Ep 140: Jealousy Within Non-Monogamy with Dr. Joli Hamilton

Illustration by the talented @silverillustrations

How does jealousy show up in non-monogamous relationships? What are some key factors that might challenge and even change our attitude towards jealousy? How can we embrace, process and learn from our jealousy? 

In this episode, Effy and Jacqueline are joined by Dr. Joli Hamilton to talk about her research on jealousy specifically with non-monogamous relationships in mind. Dr. Hamilton sums up her research with a quote from Maya Angelou, “Jealousy in romance is like salt in food. A little can enhance the savor, but too much can spoil the pleasure and, under certain circumstances, can be life-threatening.” 

To learn more about Dr. Joli Hamilton
Dr. Joli Hamilton is the relationship coach for couples who color outside the lines. She is a research psychologist, TEDx speaker, best-selling author, and AASECT (pronounced ay-sect) certified sex educator. Joli also co-hosts the Playing with Fire podcast with her anchor partner, Ken. Joli’s been featured in The New York Times, Vogue, NPR, and The Atlantic. 

She’s spent the past two decades studying and reimagining what love can be if we open our imaginations to possibility. Joli helps people create non-monogamous partnerships that are custom-built for their authentic selves, no more shrinking, pretending, or hiding required.

Instagram: @drjoli_hamilton
TikTok: @drjoli_hamilton
YouTube: @drjoli_hamilton
LinkedIn: joli-hamilton-phd

Want the 5-step jealousy framework from Joli's research? Grab your e-book here. JoliQuiz is a great way to check in with how ready you are to explore opening up a previously closed relationship.

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Jacqueline Misla @jacquelinemisla

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TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Joli Hamilton

Their desire to have our partners be the right amount of jealous of us? Right or for us? Right? That is a high desire, right?

Effy

Welcome to the curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.

Jacqueline

And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today we're talking about jealousy, particularly within non monogamous relationships. Jealousy is a topic that comes up a lot when we're talking about relationships. And we've had previous guests that came on and talked about evolutionary perspective, social conditioning, and the possible impacts of jealousy on relationships, but generally all within a monogamous lens. And while jealousy is universal experience to some degree by everyone no matter their orientation, or relationship construct. Those in an open relationship experience some unique challenges and opportunities. No one knows this more than today's guest, who has been researching jealousy within non monogamy.

Dr. Joli Hamilton

Hi, I'm Dr. Joli. Hamilton. I'm the coach for couples who color outside the lines. I have a PhD in Jungian and archetypal psychology and I'm also an ASX certified sex educator,

Jacqueline

a research psychologist TEDx speaker and best selling author, Dr. Hamilton has spent the past two decades studying and reimagining love and relationships, and identifying five steps for leveraging jealousy to create deeper, more sustainable connections.

Effy

While our conversation will focus on the importance of research Dr. Hamilton has done with non monogamous folks. My the conversation we had in our last episode about compassion with Dr. Murray to wine, the lessons and impacts of jealousy and compassion are for everyone. Before we dive in, though, a quick reminder to share this episode with someone you think would enjoy it or benefit from it. And to leave us a review wherever you're listening. We started our conversation with Dr. Hamilton by asking her why jealousy occurs.

Dr. Joli Hamilton

For me, jealousy is a triangle. Jealousy is about me, my beloved, whoever that beloved is whoever I have a valued relationship with, and a perceived interrupter. Someone, a human, a person who I imagine, or I have evidence of them potentially interrupting my love bond. So it's about a threat to a valued relationship at root.

Effy

We've heard many definitions of jealousy is the first time it's been presented to us as a triangle, right?

Dr. Joli Hamilton

Jealousy is always a triangle, always, this is how we can easily identify the difference between jealousy and envy, because envy is is dyadic envy is I long for what you have, or I long to be who you are. Jealousy is always a triangle. So if you can spot the triangle, we know jealousy is at work. And here's the thing, and the often lurks inside of jealousy. Jealousy is a complex emotion. And if I feel that there's an interrupter, right, that third point on the triangle, I may compare myself to them, find myself wanting in some way, and now I'm caught in envy inside of this jealousy.

Jacqueline

Hmm, that's a beautiful way of putting it because as you're saying that that is exactly I think, as my experience of it of that layered myths around it, which I do think makes it much more complicated. So I appreciate you naming it that way. Because if I'm thinking about the many moments in my multiple relationships, where I have experienced jealousy, it is just that of seeing and experiencing their connection as a threat. But also seeing that I want what they have, I want that walk through Central Park, I want to go to the rooftop bar at night and oversee the city and look at each other's eyes. Like I want those things. And there must be something special about your connection if you have that with that person, and I don't

Dr. Joli Hamilton

write. And so when we have that layering, this is why it's so crucial to understand jealousy as a complex emotion. If we do we can sort of pop the hood right look inside and if there's envy going on, well, envy can be while it is terribly Oh to feel it can be incredibly motivating. Perhaps I can use some of that envy as inspiration. Oh, I mean, envy is it's honest. It tells you what you want. Right and so now I I can move toward what I do want, I can turn toward creating experiences I do want with my partner, and work on the self worth issues that come up for I mean, humans, self worth is one of our core psychological issues. So it gives us inspirational moments, but only if we allow ourselves to see it that way. It's really easy. When jealousy shows up to instead, imagine that the other person has to solve the problem for us, they need to stop doing something so that we stop feeling a certain way. Mm hmm.

Jacqueline

Yes, that is, I think another big point to make is that that is often the case, I am feeling uncomfortable, which clearly means now you need to do something differently.

Dr. Joli Hamilton

Exactly. And if only life were that simple, but if we're having mature adult relationships, and I do not feel ownership over my own emotional states, I am right out of the gate, I'm a bit stuck, I am going to be struggling, because I'm going to feel a sense of disempowerment. when stuff happens and stuff is bound to happen, no matter what your relationship structure. And so in my work, I tend to ground people in the idea that your emotional experiences are yours, you own them. And so you can start with doing somatic work, nervous system regulation, you can work on your agreements with yourself and your boundaries and your ability to be stable and create a secure base in yourself. And those things all empower us to then experience emotions from a place of active participation rather than the passive. These are happening to me. Yeah,

Jacqueline

I want to pause there too, because I think I just had an aha moment. Even in my own experience of that power dynamic. I don't think it's something that I recognized of feeling powerlessness and giving power to someone else into their dynamic. And as a result of that feeling the need to take control of the situation, by then saying, This is what you can and cannot do and over regulating it. And I don't think I think that I defaulted, certainly to I need to control this, but I don't think that I connected the dots until this moment, it was because I felt so powerless in thinking that my my power had been given away. Yeah, that now I felt the need and I need to take control of the situation. Yeah.

Dr. Joli Hamilton

Yeah. When we think about the roots of jealousy, right, researchers civil Heart, heart and Harrington's work, in particular points out that jealousy can be spotted in infants as young as five or six months old. So if you want to talk about helplessness, of course, power, dynamics and helplessness would come up in jealousy. Because if you think about jealousy as a way to keep us connected to our primary caregiver, who is literally our source of life, when we are infants, it's for that to continually reinforce this bond, this beloved other is my source of life. Well, when I grow up, and if you follow attachment theory at all, I grow up and I transfer some of my attachment base to a romantic partner. It completely possible and we see all the time, and I have certainly felt myself more than a few times, gosh, just this week, even the fear and powerlessness of infancy can still exist in me. Absolutely. And so at that point, I have to engage all of my tools so that my somatic response can allow me to reengage my prefrontal cortex and get into my logical brain and say, Oh, wait, a wait. I am not a toddler. I am not an infant. Even though this feels threatening in the same way it did when I was young and powerless and helpless. Now I have resources. And now I can talk to my partner and ask for what I need. And those when I'm doing my research, people who are able to engage that way with a bottom up protocol of like, I'm going to do the somatic work and then move toward my rational work, those people successfully navigate jealousy.

Effy

I love that. The thing that I want to focus from here, which you brought us into nicely is some of this research you mentioned about that we experienced jealousy as young as five. And there are many other research done on topic of jealousy. We spoke to Professor David Buss, he's been doing a lot of research on jealousy on the show, with the thing that we keep coming up against is that most of the research is done with the dyad in mind in a more mono normative heteronormative point of view, yet here we are all members of the non monogamous community, you know, have multiple partners have had multiple partners. And anytime we look at that research, we find that there is just a piece missing, that for some reason, that resource doesn't align with our experience, you know, and it doesn't have to, but I can't help but notice, like there's something within the methodology of this research. That just leaves me out. So it leaves us out, you know, and I'm curious to if you can speak a little bit to that. And I know that your research is different. You're really looking at sort of broader relating Stiles, and I'd love to dig into that with you.

Dr. Joli Hamilton

Yeah, so let's go there. When someone's doing qualitative research, that's the way I research. I do it differently from somebody who's taking a quantitative approach. Now, much of the research that's out there in a most of Dr. bus's research, it takes a quantitative approach. They want to ask questions that they can then count the answers to, and then categorize people and categorize their answers. And that is helpful to get us some baseline information about broad swathes of people who fit into normative boxes. However, like you just said, I don't feel seen in that, in those boxes. I am a queer cisgender, white, privileged, polyamorous woman, right? There I am. And even I with quite a lot of privilege, I don't fit into that box. And we know that somewhere between five and 20% of people have experienced consensual non monogamy, not cheating. consensual, right. That's a lot of people to exclude. But then let's add on. A lot of this research also posits a biological binary of sex. I'm a sex educator. I've studied the biology and I have biologist friends who are much better at this than I am, who tell me that is just not true. In fact, there is a reality of intersex there is a reality of go natural differences that are so much more complex than a binary would allow us to grasp. But then, much of this research takes and breaks us down into very discrete categories, and then asks us to do a force to choice answer. So first off, I have to check a box, am I male or female? So if I don't fit, what do I do? Right off the bat? Do I just get excluded? Then we move down a little bit move into imagine I pick and I say okay, well, okay, I'll just pick female. Now I moved down into the questions and I start answering questions about my relationship style, and what I feel bad about what I feel worse if my partner was fucking someone else, or when I feel worse if they were holding hands and walking down the street? Well, what if neither of those makes me feel particularly bad? What if I have experienced doing both of those things? And they actually are lovely, and generated for me, but I still have to pick up the pickup box. How accurate is this research for a diverse population, if I don't fit into boxes, then I'm probably not going to feel covered. And that's what I find when I do my literature reviews for my own work. What I'm often looking at is a lot of studies, lots and lots and lots of studies that divide the world up like that. And I know that when we do that, we leave out some really important stories, because the stories of difference, the stories of not the norm. Those are the stories that could potentially leapfrog us forward into a new reality. And if we don't count those in our research, what are we really doing?

Jacqueline

Yeah, for sure. I also think that because that is what we are seeing, then those of us who are not included in that research believe that we actually do need to fit into one of those two boxes. And so I'm sure that if at some point, we are asked what our dynamic is, we may be less likely to self report, some deviation to what we're researching. And so it further just puts us in these buckets, because we it just continues to reinforce this is what people are saying is true. So if one of those things must be true for me, and if not, then there's something wrong with me. Which the irony, of course, is jealousy is one of the most popular conversational topics within the non monogamous world. And yet all of the research that we're finding about it has to do with monogamous relationships.

Dr. Joli Hamilton

Right? And what do we do if we've had a thumb put over our whole being? What do we do it for me, the only thing to do was go join the research community that like that, that was my solution, like, Okay, I'm gonna go be in there. There is research being done from this perspective. But you know, it's a smaller body, and it tends to be of a more qualitative nature, because, for instance, I go into the lived experience of non monogamous people's jealousy, I go deeply and then expand from there I so I look in an idiosyncratic way I go, What is this? What's special about this? What's different? And then from there? I wonder into what could that mean about jealousy? How might that have me look at some of the data some of the quantitative data differently? What questions might I ask differently? If I understand how a non monogamous person works with jealousy? If I can pose a new question, I can get a different answer. The the problem with research the biggest problem with research is the question we ask determines the range of answers we can get. We got to ask better questions.

Effy

Right, right. I mean, that isn't that what they say if you can just define the problem, the solution will present itself. So in the way that we define the problem we ultimately stumped into the only only possible solution. But if we were to define the question differently, we might end up with a different solution or at least maybe multiple solutions. So that that makes so much sense to me. Can we go there? I'm really curious about your research and how you're looking at the polyamorous population. What are the differences or even similarities or, or maybe not even a comparison? What are the discoveries of new brand new discoveries that you coming up with in your research in Josie with the non monogamous folks?

Dr. Joli Hamilton

Yeah, so I think right now I am actually doing a comparative study. So I'm right now repeating, and I did a study on jealousy in polyamorous individuals. So specifically speaking to individuals, not couples, not people who are in a poly kewl. But now I'm repeating that with monogamous people. So I do have some comparison. But here's what's interesting to me is the ideas. The newness, the what is revolutionary about jealousy in my polyamorous studies, is generally not terribly revolutionary. If you've been non monogamous a long time, there are things that we know from inside the experience. So I've been non monogamous for a long time from inside it. Yeah, they do make sense. But when I do the comparative studies, a lot of things have started to pop out. One of the primary differences is, do you have a language for jealousy? Bottom line? Do you understand what jealousy is at root? Could you define it? Could you give me an example of it? Can you differentiate it from envy? Do you understand that it is a complex emotion made of other emotions. And then if you had all that, which almost all of my polyamorous sample did, if you had that, what do you do when it shows up? The next difference that showed up in the research was that I talked about it, it's normal to talk about it is normal to talk about it, yes, in a relationship, but not just in a relationship. Also, in a community, it's also normal to to be able to turn to the internet and say, I'm in a polyamorous triad, and I'm feeling jealous, and for there to be answers that float to the top that are generative, and do not just instantly toss my relationship into the garbage heap, because it doesn't fit the norms. And so what I find is that the people who have language and have space to talk about jealousy as if it's normal and addressable, they deal with it more reasonably like inside themselves, it does not consume them in the same way. However, we have to have the conversation, somebody has to start the conversation. And jealousy can also come with a lot of shame. And so what I've noticed is that, in some parts of my research, there are very clear threads of shame. And that can show up in both monogamous and polyamorous samples. Because if you can just think back it. So jealousy can be spotted as young as five or six months old. So if you think back to when you're a little kid, start thinking about like toddlerhood, you start being told to share, and to be good, right? So you get these ideas that we need to share our parents affection, we need to share our toys. And then you grow up. And imagine you become a non monogamous person, and you're out there. And again, sharing is sort of a forefront value, right? And there's this idea of being good at this good at sharing and wanting larger community and wanting conversion. And so all of those things that are generally pro social behaviors that we're trying to reinforce, can also go into a shame bucket. And so folks who struggle with the shame of jealousy also seem to struggle with finding solutions for themselves that they can act on regularly.

Jacqueline

I think in my mind, I'm going back and forth around whether within non monogamous communities folks feel more or less shamed in a monogamous communities. Because I imagined for myself, I think I felt both where I felt well, of course, I'm jealous, like this dynamic is going to bring that in. But then I've also felt well, to be ninja level, poly is just conversion all over the place. And any jealousy is something that I need to work through in silence, because I've signed up for this thing. And so just wondering, and in your research, have you what you have found about shame within non monogamous communities?

Dr. Joli Hamilton

Yeah, I didn't realize I was gonna have to go so deeply into shame when I did this originally, but it right away, jumped off the page at me because when people described shame, they didn't say I feel ashamed. They gave me clues and signals, you know, they withdrew, their bodies would close up, or they would their voice would drop down and they wouldn't want to say or they would say I really don't want to talk about I really don't want to say this part. But here's what I did. And what I found interesting too, is that it wasn't like there was all or nothing. Some people felt that in their non monogamous community in their Polycom was in their families, it was completely normal to talk about jealousy and so they felt safe and they didn't feel shame. Others felt immense pressure to be compulsive and to transform their jealousy into conversion, which I do not recommend trying to do. And those people struggled a lot with layers that layering now, because now I have to hide and anything that we have to hide immediately becomes good fodder for shame. So it really depends a lot on the microcosms you find yourself in and what reading material you choose what podcasts you choose to listen to, because some really stay focused on the idea that jealousy is a negative emotion. And hey, the APA agrees. The APA says Jealousy is a negative affective state, but doesn't say that about anger says anger is a healthy emotion.

Effy

Fascinating. Okay. All right.

Dr. Joli Hamilton

Yeah. So if we are in a microcosm that tells us that jealousy is bad, and then we're likely to feel shame, at which point we're likely to start hiding it. So this could even just start at the beginning of your non monogamous journey, and then just become sort of a kernel of shame that can collect more and more evidence of like, Oh, I'm bad at this. I'm bad at this, when really, people who are non monogamous, who can own their jealousy, understand that it has a purpose, or at least had a purpose, and then figure out what they want to do with that those people are in a good position to D shame D stigmatize, stigmatize, and to do that for their community to not just for themselves, but to broaden their community.

Effy

The thing that came up with me, for me, I love that the question you asked Jackie, about shame within the poly community, because there's definitely that rhetoric around holier than thou, like I don't feel jealousy, I don't it's conversion all over the place, puppy dogs and rainbows, which, you know, it should also be called into question. What I've also noticed is these two extremes within the people that I work with, which are mostly people who are curious about transitioning into non monogamy, which one side either they feel shame about Feeling jealousy and kind of saying, like, they do feel shame, and they want to hide it and, and feel guilty, shame, weakness around that, that's kind of what they associate with it. And then I have the hard the other side, people who are so like, they use jealousy as the thing that they cannot get over to then open up, they're just like, I'm too jealous. I'm a jealous person, you know, that loud and proud about their jealousy. And it is the reason they dig their heels in. And like not interested in any kind of exploration, which is fine. By the way, you don't have to explore anything you don't want to. But just seeing how jealousy comes up as a pawn, if you will. And as we navigate all these kind of relationships, waters, yeah,

Dr. Joli Hamilton

we have a paradoxical relationship with jealousy, culturally, not just as far as I understand this is this may be universal, because I have I have asked a lot of people for a lot of different places and the desire to have our partners be the right amount of jealous of us, right or for us, right. That is a high desire. Right. And Dr. Maya Angelou has this beautiful quote that I think sums it up way better than I ever could. She said, jealousy in love in romance is like salt and food a little bit enhances the savor too much spoils the dish.

Effy

Yes. Yeah, that,

Dr. Joli Hamilton

right, we want that just right amount, except here's the thing, we all have a different just right amount just like we do for salt, right? Like we want it to be just the right amount of saltiness. And then we have to think about what does that mean? Because now I start placing judgments on what is the right amount, great big air quotes around that, what's the right amount? And what's the right way for jealousy to be expressed? Because some people, yeah, they use jealousy as a defense. But some people also just have no idea about what a healthy expression of jealousy might look like. And we don't really talk about it very much. So let's talk about it.

Jacqueline

Yeah, well, can can we talk about that? What does a healthy expression of jealousy look like? Because I can name many ways in which I did not do it in a healthy way

Dr. Joli Hamilton

to the people who I have worked with, and the people who because I work with individuals who are going through this, and I do my research studies, and the people who understand that jealousy is an invitation to doing their own inner work, right. So going way back and doing their inner child work and going and doing their somatic, like the traumas stuck in their body work and doing the work of growing their relationship skills. The people who were like, oh, jealousy means I have an opportunity. They tend to be able to move into a place of talking about jealousy as a neutral experience that's happening and that they want to work with keeping themselves in a growth mindset. have? Well, maybe I don't know how to respond well to it in the moment. So what will I do a healthy expression of jealousy for one person might be taking a pause and saying, I'm overwhelmed right now with my jealousy. I'm going to go and deal with that myself for 45 minutes, I'm going to come back. And I would love when I come back for you to be prepared to reassure me, right? Just being able to clearly name but in order to do that, we need to have a plan. Most people don't have an actual plan for dealing with jealousy. I ask people to actually write it down and make it small enough, you can fit it on a sticky note. What's your plan? What are you going to do? Because when jealousy comes up, it does it cuts off access to your prefrontal cortex, you are now in limbic system. And you you're being asked one question by your nervous system, am I safe? Am I safe? Am I safe? The answer, it appears to be no. So we need to do something that's right for us to create an opportunity for us to then express our jealousy in a way that actually invites intimacy, because that's what jealousy really is. It's an invitation to increase intimacy. If we handle it, well. It also feels crappy when it happens.

Effy

Yes, barf, just so many dots connected for me. And I think the clarity that popped up for me is this. That jealousy is essentially about fear and fears, essentially about survival system. And I think you don't make that connection. clearly enough, people aren't as clear about it. And because of the shame and the stigma and the the noise, we call it, the noise around it. When you put it that way. I'm like, Oh, that's so simple. You feel jealous because you're afraid like we define jealousy as you fear see real or perceived threat, right? Threat equals fear. Fear. Now I'm in a survival system. I'm in my fight flight freeze phone strategy, and that is what jealousy then looks like for me. Right? And then now we've actually taken jealousy out of stigma, but more towards how we deal with fear, which is much easier to digest. Eating has less stigma, less weight, you know, we talk to children about like when you're afraid, like do these things. So I love that I love that. I think it's such a such a holistic way of looking at it.

Dr. Joli Hamilton

Yes, yeah, that's it. So I researched jealousy from an archetypal perspective, archetypal simply means that it's a universal pattern of human behavior. We can spot jealousy, like every ancient mythology, all of our old languages start to have this this word for jealousy, right very early. So we know it's been around for a long time. We know that it describes something that causes a big upset in our world. And so it really helps if we can define it in a way that D stigmatizes it. But it also helps to recognize if it's that old. Yeah, of course, it's connected to fear, right? If something goes all the way back, and to the evolutionary psychologists point. Sure, absolutely. I love using that as a ground based like, sure as an adaptive strategy. It makes sense for me to stay connected, not just to a partner who can provide me resources, I mean, sure, but honestly, what about staying connected to my parent who's nourishing me with their very body, right, like, that's important too. So sibling rivalry is another form of jealousy. Since we know it's old. And if we do if we d stigmatize it by remembering, it's about fear, now we have tools for working with fear. And now we also have the opportunity to see that it's possible to transition something that's that was fearful into something that isn't like I can have a fear of spiders that I then work through, we know that fear can be changed. Jealousy still exists in my life, but I work with it differently. So it is known I don't get scared of my jealousy. I sometimes get scared in my jealousy. I am frightened that my love bond will be interrupted. But I'm not scared of jealousy. And many people are scared of jealousy on top of the fear that's happening. So we have leverage though, that's what that means we have a place to work.

Jacqueline

It love the idea of having a plan that fits on a posted I think that's brilliant.

Dr. Joli Hamilton

I mean, I still have this, I still have a post it with my quick plan. And without that, it is of course we get pulled into patterns, patterns or patterns for a reason they're efficient, our neural pathways are well worn. So in order to disrupt that, and lay down new, you know, new myelin to make that make a new pattern flow, we need to make it as simple as possible. And one of the things I do is I like to have a trigger, right. So if then, right, so if my partner is having an another contact, right, I don't even make it about a date. If my partner is having another contact. Then I will do this, these three things. They're really simple. They take me like two minutes. But if then helps me do this and start to reregulate even before For I've been able to name jealousy, even like, because that's important you just named in my research, there were five things that people polyamorous individuals did, if they when they were navigating jealousy with ease. And the first one was naming jealousy, they were able to name it, they were able to name it. And then notice they did that by noticing the sensations in their body. Right? So they noticed the sensations in their body that are jealousy for them. So do you notice jealousy? As a, as something in your stomach? Or in your chest? Do you notice heat? Or wait? What does it feel like? Does it crinkle? Does it twist? Does it constrict? Does it get all electric? What happens? start to notice that and I'll have people write that down to like, Okay, another post it note, what are this? What are the exact body symptoms that I get in jealousy? And if I noticed those, then I can name it say, Oh, I'm having these symptoms. Oh, am I jealous? Oh, yep. Look, there's jealousy. Now I can put into place my plan and all that can happen in the span of just a few seconds.

Jacqueline

What are the other four? Now? I'm curious? Yeah. So

Dr. Joli Hamilton

the first is noticing the sensations, right? And then, and that shifts into naming. And then from naming, there's a deeper step. The third step is about the narrative. What's the narrative I have about jealousy? What does? What does the jealousy mean? For me? What does this action mean that my partner is taking you the story, you created the story you told yourself about what you're seeing what it means and what it will portend for your future. And some people have really, really painful narratives of jealousy. And some people have pretty useful ones, the more useful and the more tenderly, you can hold that with, like, I don't know this to be true. This is the story. I'm telling myself if we can use that, that technique of this the story I'm telling myself, and what's my evidence? Oh, I have none. Hmm. Okay, now we can move to step four, which is about navigating your needs. Navigating Your needs is really I mean, it is Polly skills, one on one, do I know what it is I need? Do I know whether I need this thing to be met in a specific way? And if I do, that's a want, do I really have to have this need met in this exact specific way. And if I named those needs, and I creatively figure out with partners, how to meet them, then I am empowered in my relationship. And I'm empowering my partner to to help me I am like inviting them I'm welcoming them helping me by by working with me on getting my needs met, which doesn't mean that they have to be my need feeling machine. But we can work to creatively solve how do we how do we do this? But I do want to name the fifth step because that's the one that non monogamous people are like, cool, great. How do I get it? It's nurturing conversion. And you know what conversion is? And I know what conversion is, I know that I hold it as just joy for my partner's joy, joy for another's joy. But figuring out what to do to actually nurture that is not simple. And what I what I have found is, many people asked me how they can change their jealousy into conversion, or even more frequently, I will have people say, Why can't my partner just change their jealousy into conversion? Why can't they just feel conversion? And as soon as I hear that, when somebody says, I want to turn jealousy into conversion, I'm like, nope, stop. Just full stop, stop. Jealousy is not the raw material of conversion. It's not jealousy stands on its own. Right? compulsions, raw material is joy. If we want to nurture conversion, we need to foster joy. And I think Dr. Murray twins work is like some of the best out there for understanding the factors that will increase conversion. So her work picks up really right where mine leaves off, like, cool when we work with jealousy, let jealousy be what it is because it can sit right next to conversion at the same time, in the same circumstances. And if we allow that to be true, then we can be at peace with the fact that our jealousy doesn't mean that we are bad, right in and I could also foster some conversion. And I could stand in that squishy space of wow, I'm really happy for my partner. And I'm, and I'm happy for me being happy for my partner. And I'm still dealing with the fear, anger, sadness, all the stuff that comes with my jealousy.

Effy

That makes so much sense, right? Because jealousy is about fear, as we discussed earlier, and that means you're in your fight or flight. And that's not where joy lives for jealousy, you're in an entirely different state of mind. Your neurology is different. Your probably your blood pressure's different, like everything about you is different when you're experiencing jealousy because it is assigned to a survival system. Right? And Compersion lives in the area that you thrive, right. It's where joy lives, so you can't really turn something that lives in an entirely different part of your brain. it into, you know, into the other thing and also allows for both of those things to exist at the same time wanting some kind of an activated amygdala. And the other one is the reasonable frontal lobe. And we know that we can switch in between the two, right? I mean, it's not at the same time, we can go back and forth, you know, in between the two. And also depends how I'm feeling like, if I'm feeling particularly tender, I'm probably going to allow my amygdala to rule. And then if I'm feeling a little better about myself, then I'm just going to be able to rise above it a lot easier. So I think I love what you're saying about the aim of the game is not to try to transform one feeling into another, but to like, allow an allocate space for both and check in with yourself to see like, what else is going on with you when you're experiencing that conversion, and jealousy?

Dr. Joli Hamilton

Yeah, 100%. And I, I liked that too, you notice that like, we have to switch our you know, our brains operate in such a way that we have to then switch. And so when we're exhausted when we're tired, we might be in a state where we theoretically can hold both of these emotions, but we're just too tired to really swap back and forth. And so at that point, my options are more limited, right. And so that's why it's important to have a really clear, small defined set of steps I can take. And if somebody wants to nourish Compersion, they really want to build it in their life, I want to remind them that that's great. And it's not required, but with jealousy, it is required that in order to, in order to be in community, and this actually, I don't think this is about non monogamy in order to be in community and connection with others, I do need to be able to manage feelings of jealousy. Because jealousy, again, complex emotion, made a fear, right. And then the very next thing that peep the most frequently used word attached to jealousy, anger. So if I can't manage fear and anger, and then we'll go down the list, sadness, and all then there's, you know, a whole list and we could break all fear, anger and sadness into all it's those more gentle emotions, like, like anxiety versus fear, or a little maudlin versus sadness, right? If I can just deal with those using other tools. Now, all my relationships get better. Because when I apply the tools to anger, then I don't go off in a mad rage, right? Sure. So we know we need to do that. And we usually have some skills to do that. We just forget that jealousy doesn't give us an excuse, right? It's not actually an excuse for acting out, or our anger.

Effy

Yeah. And it's like, we want to be regulated, right. And when you're, when we're jealous, we are dysregulated. And I love what you're saying also about, we don't necessarily it's not imperative that we cultivate compassion. But it is somewhat imperative for our quality of lives and being a part of society that we are regulated humans, just for our own good first and foremost. And I think we can talk about being in regulation, we could talk about it in terms of polyvagal theory being invest in digest, or I like calling it stay in play, right? So there's so many theories out there, that kind of just reinforcing this idea that it's not bad. It's just dysregulated. And you need to just get back to a regulated state. So you can operate from a place that isn't entirely cortisol, cortisol driven, you know,

Dr. Joli Hamilton

yeah, doing that having specific tools to reregulate is a game changer, right. Like I trained in neuro somatic intelligence, specifically, because I wanted to have a very clear framework, I work with a lot of very analytical types, I work with a lot of high level thinkers, which is great, they still have bodies. I don't always love that that's true about me, either. And we do have to learn the skills of regulation, because Darnit my brain still needs this body to walk around the world. Beyond when I think about just being in community and being able to self regulate, I know that I, I am being the person I want to be right. So having those skills is always a win, I find that people need really efficient tools to deal with regulation, because not everybody has an hour to go meditate. So I try to come up with really, really efficient tools to get us back out of that activated state. So that jealousy can then be dealt with in a practical manner. And realistically, when you're new to this, it is frequently a bigger deal. Like often it takes years to learn how to do this with flexibility. And I don't, I don't know that it ever goes away. For most of us. You might be a low jealousy person. Great, awesome, but you're not dead yet. Who knows what could happen? We all need to have the skill set for it. And I don't know we shouldn't forget that. Until very recently, jealousy was a reasonable excuse for grievous bodily harm and murder. In some states. I think it was still used as a defense. It was either 77 or 82 in Texas, still able to be used as a defense for harm. So, of course, we need to actually deal with jealousy. We need to, because we cannot allow jealousy to be an excuse for anger. That's ridiculous. Like we want to talk about using an emotion poorly. It would be that

Jacqueline

would I'm hearing that continues to connect the dots for me is that idea that the threat that you're feeling needs to be reduced in order for then YouTube you feel reregulated into into be able to pivot into conversion or just into kind of baseline. And what I what I'm thinking, as you're saying that is that my tendency, either if I'm feeling that threat is either to act out or to push it down. And I think that's really helpful for me is recognizing my own pattern of either acting out or pushing it down, I'll do it or you do it. And instead trying to pivot to a place of partnership and dialogue, this is something that I'm feeling because of the dynamic that we've chosen. And so let's work through this together.

Dr. Joli Hamilton

Yeah, you're I mean, you're describing the difference between power with or power over to, right? Am I in power? Are we together, exercising whatever resources we have each of us to collaborate on creative solutions? Or am I imagining that I have to and I want to use power, I'm using it like control am I am I trying to force this to happen, and imagining that there's a wall, actually a barrier, or a is already a slice through the rope that connects me to my partner, I'm imagining that there is no connection. And I go into this place of force and control. And that requires so much more resourcing like, it's, it's fast, but it's inefficient, right? It doesn't actually get us where we want to go. If I move into a state of rest and digest, if I move and I love, stay in play, love that. If I move into that, and I collaborate with my partner, I have exponentially increased access to resource, right? Because now I'm more resourced. My partner is feeling safe to collaborate with me. So they feel more resource and now it's, it's me, times them, not me, not me plus them even it's, we actually have just elevated the tools that we have at our disposal right now.

Effy

They're doing so true. And the other thing that I just quick, quick sidenote, something that you said earlier about, you know, that some people are low jealousy. And I've definitely heard people say they, they don't experience jealousy. And the thing that comes up for me when I hear that is, is that true? Or is that masked by an avoidant attachment style? Right? You just don't the reason why you don't feel jealousy, right? You don't feel jealousy is because you, you're not going that like if you need a significant threat to a significant relationship to feel jealousy. And if you take the significant part out of a relationship, and you keep creating chips at an arm's length at all times, then that's probably why it doesn't equal equal to jealousy for us, because you're not necessarily feeling you're not allowing yourself to have the intimacy, which then we'll call that relationship, a significant relationship. Right? Right.

Dr. Joli Hamilton

I would refine that even further to say, I think that there is a wide range of the amount of jealousy somebody finds standard, and also how they express it. Some people sort of naturally express jealousy in more, in more reasonable ways. I happen to be married to one of those people, I'm really lucky. It's almost annoying how well, he manages to express jealousy. But also Yeah, he has an attachment style that is definitely avoidance. And that allowed him in many relationships to do that. So I had an up close experience of, oh, wait, now as he and I became closer and closer, and he developed a true attachment, jealousy appeared. Now he was luckily still a I mean, he was also married to a jealousy researcher. So he was put in a position to practice what we what I preach, so to speak, but also like he was equipped to practice those things, because he had, he had been paying attention to jealousy, and paying attention to how it felt in his body. And it was really just the transition from the statement. I don't feel jealous to saying jealousy is not a big driver for me. But when I feel relationship IQ, let me look and see what's going on. And a lot of times the feelings that are going on are fear, anger, sadness. Oh, wait, that looks suspicious. What are the what's the fear about oh, it's actually about oh, crap. It's actually

me Hi. Yeah, absolutely. It is. And it's funny. When we're not in a jealous state. It is funny to go back and look at our earlier selves and say, Oh, of course that was jealousy. But in the moment For many, many reasons, including internalized shame, external shame, you know, shame being put on us, all of the all of the ways that we might have masked this, it is really easy to say I'm just angry, or I'm just sad, or I'm, I'm just, I'm just scared. I'm just scared. And it's reasonable. This fear is reasonable and make a huge list of reasons why this fear is reasonable. And I say yes to all of that. And let's take the word just out of there. And say, if this is present, what if you were jealous? What if you were, that's, that's my, my go to move. So I encourage people to let jealousy be part of the story, and to always know that they can reclaim it. The jealousy is my feeling. It's mine. I get to work with it. Even if my partner isn't ready or prepared, I still get to work with my feeling. I am not at the mercy of jealousy.

Effy

The I think that just makes a lot of sense. I love everything you're saying. Basically, the thing that came up is everything that you were saying, as Polly folk, we just get more opportunities to practice. I think that's the other big difference. I think it's the same process for people in monogamous relationships. But because it doesn't come up, as often the opportunities don't come up as often. Often, I should say, traditional opportunities, right? You don't get the practice this processing framework when you're in a monogamous relationship, like it may be comes up in these like big chunks. But it is not this continuous cycle of oh, here it is again, and let's just like go through the process. Here it is again. And what I have found people say to me all summer, you don't you don't get jealous? I do. I just process it fast, because I've done it a million zillion times, but I do it hurts. It's shitty. I feel every bit of it. I feel it in a pit in my stomach, I feel it in my jaw. I know it. It's familiar. I feel it, I promise you. I feel it deeply and holy, I have just processed it enough that I just I'm able to get through it faster.

Dr. Joli Hamilton

That rings 100% true to me. Because when I was well, I continue to have so many conversations with people who have been nominal Gomez for for a range of times. And it stands out to me that there are a few different ways that people talk about jealousy. There's the honeymoon phase, where I'm like, jealousy is not really a problem for me. And then there's the oh my god, what is this hell. And then there's, I've processed this, I have tools, I have protocol, we have understandings. And I understand that, in fact, and emotion is not going to kill me. So I can tolerate it. And I mean, it's not a coincidence that the longer someone has been in their non monogamy and practicing the tools, because you can be in your non monogamy and not practicing the tools. The longer you've been practicing the tools, the better it goes. And for some people, that takes decades, because I have I've worked with people who come to me in their sixth or seventh year, but they haven't even gotten to the stage of being able to name jealousy yet. So I don't care how polyamorous you are. If you haven't named it, I promise you, it's somewhere running something. Because even if it's not you, it's running somebody in your poly cool, it's running something and it's running in the dating world. So it's out there, we all have to practice it. And you're a great example, if he like once you make it something you can do efficiently. It doesn't have to ruin as much of your day. Awesome. Best maybe the best case scenario. And you know, there's something else that we didn't talk about at all that turned up in my research. And I feel like we should mention some people. In my first study, obviously, these are qualitative studies. They're very small numbers. But 30% of my first study found jealousy arousing, sexually arousing,

Jacqueline

yes, I would be a part of that 30%, which makes it much more complicated. Actually.

Dr. Joli Hamilton

Me too, right. And so I find it sexually arousing. And I have to remind myself that that can be a tool that I leverage. So I was I was interviewed in a in an article about this. And so there is a story about me and what I do when jealousy is overwhelming, and it involves a lot of sexual pleasure. And for me that works, it won't work for everyone. But there are so many more tools than most of us imagine, for working with jealousy. And so no matter how your jealousy looks, whatever clothes it wears, I really think that if we just start having these conversations on a regular basis, from a creative perspective, like what might we do now? And we start experimenting. That's what I do experiment. Let's see what could move this. Let's see how I can move back into connection, how we can experience some joy again, like there are so many different ways that people do this effectively. It's so even though that framework was like five steps, those five steps can look a million million ways.

Jacqueline

Yeah, and thank you for naming that. Because when I do experience The same thing where I experienced jealousy as a turned on. And when I first started to experience it, it was a complete mindfuck. Because here I am terrified and turned on. And I didn't know what to do with that. And I never heard people talking about it at the time. And so I felt like it was just this very strange dysfunction, like these this glitch in my brain that we're connecting these two wires that shouldn't be connected. And so then I would leverage it, but then feel shame around it. It was just all mixed up. And so I appreciate you, you're totally normal cast and you're and the research. Yes, thank you.

Dr. Joli Hamilton

You're totally normal. And I think this is an area where there's a lot of potential. So we should keep talking about that.

Jacqueline

Yes, I agree. This is one of those episodes, that number one I need to listen to afterwards with a notebook and pen. Because you have been able to connect so many dots of different things that have been that we have been digging into that feel important to us that we're trying to figure out ourselves. And so I'm sitting in it now and and like need a moment and then needs to come back to it and revisit this conversation and listen again and take notes. really deeply appreciative for your the work that you're doing, and normalizing some things that aren't talked about pushing back on some of the research that exists already. Yeah, just a lot of gratitude. Thank you.

Dr. Joli Hamilton

I really appreciate your your words. Thank you.

Jacqueline

Before we let you go, if we would just love to ask you for questions just to get to know you a little bit better. And then then after that, we are going to schedule you for another conversation. That is the order of operations, we're going to ask you this question. And then we're gonna end the podcast, and then we're gonna get on our calendars and schedule you again. But the first question that we have for you is what is one piece of advice that you would give to your younger self about love sex or relationships?

Dr. Joli Hamilton

I would start right off with your normal. Like you're, you're normal. And it's this piece of advice I give most frequently as a sex educator, you're normal. And now you just need to go find places where you can have conversations that allow you to define yourself as you are, and normalize your reality.

Jacqueline

That made me feel emotional.

Effy

Oh, yeah, no, it's true. That's what we tried to do here. So yeah. Okay, so what is one romantic or sexual adventure on your bucket list?

Dr. Joli Hamilton

Oh, I have been meaning for years now to get to, like, desire or Odyssey and I still haven't done it. And then the pandemic I was I was in my doctoral program, and I kept putting it off. And then I was in a pandemic, and that didn't happen and dammit, if this doesn't happen soon, like, something's going down. Like if that doesn't happen, I need to arrange a giant or do you just right here on my own property? Because it is I love I love the premise of all that juicy energy and I just want to go soak in it. Yes.

Jacqueline

I love that. Well, I don't know if you know, but if he wrote the book on Play, parties play party etiquette. So if you host something, I suggest you give it to your guests in advance. That's it. It's an it's just a book club.

Dr. Joli Hamilton

It's a book club with an activity afterwards. I like that. I like that. Like it's fine. It's just it's a club with a charcuterie board and everything it's all good. It's all good.

Effy

don't realize like throughout the day you get loads of workshops and seminars people don't realize like the whole like nerdy educational piece of these like weekend long orgies and it's all true. It's all true. They're great.

Jacqueline

Okay, so self evident, perhaps, but interested in your answer around how do you challenge the status quo?

Dr. Joli Hamilton

Yeah, I am here to make sure that people not only move jealousy into a neutral position, but really challenged their understanding of their responsibility for jealousy and not allow themselves to accept simple answers. I want to be in the question of what do we do with jealousy individually, so that culturally, socially, jealousy can be utilized for what it's good for, and managed for what it's pretty destructive about?

Effy

Excellent. So the message is, stay curious about jealousy. Yeah, I approve this message. Curious Fox approves this message. Beautiful. Okay. Last but not least, we are a curious bunch around here. And we are always curious about what people are curious about. So tell us what are you curious about lately?

Dr. Joli Hamilton

Lately, I've been really diving into the bottom up approach to dealing with our nervous system. And that has been incredibly fruitful and I'm 46 years old, and this is I was late to the game with my body. So I had a lot of reasons that that's true. Some of them traumatic, some of them just I happen to be a cerebral type, right, but learning some methods that allowed me to feel welcome into the community of people of Cymatics. Right? I have found the semantics world to be incredibly exclusionary up till now. So lately I've been really curious and that Curiosity has turned into community around that and that feels delicious, and has my whole body working differently. Because when I learned and community I feel different. So that's been my big curiosity.

Effy

Here, here

Jacqueline

is here. You're amongst also brainy people. So we really do understand. Yes, we that has been a life journey, I think for particularly for me and I in my 40s now is to connect with my body. It's never too late. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Hamilton. Thank you so much. Thank you. Really appreciate you such a good conversation.

Dr. Joli Hamilton

Thank you for having me.

Jacqueline

For more information on Dr. joley Hamilton, and to get free ebooks on jealousy, reigniting your sex life, getting what you need from your relationships, and more, visit her website. Listen to Joe lee.com. You can hear her and her anchor partner Ken on their podcast playing with fire. Or you can visit her on Instagram and Twitter at Dr. joley underscore Hamilton. If you want to share your experience with jealousy, ask for resources and connect with other foxy listeners. Head to facebook and join our Facebook group at we are curious foxes. You can also jump onto Patreon at we are curious foxes. To hear the embarrassing jealousy story that I share in a previous episode about an instance that left me creeping outside the window of a restaurant while my wife was on a date. To hear that Patreon extra and to find many episodes. And after our conversations over 50 videos from educator led workshops he had to go to Patreon at we are curious foxes. And did you know that we have a jealousy and conversion section on our website? Visit us at We are curious foxes.com to find podcast episodes, blog posts, book recommendations that give you the resources that you need to navigate through jealousy and find the lessons that can help you get to know yourself and your partners better. If you enjoy our episodes, we would love for you to subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts, or to follow us on Spotify and Stitcher. This tells the podcast guides this content matters. And extra bonus points if you rate the show and leave a comment so that others know the kinds of impact that the show has had on you and your relationships. And finally, let us know that you're listening by sharing a comment, story or question. You can email us or send us a voice memo to listening at weird curious foxes.com Or you can record a question for the show by calling us at 646-450-9079

Effy

This episode is produced by Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla. With help from Yağmur Erkişi. Our editor is Nina Pollock, with whom we have the most significant relationship. Our intro music is composed by Dev Sahar. We are so grateful for that work, and we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends. And leave us a review. I want

Jacqueline

to hear the embarrassing jelly. Jelly. Jelly and jelly jelly. I'm jelly. I think that's a thing. Right? I see that.

Unknown Speaker

Oh, God.

Effy

Yes, we are recording as well. Beautiful fall I'm starting. Please hold. Stopping. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic. We solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends.

Curious Fox

Stay curious and curious. Curious curious.

Effy

Stay curious.

Still Curios?