Ep 116: The Same Argument a Million Different Ways

Art by @martina.francone

Even though it sounds different why does it feel like we are having the same fight with our partners over and over again? What does it take to change the patterns we fall into when we are amidst an argument? What are some of the common mistakes that lock us into seemingly irreconcilable discourse? 

This week Effy and Jacqueline do a coaching session to address the argument patterns Jackie and her partner find themselves in over and over again. After a long text exchange in the middle of the night after one of those arguments, Effy and Jacqueline decide to unpack how Jackie and her partner fight in a recorded coaching session in the hopes that they can bring insight to everyone stuck in their own argument patterns. 

To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla on Instagram.

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TRANSCRIPT:

Effy

You can make suggestions, you can make requests, you can plead, you can do all that kind of stuff. Sure. But the only true thing that you can change is your moves in this in this chess game of an argument.

Jacqueline

Yeah, right. Oh, you're right. You're right. Yes. Okay.

Effy

Welcome to the curious Fox podcast, for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.

Jacqueline

And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today we're talking about why we have the same arguments with our partners over and over again, different topic, same fight.

Effy

Yep, the same argument a million different ways. I see this in my practice all the time. Even those folks who are arguing constantly, from dawn till dusk, there are mostly arguing about really three maximum of five points of tension over and over again, in different contexts. And here's the kicker. Sometimes the context sounds so far removed from the point of tension, that it can feel impossible to uncover the real argument, we end up chasing our tails and end up hurt, exhausted, stuck, and disheartened.

Jacqueline

In order to explore this topic, we are actually going to use a case study, me.

Effy

The best case study.

Jacqueline

Yeah, So picture this, it is 2am. On Friday night, I am in my kitchen, angry dancing, and texting Effie about a recent argument with my partner. The argument started over something that's wildly ridiculous, not even worth mentioning. But it soon took familiar shape resembling every argument that we ever had. And we don't argue much my partner and I don't argue a lot. But when we do, it follows the exact same script. And so over the years, we have both been working on ourselves and our relationship and have been able to shorten the post argument tension from a few days to a few hours. But we both know that we can do better. And so yeah, so it's 2am there I sat dissecting the pattern in my head, creating a flowchart. Yeah, the argument

because it needs a roadshow not understanding the context. Yes. Because I you know, again, I'm a change strategist. So I was like, I gotta, I gotta break the pattern, I got to figure out how to break the pattern.

Effy

Know exactly. I mean, I, you know, it was very Jacqueline Missler. I remember when you come to sessions, when we first working started working together, that you would come with a flip chart paper and colored colored sheets, and everything was like lay down in groups, and in an effort to understand it all. And this was just another one of those I got, I got pictures of flowcharts of what happens who says what the when, whom and who feels what and says what? And I was like, Yeah, we're doing about it.

Jacqueline

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, some of you may not know this. But Effie and I started off in that way. She was my Relationship Coach several years ago, when my wife and I were trying to heal from infidelity, and learn how to design our open relationship that was built on transparency and trust. And so today, we're going to try something different. I am going to talk about my relationship argument pattern. And Effie is going to give me a different perspective and an effort to disrupt that pattern. This is either going to be great or big mistake.

Effy

Fine,

Jacqueline

all right. I'm ready fe. Okay, let's change this thing.

Effy

Let's make a change. Let's make it change. Well, first of all, okay, let me just start with this. First of all, the fact that you're taking interest in this, the fact that you're doing your work on this, the fact that you have made a flowchart on this, and that you don't want it to carry on is all huge bonuses, and a huge testament to your willingness to work this, work this out and your dedication to this relationship. I just want to put that out there to get you started. Thank

Jacqueline

you very much.

Effy

Thank you. So I think like that

Jacqueline

being said, though, I can see the positivity coming from it and then get into the meat

Effy

of that because I think I think there's a lesson to be learned before we even get into it. There's a lesson to be learned about how we are the actors within our relationships and it is up to us to make a difference if that's what we want for our relationships and To do that, we need to bring awareness to what's going on, we need to understand what's going on in an effort to if we have any chance of of making a change, if that's what we want to do. So the fact that you've done this is half the battle. And that's like double bonus points for you. Thank you now. Now let's get to the meat of it.

Jacqueline

So Okay, should I start with the pattern? Let's start there.

Effy

How do you feel about talking about the the actual irrelevant? argument? The reason I say that is because it'd be good way to transition like, Oh, like this, this is this looks like this, isn't this? Okay? You want to do that?

Jacqueline

Oh, you're seeing my reluctant face. It's just so silly. So I'm just going to preface it that way.

Effy

That's what makes it so precious, because they, it sounds so silly yet is going to be so rich with information.

Jacqueline

All right. So I'm in the bathroom, I just come out of the shower and asked my partner to put lotion on me and I have music on like, I'm listening to music, loud. And so she comes in and she says, Can we lower this though, and she picks up my phone and then lowers the volume. And that really annoyed me because I was like, you could have just asked me to lower the volume. And I could have done it myself. I don't know why you are taking control of my phone and lowering it without actually hearing my response first. And that's what started, it was just that. And so what ends up happening, and this is, you know, this is what happened. But this is also reflective of the pattern that happens is that something gets done or said, that leads me to feel disrespected in some way. And I then name that. And in my observation, she's not here to tell her side of it, it feels like she reacts. And feels, reacts to me naming something as if I'm blaming her or trying to shame her. So she acts from that place of shame and gets defensive, and starts giving, explaining why I hear her defensiveness as her giving me excuses, thus dismissing my feelings. So then I react in a bigger way in like, alright, well, you can't dismiss this. And then she responds with like, whoa, that's your, that's a little big. And now anybody who tells me I'm too much of anything, you know, that doesn't work. So then I shut down, then she shuts down. And so that that's the pattern, something is said and done. And this is true, by the way, not just in this relationship. This is true in my marriage with with my ex husband, frankly, that pattern and we'll talk about this a little bit more when we do an episode about ADHD and, and all of the pieces that pull out in there, but this pattern of something happens that makes me feel wronged, disrespected, dismissed unseen. I name it, the other person gets defensive. I hear their defensive as excuses. I then feel unheard I react. They say that my reactions too big. I shut down, they shut down. And there we go. Curtain and see.

Effy

Okay, okay. All right. Sure.

Jacqueline

And let me also note that I've crafted many ways in which this could be resolved.

Effy

Right. I was gonna say, How would you like, how would you prefer it went?

Jacqueline

That they don't do the thing that makes me annoyed. That's how like that, honestly, what's happened is I've said like, if you just don't do that thing, well, then we wouldn't argue like, this is all happening because of that moment. Like if you could just not do anything that makes me annoyed then. Wait.

Effy

Okay. And how does that go?

Jacqueline

No, no. Not not very well. Not very well. And I should clear it's not necessarily annoyed. It's, it's like, yeah, again, it feels slighted somehow. And there's, there's many variations of that it could feel like I am having to take on more responsibility, or again being dismissed or being disrespected, but there's something I translate their statement or behavior in some way, that then makes me feel immediately triggered, and then I name it,

Effy

and how do you name it?

Jacqueline

First, my body names it by like, stiffening up and like, making a face I'm sure and like, you know, my energy shifts right away, which is like, I have an attitude now energy. And either the person will be like, what happened? Like, what's wrong? Or you know, there'll be a few minutes of silence and I'm like, Well, why did you know why did you say that? Or why did you do that? Or I didn't like that. Or, and I just say the thing like I say, hey, this just happened and it doesn't feel good.

Effy

Even though we're skipping would seem to be skipping over this gliding over this point. Anything the way you name it. I think it sounds so innocent when you say I name it and then they get away. Right? I think the way you name it, not you but the way that we name our hurts, obviously has an impact. Yes, right. So like, why did you do that is one way of doing it? Another way of beaming is like, when I noticed this nonviolent communication style stylee, you know, when I know when you grab my phone and turn the music down without asking me, I feel, right, which is going to have a much more of a different impact than something like, why would you do that? Right. Right one is going to trigger potential defensiveness and the other one's going to trigger potentially understanding collaboration, like the thing that you want to try to get.

Jacqueline

To know Yeah, so yeah, let me start with Yes, I agree. Yes, I should frame it. And I agree, and we'll work on that. And I think because I've tried very in depth over the, over the many, many years of my adult relationships have tried many ways of naming it. And I think it's, you know, folks that I'm connected to, like, we get it I find kind of patterns of people to be with, often no matter how I name it, respond from a place of again, feeling defensive. And I stay in that moment again, so for now, we're gonna get into all of it. So at first I say, if you didn't do it at all, we wouldn't be having an argument. The second place in which I think that they could end it quicker, is once I say, Hey, I didn't like that if they just were like, Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean that. And I'm like, Oh, okay. It's okay. So I say yes. If you can just like apologize real quick. If you're like, Oh, that wasn't my intention. I'm sorry about that. And then I say, oh, okay, then let's keep going. Let's everything is fine. That's at least what I think is gonna happen in my head. I don't know if that's really gonna happen. But in my head, that's what it looks like. Then when they're like, Well, I didn't mean that for this. I meant that. I'm like, No, I don't want to hear any of those things. I just want to hear your feelings are valid. I apologize for triggering you. Let's keep going with her day.

Effy

Sure, I think that would be ideal, right? That will be amazing for just like, had people around this, they were constantly validating our feelings and like, not just like being like putting their own feelings to one side and be like, Oh, let me just validate your feelings. You validate their feelings, right? I think so. Yes. Right? Wouldn't it be amazing? Thank you, I love all of them. And I think, let me cut to the, to the end of this conversation, let's just drop it here. And then we'll like, go keep going back to the history. Okay, if you want a different outcome, I would say it's futile, to expect the other person to do something differently. Because you just don't have any control over that. Right? You just don't none of us do. None of us has any control over the other person. We can make requests. So we can explain, we can do all the things we can put reminders, you know, even if they were working on all these things themselves, right? If they were like, I'm gonna learn all my triggers, I'm gonna find strategies, you know, to to regulate myself, when I'm triggered, I'm going to be conscious about validating my partner's, like, even if they were doing all that work, you just cannot guarantee that they're going to not that you cannot you can't rely if you want change, you can't rely on the other person to change for the change that you want. You kind of have to be the change that you want to see, you know?

Jacqueline

Yes, yes. Yes. And all right. So let me tell you where my so of course, I agree with you. That makes complete sense. Yes, that is true and right and valid. Period. Next pair,

Effy

thank you for validating my feelings. shouldn't be like this. I'm glad I have you in my life that's validating.

Jacqueline

So the reason why I think I don't do that, or why I feel resistant to it, like in my body I'm like, is that I feel like I do a lot of work. A lot of emotional work, a lot of you know, work in the what's the word, a lot of work in making sure that our our household, our relationship, our emotions are all taken care of. We did an episode about relationship math, at some point, and I talked about how it for a long time, I felt like I was doing 70% The other person was doing 30. And then I realized what they were contributing was different than what I was contributing. So it was actually shared because they were giving things that I couldn't. So I named that to say, I know this in my wise mind. In the moment, I feel like I have done the right thing so many times that I let that my if we're gonna go back to episode of the elephant and the rider that we just did, my writer is tired. So the person who like is in charge of restraint feels tired from all of this restraint that I've shown to show up as gracious and kind and loving and all the things in relationship that in that moment. I'm like, no more for you. No more gray. I'm too tired for grace. Now we just deal with my feelings.

Effy

Mm. I think that's what happens. So I think if you're tired from, like, if you're in a point, if you're tired in a way that you're describing, it makes me wonder if you're actually like, processing, regulating moving through your feelings, or if you are squishing, suppressing, taming, directing your feelings in a way that that is not actually processing. They're kind of like hanging in that and then eventually they cause the the fatigue that you're talking about, which will then eventually, like, gets you to not explode. That's a big word. But to get into these, these tips, right? So I would actually go back and see all the work that you're doing to be gracious, and all those kinds of things like, how are you doing that work, because when I hear, when I hear you say that I hear a very, very vague tone of resentment that's underneath it, like I'm doing all this work for this relationship, versus I'm doing all this work for myself, because I want to be the, because when you do it when you not you but when anybody does the work for some other reason. It's just not sustainable right over at some point, you're going to want payback, you're gonna want reciprocation, of reciprocity, you're gonna want reciprocity. So I think what you might be experiencing is you're doing work that is not necessarily like working with the emotions and regulating yourself and developing skills and tools and mental muscles and emotional muscles to like, work through all that stuff. But you're kind of forcing, you're forcing, shaping, suppressing, like pushing the one side, you kind of like, woman handling, like the feelings. And then one day, you're too tired to do that. Because the efforts as required to do that, versus developing muscles and mental and emotional muscles to work through the feelings that isn't going to require brute force. Does that make sense?

Jacqueline

Yes. And I think as I said it out loud, I realized that I think that's just a story in my head, I don't actually think that I think that I do. So with this is now going to conflict it even more, it's going to it's like delicious material for your coaching mind. I think that's true in my relationship with my daughter. So I think as a parent, there are many times where I have to change my tone, show up, you know, make something more fun and exciting for her to be engaged in it. And when I feel like she hasn't, she can't do some of the minimal things that she's asked after I create this like home and this environment and this experience that then that changes me I feel really frustrated. I don't actually know as you're I'm saying it out loud. I think that's true in my relationship. I think instead what it is it feels like, I've earned the right to be respected, or I've earned the right to be heard. And I don't know why that's not showing up in this moment.

Effy

Right. I think that's a really good point. It's like, what, first of all, are you disrespected? Is this true? Right? That's a it's like a CBT question. Like, is this true? Are you really just disrespected in that moment? Is that what said and what's being done? Truly disrespectful, like, okay, that's actually that's not, not not not disrespectful. But is it really done with the intention of disrespecting?

Jacqueline

No, I don't think so. Because two days later, I was at a gymnastics event with my daughter and my ex husband. And at some point, he was trying to listen to a video that I sent him and couldn't. And so I was like, No, you have to put the volume up. And so I put the volume up on his phone. And then immediately, oh, I'm sorry for touching your phone and realized that I had just done the same thing.

Effy

Yeah. See, I would say, I feel like there is a trigger there. Right? Something happens. And it's not in your wise mind. I think when you reflect on it in your wise mind, that's why you even said this argument. So silly, right? And your wise mind, you're sort of recognizing that it's silly, and I'm just using your words, your feelings and reactions are valid, of course, I think you you're labeling it as silly, because in your wise mind, you're like, that's not disrespectful. That's just like somebody's doing something. And I think there is a part of you that feels disrespected, right? Yes. Which is the part that we want to validate because that part is real. And that part does exist inside of you. And that part does get activated. And that part is feels disrespected?

Jacqueline

Yes, yes. And I think, of course, in my analysis, and my flowchart, this is part of my reasoning. I think this all goes back to how we grew up. I think, in my particular household, there was a lot of tension. And there were things that were said and done that felt that did not feel kind and I felt and I'm the oldest of three, so I absorbed a lot of it in order to protect them, and went toe to toe with my parents, my father specifically on things and so I am constantly scanning for something to be wrong. That's something that I've worked a lot about in therapy. It makes me incredibly good at what I do. Hi. So professionally, I excel because I can scan and figure out what the problem is and find a solution. Personally, though, I have to continue to struggle with turning that off. And so I think I'm cents more sensitive to what somebody is going to say or do something. That is mean, because that is what I experienced. And then, you know, I think in my partner's home growing up, there was just a lot of blaming of things. And so I'm sure that her sensitivity is around that is about being blamed for something that's not her intention. And so, if we're just like, we're hitting each other exactly in the point where it hurts, which is why I think, of course, we continue to do it over and over again.

Effy

Sure, I think the part of you that feels disrespected triggers the part of her that feels blame. And I think one of the best things that you can do is to start to separate away from that part and recognize that part and not not to over identify with it right to sort of allow yourself the space to say, oh, there's a part of me that feels disrespected, it even bring it up in in language. So if you want to name it, and I think naming is really, really powerful, we know that there's a difference between saying, even if you're naming in the most neutral way, with your best nonviolent communication, syntax, and like, when I see you grab my phone and change the volume, I feel disrespected, there's still room in there for the other person to feel defensive, right? Because you're because there's love and connection between you two, right? I think there is an opportunity also there to say, Oh, look at that, when you grabbed my phone, there was a part of me that really felt disrespected. Right. And once you do that, there is potentially an opportunity to collaborate on understanding that part of yourself, which I think is the part that wants also to be seen, right? I think if you over identify with it, it's very difficult to turn towards that part. And try to sort of sort of work with it in any way, right? Because now you have essentially three elements in the conversation, there's you and your wise mind, who just noticed that part of you got got into this disrespected space? Because in that wise mind, if you can stay with that wise mind, what you also have access to is that you're not disrespected like your partner, Alexis doesn't respect you. That's just not the dynamics of your relationship. Correct? Yes. Correct. Yes. So if you can kind of acknowledge that you want to acknowledge the park, you also don't want to dismiss it and be like, Oh, no, that wasn't, that wasn't disrespectful, right? That's not the it's not good advice either. Is Eisley with your wise mind, notice a name that part of you that feels disrespected. And then when you present it that way, there is an opportunity for the two of you to turn towards the part that feel disrespected, and and see if you can choose, right. And you can, you know, I think we even you know, we were texting back and forth. I even said that to you. It's like, can you set it up so that you say something along the lines of, hey, wow, when that just happened, I noticed that there's a part of me that just felt really disrespected, that this respected? Can you help me sue that part? Which is it, which is an invitation, that's very different than what's what's showing up right now? Right? You still gonna get to be seen, you still gonna get the thing to resolve itself? Right? You're not gonna dismiss it, you know, but the invitation is different. The invitation is a collaboration to deal with a part of you that's being triggered from an adult to adults. Right. So chances are, there is a chance there that you might not trigger the other person's part. If you can position the conversation in that way. Does that make sense?

Jacqueline

Yeah, it does. It does.

Effy

It doesn't satisfy me.

Jacqueline

No, no, it does. That's more I'm contemplating. I'm connecting dots, because it makes me think of the conversation that we had with Thomas Whitfield, about relationship therapy for him specifically within relationship and how it's easier to go to anger than it is vulnerability, that anger is a more empowering emotion than his vulnerability. So as you're sharing that, that's what I'm thinking is that my my default has been to get upset, which is actually much less vulnerable than saying, ouch, some some part of me just felt a little a little, you know, hurt. And can you help me sue that? Yeah. I think I can do that. So this is again, this is a case in point around how my brain works. So immediately, I think I can do that, then I think, but what if that doesn't work, and they're still a bad reaction, then I'm gonna have a bad reaction to their reaction. And then I'm gonna say didn't work, even though I know that's not true. So I'm just naming the story that's in my head. I know this not to be true, but this is immediately the thought pattern that happens for me.

Effy

Sure. And none of these things have any guarantee He's attached to them. Right. So you know, you might trigger it might just repeat the pattern. But I think until you change something, you know, this changes is where you live, right? It comes from incremental moves. And yes, these are areas where you can like, try to do something different and see if it has a bigger impact. Yes, yeah. So yes, it might not work. Absolutely. You're right. And you're gonna have to change something. Right. And the only thing that you can surely change is your moves. Right? You can't change. Alexis moves. Yes. You can make suggestions. You can make requests, you can plead you can do all that kind of stuff. Sure. But the only true thing that you can change is your moves in this in this chess game of an argument. Yeah,

Jacqueline

right. Oh, you're right. You're right. Yes. Okay. So, lesson number one that I'm writing down is my head. When I feel triggered, to be enough, in my mind, why, why is mine to say this is not reflective of how I'm treated in this relationship, this moment in this action is not reflected. So this may not be their intention. And so just name it say, I part of me felt X right now. Can we work together to suit that part of me?

Effy

Okay, yes, I would say one half a step half a step back from that is to get into that habit of separating yourself from the pot, which actually is kind of hard, and it takes mental gymnastics, it took me years to figure this out. It's a part of, like a bunch of modalities of of therapy that works with this, right? Essentially, it's like parts work ifs, it's inner child work, right? The part of you that is feeling disrespected, because you rightly identified goes back to the household that you grew up in, is, as a young part of you that got stuck in that moment and is living in a loop. Right? That's the way to think about it. It's not really, the ever evolving, growing wise learning curious adults wise mind that you and I are talking right now, the part of you that gets that, that feels that disrespect, because it feels so familiar, right? You're like, Oh, this feels really familiar I grew up with this is because it's that that child, part of you that is, the way that I imagined it that really helps me is that that part of you stuck in a time capsule, and is has a short runtime. So there's just looping, it's looping, and looping and looping. And then it gets when it gets triggered. It just like loops. Right? And that is why that's why it's the same argument, different contexts, right? Because that part of you that's in a capsule has no other context. It's just an in loop in an emotional move. So you put that emotional loop in an argument, you put that religion in arguing with your partner, you put that emotional loop with an argument with your daughter, you put that loop in argument with the guy on the subway, right, it's not going to change because that that time capsule is just what it is. Because it's in the past. And it's, it's the younger part of you that experienced that and just got stuck there. So in that way, identify those parts. And for you like this, this respected part is a significant part because you deal with it often enough, right? I think it's it's kind of doing that work to say, okay, there is this part of me that was her back when for whatever reason, and you already have that story, which is great. And she becomes activated and it's the it's language is everything we know this right? To really work with your language to really talked about her in the third person. Super helpful. Right? So rather than a part of me, she is filming this, right, she is activated, she saw the phone and she felt disrespected. She wants to be seen right now. Right? Which sounds kind of kooky. But it really does help because it helps it creates that spaciousness. And that spaciousness allows access to your wise mind. So that you can you can actually kind of turn towards that part, the younger part and see what what she needs to soothe. Hmm. Does that make sense?

Jacqueline

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think that the imagery of the loop is really helpful. Because I think having that in my mind now will allow me in those moments to remember like, oop, I just press play on the loop. Like, press pause, or stop right now because that loop is about to Yeah, yeah. Okay, so that's incredibly helpful. Let me ask you now, can we go through other parts of the pattern? Because I want to sort of assume that in the moment I forget about the loop and I don't do that I don't say the thing I don't ask for soothing I just like say that made me mad. What ends up happening 99.9% of the time in my arguments with my partner is we end up actually arguing about the argument to the point where at some point you know, often there's like a forgetting of like she forget she's like, what, what is the thing And then my brain is like, well, let me tell you exactly I'm going to tell you the script I said, then you said then as if I have like an internal stenographer, that's just like following me around and capturing everything. And so I then I'm having actually two arguments. I'm arguing about the thing that was started it and I'm arguing about how we're arguing. And then that becomes confusing, because then she's like, wait, what, what, what is the thing and I'm like both of the things, this one, and then this one. Know them all. And often, the feedback that I've heard from her and from others, other partnerships, is that there's clearly a script in my mind that they're supposed to be following. And when they go off script, that I get annoyed. And that is not untrue. Because I think in my head, I think this easily could be solved with X, like you just did, x, this could all be over. And normally X is validating my feelings and apologizing in the tone, tone that feels genuine. And so when that does happen, even when there's an apology, but there's an A, like an apology, that sounds like a begrudging apology. I'm like, I do not accept this. I do not apologize, apology, come back again, when it's when their tone is different.

Effy

Again, later,

Jacqueline

exactly. And so like, I'm aware of the fact that I like removing their humanity as a person and not a character in my internal play, by forcing them into this particular script and trying to control the situation. So that resolution only looks like that. So I know that, but I keep doing that.

Effy

Yeah. I mean, it makes sense, right? It's still a part of the loop. That would be my guess the reason why you're so attached to a script is because you're, it's that part of you that's looping and that that loop has a script, right? She feels defensive, and that she feels disrespected, and she has a particular need for that to go away. And that feels something's very particular, because she's stuck in it, she doesn't know any better. Right? So I think, I mean, in an ideal world, what you would do is, before you even get to the next like, just to recognize, I see shift in people, when they're able to just separate that first step at any point when they're able to separate from that part, even for a second, and be able to use like a third person pronoun for for that part, there's a shift immediately. First and foremost, it's kind of like weird sorcery, magic thing that happens, like as soon as you're able to go, she or he or whatever your preferred pronouns that for that part, there is space. And then paradigm shifts, like there's a different point of view immediately. You know that that hasn't happened for you, because you you remain in this window, what you're saying is that you're still stuck in the script, right? So you haven't quite separated yourself from that part. Because the minute that you are able to separate that yourself from that part, your wise mind from that part, now you have multiple options, or you can find multiple options of how to sue that part, rather than be hijacked by that part and only have the one particular thing that she wants, that will only resolve the situation. Right? So what does that look like? What do you mean?

Jacqueline

So for example, you said that in the moment when something happens to me, that's something that I can do is say, there's a part of me that felt disrespected. She's feeling triggered on guard right now. Can you help me see that part? Is there? Ironically, is there a script? Is there something that I could do as an alternative to having kind of trying to guide the conversation in a very particular way?

Effy

I mean, so then we can have this conversation, it goes like this, I think she needs whatever she needs, right? So oh, look, there's a part of me that is feeling disrespected. And the idea is not the trick this right, this, this has been an authentic experience. And like, it's not to feed this. I'm not feeding you or anybody else's script, right?

Jacqueline

Because I could very easily be like, exactly my little girl is feeling like she needs an authentic apology right now. She needs to know everything.

Effy

saw that one coming a mile away, Jacqueline. So this is not to be hacked to people is not this needs to be a genuine experience. You need to feel this in your bones. Like that's how it will work. You can go through the rhetoric and you will sound great, and you will get gold star. But you need to feel this experience in your bones in the fiber of your being for it to actually take any kind of effect, right? Because we're trying to do many things. We're trying to rewrite some code. We're trying to work with our nervous system. We're trying to find a solution. We want to interrupt the patent. Like we're trying to do so many things. And if you just go with the surface script, it's not going to do any of that thing. Yeah. So you really need to find it in your bones. Feel it in your God. It really has to be integrity. You did. So when you say there's a part of me that feels disrespected, you really need to feel that part separate from you. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And fake it till you make it as okay. Right. I think the important thing is that this really starts to take effect when you do actually separate. It doesn't have to be like, it's a very slight experience with a big impact, if that makes sense.

Jacqueline

Yes, no, that totally makes sense. And I think as we're talking, because the second pattern also is reflective of the first which is, they're doing something that I am translating to be a wrong towards me that they are intentionally either evading or disrespecting, or ignoring or any of those things. And I think two things I need to keep in mind number one, again, that is not reflective of how I'm treated in my relationship. So that one moment can't now redefine and be like, Well, clearly, she thinks because she doesn't write. The second is actually a lot of the learning and work I've done around understanding ADHD because my ex husband, my partner, my daughter, you all important. So many poor people in my life have ADHD. I'm on the way, other end of the spectrum. So for example, within arguments, I find that in those three relationships that I named when the middle of an argument, the other person seems to be shut down, more, maybe more confused, not able to track the conversation in the same way, right, need something different. I become like a litigator, like again, my stenographer comes out. And I'm like, this then did like, I become the clearest in the midst of conflict. And I get frustrated when someone else's brain isn't moving as quickly as mine. In those moments, because I'm like, we can get to resolution really quick. If we just go through this thing's like doo doo doo doo. And it could be over. I've learned and I'm learning to try to recognize their brains work different, right, we need to slow down, we need to have some space. Because often is the experience almost every single time as was true with my father, there would be a blow up, there would be something there'd be frustration, people would cool down and the other person would come back and say, Hey, I'm in a different place. Now. I recognize what happened. Here's my part, here's your part, like that conversation always happens. It just happens later than I want it to and I become a patient.

Effy

What would it take for you to be more patient?

Jacqueline

I mean, I think it's just knowing it, knowing that that's true. So, you know, I'll give you another example, in understanding more about ADHD in my work with my daughter, I understand that emotional regulation is something that's challenging for her. So when she pivots very quickly from being, you know, in a calm state to being really angry for a while that I mean, it still is hard, but now I'm like, Oh, I know what's happening right now. Okay, so like, you need some space. I'm gonna, like, you know, sneak a granola bar into your room. So you can get something to eat. Like I like I have a sense of what needs to happen. Because as we talked about in the writer and elephant episode, her elephant is in control. And so there's nothing to do now until the elephant calms down and the rider can climb back on. So often, I'm trying to have a conversation with someone in their rational mind, and they are not there. But frankly, what is also true is I am not in my rational mind, it looks like I am I was just

Unknown Speaker

gonna say are you Yeah.

Jacqueline

Yeah, right. Right. So neither it so it's like elephants talking to elephants. Yeah, my, my elephant knows how to mimic a writer like my elephant knows how to talk and look like a writer. So I convinced myself that I am in my, my wife, right. And then the next part of the pattern is, is we do like, take space from each other. And I use that space to analyze to figure out what happened to figure out the solution so that I can come back and be like, I figured it out. This is what we need to do. Next time, I'll do this and you do this, and it feels like my writer is creating a plan for us to follow.

Effy

Exactly. I think what sounds rational is actually a fight response, that judgemental litigious part of you is a part of you. It's not it's not a rational, integrated, wise mind, adult self. Doesn't sound like it to me, just from from where I'm standing. It might be like that to you in the moment. I think you're hijacked. Because our adult minds have broader resources, especially people like you and me who like do this as a life's passion, right? We want to understand human psychology. We want to be compassionate, good human beings and all the things, all the work that we do that does not align with what you're saying to me, right? So in that moment, it doesn't sound like you're in your adult mind. It sounds like you're triggered in that moment. You're in a kind of fight response. And that part of you that shows up in that fight response is hyper vigilant and litigious and judgmental, and, you know, all those things. That sounds like a fight response. To me, that just sounds like it. Do you know what it sounds like? It sounds like when kids are trying to be grownups. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like they can pretend. Or you see those like Tic TOCs, or Instagram meals of parents like with these, like really smart ass kids that are like seeing very adult things. But you just know, they don't understand what they're saying. They're just mimicking a parent, like a parental grown up, nurse. That's what it sounds like to me when I hear you describe it. And I think that's just another part that you need to get to know. Right? So that part of you that becomes litigious. She has different objectives. And she has different needs. Yeah. And you need to get to know that part of you. And also, like, make that space available. Yeah. as well. Yeah,

Jacqueline

that makes sense to me, I think, I have found that after an argument or negative situation, I revisited over and over, right, so I like analyze it, I break it down, I try to figure it out, I try

Effy

to figure out how to view say she does sorry, she

Jacqueline

Okay, so that she wants to go over it over and over and over again, to understand it to make sense of it. Because I know she wants things to make sense and wants to find the solution. And so she goes ahead and every single time I have a new drawing a new flowchart, a new like, you know, whiteboard, illustration, something that is like, Oh, this is the new revelation I've had, this will change everything. So I do that. And I realized that that's what happens naturally, the only thing that I have found the quiet set noise is music. If I put music on and like dance, and just like physically try to move my body, that's why I call it I say angry dancing is the thing in my house, sometimes my partner is like you need to go angry dance. But that is the only thing that actually quiets that, because if not, even when I go for a walk, or if I do something else, that part of my brain wants to continue to cycle it through over and over and over again.

Effy

Sure, that actually further assures me that it's a positive view, right? Because that part of you quietens down, when you get in your body, which is where our adult child saw, right, in an ideal world, our adult selves or wise minds, or our higher selves, whatever modality that you're talking about, they're all talking about the same thing is the mind that is present and in our body. Like, that's why the mind body connection is so important. So the fact that you're like, The only relief I get is when I get into my body, I'm like, Oh, of course, because now you're back in your adult self and the world doesn't seem like it's going to you know, it's ending, whereas the part of you that is this is just thinks the world is ending. And she just like, you know, she's like fighting for her life or her self expression for her, you know, survival, older things. And when you eventually get back into your body for whatever, you know, in your case, dancing, and solely my my way, too, could be breathing. You know, I just can't I just can't emphasize how breathing is just the way to do it. And because it's too easy than people think it's not going to work. First of all, it's not easy. It's simple, but not easy to take to take 10 Deep breaths is not easy. It's simple. And people confuse with simple and easy. But to actually sit your ass and take 10 breaths, like properly 10 breaths is actually pretty difficult. Yeah, when you do it, though, it's magical. You're like, What sorcery is this? It works. If you can do that. Great. If you can do angry dance in your kitchen, and that's available to you great. Anything that brings you back into your body to the present moment, into your body into your wise mind is going to be where the solutions are, right? The litigation, the flowcharts aren't where the solutions are. And I know that because I got one of your flowcharts. Right.

Jacqueline

Which by the way, not only broke down what happened but broke down three different other options. Other flowcharts of what it could look like if we did it.

Effy

Exactly. And what did those three different options had in common?

Jacqueline

They all started with the other person.

Effy

Exactly, and there lies the problem. Because that's that shows me this comes from Yeah, I triggered ways that comes from a positive view. That is not your adult. Why is mine who understands change inside out? Right? Yeah, yeah. And I think that plus, there is one other thing I think that is different from this. So that I think is let's just park that that is a bit of insight. And the other thing is your change strategist, which means that you go into on the way that you work as a change, change changes. You go into corporations, you organizations, even individuals lives and you help them make what I call radical changes. I like calling it radical pivots when it For quite your work, because I like talking about your work. And what that requires is a lot of change all at the same time to be managed. And in order to change in order to manage that kind of change, you need a constant, and you happen to be constant as the consultant that's coming to do the change. So I think, I also think that in your mind when change is about, which is the work that you do all day, every day, you are the constant in that change. The big differences that those corporations or people or organizations are trying to get through their change, right, right. In this case, you are trying to change your situation. So you can't put yourself as the constant in that you need to put you need to be the one that's changing, right? Imagine when you're working with an organization, you're you're you're advising people, you're they're all changing, they're all making adjustments, like slowly, slowly but surely, right. You're the constant, which is where you want to be because they're the ones that's changing, there's that I mean, this case, you try and change your situation, you can't be the constant.

Jacqueline

Right? That makes sense. That makes sense. Because right, in every in my work, I'm always looking for what is the thing that's happening outside of me, certainly, that can be adjusted, and I'm taking that lens here. I think

Effy

that's right, right, and you're a consultant, which means you get dropped in and you get dropped out, right, you're not really in, you're not in the favor of the thing with and you're trying to apply that knowledge, that practice that you're very good at into your situation, but you need to just like shift your perspective is slightly, because you're not trying to change something that's not a part of you, as you do in your career. You're trying to change something that you're very much a part of. Yeah, which means you have to change as well.

Jacqueline

Yes, that makes sense. I think the other thing that you said that stands out is you said that when I get into my body, and I'm angry dancing, that's actually me getting back in touch with my adult self, which sticks with me, because if I were to think about it on my own, I would look at sitting down thinking about, you know, the what happened and what needs to happen next that feels grown up. And like angry dancing to like, whatever music in the kitchen feels like childish. And it's actually the reverse.

Effy

Yes, yes. And that's what our society tells us. Right? When you when you're sitting you quiet and you're sensible. That's your adult self. We need to move right. Yeah, I know I have ADHD and I'm slightly different skewer this, but But I see this from people who are you, you don't have ADHD, that stillness, like long periods of stillness is not how our bodies are designed, I think long period of stillness eventually makes our minds wander for people who have ADHD quicker, way quicker than your neurotypical folks. But I think that stillness means that we get in our heads and get in our heads, and we get in our heads, and eventually, we just simply feel disembodied. Now we are in a thinking world that is constantly thinking about the past, and the future, and the variables and three different options to the right. And that feels like adult work, because that's what we do in our careers and our work, all that kind of stuff. But it comes from a disembodied place, right to be really present and checked into how you're feeling. That's okay. Work to do that way, right. But if you're dealing with stuff about yourself, you do need to get back into your yourself, because that's where the answers are for you in your relationships. Yeah, that you're in.

Jacqueline

That makes sense. Because what you're talking about being disembodied, that is often that is true for me, when I'm working, either training or, you know, facilitating meeting conversation, it feels like some other part of me takes over. And I'm, I'm incredibly present in that room in that space in that dialogue. And my brain is working really fast making connections summarizing processing. And then I like at the end of the meeting, almost come back to myself. And so you have I recognize that I have a pattern of of of doing that. Question, we started in the beginning, right? Now I need to start with me. I will say I will notice that something has happened for me and name it and say there's a part of me that's feeling x, is there anything that we can do to soothe her, then as the conversation is going and I want to continue to be in it and process it both in the conversation and afterwards, recognize that that's still a part of the loop. And I need to disrupt that by getting into my body. So I got them, the last pieces at the end. So let's say the end of the argument, everyone goes to their separate ways everyone has said all the things both have a desire to reconnect. Right? So I think that actually what frustrates us the most within conflict is we want it to be over to get back to like being close. And, and so when when we're on our separate corners, or someone's taking a walk or whatever, what is the fastest way to get back to connection. Often I'm the barrier to that because I can hold it like that energy that frustrated energy for a long time. So I'm trying to let that go. But I'm trying to think of a hack for that when when with my daughter, whenever she would have a big reaction and her elephant would take over, and then she would calm down and her writer would like climb back on, and she would come back out. There was a mix between shame and embarrassment, feeling apologetic. And this movie does a lot of big feelings for a little kid to come back out and be like, Hey, I noticed what I did. I'm sorry about that, right, like, so we created a little, we had a whole language of fruit at some point. And so she would say the word lime. And if she said lime, it meant all that. So she would at some point like sheepishly come out of her room after this big tantrum of an explosion and just say, lime, and then we would hug and then it was over. Because she was saying, Hey, I recognize I was taken over there. Sorry about the things I said and did, I didn't really mean any of that, like, that's all of that was, I need like a, maybe that's what it is, I need like a lime equivalent for my adult relationships, where like, we can just call truce and be like, oh, man, our kids just got into a fight with each other. Mm, can our adult selves reconnect?

Effy

So a couple of things, I think, I think there's a genius bit of parenting with your daughter. And I think it's important to make a distinction between your relationship with your daughter and your relationship, your adult relationships, there's a difference in responsibility, there's a response, and there's a power dynamic in place, right, there's a whole bunch of different things going on. So at some point, you as the mother is going to have to take the high road, you as the mother is gonna have to let go of the like, you know, all those things. And over that, right, that's just that's just a different structure relationship. Yeah. So and it's okay. It's not okay. It's brilliant. In fact, to have a strategy like that in place, you say lime, you get it, she gets it, it allows her to move through the feelings, to reconnect and all that kind of stuff. That is great parenting, we don't want to parent our partners, we do not want to parent our opponents, we want to deal with these things as adults. Right? So ideally, what I would recommend you do is at every stage, if you notice, I'm going to recommend the same thing, which is to regulate yourself, right, which is what we're talking about, like the part language will allow you to hopefully regulate yourself. Okay, you missed that you did that didn't happen in that place. You moved on to the next stage, you're still you know, triggered, that part is hijacked. Okay? Can we regulate you to get you back into your adult self, then you move? Do you dance, great, you kneel or failed? Next phase, like the argument happened, people are hurt and exhausted, and great. In that place. The the part of you this is the same part of you that's holding on to the argument, right? So can you regulate yourself and then end, right? So along the way, at what point can we catch ourselves and regulate? Right? So line is great for kids? I think for an adult relationship, I think to go back to your adult self, can you move, can you breathe, can you find the adult self then looks at the argument and notices what happens, right becomes aware of what happened, whoa, we just got to triggered like my kid, got in a fight with your kid, right? And then get to a place. When once you do get to that place, and you put things in perspective, now you're an adult and your adult mind, and you understand that part of you that was upset, was upset and did all the things, you will find yourself in a place that is more willing to reconnect if you're still holding off? Right? That means you're still having regulated?

Jacqueline

Hmm, no, that makes sense. Right? Yeah, all of that I think is true. I think that when I'm when I'm also thinking about is when when I do have that desire to reconnect, like, what's the entry point? I think that's similar to like my daughter coming out of the room, sheepishly and being like, Oops, like, I think there's a feeling of that of like, oh, so that was a lot. Mm hmm. Can we go watch a movie now? Like, you know, when that happens in its own organic way, at some point, they'll be silent. And then someone will say, you know, Are you thirsty or like, something will happen to like, indicate and to the other person, like, alright, we can move on now. But I don't know if you have other thoughts or recommendations.

Effy

I think when you regulate it, you just have an adult conversation, hey, that was a lot or hey, that was an argument. I mean, you can you can line it, which is, which is now a verb. You can mime it, you can definitely alignment we I work with clients and we will give names to certain feelings, right? The one key is is this like mixture of, you know, insecurity and jealousy like there's like all the you know, people come up with their name names for their certain feelings that are reoccurring, and it works as a shorthand allows people to reconnect. And I think it definitely it definitely works. You can you can do that. It's great communication. I do feel like there is value in just finding adult words and saying, I feel this I felt I feel that because that's just good for our nervous system to name things. And then also teaching our nervous system that like conflict is okay as long as it's resolution, right? Because conflict is a part of life. It's a part of any relationship. conflict becomes scary. Every when we don't, our nervous system doesn't recognize that there's going to be resolution. Right, that's when you come people who are conflict avoidant or struggle with conflict, or are afraid of conflict because they, in their minds, they can't see through the conflict to a potential resolution. Right. So that's they get stuck in the conflict in the scary, of course, conflict is scary. If we get to a place of like, we just have an argument, and then we actually talk through it and resolve ourselves, we have an argument and resolve without an argument and resolve the conflict resolution, conflict resolution, and doing in a meaningful way where we feel it in our bones will have over time, retrain our nervous system to recognize is a resolution to go with every conflict.

Jacqueline

In this case, when it's a pattern, is there a resolution in between? Or is it though we did that thing again? Like we're going to try again next time? Like, is it is that because they tend to rego over whether or not she should have picked up the phone or not like that? I don't know if there's because most of the arguments start that little like you didn't dry the dishes and now allow now we're not going to talk for the whole day. Like that's it started. So silly. So I don't know about that. Or if it's the resolution comes in just the acknowledgement of you got caught up in our pattern again. Damn. All right. We know what to do. We're going to try it next time. Is that?

Effy

So I think that's like, that's, that's great. Right? That's great. The ninja level is that you recognize it and you take responsibility for your parts. Yes. Yeah, I agree. Yes, correct. Right. That's that's like the ninja level where you go, Oh, my God, we did that patent again. And wow, I was really litigious and pushy. Yeah. And I, I shouldn't have done that. I'm sorry about that. Right. Yeah, that is like the ninja level, because then you're taking responsibility for your part as well. And you're role modeling? Yes. You know, for me, humility is a value that I start to work with. For me, like I in those situations, I, that's where I go, I go to okay, like, what, what is the? If I want to embody humility in this moment, what do I say? What do I do, which is to recognize my humanity, in the moment of what I fucked up and say, I'm sorry, I did those parts and and do that, if you're doing it through humility, you're not doing it as like, now you're gonna go.

Jacqueline

You're right. You're totally right. And I think that that's the word I need to hold on to, because I think what it ends up looking like is a ladder, which is more like being a martyr, like, alright, I'll be the one to do to break, right. And then I do it. And there's a secret expectation of reciprocity. So I've done my part. And now it's exactly and I need to go into it with humility, and just saying my part whether or not the other person has anything to say, or will, whether or not they say anything, yeah.

Effy

Right, you have to be anchored in the fact that you're doing it for yourself, because you in that moment of trying to train your nervous system, that there's conflict resolution, and you can get to the other side gets through the shame and the guilt and the, you know, all the things that are making you and the anger and the frustration, and get through that. And by realizing the humanity of yourself, and taking, you know, taking responsibility for the price that you feel you're responsible for. And you do that for yourself. And if you can get anchored in that, it doesn't really matter if it's reciprocated or not. Because you've done the work, you've done the duty done, you know, the job done, you did the thing for yourself. Amazing if your partner also recognizes that and finds that within themselves. And you know, great, that's bonus points. That is not the aim of the game. That is like icing on the cake. Yeah, right. You need to eat your vegetables. First. I just mixed metaphors. But you know,

Jacqueline

I think that's true, because particularly if I'm the one who's instigating it, not intentionally, right, but essentially, if I like push them on the floor, and then they like, Get up and swing at me, right? This is I'm pretending this is kids now and like a school yard, right? So my kid pushes her kid and then like, she gets up and swings it when I come back. And like, I'm sorry that I pushed you, I shouldn't necessarily be waiting for her to say, well, then I'm sorry that when I got pushed, I swung at you. Because she always wanted me because I pushed her. And so right in the cases where it is my interpretation of a behavior as disrespect and I'm responding negatively in that way, and we're responding with blame, then I think I need to remember that they may not need to give me an apology, because I'm actually the one that started it.

Effy

Yes. And I think it's not really about an apology. It'd be amazing recognition. Maybe

Jacqueline

Yeah, no, you're right.

Effy

Yes, exactly. So I think it's really important and I think sometimes if the ego gets in the way, I also find this this parts but they call the parts approach to say she is triggered is actually is also a way to sort of bite Pass and sidestep the ego. Because the ego ego wants to be right. That's what the ego does, you know. So it's also a way to bypass the ego, right? So you can say, you can say things that feel very true to you, which is, wow, okay, there's a part, you know, the part of me that felt disrespected, really reacted, and I, you know, was whatever you were doing, you know, it was like messages. And I was pushy, and I didn't listen, I was very stuck. You know, my own way. I'm learning to mess it up. But whatever your truth is, I'm not giving you a script. But I think just like finding the truth, like regulating yourself, and then finding the truth statement that helps you resolve and bring resolution to the conflict is going to feel good for you. It's going to feel great for the other person as well. But that's like incremental. You know what I mean? Yes,

Jacqueline

I think that's right. I think that's right. I'm gonna add on even to myself, approach with humility, and don't expect quick resolution, because I also think that that's something that like, once I have brought up the courage to take the first step and say, you know, hey, that was hard. I'm sorry about my part, that if there's not an immediate Oh, good, all right, let's, let's go out to dinner. And let's be, you know, let's everything's back to normal, when there's still tension there, I that can be hard for me, because I'm like, No, but I did the things I did that they shouldn't be over now. And I have to just let let there be space and let it breathe, should not not be triggered. Because sometimes I get really triggered by that reaction based on how I grew up that because it was such a tense environment that I just tense up. So that was part of you gets triggered. Sorry, for that part of me, that part of me gets triggered, based on what her experience was growing up. She when there's tension, she like locks herself up and prepares for whatever is going to come. And so then I think I have a tendency, I can get back into that state and get like retrigger, then the cycle starts over again. And so it's just I'm saying it out loud for myself to not fall back into that pattern if I can help it.

Effy

Yes. And then there is a bit of a hack that I'm learning about right now, that kind of works if it's like queasy. So I'm doing a lot of somatic experiencing, both working myself and like learning about the modality. There is a way to regulate ourselves through physical touch, if it feels safe. So there is an opportunity, I would invite you and whoever's listening was a traders, to just try it out. So if you can get to a place where you're like, Whoa, there's a part of me that feels readyspace disrespected right now, how can I sue the world? Can you help me soother or if there is an opportunity for physical touch with no words, right? It doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be affectionate touch. Though, of course, it's nice when selection touch, but just even just an arm on a shoulder, a palm to palm, something that can just feel just that you feel it's in your on your body, that can that will anchor you into your body, like into Your presence, presence, right? So you might actually it might help you pull you out of that hijacked state. So if you can get as far as if you can just bring your awareness to the fact that you is a part of you that got triggered and is now activated and is running, you know, running wild. If you can ask for touch, that doesn't have to be just a touch that will bring you into a body essentially, it's the same as moving. It's just another way of doing it. And sometimes it might just be hard to start dancing in the middle of an argument. But if you can count upon sometimes in an argument, you don't want to be touched, right? You don't want to be like, I'm one of those people. I'm just like, yeah, get off me. But some sort of a reassurance touch just to get me into my body. That feels neutral. Yeah, might also work. I mean, it does work. It just depends on how you're wired. Right? Yeah. Some people have trauma and being touched will just trigger them again, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. So this is not any kind of prescription. It's an invitation to try to see when you get that place. Can you engage in some sort of physical contact skins skins best, if not all codes? To see if you will? It'll interrupt the pattern, right. So it's a part of the strategy for shooting that part. Can you apply physical touch?

Jacqueline

Yeah, that actually has an interest. I think I would try that in the very beginning. So let's say in this particular case, she comes in, she picks up my phone, she like lowers the value. Maybe in that moment, I realized, like, Oh, something just got triggered, and I can say, Hey, can I have a hug? And then I'm sure you know, unless she legitimately is annoyed about something, we'll be like, Sure. And then she'll give me a hug, and then she can be everything. Okay. And then that's when I can say, there was a part of me that just felt like, yeah, disrespected. But I wanted to make sure that we could soothe her and like, cuz I know that that's not what your intention was. Right. So maybe that's a way that I could, yeah, I can do that. Okay, yes.

Effy

Because I think that will I think because the part of you that is triggered that's your business. Like I said, she's in a loop. She's not here. She's not and she also doesn't have a sense of time, space and context. She's just just in our loop. So if you can, if you can write

Jacqueline

because at three in the morning, she won As they continue to talk about it,

Effy

right, exactly. So if you can get back into your adult self into your adult buddy here, and now the chances are you are going to be able to notice her to deal with her. Or she might even just like, calm down and like settle down. Yeah. Okay.

Jacqueline

Well, thank you. There's a lot of things here for me to think about, I think I'm going to I mean, I'm certainly going to try to apply all these things. And I think we should give an update on Patreon, I think, give me a few weeks. I mean, hopefully, I need more than that. We don't we don't, we can't, we don't really argue that much. But when we do, when next time it happens, I'm going to try the things and then we should go on to Patreon. And I will let you know how I went.

Effy

Yes, this is great. Right? What I would recommend for people who have different stories, right, same dynamics, different stories, I think the steps for them is find that feeling, right? Like when you're triggered, what is the feeling so for Jackie? disrespected, great, because that will then be like, Okay, so this is the part that feels disrespected. Like we need to, we need to, we need to really get that part. And the way to get to that part is through naming the feeling. It also helps to, if you can, it's not available for everyone, it took me ages to figure this out, like where does that sit? Where in your body that feeling sets. Also super helpful. But pretty ninja, it took me a long time. Some people like I was just on my shoulders, I'm like, how do you doing that? But just to be able to name it and say I feel a very specific feeling. Name it and then see if you can ask yourself, Is it true? Like, are you really being disrespected? Are you really being shunned? Are you really being dismissed? Like whatever that part of you is feeling? Check in to see like, is this real? Is this true? Is this true? It's real, because we're experiencing, is it true? And if you're finding the answers, I really like my partner isn't really that disrespectful, or my partner isn't really that dismissive. Then you can say, Okay, so there's a part of me that feels right. And if you can get that language, again, not easy, separate part, third person language, and see, so you identify the feeling you got into a part situation, you were able to clarify the part, ask for help in soothing in an effort to connect with the partner, right, and see if you can connect, if you can help to that part, touch is one of the strategies, try it, it may work, it might not work, it does work for a lot of people find the kind of touch that might work. So one type of touch might not work, try a few different touches and see if that works. And then if you can, once you sue that part, go back to the original argument and see if it still exists for you. Right. If you couldn't stop the argument happened again. And here you are in separate corners, huffing and puffing, try to regulate yourself. Again, movement works, touch works, breath works. And then see if you can acknowledge the situation and move on acknowledge the situation and take responsibility for your action in it for ninja bonus points, and then see if you can reconnect. Got it.

Jacqueline

I'm gonna create a flowchart of what you just posted it on my fridge. So I remember if any of this resonated with you, if you saw yourself either in me or my partner, then you should share this podcast episode with your partner. You share it with friends, share it with other folks to to listen in and see if they see themselves and see if they can break their own patterns. So like share this podcast episode and if you have stories to share, if you either again, it resonated with you you have questions for Effie, you want to share your own story, then come on to our Facebook group and we are curious foxes and there's where you can find other curious listeners to share your story. You can also find us on our website and on Instagram at we are curious foxes where there are blog posts and other goodies. And then of course, let us know that you're listening share a comment or a story or question by sending us an email or voice memo to listening at we are curious foxes.com Or you could record a question that we can put on the show at 201-870-0063

Effy

This episode is produced and edited by Nina Pollock with whom every conflict is resolved with ease and grace our intro music is composed by dev Saha we are so grateful for their work and we're grateful to you for listening as always Stay curious friends we can have a conversation

Jacqueline

we and then right here I was like you should say something I don't know what just to break up the so whatever comes naturally I will whatever the spirits

Effy

are this very close me I will. Oh good. Okay. Ah should check chick.

Jacqueline

New York right, but then siren Dogs, dogs and sirens is what it's like to live in an apartment in New York.

Effy

Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic. We solely aim to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind, and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious and curious, curious and curious. Stay curious.

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