Ep 103: Colorism, Featurism, Texturism and Sexual Self-Esteem with Dr. Donna Oriowo
Art by @morelaaand
This week Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla are curious about colorism, featurism, and texturism and they are joined by Dr. Donna to chat about:
What are colorism, texturism, and featurism? Where does it come from? How does it show up day today?
How does it impact sexual self-esteem?
How does this impact relationships between people of color?
What can we do now that we know this?
To guide us in our exploration, our guest this week is Dr. Donna Oriowo:
Dr. Donna Oriowo (oreo-whoa!) LICSW, CST, is international speaker and certified sex and relationship therapist in the Washington D.C. metro area. The owner of AnnodRight, Dr. Donna specializes in working with Black women on issues related to colorism and texturism and its impacts on mental and sexual health. She is the author of Cocoa Butter & Hair Grease: A Self Love Journey Through Hair and Skin. Dr. Donna is an advocate for sexual freedom, self-love, acceptance, and accomplishment for WoC, especially Black women. She collects inspiring quotes, eats donuts, loves pasta, & stays home--cuz COVID aka Rona.
Dr. Oriowo currently serves as co-chair of the Diversity, Equity, Inclusion committee with AASECT, Communications Steering Committee Chair, too. She can be found on Facebook and Instagram @Annodright OR you can visit her on the interwebs at TheCBHG.com or AnnodRight.com
To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla on Instagram.
If you have a question that you would like to explore on the show, reach out to us and we may answer your question on one of our upcoming episodes. Leave us a voicemail at 201-870-0063 or email us at listening@wearecuriousfoxes.com
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TRANSCRIPT:
Effy
Welcome to the Curious Fox podcast, for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.
Jacqueline
And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today we're talking about how our conditioning impacts our sexual self-esteem, particularly for people of color. So in Episode 96, with a dar eye and Brooke, we did we talked to him about human evolution, relationships, and Playboy covers. And in there, we talked about why we are attracted to whom we're attracted to, from an evolutionary perspective.
Effy
Exactly. Dr. Eisenberg told us that it was essentially about symmetry and proportions. Yeah, it was that simple, right. And he was just like, all the bells and whistles, ultimately, you're coming down to proportions and symmetry and more symmetrical people's faces, the more attractive we find them. And there's a golden ratio for the human body between men and women. And when you hit that golden ratio, you're considered beautiful, huh?
Jacqueline
Yeah. And then of course, as people, we make things even more complicated than that. We're like, how can we capitalize on that and make it actually harder. And after the episode, Effie and I talked, and we were curious about the impact of our current surroundings on whom we're attracted, based on the standard of beauty, as Dr. Eisenberg shared, nature-nurture goes hand in hand. So in this case, our evolutionary preferences and conditioning and prejudices, and capitalism, all impact how we see beauty in ourselves and other people. And for me, in particular, as a person of color, I think it's important to name when we're talking about conditioning, how this impacts people of color in a very unique way.
Effy
So why do you stand as a beauty impact people of color, more decking?
Jacqueline
Wow, it's a great question. I mean, we can have a whole episode just on the history of racism and prejudice within the United States. That is not the work that we do. Not here.
Effy
We'll start another and we'll start another what guests for that conversation.
Jacqueline
But as it relates to the work our work around relationships, and knowing yourself and esteem and sexual self-esteem, this is a million examples. I'm just thinking about shopping and how shopping for makeup. And that light-colored makeup is often called nude or skin color. And that is not true. If you have darker skin, clothes often are not made for bodies of people of color, which may have been more be bigger, have bigger hips have a bigger chest, there are just some proportional differences that may be there that now that's changing for a long time, that wasn't the case. And even people have been fired because of the texture and style of their hair. So more than just the standard of beauty impacting how you feel about yourself. It impacted your income and impacted the way that you show up in the world. And then within that, it then internalizes and has an impact on our sexual self-esteem.
Effy
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I imagine just from being a woman, so there's like layers to this right. So I find the beauty standards are one of the reasons that contributed to this embodiment, right? Let's talk about women to start with, but we are told what beauty is and most of us don't match that beauty standard, right? Because we're normal people and what's what is presented to us as beauty standards or Eurocentric, filtered, photoshopped, a small minority of the population feels current in that moment, right. So this was presented to us so we look at those images and we're not that and it causes this embodiment we are unhappy, uncomfortable with our existing bodies, so we disassociate from them. I can imagine for people of color, it's not only about discomfort and not being I'm satisfied. In addition to that, it is also the reason why they're oppressed or why they suffer, or why they may be in danger today, right? So when your physical appearance and your body are the cause of your oppression and the cause of your suffering and the cause of feeling unsafe in your body, I can imagine it results in real this embodiment and disconnection from the mind-body connection that we talk about. And once you're disconnected from your body, once you're disembodied, you have no access to your inner wisdom, it's very hard to have good boundaries in place, and you get disconnected from your pleasure. I think those are the reasons I can imagine why beauty standards have an extra superduper impact on people of color.
Jacqueline
Yeah, I love the way that you phrase it. I don't think I ever thought about it in that way that if our bodies are the cause of our oppression within the society, then we show up as disembodied. Yeah, yeah, you know, I am light skin, you know, so, so white presenting. And so my experience within the world is impacted by that and the privileges that come with that. So I want to name that. And growing up in my teens in my 20s. And I'm sure even now in ways that I've yet to discover my sexual experiences my sexual self-esteem, my way of viewing myself was completely impacted by internal racism. And colorism and texture ism and feature ism. I was really self-conscious about the color of my areola and my labia because they were not pink. And the standard of what I saw out there, and you know, movies, and such were pink, you know, pink nipples, and pink vaginas and mine were not. And so I was really self-conscious, I, I missed a lot of sex in the shower opportunities, because I did not want my hair to get wet. Because I meticulously strained it and did not want the witness to reveal my curls. Yeah, so again, you know, while am I presenting I know, this, then is more difficult for folks who are less racially ambiguous. And yeah,
Effy
I mean, that sounds painful. I think this is one of the reasons why representation is so important. Right? That's why we go back and talk about that a lot. And I think, you know, for, for somebody who's getting a handle on themselves, and really getting to know themselves and supposed to love themselves, I think it's it's hard when you don't see representation out there, that is considered beautiful, you know, and, um, you know, I'm sorry, that was your experience, I can see how that sucks.
Jacqueline
And what's interesting is, I mean, literally, no one who has ever slept with me, or was like, saw me and I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute. Your yellows are browner than I expected we can't do this, right, that has never happened. So it was it, there was an irrational fear around, that someone is going to see me in a certain way. It's the same reason why, you know, insects for a long time, I was like arching my back and hiding my folds. And we've had that conversation before. But it doesn't matter whether or not my partner was a person of color. It didn't matter whether or not they ever indicated that some of those things were problems for them. It was just the way I saw myself as beautiful. Based on your point what was illustrated around
Effy
me, it's interesting to me that it impacted you, even when you are with people, when you are with people of color, like when you're in relationships, or you're playing with people of color, that it's interesting that you're impacted even then, can you tell me a little bit about that?
Jacqueline
Yeah, yeah, you know, this is and it goes back to it within internalized racism, it is internalized within our communities of color. And so there are folks who make decisions about whom they want to be with based on the color of their skin and the texture of their hair, and you know, whom they're going to take home and is going to get approved. And so that existed, and then in my nakedness with those folks, I just, it's not rational. I don't I can't even give you an answer to say, This is why that makes sense to me. I experienced it with my partners as well on their end, that we're all continuing to try to adjust to a standard that is not natural to us. And we don't talk about it. At least I didn't talk about it. I didn't name it. It was just the thing that you do. And so we were both just doing the thing that you do live in the United States. And so I don't it certainly wasn't conscious enough at that point. I think certainly I'm in a different place now but it was not top of mind to have even asked about it knowing about it talked about it determined why we were even doing that everyone, everyone as Ariel is here are brown. So why are we? Why am I so conscious of this? Yeah, I don't know, I just, you know, looked at myself and thought, I don't look like what is supposed to be pretty. And even if this person is with me, and they're having sex with me and their relationship with me and they seem to, I still know that there's somebody who that they really think that's actually more pretty than me. I think that's what it came down to.
Effy
Yeah, so, yeah, yeah, that's suck I'm sorry.
Jacqueline
Yeah, yeah, I think, you know, I wasn't until preparation for this conversation, that I was able to connect those dots. Like, it really wasn't until I was sitting with it and saying, Okay, how has it impacted my sexual self-esteem? And then it was like, example, after example, after example, came up for me. And, you know, that's, that's a conversation that we're going to dig in even more today. And we're going to talk about some heavy things. I mean, certainly, capitalism, which often, I think comes up in our conversations when we talk about society, and talking about racism and talking about white supremacy. And, you know, actually, let me take a glass for a moment because I want to take an opportunity to define what white supremacy means in the context of our conversation today. Because you know, within the US, I think that when we hear that word, we think about the kk k, or proud boys or overt racism. And white supremacy is not just about one's individual belief that European descent or white presenting people are better than people of color. But as a society within the United States, our standards are created were created by white people, to benefit white people. And so even though someone may not believe that they're being racist, the way in which we live our day-to-day lives, is impacted by that lens, our society is designed to afford white people more privileges than they do people of color. And so that's what we mean, particularly in this context around white supremacy, that the standards around us were defined by whiteness, and the rest of us had to adjust.
Effy
Yeah, I think the distinction here is like white supremacy with capital W, capital S, is this sort of the movement try this is the kk k, the prow, boys, the overt racism, I think what we're talking about here is the supremacy of whiteness. Right? Which is that the white, the whiteness, and the characteristics of whiteness are prioritized and are considered to be the standard, right. And that is the main distinction. I think sometimes this gets lost in the language. And I think sometimes because of the potency of the idea of white supremacy with a capital W and the capital S is so severe, not many people associate with it, right? Not many people identify with it. And it can be the reason why people will kind of distance themselves from ideas, because they're like, well, that's not me. Right. So I think that's why it's worth mentioning that here because we use the term white supremacy in this conversation with Dr. Donna. It's an invitation for our listeners to remain open. And to really hear what she has to say, without getting defensive around the language of white supremacy.
Jacqueline
Yes, yes, yes. Because for many folks who are saying why, you know, I don't consciously contribute to that, if you if the standard of beauty is tall, thin and blonde, and you were taught and blonde, I don't think that you created the systems of blonde tennis, right? I don't believe that you personally decided that your hair was better and that everyone should then dye their hair and in the same way, I don't believe their white folk now who are like, I think this is better. And I'm gonna shift it. I think that is true. That's the capital W capital S version of white supremacy. But so just naming that to say that some of these conversations feel uncomfortable, and they're important. I wish when I was in my 20s I heard someone talking about brown labia’s period to be honest.
Effy
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. representation matters. I do think that we just need to get labia is to start with and then make sure there's there is a representation of all colors, all shapes all did you but yes, I mean, I wish people talked about labia today.
Jacqueline
Yes, more. Yes, yes. Yes. We're gonna have a campaign about the rainbow of colors of labias. Yeah, I love that. And since we're defining things, let's have another glossary moment I referenced colorism and texture ism and futurism. And so what is that? And our guide to answer that question and to help us continue to unpack this conversation is Dr. Donna Oriowo.
Dr. Donna Oriowo
All right, am Dr. Donna Oriole, I'm a sex and relationship therapist in the Washington DC metro area, though I find that my title is now becoming ever the more expansive so I'm probably doing a lot more speaking, and educating workshops, etc, etc. At this time, I connect how colorism and textures in particular impact mental and sexual health. And I guess the world knows me as a therapist that is slightly on the side of could be inappropriate, but maybe slightly funny. I don't know People tell me I'm funny, but I don't feel it's the perfect mix.
Effy
It's the right complexion. I love it. Well, thank you, Dr. Donna. We love having you here right now. Racism is a topic that's been widely talked about thankfully, and we are becoming more and more aware of how it shows up our part in it, and how we can make some changes. It's an ongoing current conversation, which is so super, super important. Today we want to drill down a little and explore colorism, textures, and Futurism and how it affects sexual self-esteem. I find that it's always good to start from the top. So can you tell us what is colorism, textures, and features? And where does it come from?
Dr. Donna Oriowo
They are the sort of implicit and explicit preference for Eurocentric before Afro-centric standards for skin tone that is wider hair textures that are straighter and facial features that are thinner or finer, respectively. colorism is about the favoring of lighter skin and wider and lighter-skinned individuals over darker-skinned individuals. Texture ism is about favoring naturally straighter hair over kinkier or coyly or hair. And feature ism is favoring than our noses than our lips. Certain almost one of the delegates, but I'm saying it in quotes, sort of facial features, so ones that don't necessarily Mark someone as immediately being of African descent.
Effy
So it's like racism applied to aesthetics? It is racism.
Dr. Donna Oriowo
Yeah, yeah, it is actually racism. So the way that we understand racism, I think that sometimes we take it outside of the physical, and how do you know to whom you are going to be racist if not by how they look? So I think that sometimes we talk about colors and textures and features as though they are separate entities related but separate. And they are not separate. Because you know, whom you're discriminating against, you know, whom you are conducting racism against by what they look like. You're able to look at them and say, You are other, and I'm going to treat you in the way that we treat those who we consider being other. So I think that I mean, yeah, it's not just the explicit preference for like, I think preference can be a very loaded word in and of itself. It's more about the systemic and systematic, cultural, pervasive ways in which we show that one is supposed to be mightier than the
Jacqueline
other appreciate that distinction because that was one of the conversations that Fe and I have been having in preparation for this is the distinction between personal preference, and what we are being fed around what is beautiful, and what is sexy, and how that sinks into our minds and impacts at some point or preferences that we may be able to override that. But it's in there. It's embedded in there.
Dr. Donna Oriowo
Absolutely.
Effy
It's interesting, actually. So this is such, this is exactly the conversation that we were having, and the fees that I was getting sort of stuck on is this idea that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right? And then if that's the case, how does this work? Right, like, how are people impacted? And I think what you've just said, connected a bunch of dots for me, which is, that might be the case, on an individual preference. But if the system is saying this is beautiful, even though your preference might be diverse, colorful, and whatever, essentially, the people are still being oppressed and segregated. And it doesn't, it doesn't really matter what your personal preference is. So Jackie, and I were having a back and forth about this. And now I realized as I was a little thing is like, oh, it's not one or the other. It's actually but the beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and the system prevails. So both of those things actually existed and continue to oppress is what I'm understanding.
Dr. Donna Oriowo
It's funny, I've been having more and more of these conversations. And I mean, you would expect that I would, because this is my area of expertise. But I'm actually surprised by how many more of these conversations I've been having in the last just three days, as it were, and that I liked that you talked about this idea, the idea of the beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think that we think that we are the ones beholding? We are not. I don't know that you can have any preferences that have ever been unexamined. What can you prefer? Without having actually examined where that came from? And a lot of us, are moving through life having never examined any of it. I'm looking like you said you prefer it. But do you prefer it? Or is this all you know? Is this what you've been taught? Is this what has been consistently and constantly in ceaseless li fed to you as a preference? I think that if you spend enough time with zebras like if you did it from the time that you were a baby and never saw another human, you would be able to say, Oh, yes, that Zebra is very sexy, you would be able to identify what makes the zebra so damn sexy, maybe not in English, because you would have spent all your time Severs, but just the same. That is the pervasive nature of being around just one thing for it to be constantly for you to be inundated with, it sort of reminds me of like this idea of breaking horses, right? Like, you can break a horse so badly, although we think of breaking a horse in as a good thing, right? But you can break a horse to the point where you can ride it to death like the horse will allow you to override what its body is demanding. And some of us think that is the right of humankind, that because we are humans, we are allowed to domesticate and break things that are around us. And a lot of us don't realize that we are also the horse, we have been hijacked by who has chosen what beauty is, and it is often the rich white elite, who have chosen what it is because they have felt a need to distinguish themselves to distinguish their money from everybody else around them. So they have decided what is beautiful. And we think that we are exempt from the choices and that we're so above it all while I'm having a Devil Wears Prada moment. And in that blue sweater, but you think that you are exempt because you chose that frumpy blue sweater. But you're actually picking the sweater that was chosen for you by the rich white elite? Yes. And that's for everyone. That's not just for people of color. Because I think that there's this idea that colors and textures and racism even really only impacts people of color. No, it impacts us worse. Certainly, it impacts us in a different way than it will impact white and white presenting people on the black it still impacts them. I'm looking like come on. Now the beauty industry is a billion dollar industry, why it's made off the back of you feel ugly. And how you can make yourself look better. How you can make yourself feel better about the fact that you were born with the looks that you should have been born with. It's, oh, well, you're not blonde and you don't have blue eyes. But contacts can do the eyes. A bottle of dye can do the hair. And you too can have hair that does all that extra movie stuff. And you know, like those Herbal Essences commercials of the you know, the late 90s, early 2000s, right? So you can YouTube can actually be sexy and desirable. If you buy this bottle of shampoo. Your happiness is one hell wash away. Your happiness is in the in a bottle of nail polish.
Effy
And that is what 60 is
Dr. Donna Oriowo
exactly. It is dangerously pervasive, because a lot of us are also overriding what our own bodies want and eat because we're telling ourselves that we're not thin enough that we don't have the type of body parts that are enough of the type of body parts that other people would find attractive. This is the pervasiveness of white supremacist, patriarchal capitalism. It is your beauty standard, it told you and then we follow.
Jacqueline
It makes me think of the Ibram X kendi who talks about that when you're standing in the rain so long, you don't realize that you are wet. And I think that that's what you're talking about is that racism is poured on us in such a way that we don't even realize that we are wet. We don't realize the impact of that we don't realize how we are ingesting that and projecting that
Dr. Donna Oriowo
it is mundane. White supremacy is mundane, it's every day is pervasive, it's everywhere. And we trick ourselves into believing that some people are simply deserving and other people are not. We have not seen how they are choosing who is considered deserving and who is not. Because colorism textures and features and impacts at every level of society and look like Why do black women die earlier? Well, black people as a whole die earlier because racial stress is stress. But it's worse the darker you are no one checks those statistics right? We just lump everything together to say that the black X periences this, but the darker you are, the more obviously black UAW and an anti black society, the worse off all of your outcomes are not making as much money likely to die earlier. For those who are able to give birth, or want to give birth, horrible outcomes for pregnant Volk. This is pervasive, it is everywhere it is ceaseless, and it is normalized. And that, for me is the scariest part, how normal it all seems. Can you talk about
Jacqueline
how that impacts our mental health, how that impacts our sexual self-esteem, I know that you're talking about it, certainly as it relates to stress, and that impacts our mental health and then within communities not dealing with our mental health as a part so so it was actively impacting us, and we couldn't do anything about it in a way that felt safe. Can you translate that to how that shows up in our sexual spaces?
Dr. Donna Oriowo
I think of it, firstly, as impacting your general sense of self, how you identify yourself how you see yourself, which means that it greatly impacts your self esteem, your self concept, all of these things are impacted self esteem as a subset of self concept. So self concept is the concept of your entire being everything that you know about yourself. Self esteem is how you feel about it. It impacts both. It impacts how you see yourself and how you feel about what you see, which can then in turn, increase your anxiety, increase your depression, you are certainly this is a form of trauma. People don't think of colorism as being something that would offer any level of trauma, but it is a form of trauma with what very many people have grown up with. So you are already traumatized, which also opens you up to be more sensitive to anxiety, depression, self esteem issues and concerns, right? And then how this translates into your sexuality is in what partners you decide to you're going to entertain. Sometimes we entertain people who are not to put us in hierarchies, but to people who are beneath us, or rather, people who are not a good fit for us who are not in alignment with us who don't feel right, but because we've been told we ancient, we're like, oh, well, I don't I take what I can get, and this is what I can get. It doesn't matter that it's emotionally physically, or mentally abusive. I have to take what I can get, because I don't know that I can do any better. Right? What partners you believe that you are worthy of, if you do not feel like you are deserving, or worthy of the partner that you have? You can also even if they are the bee's knees, this partner is everything, you know, they are the most kind, the most loving, if you don't believe that you're deserving of them. How do you sabotage your relationship with that person? How about what you will and won't tolerate sexually? Right? Because to have boundaries, to express them, to hold them and to hold people accountable to them? Because you communicated them? You have to have some certain modicum of you know, self concept and self esteem. How are you going to tell somebody actually, you can't stick it in my butt. Right? Or? Actually, I don't prefer the purple toy. I prefer the green toy. How do you talk about your sexual preferences, needs and boundaries. If you are not feeling safe enough to do so. or feeling like you are allowed to have a choice at all? Right? It also can come through with fewer orgasms by way of spectating because you are so busy worried about what you look like and if you are appealing to whoever your sexual partner or partners are, that you are not in your body enjoying the sensations and oh, you tickle me there that feels nice. Oh my gosh, that kisses great. You're not You're not there. You're like, Oh, I got to arch my back. I should look off to the side because that would be sexy. I'm gonna lift my arm and I'm gonna do these poses sexually so that I can I can look like I am enjoying it. But you're not actually because you're not even in your body. Which brings us to another thing. A lot of people are not in their bodies. We are disembodied. Because we we don't know how to number one. A lot of us don't know how to accept a compliment. Someone tells you, you're so beautiful. And instead of saying thank you, maybe I know if that's where you're wanting to go. We want to eagerly return the compliment to get it off of ourselves. Or we say Oh, this old thing that I'm wearing or you know, I got it from Ross. So we do anything to deflect from receiving the thing that someone is trying to give us we are disembodied. So we don't know how to accept compliments. We also don't know how to accept pleasure. So we are off thinking about the Next thing or whatever we are, because we're not fully in our bodies, we can't fully experience the pleasure. We can't fully experience our partners because we're busy. Also try not to build the experience ourselves. There was no aspect of partner picking or anything that is not impacted.
Jacqueline
As you're talking, what's coming up for me are all the instances where this has had a direct impact on my partnerships and on my sexual experiences. The first of which, which led me into my late 20s Was I was incredibly self conscious of the color of my areolas and my labia, because it was darker. It was not pink, essentially. And I thought they were supposed to be pink. And no one pointed that out. No one who's had sex with me was like, What the What's up with your area was like, No, that never happened. But I was self conscious about it, I in my mind was like, somebody is going to see something because this doesn't look something I have turned down shower sex, because I used to straighten my hair all the time. Right now. It's currently I've turned down shower sex, because I didn't want my hair to get wet, because then we get curly. And they would see that I actually don't have straight hair, I have curly hair. And I've absolutely been in the experience where I am spectating and performing and arching the back and watching the folds and all of the other pieces and trying to make my hips look less wide, even though now that's the preference that that was not the preference for a long time. So so very directly as you're speaking and thinking about there are times where this made my experience difficult. Insects.
Dr. Donna Oriowo
Yeah. People don't even realize just how often they already do that type of stuff. I'm thinking about like, How many times do people have sex in the dark? Just because they're like, I want this other person to see me. Right? Folk with black and brown bodies are worried about the areas of their bodies that are extra dark, right? Like, oh, well, they're gonna think that I'm dirty because my anus or my butt crack is darker than this other Oh, I have this skin. The skin discoloration in this space? I don't know if I want them to see that. I'm worried about my smell. I'm worried about my taste. I'm worried about what I look like. And I don't know that what I look like is attractive. Oh, what about my pubic hair? Oh, should I get rid of it? Should I keep it? Oh, are they gonna think we are running through a million freaking questions. It's so very normalized, that we're just like, Okay, I just got to fix this with like, and fix it with a bottle of this or with this, this type of razor or whatever. And we're constantly going in this space? And like, are you living in your body? If all you're trying to do is control it? Are you a horse that you're trying to break?
Effy
Is a very profound and I think the more we think about it, the more we realize how much it's affecting our day to day life. I'm curious to how colorism textures and feature ism impact relationships between people of color specifically?
Dr. Donna Oriowo
I feel like that is a both beautiful loaded and difficult question. Because the presence of white supremacy doesn't lead. Right. So it can show up in preferences for partners who look a certain way. Right? lighter skinned partners with a certain hair texture, a certain look that this is the thing that is the most attractive, right? It comes up in in the past that was brown paper bag tests and contest, the brown paper bag test being that you weren't you were denied entry from churches, colleges, fraternities, sororities based off your skin tone. So it was like, Oh, if you're lighter than the brown paper bag, in sure granted, darker entry denied contest is can I come from the root to the tip without getting stuck? If I can, then you are the lot You are allowed entry. If I cannot, you are denied entry, and from various institutions, from various mosques from jobs from, you know, like, oh, you can't bring that person home to your mama, that sort of that sort of thing. Like you can't do those things. And these things were in the past. Yes, but the vestiges of them still remain. So it also impacts I think, feelings of trust and mistrust. We don't think of it that way. But I do. Particularly when people of color are gathered together. Specifically, I'm saying people of color because I want to make sure that it feels all encompassing. It's everybody who ain't white, right or ain't white identified. When all of these people come together, we still place ourselves on the hierarchy of who's closest to whiteness. We still pick people based off the hierarchy of who's closest to it, who is meeting the Look who's meeting the talk, who's going to have the most success and what is essentially a white supremacist world. So we are still sort of jockeying for position as it were, while ultimately, POC overall still are very anti black, so that a white person doesn't physically have to be present for white supremacy to continue its presence. We just continue to use it. And it makes sense because it's, like I said, pervasive, it's from womb to tomb, I don't know that there's a moment where it is not something that is being presented, that you would be free of it is consistently in the room, you have to constantly you have to consciously make decisions to separate away from it. So when I say the piece around this mistrust, it's, I don't know if I can trust my black self, right? Or my dark skinned black self with people who don't look like me. Or even with people who do look like me, I don't know who is I don't know, who is subscribed to white supremacy. And I don't know how subscribed they are. I don't know if they say that. There's the saying all skin, folk and kinfolk, just because someone looks like you doesn't mean that they are wanting to be in family or in community with you. So how then, how do we navigate this space together? So there is a sense of mistrust and trying to find who your people are, and hoping to find community and be able to maintain it.
Jacqueline
I'm wondering, to this point of we're all already wet. How do we knowing this, both as folks who are white presenting and for folks who people of color? How do we interrupt the pattern? What do we do now, with this knowledge?
Dr. Donna Oriowo
What we do now is number one, admit that it's there. I think that too many of us are not willing to admit that it's there. And too many of us are also in the space of well, I'm, I'm the good version of whatever, right? Like oh, I'm I'm this I don't actually subscribe to that. People of color as a whole don't want to realize that we are also we are an oppressed oppressor, that we also sort of, we allow repetition for the same shit, right? White women don't want to recognize that they are also an oppressed oppressor, and some would argue the most dangerous oppressor, but they're often some of the first to separate themselves out to say that, but I'm not racist. And I'm just like, are you white? Then you're racist. Welcome, welcome to the party already in progress, you are racist. And the rest of us are internally oppressed, and also likely have some racism. All right. So a lot of them like just come to the party. We're all here. We're all here already. The order you missed the hors d'oeuvres, but the main course is on the way, please join us. Right, and just being able to note what the problem is. So to see it, and to be able to discuss it without people saying that you're being divisive, or that you're a part of the problem, because you're talking about what the problem is. And you're noting the ways in which it shows up. If we don't talk about the problem, we never get to the point where how it shows up, nor do we ever get to the point where we have solutions. So first, we need to actually be willing to have these conversations for people who are on the privileged and the things. If you're unwilling to put your your resources that's your time, your effort, your energy and your money toward your learning, toward your radicalization toward any of it if you're not willing to put your resources toward it, stop lying and saying that you are, it's okay to say that you're a white supremacist. And that's where you want to say, at least let us be able to identify you stop being fake a part of the movement and we are unable to identify you and you're undermining the movement and undermining the work. I would appreciate. If you would just stop just go over there and go do what you want to do over there. But how we do the work is we first recognize that there's work to be done. So work to be done as a whole but work to be done on the personal and that we do not shirk our individual responsibility to build community of people who are also doing the work. It means that folk particularly a privilege have to stop being a safe place for people who are bigots and racists and colourise. Every single time you hear the thing you should be calling it out. Are you calling it out? Are you interrupting the narrative of white supremacist racism? Or are you just allowing it to continue in your presence? Because if people feel safe talking shit in front of you, that's a problem. It means that you're actually on to them, despite the fact that you would say that you're not racist, despite the fact that you wouldn't say you're a colorist despite all of that. think that we have to wise up to the fact that we have some individual work to do, and that some of that work will need to be done in therapy because I'm asking you to challenge your very identities. Your identity as a light skinned person, your identity, your identity as a white person, as a thin bodied person, as a person with Eurocentric features, hair and nose. All of this is going to require handholding coddling, that should not be requested from the people who are most oppressed. So for me, I'm like gather your people and gather your money. It's time to spend but spend properly. I think that oftentimes we are we are still censoring white and white presenting people and these conversations are just like, you don't belong at the center. The most marginalized belong at the center, move out of the way. Right.
Jacqueline
Should be loved led by lived experience, the wisdom of that, yeah. Are there any particular recommendations that you have for folks around where to spend their time and money and resources?
Dr. Donna Oriowo
There are several Instagram pages that I certainly recommend colorism healing is one go support follow like share, send them money because the work is hard. There is the darkest you follow the darkest hue. They have lots of followers but they are when I say that it is prime a content and breaking it down and helping people to learn that is another place to follow learn, send them money. There are books on colorism on textures on on hair history. So hair story is one of those books by Ayana bird. And Laurie Thorpe's. Usually I look at my bookshelf at this moment, but my bookshelf is not around. So that's one book to go to burn read about hair history. For those who are looking to start doing some of that internal work. I recommend my book, cocoa butter and hair grease, a self love Journey Through hair and skin. It is purchasable through Amazon, of course. But it is also purchasable through my own website. So you can go to cocoa butter and harrys.com. And it will direct you.
Effy
And we'll put this on the show notes as well, folks. So if you want to get a quick link to these, we'll put them in the show notes as well.
Dr. Donna Oriowo
One of the other things that you can do that is a little bit more on the free side is look at who you follow on social media, look at who you follow. Do you follow anyone with diverse thought? Or are you following just you know the same old same All right. So for people of color in particular, particularly the darkest among us, when you are constantly seeing pictures, videos, etc, etc, of just light and white skin people starts making it feel like they are the norm and you are not follow something else. follow someone else, broaden the horizons of who you're following, so that you can also feel like you are seen and represented. So that's something free that you can do curate your social media content.
Effy
That's something that we feel very passionate about on curious Fox, we actually call invite people to change the noise, the noise being the sort of prevailing thing that we have around us, that is our feeds, that is our close small communities that is you know, sort of the myopic way of looking at our immediate environment, and just taking that all the things that are fed to us, including the echo chambers that we find ourselves in and actively and with curiosity tune in, like tune into the things that you're not hearing, you know, change that noise for you curate that noise for you make some decisions, to who you want to follow who you want to listen to who you want to see. I think that's really important. And I love that you're emphasizing that.
Dr. Donna Oriowo
I mean, other than that, a movie that you can watch it's a documentary dark girls, it will teach you plenty if you want them with a little bit more zoom. I guess you can go with Spike Lee school days. There's a black like us episode for blackish that I definitely recommend looking into. There's a book here matters by Ingrid banks. Tender headed by Pamela Johnson and Juliet Harris is like a compilation of studies and stories and things of that nature. My website cocoa butter, hair grease, we accept logs all the time for people who are talking about their experiences. We should be open to hearing and listening from those folk. I also suggest Dr. Yaba Blay they are on Instagram at Wabco law I'm going to their Instagram definitely partaking putting money in the collection plate because knowledge should not be free, even if it is on Instagram pay for what you can pay for. They also have a book called One drop, I recommend getting it. I feel like I gave like a few resources.
Jacqueline
I know that was a lot. Yeah, appreciation, I know we'll we'll have to we're gonna listen back and write all these down. So appreciation for you for helping to helping us to get our get to know ourselves better. And in our last few minutes with you want to get to know you a little better. And so we have four questions that we would like to ask so that we can understand more about Dr. Donna. The first of which is what is one piece of advice that you would give to your younger self about love, sex or relationships?
Dr. Donna Oriowo
Focus on you. Do you want me to explain it?
Jacqueline
No, that's great. That's perfect.
Effy
Great, great piece of advice. I'll take that right now. What is one romantic or sexual adventure on your bucket list?
Dr. Donna Oriowo
I would like airplane sex. But legal. Legal was I can get it.
Jacqueline
First class in the in the VIP section? Are we talking bathroom stall? There's a lot of different options.
Dr. Donna Oriowo
You know, whichever way won't get me in trouble with?
Jacqueline
How do you challenge the status quo?
Dr. Donna Oriowo
By living by living my true and authentic out loud self?
Effy
Absolutely.
Dr. Donna Oriowo
What are you curious about lately, what my chosen life will look like 20 to 30 years from now.
Jacqueline
Thank you appreciate your time and energy. And all the things I think these are there are a few episodes that we do where immediately afterwards, I just need like 1015 minutes to sit in it. To let it let it wash over me to take some notes. And this is one of those places where immediately after I'm like, Alright, I just need to process. So thank you. Thank you. And thank you again for helping me even connect some dots in my own experience that I had not thought about before. So thank you.
Effy
Thank you, Dr. Donna.
Dr. Donna Oriowo
Thank you for having me.
Effy
Wow, that is a lot. That is a lot to think about. It goes deep. Yeah. It goes dark.
Jacqueline
Yes, yes. Yes, yes. No pun intended.
Effy
It cuts deep. Because, you know, I think it affects everyone. And of course, just like anything else, things that affect everyone affect people of color more. And here we are, you know, there's there's so much there's so much in them. One of my takeaways that is reaffirmed, you know, over and over again, I want to sing that any cue song, everyone that will be racist? Well, we are all we're all a little bit racist. And we need to think about that. And we need to be aware of that. And we need to change our noise. And you know, think about what are the messages that we're taking in and internalizing and are letting it affect our decisions and letting it conditioned us into making decisions that don't always necessarily aligned with what's happening. What's right for us that you write in the form of like, what is our inner intelligence telling us like, what is our true authentic preferences and what we think is beautiful, and we know like, instead of following our curiosity, that we follow our conditioning?
Jacqueline
Mm hmm. Yes, yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, she gave, you know, appreciate Dr. Donna give us a lot of resources, things to read things to watch things to listen to. And I do think that's important in the spirit of also just reaffirming and kind of bringing things into one's consciousness. For me, my takeaways are number one, if you are you a person of color, think about how racism colors and textures and Futurism or simply just societal beauty standards, right? So let's say you don't you don't fall within that category. Just sit and think about how does this actually impact your self concept, your self esteem, your sexual self esteem? Think about that, because I'm sure that there is something that you are doing and have been doing maybe unconsciously, that is the impact of that, like me and my you know, missing out on all of those shower sex moments because of my I don't want my hair to get curly like that. Like I'm sure there are moments like that. And if you are partnered with somebody who is a person of color, share this episode with them, and then have the conversation and ask them, ask them how they impacted Yeah, I'm because again, they may know and may not be telling you they may not know, and it'll open up something for you both and create more connection and intimacy. But yeah, talk about it.
Effy
I think there's more profound shifts, if you don't know, right, if you are not aware, it's impacting you, you're not aware, and then suddenly is brought to your consciousness with conversations like this. And you're like, damn, like, that's the reason why I don't like shower sex. Like, that's the reason why I don't like, you know, people going down on me with a light song. And that's the reason why. So I think it's even more profound when people are stuck in a certain mode and don't know why. And this could this could be the answer why?
Jacqueline
Yeah, yeah, I have the conversation, you know, and break the patterns in that way, too. I think about that with my, with my daughter, and what I'm role modeling to her in terms of my relationship with my body and sexuality, and making sure that she sees all of the colors of the labia rainbow and all of the areas and knowing that she no matter what she looks like that that is perfect. And so I've been thinking about that, like, how am I contributing to this now that I'm conscious of it in a way that is positive? How have I been contributing to in a way that is negative? However, I've been reinforcing some of these isms. And what do I need to do to stop? So that's on my mind is just really being thoughtful about the impact on myself and how I am impacting those around me?
Effy
Yeah, absolutely. It makes a lot of sense.
Jacqueline
We did an episode Episode 30, with Angie gun, around the non-monogamous paradigm shift and challenging the frameworks that limit and oppress and within there have a deep dive around how the societal norms and power and hierarchy impact our non monogamous relationships. And so I think it's just worth continuing to dig in, and seeing where there are power dynamics at play, seeing where there is bias at play, and then making decisions about it, just being mindful of it and doing something differently.
Effy
I've certainly been recently I've been binging on a cartilage just because I do that kind of stuff. And the thing that is keep coming up that, you know, he goes on about, which is, to me, it's profound. Like it's one of those things like I know, I know, it's not new, but it is, it is hitting me in a way that it feels profound. And this idea of your conditioning versus your consciousness, which is what I just mentioned that I think just realize, being mindful is the antidote to that right? Being mindful is, is connecting to the consciousness versus the conditioning. Right? The conditioning is the unconscious mind, if you will, it's just the thing that you do because you internalize something, or you're used to something or you've seen it from somebody else, and you accepted it as the norm. And then just being mindful is like, Is that is that my truth? Or like, can I dig deeper? can I connect with my own choices, my own desires, my own sense of beauty, my own perception of the world that feels authentic and, and mine, and then approach things from that place? And and this is what I'm hearing you say?
Jacqueline
Yeah, yeah, I think that's exactly right. I think that that's a challenge for all of us. Whether or not any, we do anything differently. I think the first call to action is just that determine actually, if this is a part of our conditioning versus our consciousness. I am I love that. I love that. To find out more about Dr. Donna oriola. You can visit her website at Donna oriola.com. And on Facebook and Instagram, at a nod right, a n n o D R i g h t. And while you're online, check us out. Go to our Instagram and Facebook and have conversations about this podcast. If you go on our Instagram, you're gonna get a sneak peek of what's happening next week. And you'll get to add your questions to the list so that we can ask our guests. If you go onto Facebook, you can have a conversation around how this resonated with you if there are other questions that you have and talk with us and other listeners. And if you want behind the scenes, if you want extra clips. If you want access to some of the workshops that we've done in the past, then you gotta go onto Patreon. The key that unlocks all of this is finding us at We are curious boxes. You can find us there on our website as well. There are so many ways in which you can connect with us on social media. One of the ways that we love to connect is old school via phone via email. You can call us at 201-870-0063 to leave us a message or a story or a question, or you can email us at listening at we are curious foxnews.com
Effy
This episode is produced and edited by Nina Pollack, whose beautiful spirit transcends all beauty standards. Our intro music is composed by Deb Sahar we are so grateful for that work and we're grateful to you for listening as always Stay curious friends.
Jacqueline
Oh drew so it's like we're like tuning you know like an orchestra and the beginning while you're waiting it's like and then the king chamber…
Effy
Okay, so let's get into a vibe of an interview and coming out the other side.
Jacqueline
Racism, white supremacy capitalism. They're all bad. Alright.
Effy
They're there when they made us feel bad. Yeah. Okay. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind, and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious and curious, curious and curious. Stay curious.
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