Ep 105: Erogenous Zones, God, and Sexual Self-Esteem with Jocelyn Silva (Revisited)
Art by @safiabahmedschwartz
As a part of their sexual self-esteem kick, Effy and Jacqueline revisit an episode from the archives where discuss erogenous zones, religion, and their impact on our sexual self-esteem with sexual empowerment coach Jocelyn Silva.
Guiding us this week is Jocelyn Silva:
Jocelyn Silva is a Sex and Intimacy Coach that works with women and femmes to break through their sexual shame and embrace their sex lives with confidence. With 10 years of experience as a sex educator, Jocelyn's favorite thing is teaching others about the beauty of sexual empowerment. As a queer Latina of immigrant parents, Jocelyn understands the level of shame that can be inflicted on a young girl and how that shame can bleed into adulthood. She is passionate about helping to end this cycle and uplift a new generation of sexually free badasses. She facilitates workshops, group coaching, and one on one coaching programs.
You can find out more about Jocelyn on Instagram: @iamjocelynsilva
To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla on Instagram.
If you have a question that you would like to explore on the show, reach out to us and we may answer your question on one of our upcoming episodes. Leave us a voicemail at 201-870-0063 or email us at listening@wearecuriousfoxes.com
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TRANSCRIPT:
Effy
Welcome to the Curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo and love, sex and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.
Jacqueline
And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today we're continuing with our sexual self-esteem kick and revisiting our conversation with Jocelyn Silva, about how religion induced shame and prescriptive ideas about how religion-induced shame and prescriptive ideas about erogenous zones get in the way.
Effy
I remember this interview with Jocelyn, for many, many reasons, because there's so much good stuff in there, but also about how her story was so similar to your story. Yeah, about her the way that her religion her beliefs her faith, and her practice of her religion really got in the way of her sexual exploration and sexual self-expression. And she thought she's gonna burn in hell just like you.
Jacqueline
Yeah. And she sounds like an overachiever like me. And so like if we were going to do religion, or we were going to do it. She was like, she was like, God star. Yes, exactly. She was all star Catholic girl. I was all star Pentecostal girl. I used to go to church three days a week. We were there, Sundays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. And so yes, all of that messaging. And we talked about religion in this episode before we did an episode, Episode 32. We talked about recovering from religious dogma with Maria Della Fonte, in Episode 42 We talked about Section spirituality in the Bible with Dr. Andrea Blaylock Johnson. And then we had D'Andrea back on episode 66 to talk about sex in the Bible.
Effy
In the Bible. Yes. That was amazing. She was like quoting scripture.
Jacqueline
Sounded like Yeah. It sounded it was like, like softcore porn. Yeah. But yeah, so so we have been talking in the last few weeks about what is getting in the way of our sexual self-esteem. And part of that certainly in my life was religion. Zoom for Jocelyn as well. Not only did it make me feel like my genitalia, and first of all, forget erogenous zones, that wasn't even a concept that I had, but that my genitalia was wrong, ugly, and dirty. If you think that you anything, your sexual parts are wrong, ugly, and dirty, you're gonna treat it as such. And you're gonna think other people look at it like they're wrong and dirty, and ugly.
Effy
And you gotta let other people treat them like that as well. So how would you be able to ask for what they want? Or say no, or expect them to treat your part to you with, you know, love and compassion and respect and curiosity? And if you don't, if you think they're ugly and wrong, you know, it's gonna be hard to set some standards for other people.
Jacqueline
Yes. As soon as you said that like something clicked in me in like, my teens and 20s and the things that I just allowed to happen, that I in the lack of boundaries that I had, and yeah, I didn't even think about that. But that could completely be connected to the fact that I disassociated from, from anything that was sexual arousal about me, even though I'm highly sexual, if there was such shame around it, that it was just a big model of mass.
Effy
Yeah. And also like when we are developed by our teenage years, when we are developing and exploring our sexuality, those like crucial years where we are open for all sorts of indoctrination, and if we get the message if we internalize the message that sexuality is wrong, and our genitals are wrong and that our thoughts about it are wrong, all that wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong is just going to put you in a place where you are not going to help have any sexual self-esteem. Or you're not going to have probably you're going to have self-esteem but it's definitely going to reflect in your sexual expression, which is a part of your self-expression, of course.
Jacqueline
Yes, yes. And you talk a lot about this, you've given a few different analogies of you our source code, right? And if some things are embedded in our source code, and so then it's hard to like you gotta hack into it in order to like, change that up. You've talked about the skiing analogy, how to like, if you keep skiing in the same space in the same direction, then that that is molded into the snow, and trying to find an alternative direction is really hard. Yeah. So all of those things. One of the things that she mentioned that Jocelyn mentioned in the conversation, which I love, was this idea of reimagining what the higher power looks like and represents a loss.
Effy
Yeah, that was a big, yes, for sure.
Jacqueline
It isn't until recently, like very, very, like the last few weeks recently, that I was beginning to digest that the higher power is not male. Like I know that. But there's much you know, Father, God was like such a thing. And so in my, in my consciousness, I keep thinking of it as such. But I was thinking about, I was telling you, I was on the beach, and I was thinking about vulvas I think because we've been talking about labia on everything. And I was thinking about the source of everything. And I was like, Oh, the higher power has to be female because it was a source of like it birth. Yeah, everything. And so yeah, I appreciate her naming that for me.
Effy
Yeah, I mean, I've been saying this for a long time, if it says she created us in her own image, right? It is the female of our species that gives life Harry's life and makes life and gives birth. And so it only makes sense that she is she, God, you know, yes.
Jacqueline
Or non-binary?
Effy
Um, exactly. Right. Right, right. Or Exactly.
Jacqueline
Oh, God, no, thank you.
Effy
Yeah, I don't imagine that there are some interesting things like so for example, it's, it's also amazing how so much of this stuff is like language-based, right? So in languages where they talk about God, where they don't have gendered pronouns, hmm, there is no association with you don't automatically associate male with God, right. So, you know, my mother tongue doesn't have gender pronouns. So when you refer to God, and a third person, there's no gender implied only in you know, in length languages where there are gender pronouns, when you talk about God the, in the third person, you assume a gender, right? So that's interesting. Does God have gender or not? Are we just doing it because we have language? What happens if you don't have a language? What happens in mind gorgeous words? No gender pronouns. When you imagine God, do you imagine God is a man or a woman? Right? Do you give human form to God? Can you imagine God in, in a higher power that is this, like, you ethereal being that does not have gender? Like why do we feel so strongly about assigning gender to a God?
Jacqueline
Yes, so many things I want. So there's like a traffic jam in my mind. I think what's coming up for me is how we take things that can be bigger and may prescribe what it has to be and what it has to look like. And that was another piece of the conversation that we had with Jocelyn was around, we have been prescribed a certain way to interact with our erogenous zones or our genitalia. So let's say even we do the work that we do the work to get past the religious stuff, to actually now get involved in some sexual action.
Effy
There's like, Okay, you pull this you press that you touch this, you twist that, like, there, were taught that they're like, particular things that you do, like you're running machinery, in order to turn someone on and to have that right, like a Ctrl, Alt Delete, for your sexuality. You’re like, your key combo for your sexuality. I honestly think overall, both the stuff that we talked about religion and God and also about the erogenous zones and sort of the key code for our sexuality, I think at the root of that some of it is to do with our discomfort with uncertainty, right that we need to somehow make it certain we need to somehow be able to describe right, I think that is also a reason why we signed on gender to God because we cannot sit with the discomfort of not knowing and not giving you a name. So we have we end up doing so right versus just letting it be and sitting with just not knowing, right? And the same way the erogenous zones like oh, it's the key like we need the certainty of a key of a like a key combo that's gonna give you access to your sexuality, because we can't sit with the discomfort of not knowing with the unknown and the potential to learn and discover and explore and the discomfort of being a novice or not knowing and being in these sort of shameful because it's been prescribed that way waters without any kind of without any cheats.
Jacqueline
Yes, yes. Because I think for many of us in sexual space curiosity can translate internally as being a novice, and you don't want to show up in that space like you don't know what you're doing. And so instead of saying, instead of showing up, like I've had sex before, but I've never had sex with you and this body, and I'm curious about learning your body, or I may have had sex with you 100 times, but I'm still interested in learning what feels good for you right now in your body. We don't necessarily always show up that way. Because that may look like we don't, right. I'm asking you because I don't know what to do next.
Effy
Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Totally. I mean, I think we talked about this in the interview I know for myself, that it just depends on what mood I am in where I am with my body, where I'm in my cycle, where I'm in my day, where am I in my mood journey that things just turn me on differently? I need different, a different key combo for different situations. So I think just knowing that's the case, and being okay with it and finding joy and comfort and encouragement and curiosity and celebration and celebrating curiosity is the way to go.
Jacqueline
Yes, they remember you were saying that anytime we have a lesson, we should have liked a little bell-like, like lesson woman. teaching moment. So number one, it's not just about things going in and out. That's not what it is. Number two, curiosity does not translate to you don't know what you're doing. And actually, curiosity is the way to show up in those spaces.
Effy
And there's no shame in not knowing what you're doing. I think that's also important. It's okay if you don't know what you're doing. It really is right? You are with somebody, maybe you are having a sexual experience with somebody that is different gender doesn't usually do or different, differently evil than you're used to. And like it's okay to be like, I don't know what I'm doing. Huh?
Jacqueline
Yes. Let's figure it out together. Yes, yeah. Which is actually unsafe, which is number three. Lesson number three is communication is being able to be able to know what you want inside to be able to communicate that to be able to change that and say, no, no, actually, this doesn't feel good that does, you know, this feels better. Again, not something that I was doing at all in my 20s. I was just like, I am here to accept whatever you're gonna give me and show up as grateful for it. And so I had to learn a lot of communication over the last few years.
Effy
Sure, sure. Something just occurred to me actually, there is a saying in Turkish, that translates to, and I'm going to try to do an elegant translation of this because it's such a good saying and people say it all the time, but let's throw it out there all the time. They'll say there's no shame in not knowing it's a shame, not to learn. Hmm, isn't that good? Yes.
Jacqueline
There is no shame in not knowing the shame is not wait, finish it.
Effy
There is no shame in not knowing, it's a shame not to learn.
Jacqueline
It's a shame not to learn. Yes.
Effy
Isn't that great?
Jacqueline
It's great, it's great.
Effy
It's great. I feel like Yeah, that could just be like on my tombstone. Yeah.
Jacqueline
Yeah, exactly. Every blue curious, curious vote. Yeah, very curious. Realize that. It would be a shame not to learn. Yeah, I love that. I think that that is the episode over? That's the takeaway. Thank you for joining us. Stay curious. Stay curious. Stay curious. But that feels like that's the lesson of the day. Yeah. So we go in a bunch of different directions with Jocelyn. It was a really fun episode that deeply resonated with me and Jocelyn was amazing. She is a sex and intimacy coach that works with women and femmes to break through their sexual shame and embrace their sex lives with confidence. And we dig into that and a whole lot more.
Effy
Enjoy the conversation
Jacqueline
As one queer Latina educator and coach to another, hello.
Jocelyn Silva
I'm so happy we found each other.
Jacqueline
There you are. All right, so now because we found each other I need to know so please, start. Tell us a little bit about your story, how you came upon this work, and the challenges that you like Lee faced along the way as being I mean, I'm going to try my best to not insert my story because I'm sure just based on the things I went to your website, I've read your work. I really love what you're doing. There's so much about your experience that resonates with me. And so I would love for you to share a little bit about how you got to this place.
Jocelyn Silva
Yes, absolutely. First of all, just wanna say, thank you so much for having me, I've been super excited about this interview. So thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, so it all started. When I was very young, a lot of shame, shame, shame, shame, shame, shame, shame, shame, shame, like growing up, went to Catholic school computer club grade, and never really had like a sex talk or anything like that. And so my mom is from it's a lot of my dad's from my home. And my mom was very Catholic. And so I was an altar server, I was an elector, I won the religion award in high school, I got a $500 scholarship, and eighth grade for being most importantly perished. I was a part of the cruelties every single year like I wasn't Miss Catholic school girl. And, I experienced a lot of shame around sexuality. And it was until I was like, maybe 16, that I started dating this guy who wanted to be a priest, and I wanted to be a nun. But we would like to do things with each other. And it got to a point where like, I was going to confession, like once a week, and the priest literally had to like, put me aside and say, You don't have to come once a week. And it was like You don't understand. If I don't come to confession, once a week, I'm gonna go to hell, because you don't even know the kind of shit that I'm doing. And he was like, you can come once a year, like, you're fine. But that's how intense it got for me, you know, just like this fear of God that I'm gonna go to hell just like for being a sexual person at 16. And then when I was 18, I had sex for the first time, my mom did not talk to me for a whole month, because she was so uncomfortable with the whole situation, she found out, it was a whole thing. So anyway, that's pretty much like where my inspiration comes from, from doing all of this. And then when I was around 19, my friend was like, Do you want to be a part of like this collective called coochie Los Angeles, which was my collective, but like, focused in, like, on sexual education, particularly for queer and trans people of color here in the Los Angeles. And I was like, Fuck, yeah. From that moment on, I was like, This is what I want to do the rest of my life. I fucking love it, it was so revolutionary for me to like, sit in a room full of like, 20 people and just talk about sex and like our sexual expression. And I think that was the first time I started embracing the word queer. So there's a lot more to it. But I think that that's like the gist of like, the inspiration of why I do what I do.
Jacqueline
So many questions at once, Effy.
Effy
I mean, I, all I could think of was just so many parallels from your story, like this religious upbringing, is one of the things that you know, Jackie, and I have very opposite experiences. I had no religious background. My parents were like these, like intellectual, I wouldn't say they're atheists, but they, for us, religion was just theology is like something that you understood and learned about and we'll learn about, you know, we spoke about all the different religions in this very kind of theological discussion kind of way. And then Jackie's like complete the other end very similar to your experience of like, church and thinks that she's gonna burn in hell. And, you know, and she's told these stories many, many times, and when I'm hearing you, I'm like, Yeah, I like I've heard this before. It's hard.
Jacqueline
It's hard and harsh. Culture and religion, family, and ancestry. Like, there are so many layers of things and gender, and you know, heteronormative behavior and misogyny. Like there are so many things layered on to us, that make it difficult because what I hear from your story, what resonates with me is that who you are, what lit you up, what brought you joy, was in conflict with what you were told. You needed to be how you needed to be what you need to be in order to be seen as successful as pure as, and that inner conflict to your point is creating so much shame. Talk a little bit about how you were able to strip yourself or the ongoing process of stripping yourself from that shame.
Effy
Actually, I was going to ask something because you're going to answer this question. The other thing that came up for me from what Jackie's saying is, I think we are about to do a session on this in a couple of weeks, which is that you can't be faithful, you can't be spiritual and faithful and religious and sexually self-expressed. I think that the thing is you have to abandon faith in order to be your fully sexually self-expressed self. I think that's the other conflict. Like it's not that you you've been told that what you're doing is wrong, but you can't have essentially you're not allowed to have both. You can have faith and religion and spirituality and the community that comes with all of that and be a sexually fully self Express person. You have to choose one or
Jacqueline
the other. think that the message is that we can't. Yeah, see, that's what I mean. That's why the message is to not live together that religion and three and spirituality are not living alongside sexuality, right. But that is absolutely not true. And it's interesting because actually the session, so you are going to be joining us in the virtual curiosity salon on October 14. And the following week, October 21, we have an educator, her name is Andrew black and Johnson and she's going to be doing a session on sex and spirituality, and all about this conversation. And so it has been something that we constantly talk about, because a lot of the work that we do, and a lot of our curious foxes are dealing with balancing their curiosity and their authenticity, and all of this noise that has told them that that is wrong. And so talk a little bit about that about unpacking the shame.
Jocelyn Silva
Um, so much to say about everything else was that Oh, my God, where do I begin? Okay, so I just want to preface this by saying that I have a kick-ass relationship with my higher being my higher power in the universe. Like I got my god box, I got stage like before this, I told my higher power like I put this in your hands like this, this interview goes in your hands. But it took a lot of time. Okay, and I'll talk about that in a minute. But I want to go I want to talk to what Jacqueline was saying about like, shame. For me. I actually I feel very fortunate because the first time my, my first sexual experience was with this guy who was my boyfriend at 18. And I mean, like, it was super beautiful. The first time we had sex, he lit candles, he lit incense. He played 80s goth music, you know, we had like Bauhaus in the background. And super just like sensual and like calm. So I'm like, it's interesting, because I thinking back, I think, wow, like I had this beautiful first time experience. But I was so shamed by my mom and the church, and even the act of having sex, but it was consensual. It was beautiful. It was it was so considerate and loving, right? Like I really, I did make love the first time. And so that contrasted with like, my ability to be able to, like, be proud and be like, Oh my god, I had sex for the first time. And it was great. And instead, it was like you had sex skirt. Like, hold on. Like, that's not what we do as like a good Catholic person. So yeah, so that was just like a huge contrast how to keep stripping from that shame. Well, I am a huge fan of Brene Brown, like Brene Brown is my girl, fucking lover. And it was incredibly eye opening when I started seeing her lectures, and she was talking about vulnerability and shame. And I carried so much shame around, but also something that's very important to my story that I don't talk a lot about. But I'm slowly slowly getting more comfortable talking about it, just because I think it's such an important part of me. And I think a lot of people can resonate and relate. Just like I didn't get talked to about sex. I also didn't get talked to you about having a healthy relationship with sex. And so I was a sex educator for a really long time. You know, 10 years, you know, I started when I was 19, I'm 30 now 11 years, and through that, I started really developing a lot of unhealthy relation, like a lot of unhealthy an unhealthy relationship with sexuality. I, you know, use masturbation as a way to like escape. And I cheated on all of my partners, and I was really manipulative, and was really not expressing myself, but I like under the guise of like, I'm like, feminist like empowered, like queer woman, like, I can do whatever I want. And I really, really low bottom a couple of years ago, and actually gotten to 12 STEP program for sex and love addiction. And through that program, I learned like, Oh, my relationship with sex, the way that I navigate the sex world is incredibly unhealthy. And so that's kind of when I had my spiritual awakening. And the beauty about 12 STEP program is how they talk to you about developing your own definition of higher power. For example, my higher power is not a man, my higher power is gender neutral, my higher power is clear. my higher power is sexually empowered, my higher power is compassionate and loving and funny, and like has my back. And I've developed like a lot of values through this journey, like integrity and honesty and like, fucking feeling your fucking feelings like even though, like it sucks and it hurt. Feeling of goddamn it's just been like such a draining. And I think that if it hadn't been for those dark moments in my life, I wouldn't be where I am now. And also, I do feel like those experiences have made me a better sex coach because I'm not perfect. You know, I didn't I wasn't just like 18 And like, I am like, I got this like, No, I struggled and I fucked up a lot and I engaged in a lot of toxic behaviour, which got me to where I am now? Yeah, that that breaking down of the shame, it was really helpful just to be honest about people to honest to people, you know, I think we live in a society where we're not. Compassion is not the forefront of how we relate to one another judgment ridiculing and shaming is. So when we make mistakes, instead of saying, wow, why did you make that mistake? What happened? Were like, Oh, you're fucked up person. Fuck you, right? And so just learning how to be like, compassionate, like I'm human, we all make mistakes, it's cool. How can we bounce back from this, and developing this new definition of a higher being has really helped. Also, I bring God into my mouth, vision and sex. Thank you, God, that was awesome. Thank you for giving me the ability to like express this pleasure because my higher power has given this to me. So a huge shift. But I was atheist for a long time. But there has been a big shift in my spiritual expression. I also bring a lot of meditation into my workshops in my work. So I will be conducting a guided meditation on the 14th. Because that's something that I find to be really an important part of my work with my clients.
Effy
I mean, I think you answered the question that I wanted to ask, which is, where are you with God. Now, we also spoke about this with Maria Lafond, where she's, she came from a very religious background. And she kind of abandoned it all. And like it was a toxic environment. And she talks about this extensively. And she kind of knew where she is. Now, as an atheist, you know, she doesn't even acknowledge and acknowledge the higher power, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. So I'm always interested in where that journey is, I think with Jackie, I know, you still have like, you go to church, or mass or I'm also ignorant about religion. I'm sorry if I say the wrong things, people, no offense to your religions, your faith, your practices. I am purely ignorant about the subject. So I apologize.
Jacqueline
Well, let's just say they're all the same kind of thing. They're all services, and they're all traditions. Everyone just wants to claim a new name for it. So but no, it's your to your point, faith is still really something that's important to me. And it took me a long time to be able to separate kind of the God of the Old Testament if you will, and the God of the New Testament, or the God of my upbringing, who was judgmental and punitive. And the God that I believe created me and all of those feelings that I was having. And to your point, around just feeling the feelings, like Oh, my God, how many years has it taken and continues to take for me to just feel the feelings because when you are taught for so long that who you are what you are feeling what you're desiring is wrong, it takes a long time for you to be able to tap back into that in a way that feels really comfortable.
Jocelyn Silva
Even now, with my partner, I mean, there are times when like, I almost feel like I'm buckling into a roller coaster when I like. Okay, so there's this thing that I don't really want to talk about, but I really have to tell you, so like, here it goes. And I'm like, through tears, like telling my partner like, Oh, this is how I feel. And like, because the fear of rejection, and abandonment is so real. And then it looks at me and it's just like, oh, like, it's fine. Like, thank you so much for telling me, and but it's just that initial, like, I'm going, to be honest with you, I'm going to feel the discomfort and the anxiety and work through it. Huge and very challenging.
Jacqueline
Your story, too, is, is, you know, you share out that at 18. You know, no magic dust fell from the sky. And you were like now the perfect educator or sex educator. And you know, we're like the guru of sexuality, that you learned via mistake that you dealt with, you know, manipulation and shame and heartbreak and all the things that human beings do. And I think that that's actually really important to share because I think that our humanity actually helps to help us connect with others, and help educators helps us as coaches because there are so many times I think that the folks whom I work with, they work with me because I can say, Oh, I get that. And I really do get that, like, oh, I've made that mistake, or oh, I felt that destroyed, or oh I and so I love that you finally found that that was empowering, that you have made those mistakes and lean into that in order to be able to be there for people in a way that is more human.
Jocelyn Silva
Yeah, for sure.
Effy
I think it's yeah, the idea that you can relate in that kind of yeah, that happened to me too, or I screwed up too, is powerful. For sure.
Jacqueline
Yeah, I'm interested in FE and I've been talking about this recently, you shared in your story, that it took you a little while to identify as queer. And that is not a word that actually I came to easily as well. I think that my so I have a sister who is eight years younger than me. And she identifies as queer. And when she first started using that language, it felt like to I don't know, it just didn't connect with me it felt like either young or like, like my language, I'm almost going to be 40. And so queer was not a positive word when I was growing up, and so that was not something I wanted to identify with and identified as pansexual. But then people would start to say, well, what would you say? He put this person or that person with it. And it just felt like I had to explain myself, but it didn't really feel bisexual because it didn't feel like cisgender. And it just felt, frankly, so complicated that I was just like queer. Like that felt like a catch all that I would have to. And then there was something about that, that felt freeing that I was like, it's all the things and none other things like you can't find me. Just not straight. And so and I've been I've been talking about this, because she doesn't necessarily she's trying to figure out what language she uses for herself. So I want I would love for you to share, but I want for you to start with how did the word? How did you live on that word? I'm just interested because you knew
Jocelyn Silva
that. Yeah, I'm also I have a 45 year old brother who's gay. And so he hates the word queer, too. Like, that's what we were called in high school. And it was fucking demeaning and degrading, and I hate that word. And so even healing, he's like, I don't understand why kids use that word. But yeah, so for me, I still remember and never resonated with heterosexual I'm, like, unmatched free, like it just didn't feel right. I don't know. It just it never felt right. And I remember just being like, I don't know, I'm just, I was just a sexual person. Like, I'm just a sexual person. I just I love sex. Like, I love people, whatever. And then actually, it was so funny story. When I got into coochie, and I did the application I wrote queer and the application, but then my little 19 year old self baby queer and like a roomful of 20 people, we had to identify our sexual orientation. And I was like, I'm straight. And I remember that looked at me, and they're really put the fun, like, because I was so scared of like, being like, I'm queer, you know? So for me, it's just like, I don't like I feel like my sexuality is so incredibly fluid. And sometimes these labels kind of feel restrictive. Like, oh, if I'm, if I say that I'm gay, like, Okay, I only date like women normally mean, I'm like, Oh, I like, only date men, bisexual, whatever, whatever. Right? So I think queer for me does feel really freeing. It just also feels like I just like humans, you know, like, I'm just really into human beings. Like, don't give a fuck what your gender is like, you're hot, you're sexy. You got a great personality, your consciousness spoke, like, let's do this. You know what I mean? Like, why does that have to be a factor? I guess for me, if I had to identify with something that maybe it's closest I would either be pansexual or bisexual. But even then, I'm just like, I'm a human that really likes human and like that just feels more authentic and in tune with your human being, then you have you have a chance with me.
Jacqueline
Love it? Yes. Yes.
Effy
I mean, this is the ongoing discussion, we should do a whole episode on this. Right now. I don't know why I don't identify with queer though. I just got close to it. When you said, I think generally you said just not straight, which I'm like, Oh, if I think about in those terms, I'm like that, that resonates with me. And then I think Jocelyn, we feel the same way. I feel the same way as you which is this idea that if you're a human, you have a shot. And then if people ask me what my sexual orientation is, and my answer is, is a cheeky particular. So if people say no, he was just he learned he knows a particular and that just means I am generally like particular about the people that I have sex with, but not for the reasons that that it has anything to do with my orientation. It's not the your gender, or your sexual expression that is, you know, that is particular I'm particular about I'm just particular about the people themselves and as long as they're a human being consenting human being that I have the hots for. And that that could really mean like, that comes in any shape size form, then I'm you know, that I'm game but it's not like I'm I'm putting my particularity isn't about gender. It's just about bunch of other things. And then, you know, like you said, if you're a human being consenting human being and I had the hots for you, yeah, gay mom.
Jocelyn Silva
A few years ago, I remember I met like this guy at a bar, and he was super hot. And then like, we went back to my place, and he like, chugged, like a cup of like a can of beer, crushed it and threw it and I was like, great knowing you. Like, you can go home because I'm like, illiterate. But I understand particularity. Like, there's like some things and acumen that like I would particularly like to have.
Effy
Exactly, exactly. It's like an intellectual connection. It's like value systems. There's just so many things that need to align for me. Just gender and orientation is just not one of those things. But there are just like a bunch of other things that need to align. So that's kind of where I where I ended up. Yeah, and then the queerness thing I just got close to Jackie with you saying just not straight. I'm like, okay, okay, I can I can maybe get behind that.
Jacqueline
It took me Little bit took me a little bit. Now I'm interested because we're talking essentially we're saying it doesn't matter what's in between someone's legs, right? Like where it's their vibe, it's if like you said, your your conscious, you are thoughtful. You we have shared values your heart. And this is similar to what you're gonna be talking to us about on Wednesday around. It is not let's not just focus about what is in between people's legs. And so I wanted to spend some time in that space because I've certainly been in relationships where sex meant, you know, what, is epi describes it hard penis, what vagina like that's those two things equal sex. And it wasn't until frankly, I started to have sex with women that I was like, Oh, my gosh, there's so much more. So yeah, so let's have you can you give us like a little sneak peek of what's going to happen on Wednesday? Like, tell us, you know, what are the erogenous zones outside of the core areas that we know and love?
Jocelyn Silva
Yeah. So, before I get to that, I just wanted to say it's so interesting to me, like the questions that I because you know, I get, I get a lot of questions on my Instagram or on my tick tock of people just like, wanting to know things. And I always find that fascinating when people are like, you know, I get women to like, I'm gonna have sex with a woman for the first time. And like, I don't know what to do, like, Do you have any tips? Like, what do women like? Or like, even men will be like, What do women like? Or like, you know, guys will be like, I'm gonna have sex with the guy for the first time, like, what do you guys like? And you know, here's the thing about genitalia and sex, everybody's different. How you quote unquote, what a vulva owner enjoys. Because that is different from me, and my partner is different, you know, what I'm saying? The other day is the best thing to do. If you're gonna engage with someone's like, delete whatever they have in between their legs, okay, is ask, you know, what do you like? Do you like this? Do you like that? Does this feel good? Does that feel good? And that's all it is. And I think that at the core, like, there's so many things that we use for great sex, but really all it really takes and honestly is the most challenging part is just having clear, open and honest communication. And it's like, if you got that, no matter what someone's body looks like, you can have great sex.
Effy
What I'm hearing you say is that it is about curiosity.
Jocelyn Silva
It's just, it's true. It's just asking, Hey, what do you what do you do? I always like to do like the restaurant analogy, where I'm like, if I'm at a restaurant, and the waiter comes to me and says, What do you want to eat? And I'm like, I don't know. Like, what do you think I want? I'm like, Hey, like, I would love the vegan burger with like, french fries, and the waiter is gonna be like, dope coming right up. And if the order gets wrong, then if the order is wrong, then I say, hey, my order is wrong. Can you maybe change this stuff? Right? That's how sex is. Like, what do you like? I want to be spanked on the butt with a flogger. Wonderful? Oh, that didn't feel right. Can you do it this way? Awesome. Great. Now we're having a good time. But ya know, so I'm super excited for the erogenous zones workshop that was actually a workshop that I learned through continue. I talked about coochie coochie, could you change my life honestly, it was literally a small collective of queer folks here in LA who were who were like, We need to create spaces for sexuality around queer and trans identities, opened my eyes beautiful. And so good. Usually, this workshop is done in person, I kind of switched can do it virtually, you know, because of everything going on. But with this workshop does challenge the ways not only that, we erogenous zones, but also how we treat those Rajnath zones. So, for example, I have dated people that are trans that are queer, and the way that they treat their genitalia maybe is not traditionally how we have been taught to treat genitalia, right. And so what this workshop is going to do is really encourage us to question how we want our body parts to be treated and to know that doesn't matter a livable of what's in between your legs, but it's about what you enjoy, and what don't you enjoy. Okay? And so that's a really big part of it is like everyone treats genitalia differently. So like, let's figure out what you like. And let's talk about how you can have an open conversation with someone else. Another part of it is like figuring out other organisms in your body, right? So there's going to be like, we're going to do like an anatomy it's gonna there's going to be like a good human person and not a human person, but like a diagram and just having people point out the parts of their body they like there are different erogenous zones in their bodies. But what I want this what does work Shot, essentially is encouraging is the notion that your entire body is an erogenous zone. And it's about understanding what you like. Right. So like, I can be like, I love to get hard on my ass. And like that is my erogenous zone, someone else could be like African hate, don't, don't ever do that to me, or something, like really late touches in between my thighs, or I really love like the back of my neck to be like massage, right? So it's about understanding what you enjoy the pressure of it, the type of sensation and where. So we're also going to be encouraging participants to touch different parts of their bodies, and just kind of see what feels good and what doesn't feel good. And that's going to also be really telling. And another reason why I love this particular workshop is because my biggest passion as an educator and a coach is creating spaces to talk about this. So where do you go to? We're gonna go workout at the gym? Where do you go for shop for food? At the grocery store? Where do you worship God? Epitech? Where do you go? I don't know, to to get money at the bank, right? Whereas society, we go to have open discussions around sexuality, literally nowhere. So creating new spaces. So we will be like in this space, and we're gonna talk about your sexual expression. And it's welcomed and encouraged and celebrated, is revolutionary. And that's what this workshop encourages folks to do is to be able to say, I really enjoy X y&z I actually know for a fact I don't like XY and Z. And that's powerful, because you can talk about that in a workshop. And you can talk about that with your partner a lot easier.
Jacqueline
And permission even more to figure out what that is. So that you can figure out do I like the spanking? Do I like soft touch? Do I like hard touch, like, let's just play and see and explore.
Effy
And I like that you're creating, like, you are giving the foundations and tools for a dialogue, because I can tell, at least from my experience, and I know there are many people out there who feel the same way, which is, those things shift for me what feels hot in one minute, or what feels hot, when one session might just be like you the next, like, I might be in a state where I really like light touch in my inner you know, my inner thigh would like the very tips of your fingers. And then if you do that, when I'm, you know, really amped up, then it just feels really irritating. Like I just I'm just like God, Get it off me. So I think I'm giving people tools and guidance on how you can talk about the stuff and how you can discuss it and then give them language and, and how to kind of break it down. I think it also means that it can be a continuous dialogue, and to realize that our bodies, our senses, changes, and then we can and it's okay to continuously update check in first and foremost, like chicken is this still feel good. And then be able to talk about it to your partner in the moment. And then also for your partner to be able to ask the questions and then get feedback and adjust. And it sounds like the way that you are laying this, this session out this workshop out is really less about pointing out like this is a hot zone. This is not a Hot Zone, but more about like how do you have the conversation to discover your own hot zones and your origin zones and and by the way, they may also change. So this is actually like a continuous practice.
Jocelyn Silva
Yes. And also, I love everything that you just said absolutely. Like when I was I did a blow job workshop a few weeks ago, and I love this meme. It was like an uncle powers meme. I love it. Because what is it today, Spencer swallows and I love it because it's like, what is it today, right today? Right, but it's about having that ongoing. And, and also, people learn how to communicate things that are acceptable in society, we learn how to order food, right? We will learn how to mass learn how to, like forms of communication that we just learned how to do throughout our life. We were never taught to learn how to communicate, how to express our needs or desires sexually. And so we're practices.
Jacqueline
Even more than that. We're not only not taught how not to do it or how to do it. We are actively taught to be ashamed of it. Going back to what we talked about in the beginning. Not only was I not taught how to ask, I was taught even thinking about it was wrong. Right? I couldn't even ask the question. I couldn't even give it language, let alone then learn how to ask that question. And so there's so much power in number one creating space for the dialogue creating space for for play and for figuring it out and for curiosity and for people changing their minds. And maybe I let did that yesterday and I don't like that today and just being present with someone paying attention to what you like, and communicating that paying attention to someone else likes, and being responsive to that, all of it.
Jocelyn Silva
And, and also to that there's a lot of layers, but I do want to say, it's also understanding that if your partner tells you that something that you're doing, they're not enjoying, it literally has nothing to do with your value as a sexual partner. Right? It's about, they just don't like it and like, that's okay, just like, just reset, redirect, it's all good. Because I do get lots of messages online from individuals that say, if I tell my partner, I don't like something that they do, they get mad at me. Or if I say something, oh, they're gonna get I'm scared of hurting their feelings. Right? So then there's like that fear of like taking up space, there's that fear of like, not being validated, not being seen, and also hurting someone else's feelings. So not only being able to add, like, give feedback, but also take feedback and learn that like, it's not about you, it's has nothing to do with you as a person.
Jacqueline
So if you and your partner or partners should all come on October 14, because I think that will really help give you both the language of how to communicate what you want, you'll be able then to have shared language to be able to have conversations with your partners around what they want. So let's make it a fun date night on Wednesday. Let's, let's get cozy. And let's get ready. And let's come together and let's learn let's create that space to your point. Go to the bank, we go to the grocery store, we go to church, let's go to the virtual curiosity salon. Right, let's learn something. So I'm excited. So I've decided a few things in this conversation. I have decided that Jocelyn and I are gonna be friends. That's the first thing. I decided that you have to come back and talk more because I feel like we just scratched the surface of your story. And I think there's just so much more we need to dialogue about and I've decided that I you know, Effie and I started the conversation today before you joined and talking about how I just get so excited, and I can't sit still. And I'm doing lots of things. And really what honestly, what this conversation brought to me is about being present again, being still in myself being still with somebody else. And really paying attention to what's happening in my body and in their body. And doing it with gratitude for my power, my higher power, who you know who made all this possible and so, I am excited about Wednesday. I'm excited about Wednesday. All right, before we let you go though, we are going to do some rapid fire questions. And so first thing that comes into your mind so the first question is what is one piece of advice that you would give to your younger self about love sex and relationships?
Jocelyn Silva
uncomfortable feelings are are okay and they won't kill you. So no matter how afraid you are to speak your truth you get because you'll feel better afterwards. Thanks you got to speak your truth and you can do it I believe in you. Also stopped straightening your hair you're running
Jacqueline
I went back to my curls is during COVID breathing my hair and I went to my curls. Can we talk about that?
Effy
Yes. So, my God, I am very protocols on both of you. So yes, no more straightening girls. Such a good. Okay, next question. What is one romantic or sexual adventure on your bucket list?
Jocelyn Silva
i Yes. So my partner and I are currently working towards non-monogamy. So we're reading the ethical snap together. My goal is to travel the world and a few months. Hopefully, when everything gets better, I would just love to have like a beautiful non-monogamous polyamorous relationship except in my sexual journey.
Jacqueline
You've come to the right place. Yes. So how do you Jocelyn challenge the status quo?
Jocelyn Silva
By being who I am, I am I mean, I'm Latina. I'm bilingual. I'm queer. And one thing that I actually find fascinating with how many Latinos I've actually welcomed into my space. When I do workshops, a lot of the people that come into my workshops are Latinas. And so giving individuals, someone that they can look at and say, Whoa, she looks like me because I never had that growing up. And just being empowered in my identity, I think is how I challenge the status quo. Talk it also talking about pleasure pleasures at the forefront of everything that I do. So let's talk about enjoying sex.
Effy
Please, to be honest, we searched high and low for you because one of the things that we were looking for we always looking for diversity and representation and different points of views. And we were looking for a Latina sex educator and there are there are aren't that many of there aren't that many of you? So thank you for doing the work that you do. There definitely needs to be more. One of our ambition is actually do programming in Spanish.
Jocelyn Silva
I am all in Contadina. Yes, yes, yes. I would love it, my dream. My dream.
Effy
Yes. It is also our dream so you can be a part of our dream. It's been on our vision board, you know, it's just about knowledge and capacity. But it's definitely we're looking for I am. I've been mentioned about this for a long time doing this education in Spanish, even though I don't speak Spanish, but I just know that there is a need for it. And I think it is. For us. It's so important. It's so so important. So yeah, so it's amazing. It's just amazing to hear that and thank you for the work that you do. Last question is, what are you curious about lately?
Jocelyn Silva
Oh, um, I've been really curious about anal sex lately. So I'm gonna out myself and say that I've actually never had full blown animal sides. I can tell you how to have no sex. I know. I'll do it. But that is something that I'm like, I'm never just I just never had had the opportunity. So I want to like explore my booty a little bit more. So that's what I've been curious about lately. Now, we need some booty love. Yeah, absolutely.
Effy
Yay.
Jacqueline
Love that Jocelyn. Right. Love just just just all the things just the thing? Yeah. Just before I forget if Jocelyn is listening to this revisited episode, we now did an episode on pegging and Butt stuff. So 94 have not fulfilled your anal sex bucket list wish.
Effy
Go check out episode 90 war with Lola Jean, and maybe that'll help butt stuff. It's always a good thing to have on your bucket list. And yeah, Episode 94 is a good one.
Jacqueline
Like we said in the intro, show, curious Learn, learn about the butt stuff.
Effy
Learn about them, learn about your butt look that goes on in their fun and games for everyone. So yeah, a good place to start is we also have an episode on Buck plugs as well. Yeah, random pickup lines and butt plugs. The famous episode.
Jacqueline
After the infidelity series where we needed a break, we need something like so there's a reference in the tool in case folks need it. One thing that I loved, I loved many things, as I said about that conversation. But something that stuck with me was the waiter analogy. So that you don't go to a restaurant and say, I know that waiters like what do you want? And you're like, I don't know. Exactly, that you say, you know, I want this thing. But I think the other thing that you can do is also say I'm in the mood for something that is heavier, or no, I'm in the mood for something that is light, or I'm in the mood for something spicy, that we don't need to always know the thing, right?
Effy
I think if you can't be prescriptive, right, if you are somebody who's you might be in the mood and know exactly what you want, right? You might even like, walk into a restaurant and don't even need to look at a menu because you're like, oh, you know what I'm craving pastor, like, Give me your best pastor Ray you can be you can just know exactly what you want. And you can be descriptive. You can be prescriptive, and that's okay. Sometimes you just don't know you're not that clear. You're like, yeah, like you said, like, I'm hungry. I'm craving beef, and maybe like something a little like a hottie on the side, and you can have a conversation with your waiter to then like, find the thing that will really satisfy you. And that goes for sex. Right? You can say if you can't be prescriptive, can you be descriptive? Right? Can you kind of lead people to the ballpark of what you might be in the mood for and really enjoy discovery and exploration and master and you know, all that stuff?
Jacqueline
Yes, yes. It makes me think back to the conversations that we've had with Angie Gunn in some of our episodes, where she says, “Ask for what you want all the time with no expectations”. and so describe what you want, you may not get it. You know, I was recently on vacation with my wife and we were on the beach, and we were in Puerto Rico. And that is my Motherland. Even though I realized I'm actually new to your Rican versus Puerto Rican, like, being from the island is different from being from New York. family in the island. But while we were there, she's like, you know, I want some, some real Puerto Rican food like something light and fresh and Puerto Rican. And I was like, Yeah, we don't do light and fresh.
Jessie Fresh
Never heard my enterprise Puerto Rican food. I was like, “Oh, tell me more.”
Jacqueline
I know. I was like, I'm like you're thinking about Mexico like a severe check. I'm thinking about like pig Oh, that guy. And I was like, no, no, no, we do heavy greasy like that. You can have some Mofongo you can have some, you know, Gchat. Or we can have lots of things that will taste delicious. Right light and fresh is not actually one of the things on the menu. But she asked for what she wants. I tried to be creative and think about what is the freshest thing that I could find and the lightest thing I could find on the island of Puerto Rico. But ask for what you want all the time. You may not get it, but as your partner will try to get as close as yes, that's funny, ya know?
Effy
Exactly. And then it's good language, good practice good communication. And of course, always throw in some humor, right? Like, if in doubt, if you're like fumbling around, can't quite work things out. I find that in those situations, the best antidote to shame best antidote to the discomfort of not knowing best antidote to awkwardness. You just have to pepper it with humor, you got to find a laugh. You got to get it out there. Move on.
Jacqueline
Yes, yes. Yes. is making me think so in the spirit of craving things and TMI, I have been craving some strap on action for a while now. And I have been I'm like, Okay, how do I make that easier to happen? Right? Do I like take it out? And like, lie it on the bed? Just like, it's right there. We can just reach it? Oh, what's doing here?
Effy
Oh, well, we might as well just use it. It's just saying on me, or is it going on you?
Jacqueline
And then orbit now I'm thinking maybe I need to have some humor maybe? I don't know. I need to figure out ways, creative ways to communicate and make sure that it feels easy and accessible to say like, Hey, why don't we try this tonight? Like, yeah, why don't we order some Puerto Rican food?
Effy
And do you know what you should do? You should like follow the trail with beautiful chocolate like beautiful, like really delicate. pottery. A little bit of racing. Whatever floats your boat. I'm not gonna yell. Obviously, my vision was a little different. But I'm glad you were inspired by my vision and put your own spin on it. And this is all this is about. Whatever trail is gonna lead your partner to the right spot, but like leave a trail and send them on a bit of a treasure hunt. They said no one is a bit of a treasure hunt. Right? And then at the end of a treasure hunt, they uncover whatever they open in a drawer or whatever needs to like be revealed. And then there's this Java message. Message received?
Jacqueline
Yes, yes. Yes. Well, I my partner. Well, you didn't hear this before.
Effy
This might be the message sent for the for those of you who don't have a podcast for folks who don't have a podcast these days, actually, no. Oh, good. Fantastic. That's funny. I do I wish you all the strap on.
Jacqueline
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So yeah, so I love that waiter analogy that really stuck with me and get again, continuing to find ways to better communicate.
Effy
Yes, always. Exactly, exactly. And the other things that really stood out for me, I remember when we were looking for her, we were looking high and low for Latina sex educator. And we were on a diversity cake, we had just sort of had a look at our lineup. And we were like, Okay, we really like needing to do an extra effort on this. And we wanted to very consciously very intentionally looking to curate a diverse set of guests and educators and we looked high and low for her. And we found her and we were so excited. And I I really hope that there's more Latina resources out there and there should be we will continue to have aspirations to do our programming in Spanish. Like it's on my mind. I know where the US is. We need the stuff in Spanish.
Jacqueline
Yeah, I know we I miss workshops, we do workshops. And that too. Yeah, we're gonna do workshops in Spanish we were gonna make things happen and then the pandemic and then we get tired. That was we just just sort of like I can't do I can't do podcasts in multiple time zones and workshops that that that's a lot true. We'll get back there though.
Effy
We'll get back there on site so in my mind, it will happen.
Jacqueline
Yes, if you missed the workshop, if you were not there and you want to see what Jocelyn facilitated for us around the androgynous zones, then you can watch a recording of the workshop on our Patreon. If you are a Patreon member, you are going to have access to all of the video recordings from all of our in-person and virtual events and conferences. So go on to Patreon. Get Access, go watch that androgynous zone video, you can get access to our podcast before they launched to the world, you get some behind the scenes, what are we calling it like Effie and Jackie after hours, where like, we record and we just at some point get so tired from recording that we get silly. And we just start talking about other things and get much more TMI. So if you want to know even more about us, and who already do our last conversation was about our labors and Volvo's. So if you want to know about that.
Effy
And of course, you do not. If you want to know you do want to know.
Jacqueline
Of course you want to know, you want to know and so go onto Patreon. To find out more about Jocelyn and her work, you can visit her on Instagram at I am Jocelyn Silva. And you can follow us while you're there. Also on Instagram at we are curious foxes, you'll get a sense of what we're going to be doing next, you'll hear some clips from episodes, you'll hear some clips from our Patreon and then jump on to the Facebook group. That's where we're gonna be having conversations about the podcasts after the show. So we are curious foxes will get you there as well. And we're hoping that you can help us continue to make a difference and change the noise. And the way that you can do that is by liking reviewing and sharing this podcast, it really does make a difference. If you want to talk directly to us. There are a few different ways in which you can do that. You can give us a call at 201-870-0063. Or you can send us a voice memo or an email listening to we are Curious Fox.
Effy
This episode is produced and edited by Nina Pollack, who never gets in the way I was having an awesome time. Our intro music is composed by dev Saha. We are so grateful for that work, and we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends.
Jacqueline
And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today we're continuing with our sexual look.
Effy
All right, it's gonna happen this time now we're doing them on purpose. So we have great boots.
Jacqueline
Right exactly. I noticed sexual self-esteem. Funny all right sexual self-esteem about how religion induced shame and perspective. I had it all right, one more time. This is only a scripted thing so I gotta get it right. Okay. Way.
Effy
Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind, and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious, curious. Stay curious.
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