Ep 156: Exploring the Asexuality Spectrum with Angela Chen
In a hypersexualized society, what is it like to be asexual? Do asexual folks have sex? Can asexuality be an important factor for female sexual liberation?
In honor of International Asexuality Day (April 6th), we revisit a conversation between Effy, Jacqueline, and journalist, editor, and the author of Ace: What Asexuality Reveals About Desire, Society, and the Meaning of Sex, Angela Chen. The three talk about the asexuality spectrum, its role in identity politics, and why Angela’s book helps those of any sexual orientation understand the role of sexuality in society and in their lives.
To learn more about Angela Chen, follow her on Twitter @chengela, on Instagram at @angelaetcetera, or via her website: angelachen.org.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Effy
Welcome to the curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.
Jacqueline
And I'm Jacqueline Misla and today we're excited to speak with Angela Chen, journalist editor and the author of ACE what's asexuality reveals about desire society in the meaning of sex. Asexuality is one of the most requested topics that we received from foxes. And it's a fitting topic to challenge the status quo regarding our personal thoughts on love, sex and relationships. Her latest book ace was named one of the best books of 2020 by NPR, electric literature and them and can be found on our recommended reading list. At we are curious foxes.com backslash reading list. Angela Chen was a reporter at The Wall Street Journal, Vox Media's The Verge, and MIT's Technology Review. Her recordings and essays have appeared in The New York Times, The Atlantic, The Guardian, National Geographic, Smithsonian, and more.
Effy
We've been wanting to cover this topic of asexuality for a long time, and Angela is the perfect person for it. And I have to say, I like many had a bunch of assumptions and frankly judgments about asexuality. And this episode allowed me to dig deep into this topic, the curious Fox way with genuine curiosity, open mind and open heart and an open air. And I have to say my point of view on asexuality has shifted significantly. We wanted to focus our time with Angela on a deeper conversation about asexuality. In order to set up that discussion, Jacqueline and I would like to do a brief asexuality one on one so that we can share some basic terms and dispel common myths related to asexuality. So, let's start with the basics. asexual or ACE are people who do not experience sexual attraction, meaning while they may find the human form aesthetically beautiful, they do not get sexually aroused by the human form. or thoughts about having sex with someone specific. Oh, sexual on the other hand, or aloe for short. i People who experience sexual attraction. So Jacqueline and I would fit into that category for example, aromatic or arrow are people who do not experience romantic attraction. Now, this one was a bit of a mind Twister for me to be honest, because I find romance to be pretty ambiguous. We talked about this a lot and eventually brought it out with Angela. She affirm that it's not so easily understood. I think the piece that stuck out for me and got me closer to understanding it is that people who identify as a romantic don't experience new relationship energy, so they don't get that giddy romantic, starry eyed feeling that people get at the beginning of relationships. Great sexual, or gray are people who sell them experience sexual attraction. Demi sexuals, or Demi are people who experience sexual attraction towards folks, they have an emotional connection with so impromptu one night stands purely for the fun of it, or not really their speed. Last, but definitely not least, queer platonic relationships. Queer platonic relationships, or QPR is a close bond that we would normally associate with a romantic relationship. But in actuality, is a purely platonic relationship. Queer in this sense, is used to mean out of the ordinary, rather than what we normally associated with, which has to do with the queer alphabet.
Jacqueline
We had a conversation with Angela around why words were important. There's a lot of terms here, there many, many more that we did not share. And so we encourage you to indulge in your curiosity and do some research. But we realized it was important for us to at least be able to know the language and be able to make some distinctions. So a few distinctions that we are going to explore in this episode are the distinction between sexual desire and sexual attraction. Sexual desire speaks to what's happening inside of your body, your arousal, your sex drive, your libido. Those things are distinct and different from sexual attraction, which is attraction to Do someone attraction to the human form, it goes beyond a static attraction, meaning that you may think someone is beautiful as if he said, but it means that you want your beautiful body and to touch their beautiful body and for them to touch yours. There's also a distinction between a romantic and platonic. While they may look the same to distinction as a platonic relationship means that you are not necessarily in partnership. platonic relationships include familial relationships, or friends on a romantic relationship may not be physical or sexual, they are still a partnership that exists there. This topic
Effy
is so so rich, and we're so glad that we're able to have this conversation with Angela. Before we dive into that, though, I think it's also worth us doing some myth busting. Because I am guilty of this. There are so many myths and presumptions and assumptions about asexuality and a romanticism that we kind of clouds our our point of view on this, so we picked some common ones, and we want to just talk about them right here. In preparation for this interview. The first one that I hear a lot is around morality, that somehow being asexual is about a moral choice. And it's not at all.
Jacqueline
Yeah, there's a perception I think that folks are Angela mentions is prudish or boring, or not a threat because again, it's like, oh, you're choosing the better path, you're choosing the moral path, and you are not choosing sex. And it's important to realize that just in the same way that we realize that folks in the queer alphabet, don't choose whether or not they are heterosexual or homosexual. And many folks don't choose whether or not they are polyamorous or monogamous, asexual or not choosing not to have sex, that is the way that they are built. Within that there's a thought that folks who are asexual are repulsed by sex. And that is actually true for some, there are some folks who may look at a bland kind of sex scene within a movie or may think about sexual intimacy and could be repulsed by that. That is not reflective of everyone who considers themselves to be asexual.
Effy
Exactly, because we know that asexual people actually have sex. And we talked about that, which I think is definitely worth wrapping your head around and sitting with because it's just not what you expect, in the same way that people think that asexual folks don't masturbate, right, and that they don't have anything to do with sex whatsoever. And that's not the case. They may match to be and they may have sex with their partners because they think of sex beyond just attraction. They think of sex as being a form of bonding, for closeness for fun or to relieve boredom. There are many, many reasons we have sex.
Jacqueline
Yeah, one of the analogies that Angela shares in her book is the distinction between being hungry and craving a hamburger. And so in the same way, there's a distinction between having physical arousal and experiencing that sensation. And having a specific desire to have sex with this person that you see and believe is attractive. There's a distinction also to be made between asexuality and celibacy or abstinence. Asexuality is the way in which somebody feels versus celibacy and abstinence are decisions or choices or actions that someone is making those two things are distinct. So you may be allo sexual, and someone who experienced a sexual desire and may choose abstinence or to celibacy, or you may be asexual and not be engaged in sex. But those things between feelings and actions are distinct and different.
Effy
Absolutely. Also, there is a myth that asexuality is somehow a pathology, that there is something wrong with people if they don't have sexual attraction. And that may be true. In some cases, hormones are trauma. But that is not a given to everybody who identify as asexual.
Jacqueline
The last thing I think that people may think is a sexuality is new, just like so many other terms, people say like, Well, I never heard this before. And it feels like people are just identifying it now. And I think that's actually really the important point of why Angela's book is important. Why the work that she does is because it has to do a lot with representation. Something that she notes in the book is that on the Kinsey scale, asexuality is not noted. And that's because during that research, folks who identified as asexual were not included in the study. And so really their point of view and the way in which they showed up in the world was not represented there. And so this is not something new is just something that now folks have the language to be able to discuss. If you want to hear more about any of this stuff. If you want to indulge your curiosity beyond these basics and really understand the ACE experience. Then we really do recommend Angeles book which can be found on our recommended reading list. And we are curious foxes.com backslash reading list. Now that we've gone through some very basic crash course on asexuality, let's dive in.
Effy
Enjoy the interview. Enjoy let's start where the book does. We're curious to your story of how you arrived that asexuality.
Speaker 4
I think that the portrayal of asexuality that people tend to see in the media, usually it's people saying, I always knew I was different. I knew that I didn't want to have sex. I wasn't interested in relationships. And so even though I came across asexuality the word and even though I came across some articles about asexuality when I was a teenager, there was no part of me that recognized that in myself, when I was 14, I hadn't had sex yet, but I was interested in it. I assumed that one day would I had crushes on people, I had people that I very much wanted to date. And so to me, I really thought, how can I be asexual? How could I be ace, I'm just a straight woman like everyone else. And it was only a decade later in my mid 20s, after having too serious and not celibate relationships, that I realized that I was ace. And what I realized then is that an asexual person is someone who doesn't experience sexual attraction. But you can not experience sexual attraction while still having an enjoying sex. You know, there's so many reasons to have sex that aren't related to sexual attraction. People have sex when they're bored, they have sex because they want to feel closer to their partner, they have sex because, you know, it makes them feel attractive. Or, you know, there's so many emotional reasons. And for me, because I always experienced emotional reasons to have sex. I think that hit in many ways, the fact that I don't experience sexual attraction. And once I realized that, I felt like many parts of my life made sense to me. No, I didn't feel like I was different. It wasn't that way for me. But looking back, I could see that the way that I'd gone through my teenage years and my early adult years, the way I experienced the world was different, even though it didn't. At the time, I didn't know that. And that's when I started learning more about asexuality and thinking that Justice way of thinking has a lot to offer folks, regardless of whether you identify as ace or not.
Effy
Yes, absolutely. That totally makes sense to me. I also, you know, you talked about the emotional reasons, I can also imagine their physical reasons, just because you don't feel physical attraction doesn't mean you don't, it doesn't feel good in your body, like the sensations don't feel good in your body. Right?
Speaker 4
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, there's so many types of ACE experience, just like there's so many types of any kind of sexual you know, heterosexuality. There's many types of that, too. So there are definitely people who are asexual and their sex repulsed, and they're just not interested in sex. It's not something that appeals to them. But there are folks who, you know, they might not feel sexually attracted to a person. But you know, maybe masturbation still feels good. Or maybe penetrative sex still feels good, just because, again, of the sensations, even if it's not directed towards someone, and so I think it can be hard for people to understand asexuality because there's so many nuances. And because there's, I think it I think it's hard for people to understand the difference between attraction and sexual attraction sexual desire.
Speaker 2
Yeah, that makes sense. And I think to your point, it's hard for people to potentially wrap their mind around it if particularly because I will talk to you about this, if the experience or the language or the society has said that this, this thing is the norm. And so we all assume that we're normal, then and we're thinking those things and don't see ourselves outside of that spectrum. You talked a lot in the book around there being an asexuality spectrum. And then we can be focusing be on different ends of that. And that can flow in and out of that. And so there are a lot of different labels, and even some that you've shared now and definitions within the asexuality spectrum. And so one of the questions is to what end? You know, why do all these words matter? Why have definitions and language attached to each piece of somebody's experience around the spectrum?
Speaker 4
I think that language helps you find a community and it helps you understand yourself. So many people after I wrote the book reached out to me, and they said that their story was similar to mine, that they didn't think they were asexual because they might be in a long term sexual relationship. But they always felt like something was a little bit off. Or they felt like there was something weird about them, where do I fit and I don't fit within the gay, straight binary, there's something that's wrong with me. And then understanding that they that they are asexual to that they misunderstood the word the same way I did. It gave them connection to people who had very similar experiences, you know, people will create community around anything, people who create community around which college they went to. And, you know, even though the ace community is very, you know, there's so many different experiences. There's also a lot of commonalities. So often you'll find aces saying, Oh, you, you experienced that too. Oh, you don't understand this too. And I think you can just be very validating to find people who can help you make sense of what's happened to you and make you feel like you're not broken. There's not anything wrong with you and is also a great way of looking at the world differently. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2
So there's a moment that you capture in the book where you sit down with a friend at a cafe or a diner and you ask the question, you ask a plain question around attraction. And they describe their experience. And you're like, oh, that's what you've been meaning all this time. That is not what I meant when I said that. And to your point, there is not a we're not used to having those types of conversations where we're defining with each other and be I can imagine in those moments, because I've experienced this myself as it relates to my pansexuality, or poly sexuality that are polyamory that when I describe it to folks, and they don't know what I'm talking about, that feels alienating, versus when I have that conversation with someone and they're like, Yes, me too. Then finally, I can take a breath and say, oh, okay, I feel seen right now.
Speaker 4
It's absolutely like that. And I think that for anyone who's part of a minority group, it just becomes exhausting to always be having conversations at the surface level, you know, if all the conversations you're ever having, you know, for me, for instance, about being a woman or about being an Asian woman, or about telling people what that means, how will we ever get to the point where we're having deep, rich conversations that go beyond the surface? And so I think that's another reason why, you know, the ace community, the labels, discussions are valuable. And of course, the ace community is not a monolith. Not everyone likes how many labels there are, the definitions are in flux. But when there's people who have your experience, and we take for granted that asexuality is real, that it's you know, not some kind of disorder, then if you start from there, and you have the same grounding, that's when you get into the deeper, more interesting questions. You know, what even is sexuality? What even is attraction? And you can't go there? If you're always doing a smaller one, everyone else?
Effy
Yes, that I think makes a lot of sense. To me, I have to say, something that I resisted for a long time is this idea that the asexuality is a spectrum, for example, and that's, you know, I'm now in a place that I've, you know, having read your book, and having spoken to people having done work around it, and try to figure it out and wrap my head around it and, and really understanding question the big meanings like sexuality, like traction, as we do in this podcast, I now understand that it is a spectrum and I now understand the range that it can, it can go and that it is not always linear either, that when I have been explaining it to people in preparation for this just helps me sort of have multiple dialogues, to sort of say in one, and you have people who, you know, the idea of heterosexual vanilla, Hollywood, you know, sex scene with nothing but shoulders and sheets, it will be like if you are a regular person who's like thinking about or seeing this reality, like that kind of repulsion, versus all the way to the other end, which is people who are willingly having sex in long term sexual relationships, even like exploring sexuality and having sexual expression, or like kink and all that kind of stuff, yet still don't have that sexual attraction. And it is not the linear spectrum that we need to understand attraction and sex to understand like, where it's more of like a multi dimensional experience. I think that is important because I think through that, you also get more insight into a person who's sexually attractive than you onsolve Somebody who does have sexual attraction.
Speaker 4
I think that the key to understanding the spectrum of asexuality is just to give it the same multidimensionality, as you said, in the same respect as any other kind of sexuality. You know, when someone says that you're heterosexual, of course, I don't think you assume that they are attracted sexually attracted to everyone have the opposite gender, right? They there's so many types of heterosexuality, because there are people who are heterosexual, and sex is not that important to them. And there are people who are heterosexual and they're very independent sex is very important to them. And that same kind of diversity in the heterosexual community, I think can be found in almost all different types of communities. So I do think a lot of people find the idea of asexuality on a spectrum difficult. I think that if we think about asexuality, as not any less diverse than heterosexuality, it makes a lot more sense.
Effy
That's where I arrived. And it's helpful. It's really helpful. It's definitely opened my mind to it. So let me add to the conversation a little bit within the US. And most countries actually, we know that sex is everywhere, be it those who are exploring it, exploiting it or trying to police it. It is a very much woven into our society. I'm curious to what is it like to navigate the world without sexual attraction? And how can we create a world that is more inclusive of the ACE experience?
Speaker 4
So once again, like I said, AC experience is very diverse, but I think one thing that people always say is that there is this pressure that they need to they need to discover that they experience sexual attraction. A lot of times is women will be told you're not really ace, this is just Patreon. Do you need to go out and liberate the woman within? Because sexuality of all kinds have been controlled so much? When you say your as people will think, oh, it's, it's caused by something else, sometimes, you know, it's caused by racism or some kind of oppression. And so there's always a sense that you need to figure something out about yourself that you are not an adult, because only children are asexual, that you're on the outside. So many people write to me, and they say, I just felt this enormous pressure throughout my life. In my ideal world, I would just never talk about it. I'm not bothering anyone, why would you care? But, you know, the reason we have to talk about this is because of all of these pressures, and it gets stronger, the older you get, right? You know, why aren't you interested in this? Could you have a medical problem? That I think oftentimes it really is the sense that there is something that is not as different about you, but something that is broken, and it needs to be fixed in order for you to be happy. At the end of the day, I think the idea is that people think they know better than you what you need. And they're always trying to tell you what you should be doing. And so just reject that. We say we know what we are for ourselves.
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's interesting, too, because in one hand, we're saying you must be broken, because you want to experience this. This is joy. This is pleasure. This is life. But on the other hand, I also think that there's something around like misery loving company, because really, the narrative, particularly in the United States, is sex is all of these amazing, incredible things, but avoid it, avoid it until you're married have waited until this don't have it with too many people don't talk about it that much. So there is like this contradicting narrative around our natural desire and lust and longing for sex that we must team. And actually in order to be productive in the world and to be good partners not sit in that lust and desire. And so it's interesting, too, that when if someone's on the is Ace, and they're saying, I actually am good. I don't crave that they are not struggling, that we're like, no, no, what's wrong with you? You need to struggle like we struggle. I want you to want it but not do it. Don't do it. But also want it like I want it.
Speaker 4
Yeah, I think that really is you know how how it is? I think that it's not okay, if you experience a lot of sexual desire and go act on it's also not okay, if you don't experience it at all, because then it means that you're robotic, or you don't have passion, there's something wrong with you. Something that is scheduled a lot is there'll be this kind of quippy idea like, oh, you know, you must be so much more productive. Because you're not spending so much time thinking about sex and sexuality. You must get so much more work done. But what if we actually had things that made us just as happy? And it's not just you know, what if we're not robots, it's not that if we're not thinking about sex, we decide we're going to be thinking about our work email. There are actually things in our life that bring us joy and pleasure. It just doesn't necessarily have have to be related to sexual attraction.
Effy
Exactly. I think you can be passionate about knitting and and allocate as much what we call here like bandwidth to knitting and nobody would. And if you decided to not knit for those who don't are not into knitting, we're not, we won't go around saying, Well, you must be so productive and everything else that you do, because you're not thinking about knitting. It's just like, for some reason, when it's sexuality, we we separate that and put it on a pedestal and which I think is related to the term that I learned from your book, this idea of compulsive sexuality.
Speaker 4
Yeah. Compulsive compulsory sexuality, which is a little different.
Effy
I'm sorry. Yes. Yeah, I
Speaker 2
was gonna say, let me let me jump in there for a second. Because I think what was really interesting is when I was reading compulsory, and understanding the language around that in terms of law, or, you know, being a part of the stomach system, my brain also went to compulsive sexuality. And I think that that again, I'm rooting that maybe in my us experience of, we are Puritan in the US, but there's also this need for it. And so compulsory, and sexuality, like my brain couldn't understand those two things together compulsive and sexuality, though my brain was like, yes, that is a thing that I've been told exists in the world. And ironically, I think that compulsive sexuality is a part of compulsory sexuality. And so I'm hoping you can talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 4
I absolutely think that there's this feeling that's related, you know, so speaking, from part of my experience, I understand the most is how this how compulsory sexuality intersects with feminism. And at one part of my book, I quote someone who says that she's heard from women who hear something like, who thinks something like, oh, all the braid, women have sex. So if I'm not having this really exciting sex life, and I'm a political failure, and if you believe these things, if you believe that everyone who's healthy and happy and adult needs to have sex, that if you don't have sex, you're this sad, pathetic, repressed woman, then I think that can lead to a sort of compulsive sexuality because you feel like you have something to prove. You know, I've spoken to aces who have put themselves in situations and frankly, I don't think this is Just about ACEs, I think there are just people in the world who put themselves in situations where they have sex, they don't want to, because they want to prove something they and I don't say this with judgment, I say this with sympathy and empathy. Because I think there can be that feeling that, oh, I need to show that I'm down, I need to show that I'm not a prude, I need to show that I'm cool. I need to show, you know, especially if you feel deep down, there's something wrong with you, that drive to prove everyone wrong, prove yourself wrong can be strong. And I think that can just lead to people having sex that is consensual in the sense that they say yes to it, but deep down not really wanted.
Effy
Absolutely. I think it's something that Jackie and I also discussed that, you know, as we're thinking about this, I completely agree with you that there is a narrative out there that essentially says women's liberation is through sexual revolution. That is, you know, within the feminist movement, if you want to be a free woman, you also want to be having sex freely, right? You know, when I think about the ACE experience, when I hear about the experience and those who are living, and that is their sexual expression. To me, that is sexual liberation, as well, like sexual liberation doesn't necessarily mean that you're having sex, sexual liberation can mean that you are also choosing not to have sex, and it is that you're using your you're going with what works for you, and what is a true authentic expression of your sexuality. With that in mind, do you think that it also fits into the feminist movement in that kind of way?
Speaker 4
Absolutely. You know, I think that the feminist movement, and first of all, I should say that I'm a feminist, and haven't they understood the word and I have so much appreciation for the work that feminists have done to help fight double standards and sexual shame. But I do feel like there's been almost an overcorrection, where there's this belief that the only reason that a woman would not be interested in having sex is because of the patriarchy. Of course, it's true that you know, sexual shame, it does make women who are not as who want to have sex, it does complicate that, but sexual variation exists, right? I think some people just naturally experience more sexual attraction, some people experience less. And so I believe that true sexual liberation, as you said, is about people doing you know, we celebrate consenting sex between those who want it. And we also celebrate people's desire not to have sex. And we don't stigmatize either side, you know, we don't say, Oh, you're frigid, you're broken. And we don't say, Oh, you are a sloth, you're a nympho. There's no, you don't use those words, because you can be just as progressive in either case. And so I think that the is perspective on feminism on consent can be so enriching. And I think it's often overlooked in a lot of feminist spaces.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I want to add another layer to this because in your book, in talking about this, you talk about the distinction between attraction and desire. You talk about the distinctions between libido and sex drive, and celibacy, and the ACE experience and wanting to make sure that those things are not conflated with each other. And so we often get questions from partners who have differing desire around the relationship or sexual experience. So one person may be monogamous. The other one polyamorous one is kinky, when it's not. When is Allah when is Ace? Who wants to know? How can we thrive together? How can we understand each other's experience and create a relationship where we each have the opportunity to thrive? And so knowing that each individual partnership is different, and each ace experience is different? Can you give us a sense of what is important to understand about being in a thriving relationship with someone who is asexual or a romantic?
Speaker 4
Yeah, speaking to, you know, couples in which one person is asexual the other person is not, I think the most important thing is that both people believe that they have equal moral right. And the way I say this is because so often in in cases of desire discrepancy, and it doesn't have to be because one person is asexual, it's very common to have desire discrepancy, no matter, you know what the orientations are. But in those situations, so often, the person who has lower desire is seen as the problem, and they're the one who has to do mindfulness exercises. And you know, they're the one who's asking you, are you willing to work on this? And I don't, they're just not the problem. The problem, as I write in the book, is the fact that there is a discrepancy. You know, if both people had zero desire, or if both people had a ton of desire, there would be no problem at all. The problem is that what they want is different. And so I think first thing is starting off with the idea that it's not, it's not that there's the normal one and the broken one in in either direction. It's both of them just want different things. Both of them can be healthy. This is very normal and very common. Can you work together? So instead of what is common now just shifting the blame to lower set and partner? I think a big part of it for everyone is deconstructing what sex really what sex really means for you and this ties back to what I said the big Anything about how there are so many reasons to have sex? And I think that in the society because sex is so conflated with pleasure and with feeling good about yourself that people often don't dig deeper, you know, of course, people do have sex because they are horny, right? I'm not going to say that doesn't happen. But so often, you know, people have sex because you feel scared. And you know, you haven't been feeling close to your partner for a while. And this is the way that you've been taught is the way you feel close to your partner. I interviewed someone who told me that, so the person I interviewed is Ace and their girlfriend is not. And their girlfriend said something like, I actually feel like I need less sex when I'm with you. Because we're so good at communicating. And because we're so good at, you know, talking about what we really want and other other ways to get it. And, and really compromising and feeling like we can both own our desires. So you know, it's very easy to think, okay, the problem is one person wants more sex, sometimes that's the problem. But so often, you know, why does that person want more sex isn't always just because they're horny. Because if if that was a problem, they could just masturbate all the time. You know, what are there's so many relational and social aspects to sex? How can they be fulfilled in ways that feel good for both people?
Speaker 2
Yeah, that really hits close to home, because I have always defined myself as having a high sex drive. And I'm married to someone who now identifies as Demi demisexual. And on the asexual spectrum, but didn't before didn't before knowing that that language existed. And before we understood that, as a couple, I was that person saying, Are you sure everything's okay? Or is everything okay with us? Is everything okay with you. And you know, we've been together almost a decade now, and gratefully now have understood, oh, that's just not how she shows up in the world. And that that was a part of the beginning of our relationship, our new relationship energy, because that was, and she had to share that out. Frankly, she told me who she was in the beginning, without using that language and said, when the beginning of relationships, there's a lot of sex, and when it falls off for me, and that's just who I am. And of course, I was like, Sure, that's the case. Sure. But for me, it's going to be different. And then it wasn't. And then I was surprised, and that was disappointed. And all those feelings. And now we have a beautiful relationship that actually doesn't involve sexual intimacy. There's so much other emotional and emotional intimacy and partnership, that that doesn't feel important in that relationship. And also, what allowed me to thrive in that relationship was the fact that we're open. And so because we're in an open relationship, it meant that I was able to explore other relationships and have another partner who I had more sexual intimacy with Now ironically, that person would define themselves as aloe and as having a high libido book currently, or would say for for a few months now certainly threw in COVID, their libido went down. And so I'm not having really second that relationship either. But I can understand the difference now between someone who not having sexual desires, a part of who they are, versus someone who's sexual desire is part of who they are. But right now, they don't have a high libido or high sex drive. And I didn't understand that difference before and do now. So just kind of naming that and saying that even within, you know, one little circle, all of those different variations can exist. And so I'm curious, because in your book, you talk about one of your first relationships that your partner wanted to open up, and that you had some concerns around non monogamy because the way that you understood the emotional attachment to sex, you assumed and kind of laid that experience over his experience and thought, well, if you're gonna have sex with other people, that means you're gonna have this emotional attachment as well, like I have with you when I have sex, and that upon reflection years later, you could point that out and realize that, but I'm wondering what your experience in folks that you've been talking with, about a sexuality, or the aloe, Ace partnership, and open relationships, and whether that has been a benefit, whether that's makes things more complicated. I mean, let me just say, for any relationship, it could either be of benefit or more complicated. That's not unique to the ACE and allo experience. But I'm just wondering, based on your reflection, in your experience, and based on some of your conversations, where does non monogamy fit into all of this?
Speaker 4
Yeah, that's a great question. Just one quick note on what you said about you and your relationship. I think it's so common for people to wonder if someone's not interested in sex, you know, is it me? Am I less attractive? If I were more attractive? Would you be into me? Because so often we make someone else's amount of desire or interest in sex about us. And I think that that's something else that people should deconstructing relationships. So going to non monogamy a lot of ACEs are in relationships that are not monogamous. And I think that you know, and there it is, that our relationships who are monogamous, but I think having an open relationship for a lot of aces, they like it because I think it gets rid of some of the guilt because even if your partner says, oh, you know, it is it is fine, even if you have the most you know, loving and supportive Allapattah in the world. I know some aces still feel guilt within ourselves, that even if they never complain, you know, would they be happy? etc, etc. So I know a lot of aces, like open relationships. And of course, for the same reason that a lot of our people don't like open relationships, I think they can also bring up these feelings of fear. And these feelings of insecurity, and especially this feeling of, oh, this other person can maybe give you something that I can't. And even if it's something that I don't want, you know, I don't want to be seen as the person who's lacking. So I think it really requires a lot of trust. With my first boyfriend, you know, that was before I knew I was ace. And though I was just threatened by the open relationship for all the normal reasons one might be, and you know, for a long time afterward, my relationships afterward, you know, I am not celibate, I do sit with my boyfriends. And I would think that I would never be okay with open relationship. But I think the more secure I personally feel, the more fine I feel about the prospect. So definitely, it's been, you know, eight years since that first relationship. And I think at this point in my life, I would feel comfortable with it. And I think that a lot of ACEs feel that way, too. You know, I've heard from aces and people who identify as dummy that for a long time, they couldn't really understand, you know, for them, they only want to have sex with someone if you love them. So you know, why would you? Why would you want to have sex with other people? And then kind of the longer you're with someone, the more secure you are, and just maybe the more out of your head you are, that can change for people. And for some, it doesn't change. But I've definitely seen that progression happen for a lot of folks I know.
Effy
Makes sense. At the same time, I think I find that people are often surprised to hear that within the polyamorous communities there. There often is a thriving ace community that you know, people get confused by that, especially those who think that polyamory is all about having, you know, having sex, and they don't understand that the relationship, the relational nature of polyamory versus something like maybe an open relationship, and then to then find out that as folks find a home, find good, healthy, thriving relationships within polyamory can be surprising to people, what you were saying once everybody wrapped their head around what's possible, it can actually be a really nice experience and a connection for everyone. Yeah, I
Speaker 4
definitely think that's true. And I definitely think that, you know, of course, if anything, it depends on the community. Right. You know, some I think some communities are more focused on sex. But I know that a lot of aces have had great experiences in Nepali communities, because it has felt like a compromise. And not just a compromise, but which makes it sound kind of negative and opening a possibility in many ways.
Effy
Yes, I also think that like I agree with you, it really depends on the community. I do think that sort of the I guess, the general, again, generalizing but general ideology around polyamory is more around the relationship and the connection and so much beyond the sexual connection that allows for that experience. And sex is just one of the components of what makes that relationship rather than it being very much about sex, and then everything else kind of secondary. I think that also allows for a broader experience for everyone as well.
Speaker 4
Yeah, absolutely. I think that a lot of alternative communities, I'm thinking of both polyamory and kink, people tend to really see them as completely sex focused. Whereas there's a lot of kinky aces who liked the kink community because of the dynamics and the roleplay. And, you know, parts of it that are not about sexuality. And so I think that helps to challenge how outsiders see these communities.
Effy
Yes, no, absolutely. And on that note, I want to ask you a question related to what you just said, which is, there's a lot of misunderstandings around asexuality. And now that we've started this conversation here, I'm curious, what conversations do you wish that our folks are inspired to have upon learning about the ACE experience?
Speaker 4
I think that it would be helpful for our folks to also use the Split model of attraction where aces, you know, we separate sexual attraction from romantic attraction. And I don't think that's something that only aces can use. You know, I think that that can be an interesting way of thinking, Where does this fit? Because so many people I've talked to have talked about feeling like at one point in their life, they were in love with someone, but they didn't think they were in love with someone because they didn't feel sexually attracted to someone and what does that mean? And so I think the split model of attraction can help that. But I think even more importantly, just as we said, thinking about do you really want to have sex? You know, what role does it have in your life? And I say over and over again, you know, Aces, for the most part, we're not anti sex. If you love sex, it's totally fine. But I think for many people have many types of experience there does feel like this pressure to enjoy what we are told is the most pleasurable, important, exciting thing. And is there something in your life that you actually feel is more pleasurable, important, exciting, but you're afraid to admit that because it just doesn't seem as cool as loving a lot of sex? So, again, no judgement, just offering questions to think about
Speaker 2
as you're talking one of the terms that you use that was actually new to me within the book and I loved it. learning it because immediately it defined so many different things is the term queer, platonic. And it's interesting, actually, because NFE and I've talked, talked about this a lot in advance of this conversation where we were, when I hear out about a queer platonic relationship, and one that is deeply loving and not romantic or not sexual, depending on how you define romance, because actually, I know a lot of friends who cuddle and are physically close, but are not sexually close, and who have a bond almost as if they are siblings, or if if they are partners, but they are not partners. That is not an experience that I have had. That's not the type of friendships that I have had. And so in hearing that, that was actually really helpful. Because it was like, Oh, this is what it feels like to hear about someone else's experience and say, really, that's how you feel about that person. That's so interesting. I've never felt that way before. So that's so new to me. And so just kind of naming that, that it was really important, I think, for me to hear about someone else's experience and say, Oh, that's how you love. That's not me. And I wonder if you can just talk a little bit about that, because it sounds like some of the relationships that you're describing would fit potentially in that queer platonic category.
Speaker 4
Yeah, absolutely. So queer platonic is kind of a slippery word. And, you know, for a lot of people, it means, like you said, centering a relationship that's not necessarily romantic or sexual, but having that be a relationship, that's just as important to you. And I think it really reveals the fact that in most of our lives, it is assumed that the most important relationships will be the romantic one. And so I think that having that word, and having that experience, it just shows how many ways there are to relate. Because as it is, we have, you know, our family members, and we have our romantic partners, and then we have our friends. And you know, maybe within that there's our best friends. But, you know, there's so many feelings we have toward people can be so specific and individual. And oftentimes, they don't fit the rules of you're supposed to care about your romantic partner, more than everyone else, always. And so I think we're platonic just shows what it looks like when you kind of borrow from the language and the practices of romance, you know, the defining the talk relationship, and you know, what are we and how do we introduce ourselves and apply that to other non romantic relationships. So I think it's just a beautiful way of showing what that can look like. Because I think so often, many people have had the experience of having a relationship that's not romantic or sexual, but they're so important to you, and you want that validation, you know, you want them, you want to know that they care about you as much as you care about them. But it doesn't feel right to ask, it feels okay to ask your partner, you know, you care about me, right. But we don't have the scripts in the language to say that to our friends.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, that's true. That's so interesting.
Speaker 4
Yeah. And so I think just borrowing from that, you know, what if we took from romance and apply that to other areas of our life who were brave enough to ask the questions we wanted to ask, admits just interesting to think about?
Effy
Absolutely, I think it is genius. It also really supports our philosophy of relationship by design, we talk a lot about this idea of relationship by design. It's not necessarily about monogamy, non monogamy, but dynamically and consciously designing our relationships in a way that we can thrive. And in order to do that, understanding that relationships can come in all different shapes and sizes, and that they, we can shape them and we can, we can design them in collaboration with the people that that we're in a relationship with. And I think putting words to relationships, like quip, protonic, I think is really helpful to say, look, just to really sit and think about the relationship and allow it to be what it can be without worried without trying to put it into the only things that you know, so we were very excited to hear about queer, platonic, and we had a long conversation about it. And I was actually we were actually trying to figure out if Jackie, and I have a clip atomically I was just I was like, Who do you think who would I have that with? Yeah, it was a it was a fun conversation,
Jacqueline
right? Because in that moment, that's true. We were like, who are we? And how do we intend to how do we feel about each other? And that is, that is not a conversation I've ever had with a friend before. So your book and this conversation really ignited that for us?
Speaker 4
Yeah, I'm glad. And one thing I would add is that I think for a lot of people, we even feel uncomfortable using the word relationship, unless it's the romantic sexual relationship, right? I think many people are very careful to say my friendship with this person, because even to me, at least even the word relationship has these romantic connotations. But in you know, we our relationship with everyone. So why fit them into these categories? As you said,
Jacqueline
Yeah, I agree. Okay, so before we end our time with you, because we can keep talking forever. I want to we want to ask for rapid fire questions just to get to know you a little bit more, more than we have even with your book. And so, the first question is, what is one piece of advice that you would give to your younger self about love, sex or relationships?
Speaker 4
I think it would just be to challenge over generalizations Whether that is the narratives around sexual shame, or whether that is, as we talked about the narratives around how the most interesting, and the brave women are the most sexual ones. So just yeah, be more critical minded.
Effy
We love that we go by challenging the status quo and love sex and relationships here. And that is a good piece of advice to anyone. So I appreciate that. Okay, next Rapid Fire question. What is one romantic or sexual adventure on your bucket list?
Speaker 4
I think one thing that my partner and I haven't done yet is going along trip together. And so that is something on my bucket list. Because I keep hearing that that's when you really see who they are. And you know, you, you test whether you too, can get along when the car breaks down. So hopefully, after everything is opened again, you can do that.
Jacqueline
I love that. Yes, like cross country trip. That's something I've always wanted to do. And it's it's interesting, because I think that we think about it as like windows open and roof down and you're flying through the highway. But what happens when you're sitting in traffic for many hours? When you're hungry have to go the bathroom and there's no rest stop. So yes, I want to hear back about that. Okay, next question is how do you challenge the status quo.
Speaker 4
Now, let me this one's easy, I think just by being an ace person by being a person of color, because a lot of aces in the media are white. And by you know, my brand brand, my way a V ace, you know, which is, you know, I have partner I'm interested or romance I to have sex. I think that challenges what people even think a sexuality is or should look like.
Effy
Love that. And absolutely, I think definitely your book, the way that you're talking about it made me think about a sexuality in a way that I hadn't before. And it really sunk in for me. So I do actually appreciate that. And I really do appreciate your work on that. Okay, final question. What are you curious about lately?
Speaker 4
I mean, something I've been just thinking about a lot when it comes to say sexuality is how to define a sexuality as something other than a lack. You know, I talked a lot about how the reason we have to talk about sexuality all the time is because of that pressure. But I wanted to find a sexuality something other than not experiencing this thing that everyone else experiences. So what would that look like? So that's something that's always kind of in my mind, you know, how can we expand what asexuality means? How can we define it differently?
Speaker 2
Yeah, I agree. We talked about that too, a lot beforehand about defining in the negative and how do we flip that around and create it, make it use acid base language as original language? Yeah, really appreciate you having this conversation with us really appreciate the work that you did. And the book that you wrote, it has inspired many, many an hour's worth of conversation between Fe and I and the folks in our lives. And so just in an appreciation of you.
Unknown Speaker
All right, well, thank you so much. It was such a great conversation.
Jacqueline
So it was great interview, it was super interesting. I really enjoyed not only the book, but that conversation and the way it helped me think differently about my own sexuality, the sexuality of my partners and the folks in my life, and the way in which that I can show up differently, potentially in the world and really evaluate the either over sexualized conversations or the things that maybe we take for granted, that have to do with the way we think about sexuality and relationships.
Effy
Absolutely. Like I said, at the top of the episode, I was resistant to a bunch of ideas that I had heard about asexuality, though, sort of the top one being that it is a spectrum of some sort. So for a long time, I insisted that you can't really have a spectrum of absence, I now consider myself schooled. And I have a much broader, much deeper understanding about asexuality and the sexual experience and the romantic experience out in the world. And I think I also understand, I also understand its importance and what kind of dialogues they bring up that it is not really about. It's not really just about people identifying as asexual, but also the conversations that the idea of asexuality brings up in terms of our hyper sexualized culture or how we view relationships.
Jacqueline
Yeah, it's interesting because I think I was able to wrap my mind certainly around around those concepts and understood that within my own life, my own partnerships, I think where I struggled was all the terminology I know I am a person who as a kid, I walked around with a thesaurus to the point that the front cover almost wore off because I just held it all the time and use it all the time. And you are your happiest when you are thinking about and exploring etymology. So we are word nerds and so I wanted to understand all the words and all the terms and all the names and and it felt like a lot as we kept going down the rabbit hole of like terminology were like so many words. And I think that was something that I came to the table that felt like a challenge was why so much language why so much words? And I think the conversation really helped me understand that whether or not we learn all the terminology and learn all the words above and beyond the basics that we shared earlier. On the episode, it is important for the community to feel like there's language for folks to feel like they are represented and see a definition or see a term that captures their experience and that as a person of color as a queer person, that is something that resonated with me. And so that was really helpful in my shift and thinking.
Effy
Absolutely, absolutely. The other thing is that we both feel very passionately about this idea of relationship by design, right? That that we can really design our relationships dynamically and consciously in a way that we can thrive. And that idea of designing a relationship actually requires a lot of unlearning, and being analytical about relationships and taking apart all the layers of a relationship that otherwise society tells us to compress into one so that sex and romance and attraction and desire, all these things that we compress into, into a single experience a single container, and we call it a relationship. And I love that by breaking it apart by naming, what is sexual attraction? What is sexual desire? What's romance? What's platonic, it really, I think, allows people to think about their relationships in a detailed way, in an analytical way. And then really use that information to design and choose which parts of the relationships speak to them, which don't, what are the areas that they want to focus on? And what areas they don't? They may or may not need? So that was exciting for me. Yeah,
Jacqueline
I think the last thing that came up for me was just really understanding again, these distinctions between sexual attraction and sexual desire, realizing that people have sex for many different reasons for comfort for closeups, for bonding for boredom, and that having sex with somebody or sexually fantasizing about someone that those are all different things, and that we should not go about the business of conflating desire conflating behavior, conflating attraction, that those are all distinct and different, and should be discussed differently as well. Absolutely.
Effy
I thoroughly and I know here I can speak for Jacqueline to really, really recommend you read the book, you know, we've just barely touched on this topic in this episode. There is so much so much more to it than that. Even though the numbers the people who identify as asexual are relatively relatively rare. The conversation is really, really important in the context of our society, a culture politics in the way that we design our society. So it's an important book, you don't have to be asexual to read the book. There's just so rich with a point of view that we don't otherwise see very often. So go to we are curious foxes.com forward slash reading list. We put the book in there many, many other books in there as well. Yeah, read the book.
Jacqueline
So if you'd like to find more about Angela Chen, you can find her at Twitter @chengela. On Instagram @angelaetcetera, etc. Or on her website, angelachen.org. You can also find those in our show notes. And of course, find your book ace what asexuality reveals about desire society and the meaning of sex. If you want to find us on Instagram or Facebook, then go on to we are curious foxes, and explore behind the scenes videos of our workshops and lots more on Patreon. While you're on your phone, be sure to subscribe to podcast and while you're there, you can rate us and leave us a review. You can follow us on Spotify or Stitcher ratings tell the algorithm podcast gods that people like this show. Send us an email or voice message at listening at we are curious foxes.com
Effy
This episode is produced and edited by Nina Pollock, for whom we have a deep platonic love. Our intro music is composed by Dave Sahar. We are so grateful for their work, and we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends.
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