Ep 115: Integrity, the Rider and the Elephant
Why do we say hurtful things to people we love? Why do we make agreements that we can’t or don’t want to keep? Why do we cheat, even when we are mindful of the consequences?
Effy and Jacqueline go on a quest to figure out why we step out of integrity in our relationships with others and ourselves and what we can do to prevent those transgressions by exploring the hot-cold empathy gap coined by George Loewenstein, a psychologist and economist at Carnegie Mellon University. They look to the elephant and the rider analogy from the book Switch: How to Change Things When Change Is Hard by Chip and Dan Heath to dissect those behaviour we all do and regret afterwards.
To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla on Instagram.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Effy
And when things get hot, when big emotions are triggered, or temptation is taking hold, the best thing we can do in the moment is to pause. Welcome to the Curious Fox podcast for those that challenging the status quo and love, sex and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.
Jacqueline
And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today we're curious about why we do things that are outside of the agreements that we make with our partners in ourselves. Why do we say hurtful things to people we love? Why do we cheat even more mindful of the consequences? Essentially, why do we step out of integrity in our relationships with others and ourselves? And what can we do to prevent that?
Effy
Brene Brown defines integrity as choosing courage over comfort, choosing what is right over what is fun, fast or easy, choosing to practice our values rather than simply professing them. There's not much talk about integrity when it comes to romantic relationships, especially monogamous ones. Instead, we focus on fidelity, which, although it means faithfulness to a person, cause or a belief, demonstrated by continuing loyalty and support often gets reduced down to sexual fidelity, eventually, leaving us to focus on infidelity above all. Integrity, on the other hand, means making committing and acting in alignment with the agreements that we make with our partners and ourselves on anything, including money, domestic duties, time together, sex and emotional intimacy, and the relationship values we subscribe to. We have a whole episode on this if you want to indulge your curiosity, your integrity, fidelity and agreements, you can check out Episode 108, modern monogamy fidelity in relationship satisfaction, and episode 84 relationship agreements with Eric Kardos.
Jacqueline
Today, we're going to focus on why we step out of integrity. Even those of us who say that we have our value integrity, doing what we say keeping our word and acting and our commitments, that doesn't always happen. We see that we're going to eat well, and then we snack on the chocolate chip cookie, we create and communicate boundaries, and then we let someone crossed the line. We vow not to argue like our parents, and then we get riled up and fight and say hurtful things. And we promise to be faithful, and then we cheat. So why do we do it? GEORGE Lowenstein, a psychologist and economist at Carnegie Mellon University, coined the phrase hot, cold empathy gap to describe why we can be so confident in our decisions in one moment, and then completely abandon them in the next. A hot cold empathy gap is a cognitive bias, during which we underestimate the influences of visual drivers on our attitudes, preferences, and behaviors. In other words, were likely to make sound choices, smart plans and act in alignment with our values and goals until we're hungry, or aroused or craving a drug or in pain or angry or afraid. Lowenstein says that our decisions and actions are often state dependent. So when we're calm, we can't imagine saying or doing something that would hurt our partner, and can't empathize with the person who's going to be faced with temptations or strong emotions. And when we're furious or afraid or in pain, or experiencing new relationship energy, we can underestimate the extent to which our behavior is driven by that momentary state are feeling in a cold state with thinking about values and plans and long term goals. And we can gloss over temptations or emotions that may sway us off path. And when we're in a hot state, under the influence of our bodies or emotions, we can focus on short term gratification or resolution over long term consequences. This is even reflected on our neurobiology, which we're gonna get into in a minute. The kicker is that we also have optimism biased, which means that despite the fact that we have stepped out of integrity in the past, we've cheated. We've lied, we've said mean things. We slept with an ex after we vowed that we wouldn't, we still believe that we're not going to do it again. regardless of the circumstances. We underestimate the motivational force of our future hot state. And as a result, we fail to take measures to prevent, avoid or navigate through those hot inducing situations.
Effy
In my work, I see examples of this all the time, particularly when clients come to me in the aftermath of a heated argument, or the revelation or an affair. Clients will share stories of anger fueled words and behaviors or of crossing the line into sexual or emotional infidelity. They're surprised, disappointed, frustrated and embarrassed to have failed to stick to their commitments and agreements, which can look like dismissive or defensive attitude depending on how well they can tolerate their failure. Yet, they don't do the things that are necessary to properly avoid situations in the future, leading to yet another transgression.
Jacqueline
When I'm not hanging out with Effy and challenging the status quo and Love, Sex and Relationships, I'm a chain strategist that helps organizations and people move in new directions. One of my favorite books on changes switch, How to Change Things When Change is hard by Chip and Dan Heath. In the book, the Heath brothers borrow an analogy from Jonathan Hite, a social psychologist and professor of ethical leadership at NYU Stern School of Business. The analogy is of an elephant and the person who's riding the elephant. And it offers concrete steps for how to prevent or minimize the Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde transformation that we go through. When we're in an emotional arousal state.
Effy
Different parts of our biological brain control different areas of our lives, our senses, our thoughts, behaviors, reactions, and so on. The main parts that are relevant to this conversation are the prefrontal cortex, and the limbic system. The prefrontal cortex, the newest part of our brain that sits directly behind the forehead is the part of the brain that is online and in control when we're in a cold, rational state. In heights analogy, the prefrontal cortex is represented by the person who's riding the elephant, the right, this part of the brain plays a critical role in rest and digest, or stay in play, or in this case, stay and plan. The limbic system, which contains the amygdala is the oldest part of the brain that sits deeper in the temporal lobe towards the center of our brain and connects directly into the brainstem. The limbic system is responsible for survival, and big feelings. In this analogy, the limbic system is represented by the elephant. This is the part of the brain that is online when we're in a hot emotional state, and is in charge of our fight, flight or freeze responses, we need both the rider and the elephant. The rider may be the logical responsible one in charge of the planning and directing. But they can get paralyzed by overthinking, the rider is used to dealing with complex functions problem solving and strategizing. As a result, the rider can be slow and disembodied. The elephant may be the emotional one focused on quick gratification or resolution versus long term goals. But the elephant is often the one that can cut through the overthinking to actually get things done. Unlike the rider, the elephant is used to making simple decisions like fight, run or hide. The elephant is quick, with its feet directly on the ground, ready to take action while the rider sits atop and can't take direct action. The elephant, like a real elephant has long term memory and provides us intuition or the gut feel. This is why it's ideal when the rider and the elephant works in harmony, balancing logic and emotion, gracefully working together to travel down the desired path. But then, of course, there are times that harmony is disrupted. Although we imagine the rider is in control. If there is disharmony and conflict between the rider and the elephant, the elephant can easily throw off the rider and run a riot neurobiologically when triggered, the limbic system becomes over activated, taking the prefrontal cortex offline. Because it's directly connected to the brainstem. It can drive our body and actions essentially making the logical plans and commitments which are governed by the prefrontal cortex inaccessible. Okay, let's go back to the rider and the elephant. Despite going up to 13,000 pounds and 10 feet high, elephants are scared of mice no bigger than two to three inches. Elephant behavior experts believe that like many mammals, their brains are programmed to be startled by small critters that scurry quickly by their feet. Given the often size, the reaction can cause a big impact. The mouse represents a perceived threat that might be dismissed by the rider Judy's small stature. Sometimes there is real and present danger, the elephant can sense a herd of buffaloes charging towards them way before the rider can see or hear them. In both cases, if the rider and the elephant don't have good connection, mutual trust and harmony. When the elephant sees a mouse or senses the buffalo, it can get spooked, throw off the rider and run off. This explains why our values align decisions and goals get trampled on when our prefrontal cortex is taken offline by hunger, arousal, addiction, pain, anger affair. So how do we prevent the limbic system from taking over and stop the elephant from walking us right into our hot state? Well, you In an ideal world, the connection between the rider and the elephant is robust enough to allow the rider to put the elephant that is when faced with a mouse are encouraged the rider to hold tight when the elephant takes them away from danger. This connection is strengthened through practice when we're in a cold state.
Jacqueline
Chip and Dan Heath offer these three strategies to help our writer an elephant work together. Direct the writer, motivate the elephant and shape the path. When we're faced with a new challenge or big commitment. We want to have a difficult conversation with a partner about money or we want to create agreements with a partner about how to open up a relationship, we can get stuck on where to start, or wonder if we can get through it at all without falling victim to hot state behaviors rooted in anger or fear. So, the first step in directing the rational writer to make the right decision is to remember past successes. We've all done smart, courageous, integrity driven actions in the past, even the most hotseat situations, remembering that we've navigated through and around potentially triggering situations in the past can give us the confidence and the reflective strategies needed to get through our current situation. And when we can't draw from our past experiences, we can look at someone else real or fictional, who's demonstrated the behaviors and choices that we're aiming for. Armed with more confidence, now we can decide on our direction. Now that might seem obvious, but often our decisions and actions are rooted in getting away from something that we want to avoid, away from feeling jealous or trapped, taken advantage of abandoned and golf and so on. We make commitments in decisions to avoid feeling hurt or hurting our partners. Knowing what we don't want is not the same thing as knowing what we want. Moving away from a mouse is different than moving towards food and water. So it's important to get clear on where you're moving towards in your relationship. Now that we know where we're going, it's time to plot the course, bypassing the field of mice towards less frightening terrain. For that the rider needs a map, they need to know how to get to the desired destination. clear guidance on specific behaviors will help us stay in integrity, even when the circumstances or emotions tempt us to betray a commitment to ourselves or partners.
Effy
With the logical writer better prepared for the journey. Let's talk about how to motivate the emotional elephant. The elephant wants immediate gratification or resolution, pleasure over pain despite the long term consequences. So in order to motivate the elephant to move in the direction the writer wants to go, we need to tap into a feeling that will motivate the change. That feeling can be something pleasant like peace of mind connection and pride. Or it can be a feeling like fear or guilt. Tapping into our shame and disappointment or relief and delight can help us stay focused on sticking with our commitments even when making different choices would feel much better in the moment. And when things get hot. When big emotions are triggered or temptation is taking hold. The best thing we can do in the moment is to pause. figuring out a way through a hot state when we are square in the middle can be challenging, if not impossible, it is not time to find long term elegant solutions to the situation at hand. Instead, the emotional elephant's best action is nothing. That's all that is needed to get through the next few minutes without doing or saying something regrettable. We need to buy the time until a more regulated version of ourselves is back online and can respond rather than react if we must act. But we cannot think of the right next step, we can ask ourselves what would a calm and a rational person do? aligning our behavior to the identity that we would like to uphold can help us move through challenging circumstances in a way that we can be proud of.
Jacqueline
Chip and Dan Heath offered one last suggestion for staying in integrity and preventing hot state decisions and actions, shaping the path that the rider and the Elephant Walk along. Just as smooth terrain is easier and more desirable to travel down than one overgrown with weeds and rocks. Having the right environment can make it easier or harder to behave in alignment with our integrity. Making changes to your environment in advance can make the right behavior also the easiest one. In fact, our easiest actions are often the ones that we don't have to think about at all. Walking, chewing brushing our teeth, that takes little concentration because it's muscle memory. Building Strong habits can have a similar effect by putting desired behaviors on autopilot, which enable us then to make good decisions instinctually with little thought or involvement from the rider. And finally to shape the path that points the rider and the elephant in the direction of our integrity. rally the herd. social pressure is a great predictor of behavior. We look for clues on how to behave by looking at people around us. And when we are not clear which direction to go. We often follow the herd. So think critically about who is in your herd. surround yourself by people who's going to encourage you to act in Integrity and who won't lead you into tempting or tumultuous situations?
Effy
So this all sounds good in theory. But what does it look like when we're faced with a real life situation? Let's consider a time when we're preparing for a hard conversation with a partner. For a breakdown of how to apply these strategies to stay in integrity with our relationship agreements and avoid cheating. Come on to Patreon. While you'll find a Patreon only mini episode, where Jackie and I go over a common infidelity scenario. For now, let's get ready to have a tough conversation with a partner.
Jacqueline
To say you need to have a difficult discussion, and you're trying to avoid it escalating into an argument and causing disconnection and hurt or worse yet, replicating the kind of passive aggressive or outright aggressive exchanges that you observed with your parents. Maybe you're frustrated about how much responsibility your partner's taking on in the household. Maybe they want to share their concern about spending and money management. These situations can feel like a direct elevator to our hot state, resulting in defensive anger fueled words and regretful proclamations. So, start with remembering that you have navigated through difficult conversations without them escalating into arguments. You've thought through what you've wanted to say in the past and communicated it calmly and clearly. You've listened empathetically and received what your partner's had to say. So think about what were the conditions that supported that experience. Maybe the successful conversation happened after breakfast on a Saturday, when you were fed and rested without the rush and pressure of work or household task. Maybe you had the conversation while you were taking a walk in the park, rather than in your living room, giving the right amount of distraction so that tension didn't build ground yourself in the reality that you can and we'll get through this tough conversation. And then decide what you're trying to create. Instead of trying to avoid making the other person mad or sad or upset. Can you point towards something towards creating shared understanding deeper trust? Collaboration? What does that conversation look and sound like? Can you visualize it? If so, now you have a destination point. All that's left to make sure that your writer is primed and ready to plot the course is determined the behaviors that you can put in place that will keep you on path. Can you agree that there will be no raised voices, or that you're going to take a break every 20 minutes or so where that you'll start with a hug and pause and get water when things get hot. If you want to take it to the next level. Talk about this with your partner in advance and write it all down. Grab a piece of paper or a whiteboard marker and write down what do we want to talk about, in this case, money or household responsibilities? What is our vision for this conversation the results, it could be that you want to have a conversation rooted in respect and care where each person shows up prepared to listen and be empathetic resulting in everyone feeling heard, respected, motivated to work together on a solution, and then write down what big emotions do we need to be mindful of. That could be feelings like resentment or judgment, fear or anger. In addition to ensuring that you and your partner partners are on the same page. By naming and writing it down in advance, you could preemptively diffuse some of those big feelings because now you're more aware of them. This can also serve as a visual reminder, when your prefrontal cortex goes offline, severing access to your goals and desires for the conversation.
Effy
The rider is ready for the hard conversation. Let's work on the elephant. Your elephant is motivated by strong feelings. So when you're faced with a feeling like anger or resentment in the midst of an argument, the key is to find another strong emotion for your elephant to focus on. That may be fear that if you say something hurtful, it could damage the relationship beyond repair. It could be shame at the memory of something you said in the past argument that still haunts you. It could be deep love for the other person and a desire not to sever the connection. Whatever it may be, find a feeling that can override your anger or resentment or defensiveness. In the moment to give you a pause before you can react from a place of negative emotion. Then stay paused. Remember, sometimes the best thing to do in a hot state is nothing at all. let your partner know that you need a break in order to return to the conversation with a comma clear ahead. Excuse yourself to get a drink of water or go to the bathroom. Give yourself a minute to regulate until your rational rider can get back on the elephant. Also remind yourself of the kind of person you want to be when in the midst of a hot conversation. Look at the words on the document or the whiteboard list that you and your partner created in advance. And when you feel yourself heating up, look at the visual reminders and ask yourself what would an empathetic person say right now? What would a good listener do?
Jacqueline
Lastly, by shaping the path, you can tweak the environment to support the desire to maintain In common tensions get high. Sometimes walking to get ice cream or a big treat while having a difficult conversation can allow for natural break and a positive activity in the middle of a tough conversation to help everyone stay calm and engage while promoting collaboration mutuality. Everything that needs to be said can likely be said in the first 20 minutes. After that you're just repeating yourself or defending yourself. So can you tweak your environment by setting an alarm on your phone or programming your smart lights to turn off after 20 minutes to notify you when it's time to pause and take a breath.
Effy
Regulating yourself when in a hot state is not easy. It takes practice. Meditation is like the gym for this emotional muscle. Having a simple practice of connecting to your breath can get you started. Also, familiarizing yourself with your elephant and your rider through cultivating self awareness can also encourage them to work in harmony. Finally, rally the herd. Change the noise around you by surrounding yourself with friends who encourage healthy resolution over drama, follow people on social media who share strategies and stories of healthy conflict resolution, consume podcasts like this one, and tap into the communities that share stories and strategies from folks who've been through tough conversations before and have made it through to the other side stronger and more connected than before.
Jacqueline
So now we know why we step out of integrity and do things that were later shocked and embarrassed about. Nor to avoid and navigate through that hot state. We're invited to get clear on what we want and the behaviors that are getting us there. Connect with a motivating feeling that will move us in the right direction, make the right decisions easier than making the wrong ones, and surround ourselves with messages and people who will support us and hold us accountable.
Effy
We should note of course, that this is not a foolproof plan that will result in no emotional behavior for the rest of your life. That is not possible, I'm afraid, but it will reduce the number of times you engage in reactionary behavior. As your muscles were directing the rider, motivating the elephant and shaping the bath bills, you will engage in less reactionary behavior, and you are more likely to remain integrity along the way.
Jacqueline
If you want to hear Fe and I talk through this strategy in more detail about avoiding and navigating through infidelity, then come on to Patreon where you can find not only that mini episode, but other behind the scenes and extras that we have just for Patreon members. If you have questions or strategies that you want to share, come on to our Facebook group and connect with other foxy listeners. Join us on Instagram and come to our website where you can find blog posts, reading lists, past episodes and a lot more all at we are curious foxes. And let us know that you're listening first, by saving following and sharing this podcast so that we can change the noise and give folks more access to this information. And by reaching out to us. You can send us a comment or story or question or send us a voice memo to listening at we're curious foxes.com Or you can record a question for the show and call us at 201-870-0063
Effy
This episode is produced and edited by Nina Pollack, who always steers us and this podcast in the right direction. Our intro music is composed by dev Saha we are so grateful for that work, and we're grateful to you for listening. As always stay curious friends.
Jacqueline
I have the energy chips as I didn't know that I talked about my death for the last 45 minutes
Effy
IT'S TRUE GOD New York New York. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aim to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious and curious, curious, curious. Stay curious.
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