Ep 147: Couple Privilege, Hierarchical Relationships and Valentine's Day

artwork by the talented @rorymidhani

What is couple privilege? How does it differ from hierarchy in relationships? How does it affect relationships? How can we design our relationships with privilege and hierarchy in mind?

In this revised episode, Effy and Jacqueline reflect on couple privilege and hierarchy in relationships on Valentine’s Day when these dynamics can really be accentuated and exasperated. They share suggestions on how to elevate our relationships beyond these limitations and nurture ethical connections across all our relationships. 

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Curious Fox @wearecuriousfoxes
Effy Blue @coacheffyblue
Jacqueline Misla @jacquelinemisla

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TRANSCRIPT:

Effy

Hey, Fox listeners. This time last year, we dropped an episode on Valentine's Day that we think is still very relevant and important for those of us who are negotiating non traditional relationships. So we thought we'd run it again, if you are new to the show, enjoy. If you're a longtime listener, stick with it. We think it's a good reminder.

(intro)

Hello, hi. Hi. Hi. Hello. I'm curious about curious about I'm curious about cute is about building open, authentic, loving relationship? I'm curious about jealousy. I'm curious about polyamory. I just mean that you're fucking all the time. How can I tell my parents that my partner is already married and curious about how do you know when you're too busy to have another relationship? I'm curious about dominant and subordinate relationship. I'm curious about sexual health. How can relationships evolve with people as they grow and change? Before we jump into this conversation, I just need to make a note. My audio during my conversation with Effie wasn't great. And when we say change the noise. That's not what we mean. Instead, I am dealing with a few tech issues, but we are working it out. But we did not want to rob you of this conversation and this content. So hopefully, you can let us slide on the audio for this one. And really just listen for the conversation. Enjoy the episode.

Effy

Welcome to the curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.

Unknown Speaker

And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today, we're talking about couples privilege, and the experience of auxilary partners.

Effy

So before we delve into that, I just want to name that we've had yet another of my favorite can I say favorite? I say that would rolling eyes. Favorite holiday is Valentine's Day.

Unknown Speaker

You love you some Valentine's Day.

Effy

I have so many problems with Valentine's Day, it's almost cliche how much a dislike this holiday, just what it does to our society, to our understanding of relationships about love, and I find it so destructive. Then I just read one about it almost every year. And now that I have a platform like try to stop me everyone.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, I was gonna say, if you want to hear Effies full first of all your full dig down deep into the history of Valentine's Day, then all of your opinions about Valentine's Day. And then actually we snuck in some strategies for how you can celebrate Valentine's Day. If you're non monogamous relationships, then go to Episode 59 of our podcast because you're gonna get your fill, you're gonna get all of the expertise that you can handle.

Effy

So here's the thing, like I want to, I want to make a nuanced note here, if I may, since this is a podcast platform, I hopefully can. So the original again, jump back onto episode 59. To understand the origins of Valentine's Day, here's the thing, the oranges of Valentine's Day It's so me it's like the butchery and and ritual and almost almost dancing naked in the woods, you know as a part of this special day. Like the origins of it just just I love the idea of it. I love it. I really do wish we handled those pagan St Valentine's Day celebrations then count me in all day, every day I'll be at the front of the the parade and warm for it. However, Valentine's Day as of today just sucks. It is so sterile and cliche and predictable and boring and entirely commercial that it adds to my annoyance with it because the roots of it is just sounds so awesome. And then you look at it today you're like Come on everyone

Unknown Speaker

that define so much so many things that had such promise at some point and destroyed

Effy

it. Con I don't know I feel very strongly about it. But what about you what did you do on my own time

Unknown Speaker

say I didn't really do anything i so i bought candy for the people in my life because that's the thing you do. I did that I was not with my partner for Valentine's so I hid the candy in my drawer and then that morning as they happy Valentine's look in my drawer so it was like surprise candy and then from my wife and daughter I just like put it on the table and we kept bouncing say there's candy. That's it. Well actually no, that's not true. Then in the morning I made her cheat pancakes for me. My daughter, but that that's really our commitment to celebrate all of the holidays in big ways. Like we want as much celebration and wonder and joy in our life as possible. So we try to make a bigger deal out of holidays and non holidays. So that was that was about more than my love for Valentine's Day. But that's it. There was nothing else Valentine's Day about it.

Effy

Nice. Yeah, I just sat around soaked and just happening around me to be honest, I'll be honest with you. That's kind of what I

Unknown Speaker

do these days. I'm sure lots of people did that. Actually. No, I

Effy

mean, even with like multiple partners, I'm just like that did not today, like I'm not sort of beating anybody, anything. Any of you just know, today, come back another day. I find myself year after year, just like annoyed and grumpy. Generally annoyed and

Unknown Speaker

just like walking around, like yelling at him dead things. And just like, Yeah, I can I can imagine. I'm glad that I met spending time with you.

Effy

Right, but any other day, I'm like the funnest person to have around. But not on Valentine's Day, I'm just just want to kick people shins. And let me add to this. Just to add to my annoyance with Valentine's Day. It's one of those days when coupled privilege and hierarchy and relationships are most pronounced and felt consciously or subconsciously by pretty much everyone, right? People who are couples, people who are not couples, people who are single or solo poly or secondary partners. And secondly, throwing secondary partners with air quotes out there. It's a just to add insult to injury, that you also have this like Valentine's Day just like comes in, like, disrupts everything as far as I'm concerned.

Jacqueline

So honestly, transparently, I'm interested in this conversation as well, because I only I wouldn't say only known it but mainly known couples privilege from being a part of the couple and have unintentionally, sometimes intentionally, not intentionally in a bad way. On purpose, but like intentionally because I was thinking about my role, my core relationship and not thinking about my metaphor, or my partner's ancillary partner, like I have, I have put in positions and I've put in rules and my day, there has been a guideline or to my relationship and agreement are such. And so I know that you have had much more experience within being an exhilarate partner, I think I had very limited at one point, I dated somebody, and on our first date, they told me all the things that we could and could not do, we could not go to a concert together, we could not hang out on Sunday afternoon. And it was a nice little list. And

Unknown Speaker

that was really it. And so I would like to know more and be better and continue to self reflect. And so I'm excited about this conversation for that purpose.

Effy

Sure. Yeah, I've definitely tried all different combinations to what they feel like. And I've spent a considerable amount of time as three partners in different relationships. And, you know, I've got experience, and I can definitely talk to that. I feel like we should just start from the beginning, right? So let's talk about couples privilege, and even stepped back even further to really zoom out and look at privilege. Like what is what is privilege? Exactly. Right. So privilege is about how society accommodates you. Essentially, it is the your lifestyle, your choices, the way that you show up just seems to flow with society's expectation of the norm. Again, I'm throwing the norm opinion up in air quotes, right? It is all about the advantages that you think are normal, right? Because you are deemed to be normal. Okay, so that's kind of what privilege is, what it isn't. Right is it's not really about you, right? It's it's awarded to you. It's not your fault. It's not anything that you've done or thought or said, right. And also, just because you have privilege, it doesn't mean you're taking advantage of it or you're cheating or that you are imposing your privilege on anybody else. Privilege is not inherently bad. It just it really just it is right. When that is applied to couples, and you have couple privilege is essentially the advantages that an established couple has over other relationships or single folks.

Jacqueline

That's really helpful. That makes sense to me. I think what I'm hearing you say is that privilege is not something extra that you get, which is often what people say is that they did not have a privileged life. And I think what they mean is they didn't have an inheritance. They didn't have easy access to their father's IT company. But what I'm hearing you say is, Privilege is just about society, designing something around you Around your straightness around your Smith's sickness around your whiteness around you're monogamous and this and it's not anything that you have to do it just in being because you are are naturally a part of the majority, the design is designed around you.

Effy

Exactly, exactly that the society bends to your will without giving up too much of a fight is really what it is. And when it's applied to couples, it is just the way the society prioritizes couples in its hierarchy. The important thing about privilege that it is it is awarded, right it is awarded. And it is it is actually a passive label, if you will, as opposed to hierarchy, right, which is enforced right by those at the top of the pyramid. Right. So hierarchy is not inherited privilege, but it does show up in relationships. Yes, and a couple privilege is often talked about in the context of hierarchical relationship, and the secondary partner, because it's most pronounced when a new person is added to an existing relationship. Right? The struggle can begin when the couple privilege, and that the advantages of couples marriage are used to hold power off to other partners, right. And that's when hierarchy and couple privilege kind of have different experiences.

Jacqueline

And honestly, that's the majority of the time frankly, when we're talking about non monogamy many times we're talking about the couple opening up the experience of the couple opening up the jealousy that happens within that couple and all those other pieces, even talking about the metaphor as the other person who is a part of it, and not necessarily so it makes sense in what you're describing. And actually, I think what I'm hearing too, is the distinction. So for example, within my situation within my relationships, my privilege with my wife is that we have healthcare, for example, right? That is just given to us by the law, as a result of us being married, my partner, and I don't have that privilege, because that is not what society has designed around us. And then with hierarchy, my partner coming into the relationship with you know, once I was with my wife, there were certain things like we spend my wife and I spend Christmas together that week, or we go every week away for, you know, to a warm place in the winter time or those things are fixed. And she has to adjust around around those things. That's that's an indication of some hierarchy versus privilege from what I understand.

Effy

Exactly. And I think this shows up in like other relationships. So you have a daughter, and I assume that that that relationship is a privileged one and is hierarchically a totem pole. So it doesn't necessarily have to be only in romantic relationships. Yeah, I think it's worth just understanding privilege and hierarchy, and then kind of reflecting on it without a value judgment. And saying, like, how are you handling it? And if we're, the people in it, Agree, Agree or suffer and repressed by it, is really what what we're discussing here, rather than saying privilege is bad hierarchy is bad, you know, and stop it. All right, that's different than what we're seeing him?

Jacqueline

Yes, yes, I agree with you. Right. There's nothing wrong with any with any particular form of relationship construct, as long as the folks in it are happy and thriving. And that is not the case is when we are offering up some suggestions and alternatives to consider.

Effy

Exactly, exactly. And also hierarchy, like, you know, we talked about your relationship with your daughter, right? That kind of has a has a natural hierarchy, right, which in here, it's worth just taking a second to talk about different types of hierarchy. There's a descriptive hierarchy, right. And descriptive hierarchy, or relationships naturally, have a level of closeness in different categories, right. So you can be more emotionally connected with a partner, you could be co parenting with a partner, there's any sort of inherent hierarchy that is kind of natural.

Jacqueline

So in my case, that sounds like that would mean my wife and I own a home together. And so and that existed before my partnership, my other partnership. And so as a result of that there were financial ties, there are acid ties, there are lots of commitments that are natural, in that dynamic as a result of that, that I imagine have some imposition unknowingly, or knowingly for my partner.

Effy

Exactly, exactly. I think you also hit the nail on the head, right? Descriptive hierarchies are often built on commitments, and not necessarily rules and that is an important piece. So you have Clint because you have shared finances with your wife, you have certain commitments, which are gonna be prioritized over something else, right. Again, same with co parenting like that relationship is just going to trump others because of your commitment.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, I mean, that's really real for me, I they finances we did a show on money. And finances is something that I continue to think about and struggle with. But that is something that comes up continually in my in our relationships, because I cohabitate in two different places. And so I share expenses in two different places, but the majority of my income Home goes to my primary household, if you will, my house that I own with my wife. And that's also where my daughter lives. So there's lots of expenses we had just because of her. And so there, there is not an equal proportion, if you will, of money being spent exactly nonsense. Next, we're gonna get a puppy. Lots of money there as well.

Effy

I'm so excited about your puppies are expensive.

Jacqueline

So there's a lot of money that goes there. And then I that's part of why I work so much is because I recognize in my own mind, no one said this to me, in my mind, I'm like, my day job has to afford this household. And so I need to work extra to be able to for that household. And so there's a conversation that I've had in my head that has resulted then in different structures, different new working more different commitments that NMC and it creates tension on both ends. So just naming the existence of what this looks like, in real life is messy and complicated and sometimes yucky feeling.

Effy

Yeah, no, exactly. Exactly. And I think this is, you know, I feel like when you are in a non monogamous relationship, you know, we talk a lot about this idea of a dimly lit room, right? Can you go from a dimly lit room to a stadium sized spotlights on a relationship where there's just more of everything more need for communication, more complication, more negotiation, more conflicts, as well as more love more connection? more fun, more adventure, obviously. And that more is like, across the board from from both both ends of the spectrum, funding games all the way to doom and gloom?

Jacqueline

Yes, yes, yes. And so let me let me take a second because I'm talking about it for again, my hand as being part of a couple. But from the perspective of my of my partner, it is disappointing that we can't get married, it is disappointing, that there is not extra funding available for us to do certain things because my money is tied up in other places, like there are things that because of the way it is inherent in the structure of my marriage, that is a forced imposition on my relationship with her, that then means that she has to live with that and adjust to it and, and become okay with it if she wants to stay in partnership. And that's really I have sat in the pain of that. And I understand how challenging that is. Yeah,

Effy

absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, we talked a lot about descriptive hierarchy. There's also prescriptive hierarchy, right, that structure prescriptive, hierarchical structure is often governed by rules. And often rules of the couple over, the other people might say it's like it's dictated upon. And also prescriptive hierarchies is where we start to start to use the language of primary and secondary relationships to mark the difference in between relationships. And that's when you kind of dictating the structure of all of the dynamics, right. Instead of thinking as a constellation you putting in as a list.

Jacqueline

Yes, yes, yes. Okay. I can think of some examples of that. Certainly, I think when my my partner was with with dating somebody else, they were conversations around fluid exchange, for example. And we certainly had couples privilege in that way. And that was not something that at least in the beginning that felt comfortable somewhere else, or certain days of the week, like not being able to see somebody right before they saw me and those, and those were things that then were imposed upon that other relationship based on our agreements and commitments that were very prescriptive. Right. That was that was that was not just natural, we sat down and had the conversation, I'm sure that I was one who brought some of those things, and was like, hey, in the beginning, this would make me feel more comfortable. And then that was a conversation that she had to have with the person that she was seeing. And they had to adjust to that. So.

Effy

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, often you hear things like, I mean, I, when I work with couples, and they're at the beginning of their journey, they will say things like, I want to meet the person you're dating, dating somebody, after three dates, I want to meet them. And then the conversation very much gets focused on should they meet, how they meet, and all that kind of stuff. And at some point, I find myself almost unanimously across the board, stop and realize like, you do have to ask the other person, you do have to ask if they want to meet you. And you know, before you go, before you go down deep into like, what is it going to look like? How are you going to feel? Should you when should you like what should you talk about? Before you do any of that you need to ask the other person like, do you want to meet my primary partner, my other partner, my nesting partner, whatever, whatever the conversation is, right? Yeah, this is one of those like couple pivot edge being blind to the other person being, you know, the other person being a fully flesh and blood person and not an extra in your, you know, in your show, to kind of think, Okay, well, we know we need to ask that person. How they want to handle this, right?

Jacqueline

Yes, yes. Can we Yeah, I want to pause it for a second because I think that is 100% Right. Two things stand out for me. Number one, this idea that the couple is the protector. Next, and that these other folks are just like characters in their story, even characters like extras, right, exactly. And so we define all the things and you are your script is written based on our story. And that lens then does not to your point see them as a full human being. Right. And I think what actually is challenging is when a couple is opening up, which is often how we're talking about non monogamy, there is probably some impetus to that unless both folks have naturally always felt non monogamous. And now they're finally comfortable saying there has been either a lag in their sexual activity, there's a, there's a distinction between how one person wants to be social or data and flirt and the other person, but there's some gap that needs to be filled. And often, then folks are looking for someone to fill that gap, that sex gap, that kink gap, that romantic gap. And then is that does that mean that the exhilarate partner is is broken down to just that little piece, just a little puzzle piece, it's fitting into my life, and my relationship and not like a whole human being who actually have their own needs and wants and desires for relationship?

Effy

Exactly, the people are not need fulfillment machines, right. And sometimes when people are opening up, they get so focused on their experience they don't like you said they don't think of the other person is a person with their own life. But see, like, oh, there is this need within our relationship, and we're going to use this person to fulfill it. And that is, it can definitely be one of the struggles. And I love that, you know, we already start using the term auxiliary partner, right, which is something that I've been using my practice for years, now, I find the secondary tertiary language to be problematic, because it assumes hierarchy, where there is an inherent hierarchy unless it is agreed upon right? As because I am talking to a couple and I might when we might be talking about their or the partner, by calling it secondary, I am assuming automatic hierarchy, which there doesn't need to be hierarchy. And I think when we have language that automatically offers specific dynamic, then it's very hard for us to think about it in any Trump, right. And that's why I've started talking about I start talking about the other relationship is linear relationships, which speaks more to the constellation, then to the value order of people, as Yeah, so an auxiliary partner just means Oh, this is the CO partner often a couple. Sure, that is the couple of privilege, right. And then there is an auxiliary partner that fits to the structure from the from the outside, and there is no inherent value judgment, there are about value order there. And then all these people, three people, four people, whomever can think through what the design of this relationship is going to look like, without necessarily being top down.

Jacqueline

guess right, they can redesign it so that it doesn't feel that way. Or, yeah, it makes me think of the episode that we did last week with Dr. Professor David Buss and talking about how we categorize people, you're an eight, year seven, now you have a better job, you're a nine, and are tired to put people into into hierarchy. And so it seems similar to that in that we are specifically naming this is what that structure looks like. And as a result, you are secondary to that person who is primary, where the language shift that you're recommending is exhilarate. And core has to do with defining the relationship and not the person. I like that a lot.

Effy

Exactly, exactly. And I think I think it's important. Again, this is not about pro or against privilege or hierarchy. It's just being conscious and dynamic within making some decisions. And understanding this simple dynamic that privilege is given and hierarchy is a choice. And you get to make choices. Yes, yes,

Jacqueline

yes. And I want to go back to what you were just saying about or what we were talking about in terms of being an extra in their story or meeting particular need. That may work for somebody, right, like so for example, right now in my life, if somebody I let's just put it out there, name it, I have no time for other partnerships. There is no bandwidth or capacity. But imagine if they were and someone said, you know, I really just want someone to travel with and have like, amazing romantic sex and you know, okay, that's not do the bills, not help you with childcare, not like have conversations around, you know, who's going to pick up the laundry. Sure, that sounds great. So I imagine that there are times when fitting a particular need or gap actually feeds everyone.

Effy

I think the key is having neutrality, right. I think if one party has knees be not being fulfilled because they are they're just in service of this, this gap. I think that's when it breaks down. And I think if everyone's in alignment, like you said, your lifestyle what you need right now happens to align or your connection maybe I mean, I've definitely We have had people in my life that I've had, you know, intense, amazing, fun, great sexual chemistry is actually connection with, but frankly just wouldn't have dinner with because we just didn't have anything else in common, right? There's not in any is is not a value judgment or think of people, you know good or bad, it's just the connection is what it is. And we honor the connection and enjoy our time together and respectful and kind and, you know, committing communicative to one another. And it's okay, it works, you know, it works. So just because you're doing this one thing with a certain person, it doesn't mean something is wrong with that relationship. The important piece is that there's mutuality across the board. And mutuality,

Unknown Speaker

not just within the relationships, right within the core of who's in those relationships, but mutuality, also with the people around you, because we started off by saying that privilege exists because the culture the norm, society creates it. So that doesn't change just because now the two, the three, the four of you have decided on a different structure.

Effy

So that's a challenge. For sure. Yeah, there's still very much this idea of the real relationship, right. And that can then it might not be felt within the relationship dynamics of the people. But it can definitely be pointed out by other people. They're outside the relationship. And I think it's one of the very few times where I've really struggled in my polyamorous relationship is when I actually felt this myself personally firsthand. When my partner at the time his sister was getting married, whom I met, I met his sister and his sister's fiance, actually spent a weekend together all of us, he, his wife, myself, them, and then we emailed and texted after that, and staying in somewhat of a touch. And then when they were planning a wedding, they decided that it was going to be family only. And they had asked someone partner at the time, it actually said, Yeah, guess what they're getting there Saturday, they're getting married. And you know, it's going to be it's going to be in the UK and kind of gave me the dates. And then, you know, a few days later, he had to come in and be like, Hey, listen, you know about that wedding. So they want to keep it to family only. And they were very clear that it was me and my wife. And that because that the relationship that we had just didn't count as family and didn't wasn't validated, you know, and at that point, we'd been dating for four years, wow, I'd been a best man at their wedding. We're cohabiting practically cohabiting, we're definitely living in the same building, very connected. So at that time, I'd very much considered we did we like, we all considered each other as family. And it was one of those like, rude awakenings or, you know, like just bumping your head against the invisible wall when I was, you know, I was told that our relationships and accounts family, you know, this is couples privilege. This is hierarchy. This is, but it's been it's been applied from the outside. Right. So that's another point of view to consider.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah. How did your former partner react to that, because that's a tough position to be in.

Effy

I think he handled it considerably. Well, given the situation, I think what he learned from it, we all learned from it is that we, at the time, were very much living within our bubble where we had a very supportive community and a lifestyle. And we just weren't expecting something like this. And the reason why, I think where he felt he screwed up was, without getting a confirmation that all three of us were getting to the wedding, he kind of approached me, and wanted to share his joy and excitement and say, Yay, they find this other day and say it's happening. And, and I think what he learned from it is like, oh, I should have I should have like, really made sure that this was something that was available for all of us. And I think he would have approached it differently. If you knew that I wasn't going to be invited. I think we defaulted to, of course, the three of us are going because at that point, that's where that's how our relationship was structured. He felt bad that he didn't do his due diligence. But then, you know, again, it was we were living in a situation where our relationship choices were very much supported and endorsed. And I personally had never come across this idea that our relationship wasn't real enough. Until that point, and then then I had the experience and at the time, it sucked. And then I'm lucky that relationships are also my, my work and it gave me and then I kind of over time I processed that and turned it into insight and a place for empathy and to be able to talk about, hey, by the way, like couple privilege and hierarchy happens from the outside. It doesn't always happen from the inside, right. So allow me to speak to that.

Jacqueline

Yeah. So let's dig into that then that idea of you're right that the the hierarchy and the decisions that are made within relationships of all parts In the relationship impact, certainly not only the construct of that, but how people feel in that. So if you are now listening to this and saying, oh, man, I think unconsciously, I really have been imposing things, I need to do some things differently. Or if you are a partner of someone who is married, or who is in a core partnership, or marrying, you know, engaged with a couple and needing a couple, you may now be hearing this and say, Yes, this doesn't feel good. There are things we need to talk about. So can we dig into that a little bit? What are the conversations that needs to be had? What are some of the things that can be considered?

Effy

For sure? Yeah, I think, you know, we talked about this earlier, I think the most important piece is to realize that auxilary partners are people, not just, you know, extras in your story. And then they have, they need to be considered just like, just like anybody else. And I think that's really, that's really important.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, I remember when Lola Jean did the threesome workshop for us. And that video, I think, is on our Patreon. And in that conversation, she talked about that there's so much dialogue around what the couple wants to experience from the third person in and that they, you know, the wildness or this and that, and they're going to tell that person, all those things. Now, unless it is a sex worker, which is a great way to do that. And then you can say all the things, and they still need to be considered what they want, what they feel, you know, comfortable and their boundaries. But there was no dialogue in the outside world about what that third person wants out of the threesome. And Lola Jean kept definitely emphasizing it that actually, this is a co creation between the three of you, and what you all want to experience together. So I see it in so many different places.

Effy

That's why it's called couple privilege, right? Because it's pervasive. Yeah. That's, that's the whole, that's the whole point. I think the other piece that can be done is to really define and calibrate the availability with all parties, right? What does that mean, to really define the relationship? And what is available in that relationship? And for people to say, okay, like, I can subscribe to that, and it's gonna work for me. And, you know, earlier, you were saying, you know, I'm only available for travel and occasional texting. Right. Great. You're defining something and you're naming something.

Jacqueline

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, even as you're saying that it's making me think beyond certainly, availability in days and hours. But availability emotionally, as well, I remember when my my partner started to date somebody else, as a result of our structure were with each other every other week. And so she had a full week to be able to spend with somebody else. But one at some time on her own, really did prioritize our relationship emotionally. And the person that she was seeing, I think, wanted more emotional connection than she was willing to give. And so it wasn't time wasn't the barrier, she just did not have the emotional availability that the other person wanted from that relationship.

Effy

Yeah, I mean, bandwidth is a thing, right? Like, you know, bandwidth is all the things, it's time energy, emotional focus, a bunch of things. So you what is available is what is available. And by the way, lack of availability is not a bad thing. Right? The idea is not to be fully available at all times, to all people like we do need boundaries. And we this is why the idea of defining and calibrating availability, rather than saying be available all the time, like that's not the point, like availability is not a bad thing. And some people are looking for less availability, right? So in your case, with your partner, she might have actually pursued this relationship before if it was like light and, you know, part time and like didn't really was was with somebody who also wasn't looking for anything deep was looking for these like fun, casual, but familiar and safe ish hookups, right, maybe that relationships could have gone somewhere. So somebody who's looking for less availability would be ideal. In that situation.

Unknown Speaker

Yes, I have a friend who is, loves her work and is really passionate about her side hustle that she's bringing up into a full business, and has dedicated lots of time to it and was dating someone who wanted more time and attention. And she realized, like, I know, I want to actually give it to my work. I don't want to give it to you. And so we were talking about and saying I was saying non monogamy is something that she can consider it not that she necessarily would be practicing it on her end by dating multiple people because she certainly doesn't have the bandwidth, but looking for folks who may be engaging in a really other relationship that they're not looking for more time or emotional connection from more than what she has available.

Effy

Exactly. I think, you know, I've shared my experience of being auxilary partner and what that looks for me in a conversation that you and I had, which is now going on Patreon. So if you want to sort of understand sort of anecdotally what it's like to be an Ultimately partner and what why I would choose that, you can definitely jump onto Patreon and listen to that. The short version of that is similar like I did not at the time wanted to be the sole solely responsible for a relationship. So it worked for me that everybody that I was dating at the time were in, you know, committed primary relationships and the responsibility of that fullness of a relationship was met somewhere else. It really worked for me at the time, I felt like I didn't want that I knew exactly that I was on vacation, vacation relationships all the time, which is great. I think the most important thing here is that you need to be clear, honest, and don't over promise. And that is the key Ray, the idea is not that you need to be available fully to everybody at all times. But you need to be clear about your availability, time, energy, attention, you know, libido, whatever tracks are important to you, is to be clear, be honest with the other person and realize, you know, just because you don't have full availability doesn't mean that they're going to run away, right? Sometimes people aren't clear about their availability, because they feel like it's going to put the other person off, you're actually better off stating it earlier in the process. So they can, they can make informed decisions, right. And you do want to align on this with somebody, rather than you don't want to be with somebody who thinks that there's more available than than there is right? It's gonna cause trouble down the line. I just don't over promise, right, you're better off building a relationship, one brick at a time, then saying this is where we're going to get to this is what's available, right? You know, your, you know, your cap because you have other agreements. But don't over promise, like, just be clear, be honest. And take it one brick at a time, on all

Unknown Speaker

ends, on all ends, if you're if you're the exhilarate partner, getting really clear on what it is that you want. And having that conversation is really important. And I would even add to that allowing for evolution of those things, communicating those evolutions. And so again, there's so many people that I've seen who enter into non monogamous dating relationships. And they're saying, Well, I'm just dating around, so it's fine. Like you can be with other date other people, you're dating other people. And then there's an emotional connection. And now I want more than actually, I first said, I wanted it to be lights. But now I don't want to too late, I wanted to be more serious, but that person was very clear with me. They were only available to light. And I've observed that honestly, the one of the women that my partner dated, that was happening, and I could see that struggle of her wanting more and more from the relationship and my partner just became more and more distant, which then it was a cycle that didn't she want more and more attention and time and connection. So naming the evolution of that, because when my partner named it with her, she was saying, No, I'm still light. It's fun. It's great. But clearly, that wasn't the case, right? Like her behavior, which was indicating that she wanted more. So how can everybody really clear know that it'll evolve? And make sure to talk about what it is you need?

Effy

Yes. I think also going back to the thing that we say all the time, which is to know thyself, right? So if you if you know that you're monogamous, and you're dating around, but you just happened to be dating somebody who's who's polyamorous or open and open relationships are non monogamous. You need to check in with yourself and say, Can I continue to date right? Sometimes people are non monogamous, because they don't have the capacity. And it's not a value judgment, just they don't want to use the bandwidth to have multiple relationships. So they feel like they can't nurture more than one connection that they are truly monogamous, right. So if you're somebody who's truly monogamous and you're dating around and you happen to connect with somebody who's polyamorous, you should know that about yourself that you might not continue to date and find a relationship going forward, that you might get stuck in this connection, where there is not the availability that you're looking for. Right? If it's okay for you to continue to date, continue to have make new connection, continue to nurture these relationships and, you know, keep thriving in the rest of your life. Great. If you find yourself in a relationship with somebody, and you aren't able to meet the the needs that are not met in that relationship elsewhere, and it's causing you pain and suffering, it's probably not the right structure for you.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, I love the way you just said around having those things. But elsewhere, people don't need to be in multiple relationships have their needs met, right? We've friendship is such an important relationship. We did a whole episode on friendship, that counts to be having rich friendships, having a career or a passion that you're that you love and involved with loving to spend time with yourself. There's so many ways in which we can feed ourselves outside of romantic partnership or sexual relationships. And so if your bucket is full, yes, that's great. And if there's some gaps that you're looking for, again, just name it. That's all. That's all. We're saying just know it, just name it.

Effy

Exactly. So another way to design around privilege and hierarchy is to consciously decide how you want to treat everyone involved in the relationship and remaining integrity of those decisions, regardless of how the core relationship is going, right? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker

So talk me through that more. A good

Effy

example would be this idea of like, which relationship is going to get saved slash fixed, right? So often, in situations where maybe there's a couple, and one of the couple is dating somebody else, so they have an auxiliary partner, and the core relationship struggles, for whatever reason. And in an effort to save it, the auxiliary relationships get cut rate, there's too much pressure from the, you know, people are feeling insecure because of that. And then so there's a decision always made, the default decision is always to save the core relationship, the couple of relationships, even at the expense of auxilary relationships that might actually be doing well.

Unknown Speaker

Yes, yes, I'm guilty of that. After I found out about my wife's emotional infidelity, there was absolutely a period of request to say, please do not see that person, please limit your time. And then over time, it you know, once a month, once every two weeks, once a week, like it started to, but that that ask was completely focused on me my needs and our relationship, and has zero, I had zero thought about what my meta more was feeling and experiencing which now I would do differently. That was kind of, you know, baby, Polly, Jackie,

Effy

look at you now doing a podcast.

Unknown Speaker

I know it's true. It's true. Yeah. That idea of where you need to stop seeing that other person, or you need to see them less than that person is a person. And I've even heard more than that, you know, I've talked to folks who feel like, when the core relationship is struggling, the auxilary partner should observe that and back away, to allow the core relationship to be healed. And when that doesn't happen, there's not only frustration with the partner, but often is a frustration with the auxilary partner saying they don't respect us enough to not be involved and to back off, and that framing is very much their their character in our story, as opposed to thinking about what the experience for them is.

Effy

Yeah, absolutely. Something came up the other day in a session that I it was insightful for everyone. Non monogamy is not necessarily the opposite of monogamy, right? They actually kind of very different structures, there aren't the exact opposite of one another, even though the language kind of stipulates that it does. Non monogamy is a different way of thinking, being acting, perceiving relationships, and dynamics and values and feelings. So it's not just a matter of Oh, over here in monogamy, we don't fuck other people. Hi, guys, over here, a non monogamy we fuck other people, right? It's just not right. Simple, right? So I think it's important to realize like, if you are showing the non monogamous waters, you're in a different environment, you need to examine pretty much everything. You need to examine your relationship with time about attention about safety and security, it's really helpful to examine, for example, whether you're community minded or not, right, it really is helpful if you're a community minded person that is going to help you we know when you're swimming in the non monogamous waters, that if you're somebody who's more of a personal thinker, right, if you sort of put the person or the unit first versus, you know, have this idea of a community, you know, it's one of the reasons why we say to people, when you're opening up your relationship, community matters. Not only because you want to support of the community, and not only because you want to be with like minded people and learn from them, but also to cultivate a community mindset and realize that if you're monogamous, and if you're dating, you know, there's two of you, and then you're dating some other people. And at some point, what you have here is a micro community that you're managing. Mm hmm. It's really worth thinking about non monogamy in a more expansive way. Then, Hey, over here, we don't fuck other people. Hey, over here, we've got the people and you know, it's done.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, yeah. And it's hard to do this and say it really easily. I could stand here on this podcast and say it is hard. Hmm. I remember when after I got married, it was our honeymoon. And my wife said, why I want to make sure to build in some time to connect with my partner, not here. And I would first of all, I was floored. I was disgusted. I was just like, like, I How could that be? Like, it should be about me and us? And like, oh, yeah, many years later now that I have a partner that, that I'm deeply committed to I get it at the time, I was shocked and appalled. I was absolutely saying, no, no time. No, you can't do that, because it hurt. The idea of them talking hurt. And so I just because we're saying, oh, make sure you consider everybody and like, make sure you consider everyone's needs. And, yes, do that. Yes. Because I think it'll make things a little like that framing may help in your decision making. But it is not easy to do that. And it's not easy to be the person who is trying to navigate that. I have been on vacation myself trying to figure out how can I connect with my partner in a way that doesn't feel distracting or disrespectful or so in old spaces in places I've been, you know, in this pattern, and it's not easy in any of the ways. For me, at least, I'm sure there are many people out there that it is easy. I'm not there yet. But I'm building the muscle. That's I'm just thoughtful about it. And I just keep doing it and keep doing it and keep doing it. And I build a muscle for it.

Effy

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's it's not Relationships are hard period. Non monogamy requires more work, because there are more people and more relationships, period. That No, monogamy requires us to swim against the status quo, because of privilege and how societies structured and we just talked a bunch about that. Right? So the conditions are hard for sure. Which is one of the reasons why you need to be super clear to why you are going down this path. What is it that you're trying to create? What is it that you're working towards? Why put up with all the stuff? Why the extra effort, right? Why do the work to become more emotionally flexible, and sort of be open to expansion and growth, right, all this stuff is like pain, hardship, like, you need to be clear to why you're doing this. And that is that is what's going to get you through that is what's gonna make you examine that stuff and make different decisions, even though it's not the obvious prescription that's given to you.

Unknown Speaker

And in that, I think there's a level of ownership once you do that thought, because one of the things that I've seen experience and folks that I've coached as well is when one person is creating more of the I was gonna say rule agreement, I don't know if their agreement, it may be more like rules in the beginning. And the other person has agreed to live with that. The way in which they are communicating that to the exhilarate partner is also really important, because it's not just mutually agreeing to something once you agree to it, you got to own that thing.

Effy

Right, exactly. Because it's an agreement. And it's a commitment. And it is not something that you just pass on from your, from one partner to another,

Unknown Speaker

right. So for example, if you and your partner love going to the beach, and one day your auxilary partner says let's go to the beach, but that is an agreement that you have made and agreed to that the beach is sacred space for for you to in your relationship. If you said I would love to go with you. But my wife won't let me like she's not going to be happy about us going. So we got to pick something else, you know, I'm sorry about that. But that's an agreement that we had. That's not the best way to communicate. That's it doesn't take ownership. It is creating now a rift between the two metaphors, not the best strategy,

Effy

no breeze, animosity, it's also immature and I don't mean that in, in a value judgment way but immature in terms of like, Oh, my husband won't let me or my wife won't let me right. We are adults in adult relationships with with autonomy over our lives, right? You're agreeing to a request, right? You're not a child and not someone's giving you permission to do something that if you agreed then you agreed is two adults that had a common thoughts and a commitment in between and you both subscribe to that. And that's where you that's where you stand. So you need to be able to sustain integrity of that from your own stance rather than get this you know, get to a place where like, yeah, my wife won't let me my my husband won't let me my partner won't let me right that's that's an immature way of thinking about things.

Unknown Speaker

Yes, yes, yes. And so the alternative then is either don't name that agreement or boundary and just suggest something else. Oh, instead of the beach. Why don't we go to the amusement park I think that would be so much fun. We can go to a waterpark together. Just change it something else or say you know, honestly, the beach is a sacred space for us. And so let's find some some other place and some other way of, of enjoying the summer that feels unique to you and I let's create some spaces together that feel good for us. And in both Have those ways you're owning it in that you are not blaming your partner for any of the restrictions that may exist within the partnership?

Effy

Exactly. And you're not breeding the sort of this contentious. Dynamic. You know what, you don't want to come up and bite you in the ass down the line. Yeah. And it puts

Unknown Speaker

it puts one person in power. Right? I remember when my my partner was dating somebody. And there were some we had some guidelines around like fluid exchange, and some of the toys that could be used and things like that. And it sounded like the person who she was with wanted to do some of the things. And I believe that my partner, my partner said, you know, why can't but I let me ask, let me ask to see if that's something that we can do. Right? So now that puts me in a position of power to like, say yes, or say no. And like, people are gonna get mad and sad. Because I said, Yes, sir. said no. So like, that's, that's like, I become a villain in the story. But I also be that power then demonstrates to me like, Oh, I get to I now own the show. And I get to map out what the story looks like.

Effy

Right? I think I think this sort of kicks back to this idea of a descriptive hierarchy and a prescriptive hierarchy, I think, really understanding those and looking at looking at it from a place of commitment, and agreement, rather than dictatorship and rules, right? That's kind of where we come back to, and realize, okay, here's what I've committed to. And here's how I uphold my commitments. And state integrity is a way to think about it, rather than saying, well, here are the rules. So we have to me, I'm only allowed to do this. And we have to do that and not the other. Another way that people kind of yield that power of hierarchy and privilege is when they think about meeting the auxiliary partner. If that's the case, you need to think about a few things. One, it's not really just up to you. So I hear just from a coaching point of view, I hear a lot of conversations around whether one of the core partners should meet the auxiliary partner, what should it look like when what they want out of it? At no point, they actually kind of stopped to say, I wonder if they want to meet me, right? Or do they want to meet me at all right? And the other piece is, what are your intentions when you want to meet this person? For example? Are you meeting this predicate person, because you are genuinely curious and looking for a connection? And you want to get to know this person and kind of allow you to have more space and tolerance for that relationship? Is that why you're meeting them? Or are you meeting them because you want to mark your territory and check them out and exert control on kind of get territorial and, and from the outside? It can look like you know, smiles and everyone being cordial from the outside. But I think it's really important to be really clear about your intention of going there. I think that that is really important that it's not some sort of a veiled powerplay.

Jacqueline

Yeah. So at the end of the day, we continue to find ourselves back to where we always find ourselves. Which is, first you need to know your, know thyself, know thyself, right? Know what it is that you want, anywhere that you are in that constellation of that relationship, know what it is that you want. Communicate that thing in the beginning, upfront, as it's evolving. Be respectful of everyone and recognize that you are not the protagonist in the story that everyone actually is a main character. And then own the decisions, own the decisions that have been made. Don't put that on somebody else. Don't blame it on the relationship. If it is really mutually agreed upon, then own that and have those conversations also with integrity.

Effy

Ultimately, you can't choose your privilege. But you can choose how you treat people. So be kind and considerate people.

Unknown Speaker

If you want to share your story or question about couples privilege hierarchy, or auxilary relationships, then come to the Facebook group. That is the place where we're going to have conversations after the podcast about how we feel about it what this looks like in real life, real life what folks can do. So check out the Facebook group at we are curious foxes, you can also use at weird gears boxes to find us on Instagram, and on Patreon. Make sure to follow us and like us there as well as right here, wherever you're listening to us in this moment, that app, press follow press like fresh air, leave a rating any of the things that can allow us to continue to share our message and expand out all of the storytelling that we do. We're really appreciative. And the last way that we can hear from you directly is via email, you can send us an email or voice message at listening at we're curious foxes.com

Effy

This episode is produced and edited by Nina Pollock, who we feel privileged to be in a relationship with our interim Music is composed by Dev Sahar we are so grateful for that work and we're grateful to you for listening as always Stay curious friends ideally auxilary partners are essentially hold on there's been an earthquake Well, we're having an earthquake one second.

Unknown Speaker

Oh hold on Yes yes. After stroke

Effy

carry okay we had an earthquake onwards

Unknown Speaker

the world the world like was annoyed by your your disdain for Valentine's Day. Shocking protest literally will fall in line.

Effy

Or it reflected my annoyance and that's important to look at it, but yeah, me shook. Let me just get get back into being second. I was just gonna say it pisses on everyone's relationships will probably not. Let's not say that, you know,

Unknown Speaker

I can hear someone in the kitchen singing to her. So

Effy

that's funny. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic. We solely aim to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind, and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious and curious, curious and curious. Curious, stay curious.

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