Ep 155: Hold Me Right, Surviving Sexual Violence and a Video Game with Danijela Steinfeld

What are the systemic factors that support rape culture? Why is it difficult for sexual assault survivors to find their voice? What does a journey towards healing look like?

In this episode, Effy and Jacqueline are joined by Danijela Steinfeld, a Serbian-born award-winning actress and filmmaker who is the director and producer of the documentary film Hold Me Right. The film explores the traumatic aftermath and healing process for survivors and perpetrators of sexual violence. Danijela shares the story of her assault and the journey towards finding her voice, and how she is working to eliminate sexual violence through a video game called Way Out.

Watch Hold Me Right: https://holdmerightfilm.vhx.tv/

Use code CURIOUSFOX for 30% off a 3-day rental of the film.

To learn more about Danijela
Danijela Steinfeld is a NY-based award-winning actress and an award-winning filmmaker, activist, and serial entrepreneur, born and raised in Serbia. The motivation behind the Way Out game came from her personal experience, being held captive and raped by a powerful politician, and from that harrowing trauma, her life's mission emerged. 

Danijela is the director and producer of Hold Me Right, a feature documentary about the traumatic aftermath and healing for victims and perpetrators of sexual violence, which also tells the story of her own traumatic experience. As an advocate and a public speaker, Danijela has been in the field of healing after trauma in a variety of roles and initiatives. Her main focus has been tackling root causes of rape culture, finding solutions and healing us all, as she believes we are all affected, directly or indirectly, by the epidemic of stigma when it comes to sexual abuse.

Instagram: @danijelastajnfeld
Twitter: @DaniSteinfeld_
LinkedIn: @danijela-steinfeld
Way Out: Game

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TRANSCRIPT:

Jacqueline

Before we start the episode, we want to let you know that we're gonna be talking about sexual assault, rape and attempted suicide. Please take care of while listening.

Effy

Welcome to the curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.

Jacqueline

And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today we're talking with Daniella Steinfeld. A Serbian-born award-winning actress and filmmaker, who's the director and producer of the documentary film hold me right. The film explores the traumatic aftermath and healing process for victims and perpetrators of sexual violence. Interweaving Danielle's personal story with multiple interviews from sexual assault survivors, perpetrators, and activists hold me right to create space for difficult conversations about power, where you culture and the stigma that comes with sexual abuse.

Effy

Daniela happens to be a good friend of mine. I've known her for the best part of a decade. I vaguely knew a story, I knew that she was a famous actor in her home country. I knew she was assaulted, which caused her to leave Serbia and seek refuge in the US. And I knew she was working on a film about this. But I didn't get to see the final cut until recently. And frankly, it blew me away. I've known that this documentary was a part of a healing journey. And her determination and making it despite all odds has been inspiring. This film is powerful. And at the end of this episode, we'll give you code that you can use to stream it. While Danielle's experience happened in Serbia. It made me curious about the statistics around sexual assault in the US. And they're staggering to say the least. According to the National Sexual Violence Resource Center, one in five women in the US experienced completed or attempted rape during their lifetime. One in three of these experienced it for the first time between the ages of 11 and 17. Nationwide, 81% of women and 43% of men reported experiencing some form of sexual harassment or assault in their lifetime, about half of the female victims of rape, reported being raped by an intimate partner, and over 40% by an acquaintance.

Speaker 1

I am a part of these statistics. After watching the documentary and having a conversation with Daniella, I felt compelled to confront some experiences that happened to me when I was younger. In particular, there were two situations of sexual assault that I experienced around the age of 16, one of which was reoccurring, and neither of which I've talked about. I'm not ready to talk about it right now on the show for the first time, but I've acknowledged that I should be talking about it with my therapist or my wife and partner at some point, or Honestly, even just saying it out loud to myself when I'm alone. Over the last 25 years, as soon as the thought or memory popped into my head, I pushed it back down as the emotional weight of it has felt too hard to carry. But I know that just because I'm not addressing it and frankly, because I am not addressing it, I am carrying the weight of it. I have never explored how the sexual assaults have impacted my view on my body, my power, my sexuality, my shame, I desire or anything else and it's not something that I've been willing to deal with. And our conversation with Daniella has allowed a little bit of light to enter into that dark space. And hopefully in time, I will be able and willing to talk about it with the people around me.

Effy

Daniela talks about how sexual assault starts way before the incident itself. There are often systemic and circumstantial power dynamics in place that result in the incident. The stories of assault start months, sometimes years before the assault itself. So we wanted to start with Danielle the story.

Danijela

I was born in a village in a war torn Serbia. And I couldn't ever imagine that I would have opportunities in life. We were raised to know that it's not going to go well. Basically because Serbia was under the war. We were under sanctions in embargo. We couldn't leave the country and being raised in a double minority family in a file. village in the middle of like kind of a nationalistic war. It was a very, very strange thing growing up, but I had a beautiful childhood. I am mentioning this because it was a humongous turn of events to be accepted to the acting Conservatory in Belgrade are hundreds and hundreds of people apply and only 10 People are getting in. So definitely some person that comes from a village that nobody has ever heard of in Serbia, nobody, including myself in my parents include any candidate that I met their throat like this ridiculous process of narrowing that down thought that I could ever get in. Just because of my heritage. And my accent, it was just unheard of. So we were all surprised it was it took me three days to after I was accepted to realize what has happened. So when I got accepted when people were just like screaming and cheering and my parents celebrating, like this ridiculous ridiculous fact that I did not feel anything, it took me like three days to get actually understand that like, oh, because the whole system of the 18 year old Daniela was set up like, there's not going to be opportunity. So it's took a really long time to understand that like, Oh, I got an opportunity. So one happened. And it was miraculous. And I had a beautiful career as an actress in Serbia, I worked in television, movies, and I've mostly worked in theater. And I was very young, when I was tenure, there was one of the youngest people that was ever tenure, the National Theatre in Serbia, which is a humongous honor. And I was the very first person that ever quit. From that position, because you don't have to quit Of course, you're tenured, it's very hard to quit from, you know, kind of intangible position such as a actor in, in the National Theatre. And I quit, because I happened to at the height of my career, I happened to be held captive and raised by a powerful politician who happened to be my colleague, so he was actor and politician, he is actor, not a politician anymore. But think about like, Trump or Reagan or some kind of fame person that's kind of works in both places. And so we were we were acting in both in leading roles opposite to each other in a kind of a show that has been gone going for a while, and I got so accustomed to my country's culture, which is, which is extreme, like misogyny and sexism is just kind of a daily, daily tapestry. And I couldn't even differentiate and I did not know that I'm kind of I really did not know that I'm equal to a man, I thought that like, like woman is something else, it's kind of a function. And even though I will kind of explored and, and, and expressed and engage myself into contemporary theatre pieces that are extremely progressive, and my characters were extremely progressive, I, back then I did not know what I did not know, which is that my understanding is that the only setting to a woman is to be set second to. So as I said, the hard thing was to differentiate that my friend I thought that that the perpetrator, time was my friend and colleague, and we worked really well and they had his consistent kind of sexual sexual proposes actions and inappropriate comments and grooming, basically, there's so many gaslighting, he was just kept on telling for months, you were like you need to sexually, you need to be sexually liberated, I can help you, you're stiff on stage. And meanwhile, I was actually that show was known for kind of me being recognized by the critics as like extremely far out, sexually liberated person. There was one particular scene that was not like explicit but but definitely had sought so much raw intimacy and expression in sex scene that we had like middle aged ladies in that moment, because it was kind of so as I said, everybody, apparently, production was happy what I was doing and critics praised and middle aged ladies were leaving theater on my panting we just showed that I did a good job. But the perpetrators kind of gaslighting kind of grooming narrative was that he needs to help me with it, and I didn't buy it. And anyways, maybe I'm going too far into into details, but I think that it's important for all of us to always understand that sexual violence starts before sexual violence. Sexual violence starts long ago it did these are not like isolated The incidents, and yeah, so eventually, long story short, I did this the first time I found myself alone with him in a car, he took me somewhere where I didn't know where I was on my crying and yelling and threatening and, and also just kind of couldn't recognize that this is my friend and also, but the bottom line when I was going there, which was kind of for me, I had still don't know how long that drive was whether it was 20 minutes or 40 minutes, it's hard to, to understand the time because my brain was losing it. I just couldn't understand that this person or anybody actually with such by myself in a such long public voice like I came from, from zero protection, zero safety, zero dignity into like 0.01% of population of Serbia that can have some sense of protection, in that that crazy country because I was known actor, I was able to kind of always get the seat of the table or get anybody on the phone that I possibly wanted. And you know, kind of when your face sits on Billboard's for years, then you somehow just think that like nothing, like truly bad can happen to you. I mean, you just, that's what you think, I sitting in that car, I realized that like, it's going to be an uncomfortable night. But I could never I could never imagine if you like just if you can like freeze me and stab me in that in that moment. And ask me like what's going to happen, it was like, it's going to be really uncomfortable. He's just going to be very, very persistent. And that has gone I have advances and maybe attempt to you know, groped me or whatever, but it will never be rape. Like it will never like this cannot happen, just straight up for all these reasons. So that was that was a very strange to say the least turn of events. And yeah, I did not know where I was, I did not know how to get out. And it was I was tortured for a long time. physically, sexually, psychologically, emotionally. And then, you know, there's so many holes that I don't remember some sometimes these moments are coming into in form of flashbacks. And I remember the kind of how we got back into the car. I don't remember I just don't remember the like, the, the like when when the doors open. And he, for the first time had like that night had a smile on his face. And his wife was calling him. There was a cell phone. And then it was always like buzzing. And he was driving home. And he hauled started to hold my hand. And he said to sing him songs. So I did. And he was just like smiling and kind of warm smile suddenly. Yeah. And he dropped me near my house was like four or 5am. And I was I remember, I shared that moment, I believe in my documentary sharing my story. But the moment when I was like, stepped on, on the ground from coming from his car was like, I never I will never forget that moment. It was just just everything was there. I was just so happy to be alive. That was all too. So so good to just like, hold my feet on the ground, to be able to walk. And that was that was just such a success. In that moment.

Effy

I can't even begin to imagine how this must feel. Do you remember what happened next? So

Danijela

I was able finally to look at my phone. This is like four or 5am something like that. And I had a friend in New York, somebody who was like on and off dating but a friend. And it was like a 10pm for them. And so my Gchat automatically as I turned on my phone or like kind of opened it got green. And then my friend asked me like what are you doing up? Because this was somebody that I have been dating, I think that that was kind of an instinct was like a kind of like, I need that security. So I was trying to tell him on a chat what has happened. But I was of course extremely confused. I felt very guilty. And I felt very scared. I was so uncertain like I knew that I knew that I needed help. So this stage of sharp was completely overwhelming my body my brain was not functioning another very well it was very very there was a matter of like one part of the brain is very matter of fact such as like, okay hospital rape kits, and kind of like and run run from the country that there was that was immediately kind of that execution and then there was all sorts of systems that are because of the violence and trauma, the brain shuts down. So my systems were still kind of coming up, basically, it kind of kind of turning on. So there was many, many parts of us that we, which is very hard, also very harsh for us in the context of like a legal system of proving something, what we remember what we don't remember why we reacted the way we did, it's very hard to explain. And of course, science has proven it over and over again, about like, what rain does in traumatic moment. And especially if this is there's so much confusion for the system, because everything that was safe, suddenly, is not. So every signal of like, this is my friend, this is my community. This is my country, this is this is where I belong. This is where I'm celebrated and loved needed wanted a respected part of the relationship, every relationship that means kind of like a colleague or friend, all of that is just placed upside down. So that's so it's very hard to kind of reason in those moments. But I did have a as I said, I had a chat. It's like a sense of like, okay, I need to collect evidence. And I need to do a rape kids, and I need to run from the country. But however, I'm the most the biggest wound was some, like my being was just dead basically. And like the humanized and ruined, so I needed some kind of sense of embrace, but I was afraid that like a rape to being damaged, this is what I understood that like this, this day, the New York that I really need to tell him what has happened, that He will reject me the moment that he here. So it was a very difficult I needed help. But I'm so afraid of suffering more consequences for being raped than after I kind of got myself so yeah, so that chat still, we still have that chat. Really, he understood that it's rave, like I couldn't say it. But it was it's very painful. So to watch me how many times I apologized and was just so scared. And I understood that I want to do a rape kit. And I understood that, like Google the beds, realize that if I if I if I do go to the hospital, every single nurse will be like, we'll just route that the there's no one actress came to our hospital for rape kids. And then like if I was thinking about private clinic and bribing, which is very way of operating in Serbia, and like should I try that? And then I realized that like if if anybody's asking for rape kid, which is probably in the, like, 10 years ago in Serbia, it's like two, maybe a year because nobody was reporting rape. Nobody was talking about it. I knew that like by the law, whoever it is, they will call the police. Actually not because Serbians are so care to follow the law. It's just because it's still even day to day after I spoken up and many brave women spoken up. The ingrained thing is if somebody tells you that they've been sexually violated, assaulted or raped, you should question their credibility. That's kind of so so deeply ingrained so that's the first thing that like wait a second so luckily actually for me I did not to call for for help and did not go anywhere I don't think that I would be with you guys today what would happen is that this will go to the media who was a really powerful politician of the time and this will be all decimated and I would I was in such state of shock so so shredded. Like I just did not have any anything that would can say like a like a Daniella. It was just all like shredded into pieces. I needed to pick myself up together back to whole self. It's took many, many years. By the time like I was just sorting so so I was so broken that I would just not survive the direct kind of outlash

Effy

How old are you? Daniela?

Danijela

So 2727.

Effy

So, I mean, you're young, right? This is the young with, you know, with not that much experience.

Danijela

I feel like you know, I knew better. I've been through as a 27 year old. I definitely you know, I lived in Belgrade for many years I've been through you know, Belgrade is awful rough, rough space for young women and young artists. And so I thought that I definitely knew better that I can definitely judge the situation and character. So that was also that's why that's why my my inner like, innate sense of judgment was broken because it wasn't that that happened to me when I did not have Have any reflection to the world and, and kind of basically, just perception was, you know, when you're young you don't you don't have anything to compare anything to, but I definitely knew better. So that was a very, very, very strange,

Effy

I find, when I hear these stories, just a layers of damage that goes beyond that one experience of being sexually assaulted. It's like, it not only just like, breaks you in that moment, but it breaks your connection with yourself. It connects with others, your sense of safety, your sense of selves, it's such a damaging such a damaging crime, it's such as damaging attack, that I don't think even when people say, Oh, someone was raped, I don't think we understand the depth of the damage that how, how deep it goes, and how how deep and wide it goes, right? Because it's not just the person that that has affected. It definitely, like breaks them shreds them down to their core, but then it has a blast radius of all the people around you that also affected and how was your experience in terms of like, the depth and the blast radius?

Danijela

Well, I didn't want to that to be my reality. So I thought if I, if I would flee to to the states, and show up not knowing, you know, I knew two people in New York basically, at the time, nobody will know this. Nobody, why would I have to have I don't have to notice I can just scan go all the time. And that is gone. It's solved. It's like that's the solution. So that's what that was my plan. And I was very euphoric about it. I was just like, from the worst, where's the kind of experience that fell that completely broke me I can just revive and forget about it. Why enough cadets? That solution is amazing. So let's do that as soon as possible. So I was begging theater to let me go, made some false excuses. And I find myself in New York, again, for a night sleeping, drinking a lot. And I'm not a drinker. Never felt drunk when they're drinking, but definitely consistently buzz for drinking, not sleeping, zero appetite. And then somewhere I just went one day towards the subway, and some noise, maybe it was a black guy that like reminded me of a black but all black cars were reminding me of his for a really long time. And I just lost breathing, like completely lost breathing, I have no idea why people are trying to help me at street. And it was to confine and fine, it was so strange, you know, I kept on thinking like maybe as laid off swallow something. And so I keep you know, just not connecting at all, I see that, you know, I definitely remember myself understanding that like I am a different type of person right now. Like I don't cannot recognize myself from that day on. Like everything that it was just, you know, my reactions were odd that unrecognizable to myself like and just in general, the way I acted the way I handled myself, my thought process. So after a couple of panic attacks that I did not know that a panic attacks and I called hotline and I shared to some anonymous person, it was a male, male voice, DEEP MALE VOICE. And I was sharing it maybe somehow, like matter of fact, as I'm sharing it with you, but they broke down and started crying. That's the first time that like with with that witness, I was just I started to like feel My goodness. And this This is horrible. And I had no idea how to how to get out and how to live. So it was that that cry for help was two things I did actually get help and free counseling. But that that the fact that this male person which was somehow important to me at the time, kind of they cried instead of me. That's something give me permission to kind of embrace myself and kind of say that like this is this is not okay, it took me a year of counseling to start to like wait a second, well, maybe, maybe also the rapist did something wrong. So that was the matter of how much I was blaming myself because I knew better because I saw like I should have seen the signs. I should have should have fired it even though the guy has like a black belt. But it says this is also just for the listeners that the fight is like fighting back in the depths of sexual violence is this is not a matter of strike. length or who is bigger, the sexual violence is not about sex has nothing to do about sex or about our sex organs. It's all abuse of power. So sexual violence, where as I said to happen before the sexual violence act, that starts before and, and it has to do with abuse of power, and in order to, to abuse power into somebody, you have to kind of overpower them power dynamically. So that happens so long before and so it has nothing to do much with strength, meaning that like I can, I can clearly see being assaulted by, you know, like a person that is just doubled, doubles smaller than I am. If that makes

Jacqueline

sense. I imagine that the power dynamics didn't just impact you in that moment. It also impacted you in the aftermath. Did you feel like you were in danger, even after the sexual assault was over?

Danijela

Actually, that's kind of is a beautiful prelude to our film. Hold me right. That's the very your question is the very question that pointed me out to make a film, because it's impossible to navigate that space. So it's almost impossible to find a person that's tried to deal with the aftermath of sexual violence, that the decent find that dealing with aftermath, reaching out for help is dangerous, is very high. I don't remember I interviewed 400 Well interviewed or screened 400 and interviewed 40 victims of rape. And none of them told me that it wasn't dangerous to seek for help.

Effy

That you mean that it felt dangerous to actually say like to say out loud what happened and ask for for help.

Danijela

Now that it's all dangerous, it was it still is dangerous. So what I'm trying to say that like you are seeking help, you might feel guilty, ashamed, broken. And when you seek for help, you are being asked for your responsibility, kind of a your accountability for why somebody assaulted you. Questions that imply shame, questions that imply judgment, onto your actions, disbelief. And that all kind of you that's kind of feels that you've been raised over again, because again, there's some kind of some kind of confirmation that like, Well, you shouldn't you, somebody should have abused your power, if that makes sense. Like, I don't know how to put in a better clearer words, but it's, it's an impossible maze to go through. So how to navigate a space where for you to win you reaching out for helps for you to feel that you will be seen heard and judged. It's it's impossible people the question such as like, wait a second is really rape you think that you fight? Why didn't you tell anybody then? Or did you tell anybody? But why didn't you, you know, all of this implies that you kind of contributed to somebody deciding and acting abusively and violently towards you and your body and your humanity, your choice, your will your power.

Effy

It's like, there's what happened. And they're the echoes of it as you try to tell your story and get your help. And then the backlash of that is kind of making you real, you relive that, that trauma. Yeah.

Danijela

In other words, we have, unfortunately, because we live in, in a culture of stigma and silence and disbelief and shame about these issues. One thing is to get over trauma, the other thing is to get over kind of judgment and yeah, and but the lack of support is that will be that will be easy. Like if somebody just like if there is if there is just silence from from another side, that will be easy, but when there is judgment, like like we you should have, you should have yes, that, that that that traumatize us, that's called secondary victimization. And it's very unfortunate that it's it's almost impossible to find somebody that haven't been gone through it. And that's the answer to the question why we are silent because it's dangerous to seek for help. You have to deal with to two sets of traumas. One is one is surviving violence. The other one is surviving asking for help.

Effy

Yeah, what comes up for me is what happens to the violence and then it's the abandonment which is which is traumatizing. And I and I don't mean in abandonment also like not seeing you in judgment. In so that that sort of bigger sense of abandonment, like something really bad happens to you, and then you're abandoned for it. And because of it, and I think that is tragic. I mean, that is traumatic on its own. We know that abandonment is a core trauma for for the human psyche. So you have an actual violence of violence that happened to you. And that is traumatizing. And there's an opportunity, actually, we know how trauma works, if in that moment, you were supported and loved and seen and heard that trauma would sit differently in your body. But I think what happens is from what I'm hearing from you is, this is a secondary to the trauma, you're then abandoned, and kind of tossed out and judged and unseen, unheard, accused, and all those things. And that to me, like no big bowl of abandoned out there, which means that you're now left with your trauma. And that means that the trauma is like stuck in your body into your bones into the fiber of your being. And then you have to deal with that as well.

Danijela

Right? So it's confirmation from the society, This shouldn't have happened to you, if that makes sense.

Effy

Yeah. Yeah. So that was your situation that was yours. And then you did something very, very brave. You said, at least this is what I understand. From your story. You said, I'm not doing this, I'm going to talk about it. I'm going to give everybody a voice. And this is something that we need to talk about. I want to can you speak a little bit to how you went from your experience, how you went from your own healing journey, your own trying to process what's happened to you into deciding that you want to make a film about it.

Danijela

I was in the kind of rock bottom. In my life, I had symptoms of PTSD that were on a daily basis. And that's being, as I mentioned, insomnia, panic attacks, inability to meet new people inability to go to auditions, if I went to audition, and saw anybody that would be even close to an appearance of, of the perpetrator or having any kind of like a mathematical in appear, I would froze. So I couldn't work. I couldn't socialize, I couldn't be in a car without having panic attack or on Highway couldn't fly in planes. And I just was so dysfunctional, and in silence, I didn't want to burden my my family with what has happened, they will be crushed, and how bad I kind of like how poorly I was dealing with, with existing. So I planned suicide for a long time, and I attempted suicide. And I was miraculously saved because I hid my suicide notes really badly, apparently, and my friend founded and before I was able to do it, they called the police. I called the police back, telling them it's a false alarm thinking that they will not show up. This is La California. I was like hiding from my New York friends in order to attempt suicide. And I was arrested and somehow got myself out of it. I was thinking that like okay, well, next time I'm gonna do it, right. But meanwhile, I did this long, long silence was alarming to my friends in New York and they reached out and something crack they didn't want to tell them exactly what's going on. But something cracked in my in my sharing and they realized that I'm just definitely not okay, and they do everything they could to get them into New York, which was actually took me like month of some counseling, free counseling. Although all of this time actually I just want to mention that the from New York and LA I was getting free counseling, which was life saving. I know that now. But I fought hard to get that free counseling, but without it I would not be here today. So the counseling for for after suicide was just to try like how can I get on a plane and not have panic attack to like, compared to Kashmir, so to get myself to New York, and I did. It was funny, it was like a red eye from LA, which is you know, everybody was sleeping and then yellow eyes for six hours just like wide open eyes. Like so excited that I made it like that I managed to like breathe. So for six hours, I was just like excited that I'm breezing through this. Then close my eyes for a second. And that's like I'm going towards my saving towards being you know, being held and saved and in my friend's arms and that's exactly what happened and and I shared what has happened to me. And my friends shared that they will be here here for me unconditionally. I can stay in their house no matter how long they need, like can show up no matter how or in any way, shape and form. I had, like just very the symptoms of PTSD can be just extremely troubling for people around around us. And it's very difficult and, and they imposed a safe and nurturing and loving space. And that was my first safety. And it was so much that I wanted to live again. And then I was thinking like, Wait a second. So all that is needed for a healing, overcoming and empowering a survivor of trauma is a loving support. Like, that's the cure. And, and that's it. And I was just kind of such as, you know, weeks long aha moment that was like I have to do that, like people need to know about it. The cure is free, cheap and accessible. And it does wonders, it can empower us all. So I was just like, Okay, I have to, I have to, I have to share this story. And how better to share the story, but with the kind of diverse type of voices and experience that they all share the same experience we have. So in my documentary about healing after sexual violence, I've I've was grateful to have voices from so many different backgrounds, the men and women, different circumstances, different different ages, different accounts of violence and circumstances survived with all the same experience of like, we need safety, dignity, to speak up. And that's the pure. So when that formula was kind of clear in my head that like this is I'm not alone in this. This is something that affects so many people, then that was such a strong drive, that I couldn't stop. And before you know, I like new new in this in this country without experience in creating films, documentaries, producing, writing script, I remember, I did not know how to do words like how to spell manager how to spell receive. And it was so funny, I just never know it. But it was like, I don't know how to spell even English well, like Google autocorrect is going to help me. And I'm just going to wing it. And it's going to be great. So I was I was very, very resistant to raise money and to get to try to work with professionals. And get them on board. It was very it was that that was the hardest part is to get get to making community to to work with me was just impossible. Because I was like I'm a I'm a survivor. I'm from Serbia and never made a film. I want to make a film about healing after trauma. And I'm going to include voices of perpetrators and victims and people just like okay, I'm to work with this crazy woman. This doesn't sound good. And because because we did it and I'm so proud of what we made. And I think it's important. And I think that the voices of accounts of of aftermath for the perpetrators are very crucial to hear and understand because actually, that kind of gives us an answer. Why is it so difficult to reckon with aftermath of trauma? Why is like were these people collected safety to do that, as one of the perpetrators child abuser is sharing that, like he knew that the chances for this child to report what has happened to them is so low, so the chances are, that he can get away with it. And the other perpetrators who were sharing that this is the right to do so. If the woman is in their in their space in their private space in their house, that what what else one should expect?

Effy

I thought I mean your film hold me right is beautiful. Just it's just it's just beautiful, beautifully made. And what I love about it is sort of the 360 Look at this one horrible, violent acts and you have the victims, you have the perpetrators, you have family members, you have people who have grown into being an advocate and support and allies and you have people who kind of just want to leave it behind and move on with their life and it's just as 360 Look at this is what I mean about the blast radius like it has such a huge impact on so many different people. And what I love about your your film is that it gets into all of those nooks and crannies like the angles that you don't over. You don't hear about, like the father who was talking about his daughter being raped and how he's reacting to it and how he was saying you one of the things that really stood out for me he said An eye for an eye makes the world go blind. He's like you don't What It's Like until it happens to you, I'm going to stand by my daughter, I'm going to support her I'm not going to, I'm not going to continue violence by going after the person who violated her. Like, there's just like moments of just insight, like raw real insight of what happens when this happens when this happens to you and all the people around you, and how people just make different decisions and it's all okay. It's, it's just how you're dealing with it as it is. Okay. So that was, you know, super, super interesting. And the perpetrators and I agree with you, like, you know, some repenting, right, like, I knew I was wrong, I did anyway, but I understand damage that I caused it's unexcusable. Like, there's that. And there was this, like, well, I didn't think it was such a big deal. I did it to some women, and they were into it and I did to other women that weren't into it. And it's like, just do it and see how it goes down. Like that attitude. There was Fallout denial, like I didn't I you know, we were drunk, and it didn't happen. I didn't rape her. The range of of that experience reporting was also super interesting. Oh, it's

Danijela

it's funny, the account of the man in prison that that we're young, barely adult, individuals, both both drunk. And the lady reported rape. That's that's usually a topic for discussion for after, after the film, because people have divided opinions whether whether this man should have ended up in prison or, or not. So his interest is interesting to hear your take?

Jacqueline

Yeah, there's a moment in your film to where you show clips of movies and advertisements that highlight the environment and the society in a way of thinking that has not only allowed but encouraged men to show up that way that they're these these like, little bits of things, that scene together, were shocking to me. I've likely seen them in movies and seeing them certainly in ads, but to see them all clustered together painted such a picture of the lack of humanity of both women and children. And the dominance that men not only have but should have. And I thought again, I think it painted the picture to why then those perpetrators had that mindset of, well, what was the problem? I mean, she resisted, but you know, I don't understand what was wrong with that.

Effy

And like, it's funny, my dad is really into western seats is one of his like, secret delights, he'll just sit and watch, you know, Western every day. And then so and when I was little, I would watch it with him. And now you know, I'm older, I sometimes catch him watching Western and I sit there and watch it. It's incredible how much rape is in westerns, like, straight out rape, and then and then what happens is, you know, a man, sometimes multiple men, like, just kind of overpower a woman. And it's right for all intensive purposes. And then suddenly, she's in love with him. And that is, you know, we see this in early James Bond, we see it in adverts we see, you know, this is such a thread that runs in our, in our media, in our in our film, or in, you know, in our series, and it's insidious. It's like, it's so ingrained in there. And I agree with Jackie when I saw that, that montage of like, all these different films, you know, always the big ones, like double Oh, seven, it's like Star Wars, like all these, like big classics, have those moments when, you know, the hero is somehow like, persisting and overpowering a woman. Even she No, no, no, no, no. And she eventually gives in, and that's where I love comes from. Like, there's the one I think there's one scene where it's like, this is real love or something like that. And you're like, Wow, that's great. Yeah, that's yeah. Well,

Danijela

as I love to say, narratives are realities. Your narrative is our reality. So when when we're wondering, like, Where does this permission to violate come from? It comes from, from how we are brought up and how we are what is our belief system? And there's there is a culture of permission. That's how we raised our boys. Hopefully, not anymore.

Effy

So I'm curious than you know, having made the movie spoken to like screened for 400 people and eventually interviewed 40 people quite in depth. How has that experience expanded your understanding of your of your situation, your story, and sort of sexual assault in general like has what's changed for you?

Danijela

So my idea of making the film for my own healing was that I will speak throughout them and I will hide my story because it's not safe for me to speak. And then only in the Rough Guides, I took courage to share my story which was very troubling and and scary at the time, and I'm so glad I've done it. And after the release of the film was premiered in Sarajevo Film Festival, Serbian media took it to questioning and speculations I did not want to share the name of the perpetrator in a film or imply who that person is. That's what not the theme of the film. And frankly, it's not important, like for my my bigger mission to share the the name of the perpetrator publicly. But the pressure arose the public prosecutor, open investigative case, on a kind of a criminal investigative case. And by the law of Serbia, I'm obligated by the law to participate as a witness. So I had to, and eventually I had to tell the name. And from the moment I shared the name to the police and the perpetrator, the prosecutor, begging them to keep this case and not not release the media, they the first, first next day, they spoke publicly, like the spokesperson for the public prosecutor, she spoke out publicly to say, the first person is and now I'm being kind of retaliated legally for speaking up by the perpetrator and by the government, that that basically, they're aiming to raise criminal charges for false reporting of rape, that I, as I said, I never reported, I was called as a witness as a witness of what the prosecutor looks me in the eyes of your rape. That's hilarious. And then later on, kind of the narrative should be there should be put in prison for that. So I moved on from your question. But all this all this to say this is I am, I am, I feel so happy and lucky and grateful to myself that I spoken out. Speaking up is healing, speaking up is empowering and speaking up. So what happens when people speak up, when you are in silence, you are telling your body, so bye bye, Body Keeps the Score, it feels trauma, it holds it. And when your silence, you're telling it, it didn't happen. You are telling it also, this shouldn't happen. You shouldn't have, we don't need to deal with it, nobody needs to know about it. And kind of you're sharing it like you're supporting the narrative of the perpetrator that didn't like it didn't happen. And when you're speaking out, you know, you can share this your story just to just your loved one, just to your diary, just two or three, you know, you don't have you don't have to go and speak up publicly, but shake sharing, it means that you are communicating with your being that like, this is not okay, and I am fighting it until you're in silence. There's, in a way you're telling you, it's okay. You tell him to everything that aches you and everything that you feel just less than and half of you. And you just definitely you don't feel whole, you don't feel that you have agency integrity, and voice. And you somehow like standing with violence. I don't know how better to put in like a better clearer expression, but being silenced is standing with violence. And so if anybody's needs to hear this, it's it's the most healing thing is to speak. And that will become hard because then the narrative of speaking is changing. And that's okay. First, very likely will feel ashamed and kind of feel blaming yourself and feel uncomfortable. And that narrative is like as the longer you speak is just going to if you find the right listener, and compassion, sometimes as I said, compassion might be on a piece of blank paper or on a piece of blank canvas, or on a piece of, you know, instrument with musical instruments. Art is extremely healing for expressiveness. But that narrative is going to start shaping and it's, you know, what, it's incredible. I met people that are so strong and involved in human rights and fighting for human rights. And then later on after seeing hold me right, they started to speak about something that's happened decades ago. And even though they know everything about the process, logistically, psychologically, spiritually, they need to go through this ordeal. Whoa, like, I feel so ashamed. And I didn't do this, right. And I'm blaming myself and so all of all of this weights from culture are deaths that blueprinted in us and no matter how much you cognitively kind of empirically know You still have to go through that, that kind of steps to empowerment by by speaking up so it takes a while it's not like a one one sharing and and done. This takes a lot a lot of speaking and we as a society need to have eyes and ears for it and just kind of listen and hold people in that space and have patience, then he kind of healing and overcoming this will will arise. And then I would love to for all the curious Fox listeners to share a link to all me right film that will be available for after we release this podcast for seven days. And we can we can share a special link if if anybody would want to see hug me right?

Effy

Absolutely, I would encourage even need it sexual assault is nothing is nowhere near you, I would just recommend, I would recommend this this film because it's it's beautifully made. And it has some point of views that that I haven't seen before in any other documentary that's made about it about this. So. So thank you so much for making it available for our listeners. I have one more question about the film, there was your experience, which is very real and raw, and you processed it in you know, and you at some point, you realize that healing a part of the healing process is sublimating and making this film your art, which is which is you know, it's your art, your expression. And having spoken to all these people. I'm curious if there is, if you had any realizations, any revelations that you didn't, you didn't know before about sexual violence or rape, anything that you heard from the people that you interviewed and was like, Whoa, I never thought about that. And another sort of sub questions that is, what is it that we don't talk about when it comes to sexual violence? Like out in the world, we know what repairs is conversations about rape, but what what is what is some of the deeper stuff that just never makes it

Danijela

making of hold me rave was selfishly my healing process, my learning process? So to answer your question was tons of things that I've that I'm sharing today with you that I've learned throughout the film, I went into making this film with still blaming myself feeling guilty and feeling very scared to speak up. So this was a big, big trajectory. But still the biggest take was first I stood with this in front of this brave survivors that share their story with such grace, poise, freedom and dignity. And I couldn't understand that that one can do that. So that was a big tape of how did they get there? And that was my, my wish and my question. And another big take was was which I shared about the perpetrator that like, how would like how would they got a signals from our society that this is okay. And just to add, so even for the listeners that think that sexual violence is math, in their arena, it is it's actually the statistics are so incredibly painful to understand how common sexual violence is, still most of us are still in silence. And yeah, this affects way too many, you know, men and women and children, then we would like to kind of brace with that fact. And so yeah, so this, this actually concerns most of us. I mean, I this was a great of correlations to heard last week about like COVID and COVID cases and long haul, and deaths. I mean, Sexual Violence and Sexual harassment is as much, you know, we just normalize it, but the statistics of sexual violence and harassment are threefold than to than to the worst cases and statistics about COVID. Speaking over the long haul, and speaking of suicides, and then femicide are still so common. So this is this is an epidemic, unfortunately, that we we normalized and we live with, and we need to we need to stand up and our generation needs to be the one that says like, no, enough is enough. And by the time that we are all Daffy, my pledges that we will not have to have these conversations and these types of podcasts, that this will be something that was it's normal to stand on the side of survivor to believe survivor, that that's a default, as opposed to today, by believing one survivor, you are saving at least three or five around you, because it's always a ripple effect of that of that safety. Yeah, I would also just want to mention In my current project is video game men for younger men, and it addresses sexual harassment in in a form of adventurous one player mobile game. And in a very hidden and kind of a stealth approach to the subject. Imagine like I call it the like way out game is basically a Trojan horse filled with an agent of change. So you like you don't know that you that you're getting the subjects you're playing a very fun, adventurous you know, survival Quest game. And that comes deep in and so you know, correlated, kind of like the the gameplay and narrative and setting this is all connected. And once you're already hooked and engaged, this topic like very, very slowly just kind of enters Atkinson's arena, and helps you understand the consequences. And helps you understand that what is what is your role as a active bystander in the game. So hopefully, we will we will teach and, and train young men to compassion and to listening and to understanding that that's kind of a sexual misconduct and harassment is is it's kind of it's a gateway to sexual violence. And it should stop before it even happens.

Effy

And I love that you're going you're going where young men are to meet them where they're at, to teach them, the show them and teach them to show them that stuff where they already hang out, which is beautiful, rather than just screaming at them from where they're not listening anyway. So I love I love your game idea. And we'll definitely you know, include all the information for everything on the show notes as well. So people can click around and support you. I know you're raising funds for it right now. So you know, as a call out to anybody whoever is interested in go and check it out. If you can support in any way. Go ahead and go ahead and do it. There's one last thing I want to ask you. We know each other from the sex positive community in New York City, we've hung out a party together and explored polyamory at the same time. You've told me before how these communities were an integral part of your healing journey. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Danijela

It was very interesting. So from outside, when you're going to like a kind of sex positive environment, or sex parties, or sexy parties are kind of sexy, encourage parties also socialize social spaces, you think that there's going to be something kind of pressured over there yet, for for my troubled rain at a time. First time that I went into kind of sex positive space and sex party, that was a kind of a controlled environment, that here I have witnesses, witnesses. So I know, that I was told and I can clearly see, nothing will happen to me that I don't want it to happen to me. And my voice might know, my silence, my insecurity will be heard seen, and I will be safe. So this was the first environment that was safe and press environment that was actually able to, to free myself sexually for the first time after the assault the very first time. So it was extremely healing. So it's very funny from outside things that like oh, this, like, you know, kind of like people that are going through in the aftermath of trauma should never go to a sex party. But this was actually extremely healing environment, because it's actually kind of controlled, and this is the instead of being alone with another person. You here have vouching witnesses. So, you know, nothing will happen to you that you don't want.

Effy

Beautiful. Yeah, I mean, I completely see how that would work for you. And I also think that the experience the way that those spaces are so explicit, you also feel like you know, what's going to happen as well, like it is not, is it going to happen? Is it not going to happen? It's verbal, its explicit. So you also have control over what's happening, you don't have to guess you don't have to assume it's just very explicitly in front of you, I can also see how that can also be a piece of safety.

Danijela

Well, it doesn't have to be kind of in front of me or like that I know what's going to happen, I can actually go with the flow and just surrender to the moment. Because I know that I can flow, anything that I want, kind of will happen and everything that I that I don't want, it will be it will be respected kind of. So actually, it's not the kind of even kind of a pre pre given recipe but rather ability to surrender to the moment which is kind of Candida is the core of sexual experience.

Effy

Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, beautiful. I mean, I completely understand how that would that would work for you. And then thank you for sharing that. This was amazing. I mean, I've known you for a long time. But this is really the first time I've heard your story and to end, thank you for sharing. It's not I know you're doing it out loud. And so what you're just a part of your journey. But I do appreciate you just like taking your time and, and telling your story here for for the podcasts that you've supported for a very long time. So it's been a pleasure to have you pleasure, an honor to have you on the show. So I appreciate it.

Danijela

Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Jacqueline

If you'd like to support or find out more about the video game that Daniela is working on, you can visit way out game.com or email her at info at wayo game.com. For more from Daniela Steinfeld, you can find her at Twitter at Danny Steinfeld underscore and on Instagram at Daniel Stanfill. Visit our show notes for link and a special code to stream the film. And after you watch the documentary, visit the website to get a discussion guide to help you process and discuss the topics that emerge from the film. The guide is available at hold me right.com Forward slash discussion dash guide. All the links will be in our show notes. If you'd like to share your reactions to this conversation or the documentary, you can start a conversation on our Facebook group at we are curious foxes. You can also visit our website at we are curious foxes.com for episodes, blog posts and resources on unrelated topics and more under the umbrella of Love, Sex and Relationships, their bonus cuts, mini episodes, online workshops and a whole lot more available to you on Patreon @werecuriousfoxes. share this episode with someone who you think needs to hear it. And if this conversation meant something to you leave a review for the podcast on Apple, Spotify, audible stitcher or wherever you're listening. And if you haven't already, please follow us and leave a rating. This is how the podcast algorithm decides if it's going to recommend our show to others. If you have questions or story that you'd like to share, you could send us an email or voice memo at listening@wearecuriousfoxes.

Effy

This episode is produced by Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla. With help from Yağmur Erkişi . Our editor is Nina Pollock, who helps us tell powerful stories episode after episode. Our intro music is composed by Dev Sahar, we are so grateful for their work, and we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic. We solely aim to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends.

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