what people like about me is a accumulation of all the people that I'm dealing with. So, because of like, society, you know, I've always been put in a position where I just had to conform, especially like, when you like, when you feel a certain way about somebody and your actions and making them happy. So it's just like, Okay, I don't want to see you unhappy, you know, I'm saying it's like, alright, I can conform to this, because not a super big deal, you know what I mean? But then, like, a part of me dies, you know, I mean, and I find, like, as the relationship goes on a year and a half, and, and I can work on your needs, but then my knees start to go away. And then like, I wake, like two and a half years into a relationship, and it's like, yeah, I don't know why anymore. And then I just like you, I can't do is anything like that usually does a person off because like, there's no problem. You don't argue I'm not the person that argues or, you know, because I get things that are upsetting me or like, or, like few far between. And it's like, specific, and I'll let you know, like, like you, you wear blue today? That's horrible. You know, don't wear blue, nothing like that. But just so I'm really like, straight to the point. And he's like, do you want to do it? Or you don't? Either way, I'm letting you know, right. But like, the idea of like, usually when I'm single, you know, I'm running around and I'm, you know, I have everybody's Can you kind of said like, which is him he was some people have certain experiences that brought him this way. So I wore a uniform for a long time. And then I went through periods where I just lost a lot of people. So like, every time he somebody, like that experience is very unique. And I treasure it, you feel me. So it's like, I don't care if we have sex or whatever, whatever. But like, for whatever reason, 7 billion people on this planet or whatever, and we haven't crossed paths, right? I'm gonna take this time to get to know you. And I see you now like in a crowd and the crowd of a million, I see you and I never stopped seeing you. You know, I mean, so when I come into a relationship goes up there to say, like, Oh, you have like this tribe of people with you. But I mean, ultimately, if you haven't done anything to hurt me, we just didn't work out. But it doesn't change who you are, as a person, the things I loved about you, I still love about you. I just can't go in the direction that you want to go into. But I still want you, I still would like to be around if you allow me to be around. And I find like, like hearing about you. Because you guys have given like names and like, categorize behaviors that I've been exhibiting over the years. It's kind of like cool and refreshing. You're gonna mean, but I've always felt like the bad guy. Because like, like you said, like, you know, people say like, Yo, you should be a certain way. You know, I mean, and in the way you want me to be just, it doesn't make me happy. Like, I don't know how to explain it. You know, I mean, I don't want to, it's not about anyone around me want to talk to people, but like, people give me life. So the idea that you just want me to be with you. You're awesome, but you're only one person. And like, that's not how you met me time thing. I mean, so I love your comment, because I I kind of like feel like like under that person. But I You say you're happy about it, for me has been like a curse. Because I look at my friends that have gone on to have like, really good relationships and have kids and whatever, whatever. And I'm in my mid 30s. And I kind of like I want that. It's just, I don't want it in a way that you guys are doing it. Now you guys particularly like mainstream society, because that doesn't make me happy. And it makes me feel like I'm broken. Like, okay, maybe I'm the weirdo. And I need to like, actually kind of like, bring me out here. Because it's like, I feel like a total weirdo now like, it's like, your 20s is kind of like cool, because you run around, like, oh, man, you got all these girls? And I'm just like, ah, not really, I got people that I know, you know, I mean, that's a big deal. You're gonna mean, but now in your 30s I still have people that I know. But it's just like, because of the way we are, as a group, like these relationships just aren't like, I'm not going to change. So this is not a gimmick. You don't I mean, I'm not trying to do this, because I'm trying to get laid. You know, I don't really have sex that much. You know, I mean, I just know a lot of people want to have intimate relationships with a lot of people. You know, I'm saying so. And then people try to change you. And it's like, no, well, you should be this way. And it's like, I haven't been able to get past that point. Because regardless of how you come into it, and she's might be super excited, like, Oh, you're awesome. A year and a half, two years into it. She's like, we're still doing this. I'm like, Yeah, this is just me, like, what else you want me to do? You I mean, it's like, well, I want to do this, like, I would do that too. But well, in order for us to do this, well, you got to do that. Like Well, that's not me, though. That's you. And then we part ways. So it's funny to hear like from your side, because to me, it's like I hate it. I totally hate it. But I can tell you if I can hang my hat up and do monogamy and be this quintessential wife, kid, two kids doll. I'll be happy because where I am right now is like, I just feel like a total like outcast and I can manage relationships, I can maneuver into them because I have a lot of experience. But I'm not meeting anybody that's on the same like, understanding as me it's just we're just playing a game you know, saying I can play the game until you don't want to play the game anymore. You know? I mean, like that. Thank you.

Effy

Sounds like you're polyamorous Welcome. Welcome. And it sounds like you just haven't met your species. Reid Mihalko says this, dating your species, right? It just means that you haven't met people who are subscribed to the same design as you do. Amen. I'm sorry, you haven't, I hope this will be like gateway. There are. There's a huge community in New York City, there are plenty of people who are practicing non monogamy or exploring it or just like curious about it. I think it's just about you, you aligning yourself with those people so that you don't feel so which is an outcome.

Jacqueline

So I am going to because of time, I do want to wrap but we can talk more kind of socially about this. But I think it was actually a beautiful way to end. And there's a few things that I want to capture and what you said, I think this idea of I can conform, but I'm piece of me might die. I think we've all felt that way. And that's why we led us to this room. I love this idea that you've talked about, about really seeing people, and valuing valuing the connection and understanding the valuable impact of all the people who we have experienced and connected with. And this concept of that we are not the bad guy or the outcast, that we're all trying to find our way. And that if we do that, with kindness, and trust and authenticity, that we may actually be able to land in a place of thriving. So with that, we want to say thank you guys for joining. We're gonna hang out upstairs and hear. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you guys. And stay curious.

Effy

Here is curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind, and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious, curious curious, thank you. Stay curious. Stay curious.

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