Ep 158: Masturbation Month, Self Care and Political Subversion

artwork by the talented @alvarocastrodesign

Can masturbation be an act of self care and political subversion? What are all the benefits of masturbation? If there are so many benefits of masturbation, why don’t we do it more? 

In this week’s episode Effy and Jacqueline have a lighthearted and wisdom packed conversation about masturbation in honor of Masturbation Month. They share their personal practices, beliefs and stories about self pleasure; explore the myths, social and religious conditioning about it, and put out a plea for a better sounding language for the topic.  

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Curious Fox @wearecuriousfoxes
Effy Blue @coacheffyblue
Jacqueline Misla @jacquelinemisla

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TRANSCRIPT:

Effy

Welcome to the curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.

Jacqueline

And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today we are talking about masturbation because it is masturbation month.

Effy

My favorite thing about me

Jacqueline

Yeah, I love masturbation. Well, I have a love hate relationship with masturbation, we're going to talk about that. But what I hate hate, there's no love there is the name masturbation, I think it is the worst sounding word in the history of words. Nobody's like, I want to masturbate. Like, there's just so many like, like letters and sounds in that that sounds so terrible. And almost every Western language uses some version of that word. So go out there into the world now and Google it. Google masturbation several languages, and you will see that it's just different. It's like messed up shoe Massa. Sure. Mr. Like, it's just all about the restaurant.

Jacqueline

Exactly. Except Except for like the Swedes and the Norwegians and the Danish. Like they have chosen different words and some folks and like the east, but the rest of us pick the worst word ever.

Effy

I think it was it last year or something where like, the worst word in the world was moist. And I'm like, I'm the I don't really care about moist. I hear you on masturbation. Yeah. And the reason why all the Western world says masturbation because it has roots in Latin and Latin. It's literally masturbation, and then all the all the western languages. And obviously, it's such a taboo subject we even I, okay, this is something so how words change, right? We look at the original, and because they get used and use and use and over time, they adapt and they change and then we get the language that we have today. Masturbation is so taboo, that we haven't spoken about it since the Romans, so it's just steed.

Jacqueline

Exactly. It's so terrible. And honestly, what is as terrible to me is like the other things that we call it, like jerking off and winking and like, all the things, I'm not a fan of any of those things.

Effy

I am kind of a fan of wank, like, I do, like the word wank. And I like it. Because it's like, if to me, it's a little subversive, because one thing is, is a very male word, like, especially in the UK, where I grew up, it's boys who went and over the years, it goes without saying it. And I liked the idea of just using that word, which was kind of colonized by boys and men. And I like saying, now I'm gonna go and have a wank. It just feels subversive. So like, that's how I roll. So I like Wang. But yeah, masturbation is just like there's nothing sexy about it and Yakov.

Jacqueline

I know we need to come up with a new word. We should ask Chad GDP. Someone asked the AI to come up with a better word than masturbation. I love that idea. When you silly masturbation sounds just like not like harsh and I don't like it and so wide call out we should do it. Let's have a contest. Whoever comes the best word. I don't know what the prize will be. The prize will be renaming the word. Yes. History. Yeah, please do that because it's terrible. Yes. Hate the name. Love the practice, though. The practice you know, very little complaints about that.

Effy

Why do you love it so much? Because it's not

Speaker 2

more as much love as need I think that I if I did not do it, I believe that I would likely explode into pieces. The best way that I can picture it in my mind is I don't know if you've seen like those like cartoon like whistles where like, it starts like heating up and then like the top of it, like explode like pops open. It's like the whistle blows and it's like shaking like that would be me like if I never did it. I think I would just like it like all of the like, the blood flow and Sexual Energies was like build up in my body and then like the top of my head would like pop off and I'd be like,

Effy

That's so funny. Yeah,

Speaker 2

there's just there's a lot of stuff. There's a lot of flow happening. There's a there's a lot happening in my body. So I think truly, the biggest reason is like physiological. I don't even need to necessarily even be turned on it. doesn't need to be I can masturbate with and finish within 60 seconds notice every time I could do it, I can do it without touching myself. I can do it almost anywhere like it is it is become a way just a normal way of me kind of regulating I think I use it to like, calm my nerves

Effy

calm your nerves. That's like Yeah 17th century have you? Were you having hysteria?

Speaker 2

exacerbation recommend we I am a hysterical woman. I think people Yes. I'm sure many people over the course of my life, but don't call me hysterical woman. If you do not know we're talking about you should also Google that. Add that to your Google list for today. I think it started in like ancient Egypt. And then of course, like the Greeks had all sorts of analysis about it around around hysteria being this condition, medical condition that was recognized for like 1000s of years and it was blamed for the all of the mount the issues that were happening with women that there was something that was happening within our womb or womb is like an animal that needed to be tamed. And if it was not tamed, then it could cause to nervousness to stomach pains to to lunacy, we could go crazy. And so the Greeks like defines what it was and then the Brits like did something about it. The Brits decided it was something that needed medical care, and eventually needed a vibrator. Do Yeah, that was actually the origins of the vibrator.

Effy

Love it. Love it, right. It was a pelvic massage, right? It was put on hold because, yeah, it's like the pellet massage. And then the doctors started getting grumpy hands. And then the industrious bridge. And then industry is virtualized and we're gonna make a machine for this

Jacqueline

that takes note 100% right that right women were like they were everything from like, depressed to like, which I'm sure they were just like, like fainting on here, like lounge chairs like

Speaker 2

Right, exactly. Oh, and then there was like, so many women going to the doctor, like, I have hysteria. And then they were all getting like, you know, pelvic massages from the doctors and the doctors were like, our hands can't take this and they created then the vibrator. But yes, clearly I would be one of those women I would be hysterical I think if I did not have it so so that's the first is it does feel super like physiological. I could just like hear a word, I probably could be reading an article and read the word sex and something in my body will turn on and be like, Well, do you want to? I mean, do you have a few minutes like that dialogue that happens immediately in my mind. It's like,

Jacqueline

you can squeeze it in the other I think is psychological. I think that it is something particularly that I realized that I started to feel whenever I was feeling Jarrett jealous or territorial, which is a complete mindfuck by the way to be like, picturing my partner with someone else with like my metaphor, and feeling simultaneous, like twisted up jealousy, territorialism, like just like all the angst, but then also kind of feeling

Effy

being turned on, again,

Jacqueline

kind of feeling again, like that voice in my head being like, Well, I mean, you have a few minutes.

Speaker 2

And it wasn't I think it really messed with me for a very long time. At first, my theory was that it was like self soothing, that the feeling of being jealous and thinking about my partner with somebody else was so overwhelming that my body was shaking here. Just Just do the

Unknown Speaker

history again down.

Jacqueline

It will be fine. Exactly. JERRY Yeah, right in my room was going crazy. And like it's something to like, tame it. So it was that but then I think we had a conversation. I think it was the episode that we did with Dr. Joe Lee. And she talked about I think I mentioned this, and I think she referenced it, it may have to do with mate value, which was something that we had a conversation with David Buss about Dr. Ross about none of that. And if you think your your mate is a five or six, or seven or eight or 910. And like the more value they have, the more like attracted you are the more you want them in their life. And that somehow picturing them with someone else like opt their mate value percentage, and that that was the thing that I was turned on. Like, oh, well, it's like having a toy that other kids now covet. And you're like, Well, wait a minute. Maybe I want that toy back. I think it was like that. It was like, Oh, you like my partner? Well, then, and then my womb went crazy. And it became hysterical, and I need to do something about it.

Effy

Nice. Those are all legit reasons. temesta be for sure. I love them.

Jacqueline

What about you? Well,

Effy

I mean, your reasons kind of resonate with me for sure. I started really early. I started now. I don't know. I remember as early as like five I got caught masturbating by my dad of all people. And six. Awkward awkward. Yeah, no, not fun.

Jacqueline

Did he just like back out slowly.

Effy

span on the point and he was like just like, just like spun around and walked away. That was his reaction to it. which I'm grateful for, because I didn't want to explain what I was doing. But yeah, I got,

Jacqueline

like exploded from a different reason from just like embarrassment you would have

Effy

popped. Yeah. And then I kind of kept up with it because it's like, you know, my my vulva and I are besties. And I've always just enjoyed that me time that US time that really enjoyed. But honestly, these days, like all of the things that you're saying resonate with me, but I think these days is like masturbation is political for me. Just because where we are in our history, I think I've arrived at a place where I think of masturbation as like anti capitalist, because it's like six cells, right? That's the thing. And sex is used to sell so many things, right. And the way that it works is that essentially, it says, sell any product by positioning the product as a gateway as an access to sex. Like, that's essentially why sex sounds. So like, if you have this, if you have these pair of jeans, you're gonna be more sexy, and then you're going to get more sex, or, you know, if you wear this perfume, all the men are going to be attracted to you, and you're going to get sex, right. So like, essentially, every product is positioned to as gateway to sex as a access to sex.

Jacqueline

And sex is not a means to the end sexism is instability, you're going to lower the man over with your good smelling nests, which will lead to sex, which will then lead to stability. Because your father your children, buy your house Exactly. And

Effy

provide for you. That's kind of the message for women. Right? And, and I think for men, it's like, then you're like that you're putting it out there. And then that's our broken system and in society. And also, I think sex is power, right? So that's the other thing, like it's not just like you get sex, but it's like sexist power. So it's like, next step from that. So all this stuff is going on. And I just feel like masturbation cuts through all of that, right, like masturbation is your free ticket to sex, and sexuality, and pleasure. So fuck capitalism, excuse my French. I just think it's a very anti capitalist thing to do. I don't know why I arrived at this point. But I feel really strongly about it. Like it's one of my things. I masturbate for many reasons. And then when I'm done, I give myself a pat on the back from being like, anti capitalist. It's gonna be aligned with my values. Okay.

Jacqueline

So great. Yes, that shirt should be like book capitalism by fucking yourself. Like, I think that's the best thing. Yeah.

Effy

Yeah, we're just like masturbation is anti capitalist is a good t shirt to have, I think I might, I might make one and just walk around it. And I do raise questions which I like, and then it'd be good at good conversation that I would be interested in, interested in getting into. That's that. And on that note, I haven't really stopped that. On that note, I also think is, especially these days, it is an act of defiance. I really do. I think sexuality as we know it, like most of sexuality, especially female sexuality, is presented to us through the male gaze, right? So vast majority of what we consider as sexy is through the male gaze, even ourselves when we look at ourselves in the mirror. And what makes us decide if we're sexy or not, are the images that we've seen that we compare ourselves to, inevitably, it's like, you can't not do this. So a lot of what's written in our, in our psyche, about sex and sexuality and sexy is through the male gaze. And I think masturbation is cut, again, cuts through all of that and puts you in direct contact with your body. And you can decide what sexy is you can decide. I feel sexy through this, like, the sexuality in me looks like this feels like this, and isn't potentially influenced by all the other things that that we get influenced by when it comes to sexuality. So I also think that masturbation is an act of defiance. It's one of the ultimate acts of defiance, I would go as far as that. So again, aligns with my values.

Speaker 2

Mm, see, that feels very for me, it's like I need to do it all die, and I need to do it to like, deal with jealousy. And then you just take it to the next step. And you're like, it's anti capitalist and defiant. I love that. I love that. I wonder now, for the rest of the world is not either going to burst into flames needs to deal with jealousy or wants to fuck the patriarchy. Why is masturbation good for us?

Effy

Yes. Well, we know masturbation is actually super healthy, right? We these are the things that don't tell us right? This is what it's also a goes along with my act of defiance thing. Do you remember those things that you get told, like you get hairy palms or you'll go blind if you masturbate too much? So like, that's what we get told. Nobody tells you actually masturbation is really really healthy. Right? They don't tell you that when you masturbate. You release a bunch of feel good hormones, right? We're looking we're looking at dopamine and endorphins, testosterone, prolactin, like beautiful hormones that just make you feel calm and motivated and stress relief and like increase sustains yourself. describe exactly that's why you do it right. Relaxing, like includes your immune system like I this is like it's like anti COVID. Masturbation is essentially anti human.

Jacqueline

That was not something that I was prescribed that it's fair. Yes, that's true. Yeah, I agree with you. I think it is all of the good nice feelings for me is that and helps me sleep.

Effy

Yes. Great option for insomnia.

Speaker 2

Yes, yes. Yes. Can I want to ask you Have you ever had this experience is like a side note, like, Okay, I'm tired end of the day, like, oh, I need to sleep can't sleep. I'm like, Alright, let's do this thing. Like hopefully this will this will help kind of getting into it. And then like, lose it. Like either lose it click too tired or lose it because like something else, like I get distracted, I start thinking about something else. And I'm like, god dammit. And then I have to like get back to it again. And at some point, I'm just like enough now like I've tried a few times, this is not working out, which is very unlike me. And I just move on. That is the worst like right before bed to try to like use that as a tool to help you sleep and it just makes you further exasperated. Not a fan of that.

Effy

I hear you. I hear that happens to me if I'm what I call tired and wired. That's when I'm like physically tired but mentally wired. And when I'm in that state, definitely tired and wired and then trying to like masturbate in that state. You know, it's also like, masturbate, meditate. I think masturbation can be meditation. And I think just like in that state, I would find it really hard to meditate. It's the same idea like staying on track, you know, same like, if I'm tired and wired. Definitely masturbation is hard. But if I if you can make it work, it will put you to sleep. Beautiful, soft, gentle, snoozy. Gorgeous. Man.

Jacqueline

Loves You. Totally Roxy to sleep gently singing

Effy

is beautiful. It's beautiful. There's like medical benefits. Like we know, we know that it decreases chances of prostate cancer in men, scientifically proven, right. So totally. And also, it is good for combating premature ejaculation. So if you're somebody who has problems with that, you know, masturbate, edge, hang out there. Keep increasing that time. And it's a good it's a great describe scientifically proven solution or suggestion or potential cure for combating premature ejaculation. That's true. Yeah. And I'm gonna, I'm going to do a Patrick with that. The third one for menopausal woman, as your sex drive is going down to keep masturbating, you will sustain your sexual sex drive. Because if you don't use it, you lose it. So I think what happens a lot is met women stop having sex for various reasons as they hit menopause. And as they lose their sex drive, they actually stop having sex. And they also stop masturbating. If you can actually carry on masturbating almost like an act of self care, which is we're going to talk about in a minute, something that you do as a ritual, something that you do, as you know, as you would go into the gym, as he would go and eat well, you masturbate on regular basis, throughout menopause, you will sustain your sex drive scientifically proven. So that's like three medical benefits.

Speaker 2

As you're saying that made me think of I remember my partner was telling me that she would masturbate before hanging like going out on a date or particularly going to see somebody that she was like, trying not to hook up with either because it was too soon in their relationship or because like, you know, it was towards the end, like in this one particular case, like it was the towards the end and she was like trying to end it but the person kept like luring or in, were like, Why don't you come over, let's give you something to drink. And then like, they'd be having sex. So she would like make sure as much as possible all the way up until when she was gonna leave to like, drain his flesh or body. So that this way she was fully present and you know, emotionally intelligent, when they were together. See, it helps your body it helps your mind I think, you know, I have been thinking about the fact that it for me the other pieces like it helps with it helps me stay connected to my body. I think that I have been somebody who lives in my head all of the time. And really, it is one of the only places you know, apart from being an in partnered sex and even then, where I'm just like, in my actual body, and that has been something that has felt really like self discovery and kind of just like connection and that has felt really healing for me in lots of ways.

Effy

I think that also extends into like, I do think that masturbation is also is a path of sexual liberation. The more that you know about yourself, the more you can spend time with your fantasies, your desires and you allow pleasure along with them connected with your body, it will liberate you sexually it will get rid of some of the shame that comes with our desires or fantasies. And over time, it will also give you clarity in a way that you can talk to your partners about it. You know, if you're struggling to, you know, when somebody says what do you like, and you're one of those pupils, and I don't know, there's so many of those people on this the masturbation like taking your time masturbating, and really reflecting on on the experience and growing from that and learning from it will it will lead to sexual liberation? I 100% believe that.

Jacqueline

Yeah, I knew we were gonna talk about this today. And I was both like, I think I said in the beginning, it was like a love hate situation. Like, I love this topic, because I just don't think we talked about it enough. And it is played such a big role in my life. But I hate it both because of the word masturbation, but also because there has been so much shame wrapped around it for me. And as I was thinking about, you know, as you're saying this, they're just, there's so many reasons why we should be doing it. And I'm thinking, well, when if there are all those reasons why we should be doing it, then why aren't we doing it? And why I think you are like, You are the master of you know, the etymology of the word and the physiology, what's happening in your body and all those things. What I'm good at the place where I shine is shame and trauma. And that's, there are tons of stories out there. But like you, you know, didn't you you mentioned, or do it early, I remember saying super early, super young, before I knew what it was or that it was bad. It was akin to me is like, you know, you have an itch and you scratch it, like there was just something like there's this feeling and you attend to the feeling. And I remember I was in elementary school. And I remember telling my mom about it, I remember very specifically like going up to her and saying, like, there's this, you know, sometimes they get this tingling. And then the tingling makes me want to, you know, touch the spot waves tingling. And I remember she was reading the newspaper. And I remember she put the newspaper down, turn to me and looked at me and said, That's disgusting. And like my little girl, like all those little bits of me that were like vulnerable and looking for connection and looking for guidance, looking for understanding just like she like shattered. That's so sad. And I remember at the time, too, I was dealing with I was like the beginning buds of some like anxiety and depression that was happening for me. And I remember saying to her, there are other things that I think about that now you will never know. Like I you know, those like kind of dark thoughts and some of that other stuff that had begin to creep up at a young age. I remember saying like, Oh, if you can't be trusted with this, and didn't say this, but like, essentially, if you can't be trusted with that, but I've said to her like there are other things that I think about that now you'll never know. And so that was like the very early age, I remember being young like you and kind of being caught, if you will, to the point that my mom used to do bed checks, and would like come into the room to see if my hands were above the sheets, like to like check on me. And so super early, it was like, I don't even know what this is. I don't know what the word is. I don't know what it means. But I know that it's bad. And then of course, religion comes in. And then of course now not only is it bad, but it is going to Damn my soul for all of eternity. And that was incredible struggle throughout my adolescence, because I was going through puberty and all of the feelings and all of the things and I'm not supposed to mess around with anybody. I'm not supposed to have sex with anybody, because that's also bad. But I can't do anything with those feelings either with myself because that is also bad. And you know, I've told the story before but there was at some point where it was such a challenge for me to stop when my teenage years that I remember making a promise with God and saying, you know, every time I do it, however many children I'm supposed to have take away one of those children supposed to have three if I masturbated and only give me two if I'm supposed to have three, you know? And because I thought that was the only ultimatum like that was the thing that would stop me. And then of course when I did it again, I was I was distraught. Because I thought to myself, I've just killed my future child, like my inability to have any self control has killed my future child.

Effy

That was really dark and sad.

Jacqueline

Yeah, yeah, that's, you know, that's a real reason not to do it.

Effy

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think just religion just screws up. I mean, I don't know. I mean, it's I think we die. We go down that that rabbit hole, I think it'll be a, you know, a long and darken deviation from what we're talking about. But the fact that religion is supposed to be about faith and goodness, having these kinds of results really saddens me.

Jacqueline

Yeah. Well, and it isn't about it's that it was right. It wasn't about faith. It's not about you know, the higher power. It's not about my body it was about religion. And if this resonates with you, you should listen to the Easter Special that we the conversation that we have with Dr. Dre Blaylock Johnson where we talk about sex in the Bible, because that those types of understandings have been incredibly helpful and healing for me. So first, it was you know, shame from my mom in particular and you know, my family and culture and shame from from the church. And then as I got older, it became more around shame, like with gender role, because we talk a lot about, at least in the states can constantly about like boys, you know, mass ranking like they're jokes about, it's in the movies, right? They're winking all over the place. There's like jokes about like socks that are stiff, you know, in the room, and they're jokes about their like their whole movies like American Pie. There's just so much that surrounds male masturbation, but there is no conversation, illustration visualization, anything about women. And I just felt like it was something that I shouldn't be doing. Even as grown. Like as a married woman, I would have sex and then afterwards because I do have such a high libido and so much sexual energy, like I could have kept going, but like, we were done with partner checks. And so I was like, okay, and I was like, wait for him to go to the bathroom to like, clean up and I'm like, quickly, like, to it just to like, get the rest of the energy out of my body, but it would be like quiet. I became very good at like stealth, masturbation. I could lay right next to you and you would never know. I'm like silent. Still. I'm like Ninja. I'm a ninja and

Effy

Ninja Master. That. Yeah,

Jacqueline

I am. I'm like a ninja. That's like a superpower. But it came out of necessity it became because I was too embarrassed to let anybody know even the person I was married with that I just was having sex with I was too embarrassed to let them know that my sexual energy was so much that that wasn't enough that I felt like insatiable, it felt too much. And it felt like I would hurt their feelings. And so I just was like, stealth about it.

Effy

It's funny. The first time I saw female masturbation on screen was the movie Secretary with James Spader and Maggie Gyllenhaal in the early 2000s. It's such an amazing movie for me. I can do a whole episode on that movie and wonder right now, but it was the first time I saw a woman masturbating on screen real masturbation, not like porn, but like actual kind of getting into it. And I remember thinking, I remember seeing that scene and going, Wow, you don't see that very often. Since then. There's been a few like, you know, controversial scenes. But like you said, how many movies are based their entire storyline? On normal boys masks? You know, never mind just one scene but entire storylines. So yeah, I think there's so much gender shaming around masturbation and how it's like, it's okay for boys to do it. But you don't ever see it. You don't even get the message. It's not okay for women to masturbate. It's just erased. The idea of masturbation women don't even live together because just erasure.

Jacqueline

Exactly. It's even worse, right? It's worse than saying this is not a good thing for it to be non existent at all right? This lets you you know, in advance, oh, I can't even this isn't even something that they're trying to stop me from doing. I shouldn't have even been doing it at first, but like, they're not even trying to stop me because I shouldn't even be doing it. Right. One of the first times that I remember seeing it on screen was in Black Swan.

Effy

Oh, yeah, definitely. That was the next one that came along, which is a great scene

Jacqueline

the whole the whole moment. But what's interesting to me is that was a part of her, like, decline towards being bad, if you will, which ultimately leads and like her death. So I like mixed feelings about it, like appreciation that it's up on screen, you know, like, great all the things Mila Kunis and you know, yes, yes to all of it. 10 out of 10. But sure, it is part of her decline, psychological and moral decline and again, leads to her death. So sure,

Effy

yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. There aren't that many, there aren't that many healthy fun lights, the way that we think about boys masturbating depictions of women masturbating at all. And I think the other part of that with the erasure is that you feel alone, like because we're doing it we're all doing and the older women are double the girls are doing all the women are doing it, but because we don't see it anywhere, and nobody talks about it. It's only a very lonely experience for a lot of people. Yes, they don't. Yes. You know, we talk about visibility all the time, we talk about all sorts of visibility. And I think female masturbation visibility is also super important.

Jacqueline

Yeah. And, you know, certainly because of the stuff that we do, I listen to lots of podcasts and reads a lot of read a lot of books on it. And there's not a lot of conversation like even within adults within the sex positive community. There's not a lot of conversations around masturbation.

Effy

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. I went to William Alanson. White Institute conference for therapists for sex therapists who are interested in sex therapy, the whole theme of it was sex. And I was really the only non therapist in the room. A therapist friend of mine invited me and I was like, Sure, I'll go and see what they're talking about. So it was like a conference hall full of therapists, sex therapists and therapists they're interested in sex and being sex, third person supporting their clients about sex. And all the topics were being talked about. And at no point people mentioned masturbation where it was obvious path where the conversation is going, is exactly what they were talking about, you know, shame. For example, people not knowing not knowing their own pleasure and having issues with their bodies and like, the answer is masturbation. They, the answer is masturbation and nobody would would talk about it. So at some point, of course, I put my hand and I was just like, is there a reason why we're not talking about my estimation. And nobody everyone kind of like when really awkward and some people kind of started looking at the floor. And then a few of course, like, spoke up with me. They're like, Yeah, let's talk about masturbation. I'm like, Yes. And these people are therapists like they are. They are in charge of our mental health. They're in charge of supporting us through some of these darker issues that we have about our sex and sexuality. And even they weren't prepared to talk about masturbation. So it's just like crazy is a taboo subject almost as taboo is like kink and fetish. And it is the most natural out of like, all of those things. That's where we all start. We all start with masturbation. Yeah, that is the one topic we don't feel comfortable talking about.

Jacqueline

Yeah, I agree with you. And honestly, on on all ends, right on the end of doing it and feeling good about it, or not doing it and not wanting to, you know, thinking about folks who are asexual, and that may have may or may not be something that they need or interested in. And also the myth that if you're asexual and don't want to engage in partnered sex, that doesn't also mean that you don't masturbate and want to touch yourself. Like, there's just no, there's no defining a person and what they need and what they want. And when we don't talk about it, we create these boxes of silence for folks that I think is what you and I are saying, like we need to be pushing back on.

Effy

Absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely. For sure. Okay. So these are, we talked about why we do it, we talked about why we don't do it, how can we actually do it? Let's talk about that. Let's talk about how do we break this? How do we get out of this, this situation? And how do we do it?

Jacqueline

All right, well, let me ask you, what are you talking about? Like, how do we feel self empowered and like create the environment for ourselves to do it? Or like literally, like, use your hand or pillow or like,

Effy

talk about that? We can definitely talk about that. There are so many different way I know that this is a thing. I know, this is a fascination for you, like all the different ways that people actually masturbate?

Jacqueline

Yes, because I think Well, I think because I was so consumed about my own, like push and pull with it my entire life that I really had not considered much other people doing it, let alone how they did it. And so then when I started to be around, you know, partners, both male male and female and non binary and and folks seeing who and seeing how they did it again, particularly, particularly for me, sis women, because I was looking at the way that they were moving their body and I was like, oh, that's what you're doing. Like when I was seeing, you know, someone with a with a penis. I was like, Okay, that's interesting. Like, it's all interesting to me, because I don't mean is what I'm seeing some of the vulva masturbate. I was like, Oh, interesting. So use a pillow, or a stuffed animal, or you lay on your back, you lay on your side, or you use you like, move your underwear and like push. It was just, I'm I am. I'm fascinated by all of the 1000s of ways that we figured out how to shoot this thing. And I did. Like, it helped me become more creative. Because I had like, my way of doing it. You know what I mean? A plus B equals C, like, I was like, pull this lever pushed his button done, then it'd be like we What are you doing over there? What's that? I don't like me try that. And I have now figured out some new avenues, some new pathways to see that I didn't even know were possible.

Effy

For sure. Yeah. Do you know I'm actually one of those people saying like, I'm a humper. Like, when I was younger, I was a pillow humper that's how I that was my favorite on my tummy humping a pillow. Like that was how I rolled? Yes. And then I'll tell you what changed. My style is mutual masturbation, because it's not fun to hump a pillow with a partner. So I actually started to like experiment. And I mean, I was masturbating all sorts of ways. But really, like really started to think about varying my style and realizing I have varied style and how it would work in different situations, was with with partners, and I'm a big fan of mutual masturbation, I think there's so much. First of all, I think it's incredibly intimate, I think is more intimate than regular sex, hands down. Without a doubt. mutual masturbation is one of the most intimate things you can do. I think. And you know, I will hear any other any other argument about it, but that's how I feel. And I think you're

Jacqueline

like, fight me fight.

Effy

Fight me. Honestly, I can't think of anything more. But personally, maybe maybe it's different. Maybe people who like love to masturbate here, and they're everywhere. They don't really care. It's just like a thing they can do. For me, I think mutual masturbation is one of the most intimate things you can do anything, there's so much like interest in value that and so much closeness. There's so much to learn from that. And like also super curious in the same way that you're talking about. I'm like, that's really nice to me. That's awesome. And so with that is how I was like, okay, so I actually need to kind of mess to me in ways that is like partner friendly. Yeah. And that's when I was like, Okay, I need to pay myself. And it's actually kind of important to vary your style for a couple of reasons. Well, you don't want to do is you don't want to condition your body. lead to one type of touch or one type of like, like you said, like, pull this lever, press this button. Because, you know, we know that neurons that fire together wire together, right. So if you keep doing the same thing, keep doing the same thing, keep doing the same thing, your partner is never going to be able to replicate that because no one's gonna be able to touch you the way that exactly the way that you want to be touched. So I think it's important to like various style, just like how to do well like how to do masturbation, well, like, make sure you have very style, you know, and I think that's also important for parents, when they're talking to their kids about masturbation to explain to them that they should really very docile especially boys, because I think one of the things that happen is what boys during puberty, they start to master B and the grip is actually really important, the grip too tight, where if they're always gripping the same way, no vagina is going to be as tight as your grip. And it's actually once you kind of wire that when you're wired. That way, it's going to cause problems down the line with real partners. So one of the one of the best advice you can give to your your boys is to get them to vary their masturbation style. Also, like with condom on with condom off of like grip, hard grip, left hand, right hand, up grip down grip, so

Jacqueline

with a condom and without a condom. Yes, so

Effy

important, very important. Because ideally, when you know, your boys are old enough to have sex with girls, you want them to use condoms. And what you don't want to do is oh, I don't feel pleasure without a condom. Of course you can, you just need to like masturbating with wine and figure out how it feels. And you will just wire your brain as much as you would do without one. So like, these are actually really good tips for parents who should be talking to their kids about masturbation. Yeah,

Jacqueline

that makes sense to me. I mean, and even again, you know, for folks with low body parts, like I've, I've had sex with partners who all forms of activities and positions would happen up until the point of nearing climax. And then there's a particular position that they have to get into, which, which often mirrors the position they take when masturbating to be like, Okay, we did all the things that was fun, we built me up to the moment like now we need to, like get into this position to like finish it off. And no shame around that if you listen happy to happy to help you in all the ways. But I do think also, for me, as a partner of somebody in you know, who I'm having sex with, in that way, it kind of limits my ability to be creative, and to explore them in different ways. Because there's a there's sometimes a little rigidity or ritual around the way it needs to be. So I would like some more exploration, but that has on it, frankly, that has also helped me realize that so much of how I was treating masturbation was very utilitarian, was buildup of energy release the energy or need to go to sleep or things like that. And then a lot had to do a lot of it had to do certainly with the shame that I was unpacking, but trying in my, you know, most recent years to do to have like longer, more purposeful sessions, you know, of like, romantic like being romantic with myself, you know, creating a space where there's no one gonna be around and there's a big comfortable bed and the lighting is whatever the things are, that make me feel like I don't need to be rushed. I don't need to be secretive about it, I don't need to like it's not a means to an end, it's an opportunity to just explore that has helped me then be open to different types of touch from a partner, because I have been willing to explore in that way on my own.

Effy

Yeah, I totally hear you recently, I've gotten into yoga and masturbation. That's my like, most recent thing. Yeah. And since the beginning of the year, of our listeners who are listening, I was traveling, wandering around Asia, spend time in India spend time in Bali. And I kind of got into yoga is something that I've been doing for a long time. But I got into more of the spiritual side of it, and different practices of yoga and all that kind of stuff. And I started to dabble in tantra in a more kind of deep kind of way, rather than sort of surface Tantra, which we covered on the show as well. And some of the things that were coming up for me that were interesting for me is sort of this ritualistic way of approaching masturbation and starting with like breath, and starting with using the breath to get embodied and using yoga to get really get anchored into my body. Nothing major, like I'm not doing headstands that's not the type of yoga I'm talking about. I'm sort of talking about very breath based, easy movement, Yin style yoga, where you kind of resting in positions but with the breath you really getting into your body and not just like getting into your your vulva and vagina like really like looking and experiencing every inch of your body and experiencing the expansion of the breath and then from that going into that sexual energy and masturbating from that has just been a kind of an interesting exercise that I've been exploring that I recommend if anybody wants to go there, you're looking at like a good hour by the way, this is not a quick in and out. You know, I want to I want to have a quick Wang before I go to sleep type thing, but it is really kind of taking my time. You know, doing a couple of you know, consultations, sitting breathing, moving a lot of cat Cows I found like a really slow, deliberate cat cows to really kind of bring me into my body and connect me to sort of the chakras and eventually to to my vulva and finding starting from that before even touch myself and then kind of finding my way there. And even then you're taking my time touching myself. There's been a kind of interesting journey that I invite people to have a go at.

Jacqueline

That's interesting. I wonder. Yeah, see, I'm thinking about that for me as a relates to practicing edging more I think that because, you know, orgasms again, in some ways just felt like a means to an end. Because it was like physical discomfort if like, I didn't, if I didn't get release that energy, but also this It's shameful. So like, hurry up, like, get that joint. Quick. You got to be in and out of here. There's a sense of urgency like, like, even in the midst of partner sex and solo sex. Like I have to like, tell myself look, wait, relax, Colin, no one's going anywhere. It's okay. Because it just feels like like a race to me. I'm like, hurry, like, let's get there quick. And like, watch. Like, this is great. Why am I rushing this? Yeah, so maybe that's, that's something I need to think about too, in terms of my practice with myself is just like, getting myself to a certain place, and then back down again, like kind of enjoying all the plateaus and the levels and the layers of it without kind of moving towards a particular end?

Effy

Yeah, I have. I recently have a new play partner. And that's something that's come up between us. It's there's this kind of, it's also there's a lot of new relationship energy. So we're kind of in it a lot. And it feels exactly what you're describing this like race to the end. And we recently have this conversation around, like, Can we sit with the tension, like what happens if we sit with a tension, like we are practically cohabiting just because we were traveling together, and then we came back. And so we're spending a lot of time together. It's not like, we're on the clock. And like, you know, we have to go separate, go our separate ways. Like we're both essentially digital nomads, we both work and we're together, you know, a lot of the time, and we kiss and cuddle and go back to work or go on excursions. And, and, and sometimes things escalate. And it feels like we need to come to me to get to the end, whatever that end is. And recently, we had this conversation around like we have all the time in the world, we answer to no one, we've designed our lives to be as free as we can possibly be. And, you know, can that be reflected in the way that we're having sex? Can that can we just sit with the tension, let the tension be there and keep building on it and building on it building on it without having to feel like we have to resolve it all the time. And it's just I think it's the same like, I think you can definitely start doing that within your masturbation practices, and then seeing how that translates into your, your sexual practice, you know, with the partner practice.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that makes sense. Because to me, the most delicious part of partner Tex is the is the weight the building. And my favorite thing in the world is like, being denied essentially, like getting like, like me being like, we have to or else I'll die and they're like, Really, though, let's let's see about that. Like that, like tension of like, I can't get the thing that I want. You know what I mean? Like hold being held in that space is just so intense. So I love that and partner sex, but I haven't necessarily done that with myself. Like, I haven't tested myself to be like, alright, let's, let's you like this right here. Let we're gonna bring it down a few notches, and then see, I gotta try it.

Effy

I honestly try with breathing. Like, that's been a big like one of the big things that I picked up over this, like months and months of gallivanting around Asia, Southeast Asia was a lot of did a lot to do with breath, which, you know, sounds so simple yet, you know, so deep and complicated at the same time. And before you even sit down to masturbate, or, or whatever, however, you want to masturbate, just like spend some time breathing and seeing what that does to you. And, like, explore with your hands without even getting into, you know, anywhere, you know, any sort of genital area, but like as you breathe, like touch your body in a way to just really like get into your body with the breath, and then go into your masturbation practice and see if it feels different.

Jacqueline

Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you. I think, you know, for us, it was important for us to spend this month a better part of an hour having this conversation because we don't see this conversate we don't hear or see this, you know, conversation happening in many places. And because I think we've we talk about you and I talk about it a lot. And we talk about it all the time. I'm like how are you? How have you been masturbating? No. It's important to us like as people and so wanting to wanting to normalize having the conversation about it, but also to the point of saying it is important enough for us to take seriously and to take some time with it. To you know, not just like write again not before bed and like in the quickness of the night but like maybe during the day. Maybe in the sunlight. Maybe you create like a cozy, you know, sexy corner space for you to do that where like comfy pillows, maybe you do it before sex, maybe do it After that, like there's just so many ways in which when you're sad when you're happy when you're jealous, I gotta tell you, it's helped me a lot. The jealous moments. Yes, create some space for it. I think I think to me that's like the moral of the story is if you find yourself not being able to take that space to do the work and figure out what's what's going on there, because that's certainly been the case for me. And then push back on that stigma pushed back on the man on capitalism.

Effy

Masturbation is one of the go my friends and masturbation is but as you go,

Jacqueline

that's the shirt. Oh, we've also made the shirt we need to open a store now of all the shirts, and we're just gonna have a masturbation line that

Effy

justifies division nine. Yes. We'd like for you like a little like a cartoon. Cat whistling castle. I think that just like just that, just that and then let people figure it out. And the episode number. Yeah,

Jacqueline

is yours like a fist in the air? Because then that but that mean can be many? I don't know. That's the image. What's the image for you?

Effy

I think mine just gonna say masturbation is political. And just let people ask questions. I mean, that's it. And then just a side note, it'd be fun to have these like, it'd be fun to have slogan T shirts per episode. And you have like a slogan, and then you just have an episode number.

Jacqueline

Yes, yes. If there are shirt makers out there, call us. Let's work this out. So that's it happy, happy masturbation. Master means you celebrate. We hope that you give yourself the gift of masturbation your partner and partners, the gift of masturbation. We hope that you talk about it in your families in ways that are appropriate so that you are normalizing it and not creating shame. Let's just you know may masturbation celebration.

Effy

Yes, absolutely. I've certainly confetti and champagne and Betty

Jacqueline

and and vibrators and shower nozzles

Effy

and comfy pillows for everyone.

Jacqueline

Exactly. Happy masturbation. Wendell. If you would like to share your masturbation stories or reactions to this conversation, then you can start a conversation on our Facebook group at we are curious foxes. You can also visit our website at we are curious foxes.com for blog posts on masturbation and episodes, blog posts resources, all unrelated topics under the umbrella of love, sex and relationships. You can also find bonus cuts, mini episodes, online workshops and whole lot more available to you on our Patreon at we are curious foxes. We would love for you to share this episode with someone who you think needs it if this conversation meant something to you. You can also leave us a review you can like and follow us on Apple, Spotify, audible Stitcher, wherever you're listening. If you haven't already, please do that. Please let the podcast algorithm gods know that you're listening. Let your friends know that you're listening. let your partner know that you're listening by sharing this by rating by leaving a comment. And then let us know. Send us an email or voice memo at listening at we're curious foxes.com We would love to hear your stories. We'd love to hear your questions and we'd love to hear your ideas for future episodes.

Effy

This episode is produced by Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla with help from Yağmur Erkişi. Our editor is Nina Pollock, who tolerates our mental masturbation every week. Our intro music is composed by Dev Saha, we are so grateful for that work, and we're grateful to you for listening. As always stay curious friends. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious, curious, curious, curious, curious Stay curious.

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