Ep 139: Nurturing Compersion According to Research with Dr. Marie Thouin

Illustration by the talented @katarina_samohin

What is compersion? What are the factors that promote compersion and the factors that hinder it? Does it have a place outside of non-monogamy?

In this episode, Effy and Jacqueline chat with Dr. Marie Thouin about her research on compersion. Dr. Thouin shares the factors that promote or get in the way of nurturing feeling joy for your partner’s joy. Effy and Jacqueline reflect on their personal journeys with compersion, and share the highs and lows of trying to embody this most elusive feeling. 

Free Session for Curious Fox Listeners: If you are interested in learning more about Marie's work, you can get a free 30-minute exploratory session by visiting bit.ly/curiousaboutcompersion

To learn more about Marie
Dr. Marie Thouin is the founder of Love InSight, a Mindful Dating & Relationship Coaching practice where she helps people of all backgrounds and relationship styles create vibrant & intentional love lives. She is also a leading scholar and researcher on the topic of compersion in consensually non-monogamous relationships. She shares her research on her website, www.whatiscompersion.com

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TRANSCRIPT:

Marie Thouin

Jealousy is not something to be entitled about, entitled to control people with but really something that I need to figure out for myself, like, Where's it coming from? How do I heal? How do I love in a way that is more freeing?

Effy

Welcome to the Curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.

Jacqueline

And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today, we're talking about conversion. What is it? Should we have it and what gets in the way of it? Our guide through all things conversion.

Marie Thouin

My name is Dr. Marie twine. I'm a dating and relationship coach who helps people of all backgrounds design vibrant and intentional love lives. I'm also a leading scholar and researcher on the topic of conversion in consensually non monogamous relationships.

Effy

The most elusive of all feelings, compassion, is one of the biggest topics when it comes to non monogamy. While being an ancient idea. Buddha talks about mudita sympathetic joy in English as one of the Four Virtues in Buddhism.

Jacqueline

During a conversation, Dr. twine explains what conversion is and talks about her research, which captures six factors that promotes and hinder conversion within an open relationship. And while these factors are simple, that doesn't mean that they're easy. In fact, we spent much of the episode sharing examples and personal experiences illustrating just how hard conversion that said when it is given and received. It is a beautiful thing. It

Effy

is indeed. So I was recently on a date. And of course, at some point, we found ourselves talking about conversion, of course, profanity or steam

Jacqueline

night conversation, right?

Effy

Drop it on the first day, why not? Was my attitude to be honest. But the interestingly, the entry point to the topic was not through non monogamy. And the reason I want to share this, because he think it's worth thinking about compression in a bit more of a broader way. Right. So the way that we landed on the topic was he was sharing some experiences with exes where it sounded like, the desire was for more for symmetry rather than synergy. So there was a desire to be doing the same thing at the same time, that sometimes got in the way of people doing the things they want to do, right. So for example, if one party was like really engrossed in what they were they were doing, maybe they're trying to, you know, they're creating something they're working, and they're sort of in their flow. And it's dinnertime, the expectation was for that person to break the flow and show up for dinner. And that was like, what the expectation was right.

Jacqueline

I have experienced that many a time. Yes, that sounds familiar. Really, yeah.

Effy

And we do, especially with hyper focus and things like that, like, once I'm working, I'm working and I can go without eating for a very long time. So these things happen. And we talk about synergy and symmetry in relationships a lot on on the show. The interesting thing was that when he was showing that the idea of compression came up for me, believe it or not, I wasn't waiting, I wasn't waiting, drop it, when it came up for me, because I can understand both of those sides, right, I can understand somebody who's engrossed in their work, and they are getting so much out of it, or maybe even even if they're not enjoying it, but they're going towards a deadline, like they're in it, and focused on that. And the other person has some expectations around spending time together, eating together, whatever it is. And in that time, you really have options to deal with that. You can definitely insist on the symmetry, right? And we can talk about whether that's a good thing or not, whether you are you thriving in that moment, all that kind of stuff. But I think the other option is to really like find your way to conversion and and see what your partner is doing as something that gives them joy, even though if they're like, you know, cramming to get hit a deadline, it is ultimately something they want to do, they are in their element, they are doing what they want to do. And even though it means that you're going to eat alone, you can tap into that Compersion to just be happy and joyful for your partner for achieving, you know, the goals or working on the thing that they want to do and not feel so hurt. And and worried or, you know, distressed about eating alone. Right. So that's kind of, I was like, Hey, do you know this thing called conversion? And I kind of explained it to him.

Jacqueline

Which by the way, I think I haven't been on both ends of it. I think if that's To the constant practice, that's challenging. But if that is the way that you can show up, again, bringing food to them as they're working, or taking the break and coming over, then yes, that absolutely should be a strategy.

Effy

I mean, yes, I think ultimately just yes to conversion, right? That is like, you know, the thing that we all aspire to, and, you know, it is one of the Buddhist virtues. So we know that it's like this high tight sense of self, right, you being your son, real, your high best self. But like with those things that make us feel like we're, you know, expensive and good and wholesome, you know, they're a little tricky to get to, you kind of had to be at ninja level. And the interesting thing was, even though we started talking about this in nothing to do with non monogamy, of course, I kind of had to explain why I'm using the strange word called conversion. And he's like, I've never heard of this, I'm like, Well, it's kind of made up word. It's made up what in the world of non monogamy. And I kind of explained it to me through the lens of non monogamy by saying, you know, the easiest way to explain it in the context of non monogamy is your partner comes home from a day and they're elated. And they have so much to tell you or they're kind of in this really high place. And you have choices, you can be threatened by that upset by that feel jealous jealousy. Or, again, you find your way to conversion, and you find joy, and acceptance and love for them, for their state that has nothing to do with you. And so I kind of explained it to him that way. And interestingly, when I have I give him a lot of credit for being able to say, Hey, I just had a visceral reaction to that. He's like, I just felt it. Like I felt a shiver down my spine, my stomach flipped. And like, that is a really scary idea, like the picture that you just drew you like a partner coming back. And that was terrifying to me. Right? Which is to say, number one, a huge kudos that he gets extra bonus points for being able to speak to his experience, but also just shows like, it's totally okay, it is 100% Okay, to have that reaction to that idea, or even the idea of conversion when it's just like plunked on your on your lap for the first time. It is against everything we've been told. It's against everything that we know about relationships about love about, you know, value and and how are we supposed to be in a relationship? What is the relationship supposed to be like, right? So it is so a, okay, if the idea of conversion is not just sprawling and sprouting out of you? And you're like, Yeah, that's exactly what I can do. So just it is okay to have a slow reaction to it.

Jacqueline

Yes, it takes a long time. It takes a really long time. It took me years in my within my marriage, to be able to get to a place of feeling genuinely happy for her. I mean, I fake the funk for a while. And I was like, that sounds great, which was what it needed to happen at the time. And then at some point, I actually felt that way. But I still feel that way. I still feel that way. My partner was hung out with a friend the other day, and they hung out late into the night and they were sharing stories and all these things. And there was a part of me that was like, a little uptight about it. And but I That's my stuff. That has nothing to do with her. There's no threat there. There's nothing like that. And so I instead had to show, you know, made sure that I showed up from a place of that sounds great. I want to hear about it. Tell me more. So years into the practice, and it is it's still hard. And so that's the question. If it is hard to practice and maybe even hard to stomach, then why is conversion something that we should attempt to embody? That was the question that Dr. twine was set up to answer. Dr. Murray twine is the leading scholar and researcher in the topic of conversion and non monogamous relationships. She's the founder of love insights, a mindful dating and relationship coaching practice that helps people from all backgrounds and relationship styles create vibrant and intentional love lives. If you stay tuned to the end, you're going to find out how you can get a free 30 minute exploration coaching session with Dr. twine.

Effy

Also, did you know if you stay to the very end, you get the bloopers from the show. We know you're used to showing up at our best polished by our editor Nina's surgery, but it does take many fumbles, grunts and growls as well as a bunch of singing and laughing to make the show happen. So stay to the end to see behind the curtain. Anyway, back to our conversation with Dr. twine. We started off with the basics. What exactly is compression?

Marie Thouin

That's such a timely question, because while there is no consensus definition, so to speak, you know, it's not in the dictionary yet. But me and a colleague of mine who also researches Compersion we've just been gotten interested by the Springer Encyclopedia of sexual behavior in defining conversion for them. And we actually came up with three different definitions. So the first one is compression is a broad range of positive emotions experienced in relation to one's intimate partners extra dyadic intimate relations. I know that's kind of a mouthful. But basically, it's empathic joy at an emotional level when our partner in a romantic relationship is exploring another relationship with somebody that's also intimate. And then the second definition is a broad range of positive attitudes, thoughts and or actions that are manifested in relation to one's intimate partners, extra dyadic, intimate relations. So that is more of an attitudinal conversion where you might not be feeling an emotional sense of empathic joy, but you are acting as if you are really interpreting your partner being in another relationship as a positive event, and you are supportive of that. And then the third definition is more of a general context, because really, people are starting to use the word conversion for context others other than intimate relationships. So really conversion could refer to empathic joy. So positive emotions, attitudes, thoughts, or actions that are manifested in relation to another person's gratifying experience in really any context.

Jacqueline

I love that I love all three, because first, the fact that it is not just to your point, a feeling that can exist within non monogamy. And I think that we often use it in that space. So I love that it's broader than that. And I love that you separated out, this is what it can feel like, but also, this is what it can look like. Because having been in that experience, certainly myself, there were times where I was doing the thing before I felt the thing, and, and felt bad often too about not feeling the thing, that feeling that like vibrant sunshine, joy, like springing out of me because my wife was going on a date with somebody else, but trying to to show up in a way that showed love and caring. And so I feel seen by that second.

Marie Thouin

Yay, I'm so glad. Yeah. And I do hear that so much from you know, my coaching clients and people I interviewed for my research that, you know, these are two different things. There's this Yeah, attitudinal or cognitive conversion and an action oriented conversion. And then there's the emotional one. And sometimes you have one but not the other. But it's totally valid, and it's great. Totally,

Effy

do you find that one leads the way to the other? Do you find that if you emotionally aren't that but if you had a digital attitude, only get that and you kind of cognitively say, Okay, I'm gonna see the positive in this, I'm gonna lean into this rather than run away from it. I'm going to regulate myself around this. Do you find that? Eventually the emotions catch up?

Marie Thouin

Yes, yeah, definitely. I see it as a spectrum. Really, like there's jealousy on one end. And then there's this embodied Compersion on the other. And in the middle, there is this attitudinal conversion. And oftentimes, yeah, when people are at one end, when they're feeling really jealous, and they're not on board, the best thing to do is to just start being on board cognitively. And it is an adjustment. I mean, we do live in a very mono normative society that infuses in us from the moment we're born, that monogamy is the only way to love and everything else is subpar, or dangerous or harmful in some way. So to start kind of reorganizing our thoughts, and our beliefs around this will take time. And it is a precursor, oftentimes to reorganizing our emotions around this.

Effy

Sure. Yeah. And, um, in that, that makes so much sense and, and aligns with my experience as well. So I love that. It's also what you found in your research, and talking about your research and these amazing definitions that you arrived at. Can you tell us a little bit about the research that you did?

Marie Thouin

Yeah, my initial research was as part of my PhD program a few years ago, where I answered two research questions. One was, what is conversion? How does it show up in people's lives? And the second question was, what are the factors that hinder or promote Compersion in consensually non monogamous relationships? So what I did is I interviewed 17 individuals who are in consensually non monogamous relationships, and I asked them, How do you experience it? What when do you experience it? When do you not experience it? What are those contexts that influence your experience of conversion? And I know it sounds like a really small sample, but it was enough to reach a point of saturation, which is the point where you collect enough data that your themes and your answers to those questions are pretty much answered the same way and there's no new themes occurring. So that's a you know, technical term in qualitative research, so to speak. where you have enough data for an initial theory?

Jacqueline

I'm wondering if we can dig into those two questions that you explored? What are the factors that promote conversion and what enters it?

Marie Thouin

Yeah, absolutely. That's really the meat of my research. And I did a second research project with a couple of colleagues that also answered that question. And the results were really congruent with my initial PhD dissertation. So that's really good news. So I found six different factors that promote conversion. And you know, the flip sides are the factors that hinder conversion. But let me start with the factors that promote it. And there are in three categories. One is individual factors. The other one is relational factors. And the third is social factors. So there's two different factors in the individual category. The first one is a personal commitment to consensual non monogamy, values, and mindsets. So to be mentally on board with the idea of non monogamy as something that you want in your life, and it making sense to you like yes, I actually really do want my partner to have sexual and romantic autonomy. I really do think that jealousy is not something to be entitled about, entitled to control people with but really something that I need to figure out for myself, like, Where's it coming from? How do I heal? How do I love in a way that is more freeing, so to be mentally on board with those values, and those ideas was a really big factor that promotes comfort. Number two, in the individual factors category was a sense of inner security and comfort. So people who have really high self esteem and also who have high levels of self care, so you know, sleeping well, having a really good social life outside the relationship, or relationships, being able to eat well take care of oneself really well, and create a sense of inner security was also a very big predictor for conversion.

Effy

I mean, those two make so much sense to me when I hear you say them like that. Because interestingly, in my coaching practice, I say to people, I can help you with all sorts of things. One thing that I don't have a solution for is willingness, you have to arrive willing, and then we can like find our way. But if you're coming in, resistant, you know, and resistant to a point of like, I don't actually want this right, rather than sort of apprehensive, like, I don't know, I want to learn versus I don't want anything to do with this. It's really hard to get over that first hurdle. So you know, that the thing that we talk about all the time, like, Are you willing, and only you know, that you're willing or not. So I think that's make sense to me when I hear you say that. And then in the security piece, I can speak for myself the times that I am, I feel good about myself. Compersion comes easy. When I'm in the struggle, I know this stuff, so well. I know. Like, that's how I operate. I just can't find it in me, you know? So yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

Marie Thouin

Yeah. So moving on, then to the relational factors, there's three of them. One is a sense of security and connectedness within the relationship. So people who don't have any secrets, who are really, really able to trust each other and communicate freely about their other relationships, definitely have more space for that positive empathy. Conversely, of course, if there's deception happening, or lack of communication, lack of trust, it's really, really hard to feel compassion. So people definitely said that if they are in a good place in their relationship, and they feel like love is kind of a given. They're not sensing a threat to that love and that connectedness and that safety within the relationship. It's much easier to feel Compersion than if they don't,

Jacqueline

yeah, that resonates with me. Yes, I mean, in my partnerships, we would call it, you know, does your tank field does your tank feel full. And there were absolutely times where my relationship tank did not feel full. And so to watch, then, somebody else's tank get filled up, when I was feeling dry and empty was hard. And so I think in those moments, if I felt like to your point, good and comfortable, and we spent time together, and I feel connected and that trust is there, then go off be joyful, but if I feel like we have not connected, we haven't been intimate, we haven't gotten on dates we haven't. Then there is that like, How dare you give that away to somebody else when I am here deprived? So certainly that that resonates with my experience. Yeah.

Marie Thouin

Oh, yeah. And I love that analogy of having a full tank. Yeah, it's like if your cup is overflowing, yes, you can feel generous, it's a lot easier to feel generous. So the next relational factor is the connection. In order to regard that you have towards your minimum or minimum or being your partners at or partner. So if you like your meta more, if you respect your meta more if they respect you, if you think highly of them, but maybe not feel threatened by them, conversion is gonna come a lot easier than if you don't like them or you think they're maybe not a good influence in your partner's life. If they don't treat your partner very well, then, of course, you're not gonna be able to feel much Compersion.

Effy

I have a question about that. What about people who want to be in very neutral territory without metamorphose, I don't want to get to know them at the same time. They're not threatened by them. They don't necessarily want to invest energy effort into that relationship. At the same time, they don't want to put any barriers in that relationship either. So they kind of want to take this neutral stance towards their metamorphose, how does that work out? Well,

Marie Thouin

if you feel from your partner that they are having a good, positive, healthy relationship with that metaphor, it doesn't necessarily matter if you're not having a direct relationship with that minimum or so you're still going to have an indirect relationship with them. And if that indirect relationship is positive, then you can still experience a lot of conversion. Okay, so yeah.

Effy

What is the distinction between seeing your partner be treated well by their other partner? And seeing that is conversion versus a threat? Do you know what I mean?

Marie Thouin

Right, right. That is such a good distinction. And I mean, it's a very complex ecosystem of factors. And it could then come back to the first individual factors of the you feel secure within yourself, or even do you feel secure in your relationship with your partner? That probably would make the difference between whether it's a threat or a plus?

Jacqueline

That makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah.

Marie Thouin

And also kind of feeling into what their intentions are with your partner and your metamorphose intentions are like, do you feel like your Metamora is trying to snag your partner away? And that's why they're treating them so well? Or are they respecting the boundaries of your established relationships and treating them well within that container?

Jacqueline

Yes, yes, that also resonates? Yes, that's all Yes.

Marie Thouin

And then there's the perception of benefits received by your partner is that a relationship benefits to them, but also to your relationship? And to you. So if you feel that your partner having another partner is allowing you to have a richer social life, or a richer sexual life or a richer emotional life, maybe you feel like it's allowing you to then go explore other partnerships, which you couldn't if they didn't have another partner, or maybe it would be more uncomfortable, then that is likely to lead to a lot of conversion?

Effy

Also, if they are allowing you to have some free time, some Yeah, alone, guilt free, guilt free, burden, free, free time for yourself, when they're like, oh, for their partner, you're just like, okay, they're taken care of. I'm just gonna hang with myself. For sure, yeah. Yeah. And

Marie Thouin

you know, maybe they want to go dancing, or they want to go camping. And you don't really want to do that. But you don't want to feel like you're somehow keeping your partner from doing it. Like yes, please someone else.

Effy

Yes. I'm not interested in going camping ever, unless we're going to Burning Man, but please, find people to go camping with and have fun. And it makes me think about something that we talk a lot about on the show, which is about new relationship, energy redistribution, then there is a way of really using that new relationship energy as this like revival energy that then can really boosts like, all the relationships in your life, you know, that spring in your step can really have an impact on your core relationships or legacy relationships as well.

Marie Thouin

Yeah, that's right. So maybe this other relationship is helping your partner grow in ways that are really beneficial to you and your relationship. Maybe, you know, like that other relationship is helping them become more self expressed and, and develop aspects of themselves that you hadn't seen before. And then you get to enjoy that. And that can be a really big plus.

Jacqueline

Yeah, in the beginning of my relationship, or rather, in the beginning of my wife's relationship with her other partner. Watching that new relationship energy was really difficult. We were several years into our relationship in our marriage and I was seeing the my Metamora receive gifts. And there were walks in the park and they were dinners up on rooftop bars and all these things that I did not think were accessible anymore to me, but now we're accessible to somebody else. And so at first, it definitely showed up like, like jealousy and envy. And I wanted both, I think I wanted that even if you have it, and sometimes I want it and you can't have it. And what we were able to do based on FES coaching was do some redistribution. So I started to receive more gifts than I had before I started to go on more dates with my wife than we had before. And so this frustration that I had actually then turned to conversion, which I became really grateful, because gift giving is not a part of my love language. And so it wasn't something that I was looking out for. But in seeing the joy that it brought my Metamora and then starting to experience that myself, it became something that I started to value in my relationship that I would not have otherwise. And so it was some it really was able to be turned around based on the redistribution that happened there. Because it was all jealousy before that. Yeah.

Marie Thouin

I love that. You know, I was also talking to a an expert on polyamory and aging the other day and asking her about just kind of how does polyamory change with age, you know, when you crossed 7075 years old. And she was saying that sometimes there's extra compression that happens, because maybe there's more people to take care of one another. The nuclear family system in the monogamy system really is hard when you're aging, and you're taking care of someone who starts having health problems. But if you have more than one partner, and there's more people to take care of someone with aging or health conditions, then there can become person there as well. Like, wow, thank God, my Metamora is there to help with my with my partner. Yes,

Effy

absolutely. That makes sense. I mean, I've seen very similar attitudes in childcare. Yeah, a really good friend of mine, they have a third, they're a couple and they have occurred, and they and she dates another person, and that relationship is going for years and years and years. And he is a big part of their son's life. And anywhere from babysitting to learning to skate, you know, all the things that he brings into their son's life is immeasurable. They it is you see it, you see it you when they're together, you see it, it's also great peace of mind that they look forward to spending time together, so they can go off in a couple and do things. So I see that with childcare as well. And the other thing that came up for me, and I've been on both sides of this is when you have another partner or your partner has another partner, sometimes the feedback that you're giving your partner align, right. So, you know, if I'm having my partner telling me I'm you know, maybe you know, them too critical, right, which is something that comes up, and then I can be like, well, that's That's your opinion, you know, I do me, that's your opinion, right? And then you get another partner saying, you know, what, if he, you can be a little critical. And now, my partner and my other point, I know, giving me the same feedback. And I think that support can actually cause like, Compersion, because they're like, You see, I'm not alone, that you need to check in with yourself. You know, and I think we don't think enough about that. I think, actually, if you think about it, like so far of all the things that we've said, this is the piece that we're lingering on about, because I think the Metamora relationships are the least explored relationships, the potential in them, I think are the least explored. And I love that it comes up in your research is one of the factors like you need to explore that relationship. You don't have to invest in it and be like besties with your metaphor. But spending time on exploring that relationship, both through your partner and also directly through you think is immensely valuable.

Marie Thouin

Yes. And actually, it's so interesting that you're saying that because there was a subsequent piece of research that came out last year, about which one of these factors are the most impactful. And it turned out that the Metamora factor was the most impactful.

Jacqueline

Interesting, interesting, so

Marie Thouin

more so than the individual factors or anything else? Yeah. And so the last factor is actually a social factor. And that's how we feel held or not in community. And that has a lot to do with mono normativity and how we live in a greater social sphere that really promotes monogamy as the only way to love successfully. But people who are non monogamous definitely need to have other people besides just them and their partners and their metaphors to kind of validate that identity and that choice and that lifestyle, and having a supportive community have role models of people they can talk to have media like podcasts like yours and books and shows that also kind of reinforce so that new paradigm of relationship is very supportive to conversion, because conversion is about that emotional expression, it's about feeling really in line with who you are and what you do, and letting yourself feel happy that your partner is engaging with some at a relationship. And it's harder to feel happy. If all you're hearing from the outside social circles that you're in is, there's something wrong with you?

Jacqueline

Mm hmm. Yeah, it's again, a core value of ours in terms of changing the noise for exactly that reason that there is so much noise around us that is making us feel a certain way. And if we can start to attune into a different type of noise into something that really supports who we are, it makes a difference. And I also imagine that if we are looking to our partner to feel the need, that a community really should, that we shouldn't be getting in relationship with friends and others, that that actually makes it more difficult. There's more pressure than to extract everything that you can from there. But if some of your needs are being met by community, if you feel seen and held by community, then you're, then you don't need all of that from your partner, which gives them spaciousness for them to give to others and for you not to feel deprived.

Marie Thouin

Mm hmm. Yeah. It lessens any sense of threat and feeling like, wow, if something happened with my partner, and they fell in love with someone else, and they left me, that would be the end of my world.

Jacqueline

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I'm wondering then how so we've been talking about this as relates to non monogamy. And certainly, this resonates with Fe and I, how important is conversion within non monogamous relationships?

Marie Thouin

That's such a great question. And I want to circle back to those first different definitions of how oftentimes people have attitudinal conversion. They're very supportive of their partners being with somebody else, and they're not going to get in the way, they're actually going to support that in different ways. And I think that's really important in non monogamy to have that kind of baseline support. But does the emotional or embodied conversion really changed the quality of your relationship? I think that's more of a bonus. It's great when that happens, but I would definitely not think that your relationship is not good enough. If you don't experience that.

Unknown Speaker

That's nice permission to give folks because I do think that within non monogamous spaces, there is a feeling if I don't have that I'm doing something wrong. And so I think for you to say, you know, that it's great, that would be wonderful. It would make things better, and there's nothing wrong with you or your relationship. If that doesn't come naturally to you. Yeah.

Effy

Yeah, at the same time, I'm finding all these points that you're you've discovered, and you've beautifully analyzed, it's a roadmap. You don't have to get to conversion. But if you work on each of these factors, the quality of your relationship is going to improve, you might not get to this goal of like comparsion, that, you know, he just like, oh, but it gives you a roadmap on what are the things that you can work on to really improve your relationships and how you feel on a relationship as

Marie Thouin

well. Absolutely. You know, like, I love that you just said that it's very much what I was writing in the conclusion of my dissertation is that this is not just about the goal, or the Yeah, at the end of the road being Compersion. It's really a process. And this roadmap is a roadmap to relationship satisfaction.

Jacqueline

I'm curious about if you have any experience with the poly mono mismatch, as they say, you know, one person wants to open up the relationship the other person identifies as as monogamous, but maybe, you know, feels like they have to or at some point want to try to explore it, but they themselves are not going to be participating. It makes me think about your first point around being mentally on board. And so I'm just interested in curious if you have any experience around what conversion may or may not look like within that partnership.

Marie Thouin

Yeah, it's tricky because there are people who are poly under duress or PUD. And, of course, that is a killer of Compersion. When you feel like you've been forced into this or kind of like, well, you've not really chosen that for yourself, because you think it's a great relationship style to be in, but you're just really choosing it out of fear of losing your partner or really feeling like you're compromising on your own values. It will be very tough. And yet there are situations where people who are mono poly, the monogamous party is really on board, maybe they're more introverted, maybe they're more busy. Maybe they don't really want another partner at the moment, but they're fully wholesomely supportive of their partner, being with somebody else and actually, maybe they feel like It's beneficial because that gives them time to have their alone time or more work time or whatever they want to do. And they see the benefit in it. So in those cases when someone is not Polly under duress, but they're actually just really comfortable with the relationship structure of being little poly, there can be absolutely a lot of confusion. Yeah,

Effy

I think it's worth just reiterating this something that we do on the show all the time is that just because one person is polyamorous and the other one's monogamous, it doesn't mean an automatic mismatch, which is what I'm hearing you say that it's a mismatch if it's not working. But for plenty of people as working, it allows the other partner who's not interested in other relationships, time and energy and, you know, potential to like you said, maybe for invest in a career more, you know, they're more of an extrovert and all that kind of stuff. So there's definitely it I think it's a misconception that is always a mismatch. And I love what you're saying that actually, it doesn't. It doesn't have to be.

Marie Thouin

Yeah, yeah, depends on people's philosophies. There are people who are monogamous, but de facto monogamous. Their philosophy is that love is not limited. And love doesn't have to just live in a singular exclusive relationship. It's just that monogamy works better for them in context. But then there's people who are really invested in the ideology and philosophy of monogamy where they really do feel like for them to open their heart fully, they need to have that exclusivity. So I think that it's better, you know, we should frame that as a philosophical mismatch more than like, what actually is every person's sexual and romantic behavior?

Jacqueline

Yes. I love that distinction.

Effy

Yes. Makes a lot of sense. I also noticed another factor in that is some people have a deep need for mutuality, which can look like seeking fairness. So sometimes they oppose the idea, not on a philosophical level that we just discussed, but more like it's not fair. You know, it doesn't feel equal. You know, and I talk a lot about, let's search for synergy over symmetry. But I think for some people, that symmetry is really, really important. And I think sometimes it's just about that.

Jacqueline

Yeah, we've seen that with folks who are just opening up their relationship and one partner is on many more dates than the other, the other cannot land the date for whatever reason, and their partners off on dates. And they may have been the one who said, let's open up, but now it doesn't feel fair, it doesn't feel right, I do not have conversion, you're like shut it down, shut it all down. Yeah.

Effy

Or that one people has more of an appetite, more of an extrovert and they can go on three dates a week. And then the other person is like, even if I had all those people, I can barely manage like one day to week, it feels not fair, or it feels, you know, not equal, but it's not, it's for no other reason, then people just have a different style, you know, and it still can be jarring. So all these factors are in play.

Marie Thouin

Mm hmm. Right? I mean, it is so normal to feel insecure when you know, your partner is going on many more dates than you are. And it is a very deep undertaking to face that kind of unequal illness. And some people might take that as a challenge. I'm like, Okay, I need to find that security within myself at a much higher degree than I've ever had to. And some people, you know, might just want to say like, okay, let's establish some relationship agreements around this, like, if you're dating to people, and I'm not dating anyone, you know, like, let's see if we can make it more equal. And, you know, to kind of adjust the relationship structure to protect people's feelings. And I don't think there's like a one way that's necessarily always better. I think, usually people need a combination of agreements to help them just catch up with the emotional intensity of those situations, but also take some responsibility of doing their own work internally and emotionally so that they build that sense of inner security as much as possible over time.

Jacqueline

Yeah. I'd love to go back to the third definition that you gave us that talked outside of the context of non monogamy and ask about that, that you again, to your point, we often speak about it within this context, but can you talk about the application of conversion outside of open relationships?

Marie Thouin

Oh, yeah. I love that. Because, well, first of all, I want to mention that there is a word in Sanskrit that basically is equivalent to confusion. It is the word mudita. And it means sympathetic joy. And in Buddhism, it's one of the four qualities of the enlightened person along with equanimity, compassion, and loving kindness. And the idea of sharing somebody's Joy really means that you extricate yourself from a zero sum paradigm of human Live to a paradigm of we are all interconnected. So your joy is my joy, more for you is more for me, not less. And I think that to live with that awareness that, you know, ideally, we would feel like that we would share other people's joy when they're experiencing joy is really educational, it can be a really great guide to what is going on inside of me. And when I'm not feeling happy for somebody else's joy, what is blocking it? What is actually happening? I use it myself with my friendships, like when I'm jealous of someone, or I feel like someone maybe like didn't treat me the right way I find myself not wanting to share their joy when something good happens to them. And then it's a big flashlight to myself to look at, oh, how do I come back to a sense of connection that's big enough and unobstructed enough that I would actually really want the best for them? Yes, yeah.

Effy

I think we've talked about this before. And just for people who are looking for it, there are mudita meditations, just like their loving kindness, meditations, there are mudita meditations that you can find. And if it's your thing, I do recommend that there is a you know, you can sit on and meditate on mudra. And something you can cultivate. And it is it is considered to be the hardest of them all hardest of the four. So, yes, so it is a it is a big goal that you're going towards.

Jacqueline

That's interesting. And I wonder too, then going back to the idea of changing the noise and thinking about what you're hearing within your community, how cultural differences apply here, because I'm thinking very much within the American mindset, there's a scarcity mindset of you can't have any, because I need it all for myself. Because what if I run out? And so if that's the mindset that you have, if that's the community, if that's what you're hearing, and seeing, that's absolutely going to emerge within your relationship, and you're gonna bring that scarcity mindset, and that will impact what you think your partner is giving away to others. And so are there opportunities for us to find things from other cultures, other communities, other religious practices, etc, to be able to step more into abundance? That's what I hear you all saying,

Marie Thouin

huh? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think that it is, it's a very great challenge for for all of us, because not only do we live in a society that has this zero sum mindset, where more for you is less for me, we all have a history of you know, like, oftentimes trauma with either a small tea or a big tea, where we just felt unloved or not loved enough, in some ways. Like, even when you take rivalry between siblings, I was just talking with a client yesterday who felt like her brother had given had been given a lot more privileges than her because he was a boy. And that really anchored a zero sum mindset from a very, very young age. So I think to Yeah, to borrow from Buddhism, and from cultures and from practices that tried to kind of replace this paradigm, with an idea that, okay, we actually are really in are connected. And, of course, we need to put that in context with like, well, I need to fill my own plate, I need to be responsible for filling my own tank, like you said earlier, and making sure that I take care of myself and I take care of my needs as much as possible. There's just so much to learn.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, thinking about a feast analogy of the roadmap that so much of the work that you have done is that I'm thinking now okay, what are the roadblocks? What are the hindrances that could get in the way of conversion showing up in one's relationship?

Marie Thouin

Well, we've touched on many already. But if we go back to those six factors, really we can look at what are the opposites of those factors. So for example, in the ideology, or the mindset from being poly under duress is a big block, not being on board or having this internalized mono normativity. Having these messages still inside of us kind of blocking us from fully saying yes to non monogamy at a mindset level is a huge block. And then when we look at the security within oneself, again, like having an empty tank and feeling that maybe we don't compare favorably to other people, and we don't feel beautiful, we don't feel attractive, we don't feel valuable. That really blocks conversion, because how can we feel generous when we feel like we're starting from a deficit? It's a lot harder. Again, at the relational level, I think deception or secrecy or not sharing openly. Oftentimes people are afraid to share openly because they don't want to hurt their partner's feelings. And that's tricky because yes, we want to be kind. Yes, we want to take care of each other's feelings. But it can backfire. When we withdraw information when we don't tell our partners the whole truth, and they end up finding out about it, that can really lead to breaches of trust and the opposite of compassion, really, because we're like, Well, you didn't tell me what actually was going on for you. So how can I feel happy for you like, I just feel like, insulted because you didn't tell me the truth.

Effy

I hear this so much with my clients in sessions. And the two things that come up for me one is a mission is betrayal, which is something that we need to agree on. Our mission is betrayal, you might not be lying. But our mission is in this in the same realm. And with that, there are some tricky lines that we need to get clear about the line between privacy and secrecy. We all deserve privacy. And we also need to be mindful of how much of the story is ours to tell. So how much of what's you know what's happening with your other partner? That is okay for you to share within the boundaries of privacy. So it's not easy for sure. It's something that I think is probably one of the hardest things to navigate. I get this question all the time. How much do I tell? How much do I want to know? How do I tell? How do I know when my partner is going to want to hear something and not want to hear something? So I just want to name it to say it is important. And it's tricky.

Marie Thouin

Yes, it's not an exact science. Yeah. And then with the Metamora factor, again, like if we feel like our Metamora is toxic in some way, or wanting to steal our partner away, which you know, they, they name it cowboys. Maybe someone who has ulterior motive of stealing your partner and being monogamous with them, or just someone that you feel is so not at your level or not at your partner's level. I've heard that many times too. Like feeling like, wow, my partner is choosing someone that I would have never chosen for them. I feel like it's kind of reduces my value, because because the fact that they chose this person that I don't respect, it reflects on me. Yeah. Yeah. So that can block conversion, or, again, like the opposite of the perception of benefits received from the other relationship. If you feel like actually there's no benefits, it's actually taking away from your plate. relationally. That can be a really big block.

Jacqueline

Yeah, I think, you know, I'm gonna go back to what you said at the start. It was a smaller sample size, potentially, but you found saturation pretty quickly. And I think that this conversation continues to prove that to be the case, that as you're going through it, I think they're like, yeah, yeah, that one that went to that one. They also yes, that that as well, based on your work, or their recommendations that you give, for example, for folks to sit down and do it an inventory around these things, both with them first for themselves, and then with their partners. Is there some now that now knowing this, essentially, you listen to this podcast, you write down these six different factors? What can happen next? What it what can you do with this information?

Marie Thouin

Mm hmm. Yeah, thanks for asking. Actually, I do have a spreadsheet that I share for

Jacqueline

you. Right now, absolutely include that in the show notes.

Marie Thouin

What is conversion that calm and you will have a little pop up that says like, download my conversion ebook. And I actually named those factors, I named some of the myths and realities around conversion. And I do have a simplified version of this spreadsheet that I give my clients on there. So you can start there. And it will ask you like, yeah, how do you think you score on each one of those factors? And it will tell you, where is the bottleneck? Sure. What can I work on or, I mean, there's things sometimes you cannot really necessarily work on them, like a if your partner is choosing a metamorph that you just don't really like you might not be able to change that. I mean, you you might be, you might be able to develop a better relationship with them. But sometimes, there's just things that might stay a bottleneck and you just have to accept it and come to peace with it. You might never feel at most Compersion for that specific relationship. But at least kind of knowing where you are strong and where the weaker points are, is super empowering.

Jacqueline

That's fantastic. I think I am gonna go to your website. Immediately after this. I'm going to be downloading the ebooks and the spreadsheets and all of the things I love me some tools, but this was really great. I think that it is something that feels clear and not necessarily easy to do. but it does really give some some clear steps around what it is that we can do, both for our relationship, but also our personal happiness. You know, it feels like you know, having been in those moments myself that not only was it difficult for my partnership, but just difficult to be inside of my own body, and feeling all of those all of that pain and all of that jealousy and to have the lightness of conversion definitely did make a difference. So really interesting work. Really interesting. Thank

Marie Thouin

you. Thank you so much. Yeah, I love that conclusion. You know, I feel like it's overall, if we want to really simplify it in a couple of sentences. I think conversion is about finding a way to open our hearts when it's not easy.

Effy

Oh, that's a good way to put it. That's when it's not easy. And when it's not what you've been told is available. I think that's also the piece I think it is. The opposite of compassion is what we've been told in society, like, the idea that you might have a good relationship with the idea that your partner's dating somebody else can you fathom even having a good relationship with that person is like, so socially scorned upon that you can't even it's you have to fight against the current to have your heart open. Because the current is like shutting it down really hard. So I think yeah, you're absolutely right.

Marie Thouin

Yeah, and that's why I think compression is so powerful as a concept, it has the power to really throw a wrench in the wheel of model normativity. Because it does dismantle the assumption that we've been told that, yeah, we can't be happy when our partner is engaging with somebody else romantically or sexually. It's really kind of reprograms our assumptions around love and what's possible.

Jacqueline

Yeah, yeah. Before we end our time with you, we would love to just ask you a few questions just to get to know you a little bit better. So we want to start with the first question, which is, what is one piece of advice that you would give to your younger self about love sex or relationships?

Marie Thouin

Be willing to be heartbroken for the sake of love? Don't hide?

Effy

Okay, sure. That's like hard advice. I'm telling myself still. Long hide? Yes, yes. Okay, what is one romantic or sexual adventure on your bucket list?

Marie Thouin

You know, I don't really have a lot personally. But professionally, interestingly enough, one thing on my bucket list is to become a sex illogical body worker to do some more somatic work at the central level with people to really explore the intersection of eroticism and healing. Yeah,

Effy

yes. Yes, we can make some recommendations.

Jacqueline

Yeah, yes. And when you do more of that work, we'd love to hear about that, because that is something we can continue to explore both on the show and personally interested in how do you challenge the status quo?

Marie Thouin

Well, I think my work on conversion is doing its part to this mental model. normativity.

Effy

Yeah, for sure. I agree. Yes. And you're with us with a bunch of curious people. And we are wondering what you're curious about Lady.

Marie Thouin

Everything, everything all the time. But yeah, particularly, I think the future of humanity. We live in such unprecedented times with so much at stake ecologically, socially, economically, and how is this humanity going to figure it out? Are we going to finally create societies that are based on mutual care? Or are we not very, very curious and, you know, eager to do my part and nervous and, and just really excited to see what's going to happen?

Jacqueline

I think one pathway towards that is conversion. So yes, yeah. Yeah, thank you for not only within our relationships, helping us see a roadmap but potentially bigger than that for society. Yeah. A real pleasure. Really nice having this conversation with you. Appreciate your work. Gonna go get that spreadsheet right now. Many things hurry. Thank you.

Marie Thouin

Oh, thank you so much. So good to talk to you.

Jacqueline

Dr. twine is offering a free 30 minute exploration session for curious Fox listeners. For your free session. Visit bit.ly backslash curious about conversion. If you want to learn more about Marie twine and find resources on the practice of conversion, then you can visit her website what is conversion.com or check her out at Instagram. Love underscore insight underscore dating. If you want to weigh in on the topic of conversion or share your experiences giving or receiving conversion or just want to connect with other foxy listeners, Head to facebook and join our Facebook group at we are curious foxes. If you find Our episodes interesting, helpful or even funny, then please share a podcast with a friend quickly rate the show, leave a comment, and subscribe on Apple podcast or follow us on Spotify and Stitcher. Only a few seconds of your time has a big impact for us. And our beautifully colored website is filled with reading lists, blog posts, past episodes, all of the things that you need to indulge in your curiosity around Love, Sex and Relationships you can visit us at We are curious boxes.com to support the show, join us on Patreon. At we're curious boxes, where you can find many episodes, podcasts extras that couldn't make to the show, and over 50 videos from educator led workshops. Go to patreon at weird curious foxes. And finally, let us know that you're listening by sharing a comment a story or a question. You can email us or send us a voice memo to listening at we're curious foxes.com Or you can record a question for the show by calling us at 646-450-9079

Effy

This episode is produced by Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla with help from Yağmur Erkişi. Our editor is Nina Pollock, who delights in our joy, particularly when she gets to capture our mistakes and laughters in the outtakes our intro music is composed by dev Saha we are so grateful for that work, and we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends. I think this is the first time I'm recording standing up actually be a good experience. Maybe I'm just gonna be like this is

Jacqueline

standing up is good. I would want to do that and have a mic like set and then I could just use my hands and then that's it. Now we're in magic town. If you want to see me just even we're gonna get it right this time. No if you want to

Effy

I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Jacqueline

Okay, okay, I'm gonna do this.

Effy

Cruise full course gas is and will never be the last word on. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic. We solely aim to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind, and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends.

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