Ep 159: Polyamorous While Asian with Michelle Hy
artwork by the talented @silverillustrations
What is intersectional polyamory and how to find meaningful representation in the community? What is the impact of prescribed cultural identity on our relationships? How can we find and connect with online communities for support?
In honor of Asian Pacific American Heritage Month, Effy and Jacqueline are joined by Michelle Hy of Polyamorous While Asian to discuss how different parts of our identity impact the way we practice non-monogamy, how representation matters within polyamory, and the importance and the risks of online communities.
More about Michelle
Instagram @polyamorouswhileasian
Website: polyamorouswhileasian.com
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Curious Fox @wearecuriousfoxes
Effy Blue @coacheffyblue
Jacqueline Misla @jacquelinemisla
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TRANSCRIPT:
Effy
Welcome to the Curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.
Jacqueline
And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today, in honor of Asian Pacific American Heritage Month, we're revisiting an episode that we recorded with Michelle Hi, Michelle runs the popular Instagram page polyamorous while Asian, where she uses her platform of over 27,000 followers to normalize non monogamy and amplify and promote the voices of other people of color, who are significantly underrepresented in non monogamous communities.
Effy
Before we start as a quick note, while speaking with Michelle, we referenced polyamory as that is the language that she uses within her work. However, we understand that this conversation has broader applicability beyond the specific practice of polyamory and expands the non monogamy as a whole. As someone who works with a diverse set of clients from all over the world, different identities and backgrounds. I found this conversation to be super interesting. We hope you enjoy the interview.
Jacqueline
One of the things that you talk a lot about that is one of the reasons why we wanted to talk to you is you talk about intersexual polyamory and first I'm wondering, Can you can you name what that means for you what that phrase means?
Michelle Hy
Yeah, yeah, a lot of time in polyamorous spaces. It's like, oh, you know, how do you handle jealousy? How do you open up the relationship and all of these interesting concepts about relationships and dynamics and whatnot, but a lot of times polyamory is seen as like white people shit, right? And there's there's a lot that goes in with it that a lot of times engaging in polyamorous community or relationships can come with a sort of like, a bid privilege. And, you know, not everyone can access it and whatnot. And like, there's there's a reason why it's, it's seen as like white people shit, like, it's not really like an accident. And so I think like intersectional polyamory, it's like, okay, you know, how do we combat like ableism and racism and classism and all the isms and stuff to make polyamory really more inclusive and accessible and just much more diverse? Yeah.
Effy
It's funny, I know that Jacqueline has her own take on this. And you know, because she's a Latina woman, this intersectional piece that sort of how, as a white person shit idea came up for me is, I once told somebody who just randomly we were talking and I told them that I was polyamorous, and he said, Oh, you must be rich. And I was like, Huh, that's really weird. What any, and then we chatted for a while. And he's like, Yeah, I don't have that kind of, I don't kind of have that kind of money. Like polyamorous polyamory is for rich people who can afford to go on like, all the dates and have multiple households. And I was like, wow, like, I totally get that I get that point of view. I had never thought about it before. And it was, you know, for me, it wasn't, that wasn't my experience. But I'm like, Oh, I can totally see how that looks from the outside.
Michelle Hy
Yeah, that's often what gets what gets the most representation. Of course, it's like the people who do have multiple partners and then can do all of these things together. And, and that's what's shown more, that's what's like most appealing on things like Instagram and whatnot. But yeah, there's there's a lot of people who are just doing very much more on the down low and low key and like, Yeah, we don't have to go on lavish vacations together, have multiple homes together, whatever. But like, yeah, there's much more loci and stuff, but right it is, it is more expensive to, I think have multiple partners sometimes or it's like, if you go on dates or something, and I then know buying drinks at bars or whatever or, or the time, the time cost and like having the time to have multiple partners and stuff. So right now, definitely not just a wealthy person thing. But yeah, I also can see where people can get that idea.
Jacqueline
Even I think the naming of it because I'm thinking about you know, in my family like my my grandparents and my great grandparents had my great grandparents had many kids with many different people, right? So there is there is polyamorous practices and communities of color. We just did not call it that. And so I think part of it is also like the naming of this is polyamory. This is a thing that we're doing. She felt in the beginning for me a little bit like white people shit, because I was like, Oh, that thing? No, we've totally my uncle did that thing like that is the thing we didn't call we didn't have a name for it, but that's the thing we were doing, right? But I'm interested because I think that I've seen more queer and POS See representation in poly communities and events and conversations over the last few years. I think that 10 years ago, when I started researching and exploring polyamory for myself, it was very whitewashed. And so I'm interested, Michelle, in your observations around that evolution. And have you seen that as well? Why do you think that is? Like? I'm just curious about that.
Michelle Hy
Yeah, when I got started almost 10 years ago, which is wild, like it is, it was very, like white Senate, like the white voices centered. And I think a lot of that is like, oh, who gets access to, you know, be able to write books on this subject, or teach on this subject and get published on this subject. And it was it was more fringe, it was definitely more fringe. And so it's like, yeah, who gets who gets the time and energy to be able to explore this, you know, whereas some people are like, you have, like, people are working 40 plus hours a week, and they have families to take care of and stuff. And it's like, we can't be bothered with this frivolous shit that like, as, you know, no proof of life in the mainstream. And so, I think, yeah, in more recent years, it has become a little bit more mainstream, and people are talking about it a bit more like on dating profiles, I will see people explicitly say that they are monogamous, because there are more people who identify openly as non monogamous. That's been interesting to see. And so because it's become more mainstream, other communities, especially marginalized communities, I think are finding ways to make it more accessible for themselves, and are finding ways to kind of adapt it into their own cultures and subcultures and whatnot. And yeah, since more and more people are seeing it as a more viable thing, it is becoming more accessible to communities that otherwise, you know, wouldn't have been a part of it.
Effy
That makes a lot of sense, right? I think it's probably also, I don't know, what do you think about this, but also kind of woven into the overall identity politics, which is sort of Hot Topic from like, non binary folks coming out and it's being a very much a legitimate identity and in from there, sort of just dispersing into the community, I think relationship structure is also now spoken about, like a like an orientation more. So do you notice that?
Michelle Hy
Yeah, yeah. And I have heard this for a long time, like people who see it more as like an orientation or identity versus like a choice. And I have no strong like opinions on that. Like, some people are like, Yeah, this is who I am like, I am like, polyamorous, I was born polyamorous and stuff and other people are like, yeah, I could take it or leave it. You know, I could be monogamous or non monogamous. For me, I think I probably it is more of like a relationship orientation, where it's like, I don't think I could be like, reaching my like peak fulfillment as just like a monogamous person. But I don't like try to push on other people that like, yes, it is like an identity, and you have to treat it as an identity, or anything like that. Yeah,
Jacqueline
yeah. Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I think that what I'm seeing too, it's almost like queer, where it can be both identity and a political statement. And so I'm wondering your thoughts around that around how can or is polyamory political?
Michelle Hy
Yeah. And I write I think the queerness thing is really a great segue, because right it is. It is very political. And it is very, like, intentionally a good like blanket term, like queer could mean so many different things. I've heard Yeah, polyamory described as a sort of, like queering of relationships. And I don't think that's that's all. That's the case all the time in polyamorous relationships. But in certain cases, yeah, I think that is accurate. Yeah, I firmly believe that, like all relationships are political, even the ones that don't feel political. And like, I mean, that that itself, because it feels maybe part of the status quo, or part of the norm, like that is definitely plays into the politics of evolve, like relationships. And so with polyamory, and non monogamy, queerness, and whatnot, it is existing outside of most mainstream, acceptable norms. Like, I think like queerness, in general, because of a lot of work of activists and whatnot, like it has become much, much, much more acceptable. But still, there's a lot of stigma, there's still a lot of hate, there's still a lot of threats of violence and stuff that folks in the queer community face. And that's, that's a very political thing. Like if you're in a queer relationship, even if you're in like a straight passing queer relationship, there's still a part of your identity that you feel like you have to hide in certain contexts for your own safety. And like, what's not political about that? So I think similarly in polyamory, yeah, there's, there's so there's so much in how we relate because like politics is how we choose to distribute power, and how we choose to relate to people. And so it is very much entwined.
Jacqueline
Yeah. Also, polyamory is not a protected class. So I mean, we have the opportunity, you know, African I name our privilege in this we work for ourselves. And so we have the ability to say that, but we understand that if we were working at a company at an organization that that could be grounds for termination based on Whatever the the corporate values of that organization were. And so in that way again, it is very political in this way that you live love interact with other people could mean whether you whether you have a job or not, could mean whether or not you're stigmatized publicly. So, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think again, that goes back to why people maybe felt like it was white people shit, because it was more of protection. They're like, you're already like, Oh, God, damn, I'm queer. And I'm a person of color. And I'm, you know, middle class or lower middle class, like on top of that, I cannot lose my job because I want to be multiple, right?
Michelle Hy
Why make myself more of a target? stressful enough? Yeah,
Effy
exactly. That actually nicely leads into one of the other topics that we talked about, which is representation, right as as we have more voices, more faces talking about polyamory, you being one of them, we know that representation is important. My as a we're curious to what are the lines between representation tokenization and fertilization? When we are talking about polyamory? We had a very similar conversation about porn, actually, when we did consider this our annual conference. And we were kind of talking about representation and porn, and then like, how do you then how do you draw a distinction between representation and fetishization within porn? And I think similar conversation is valid here in polyamory where we realize that representation is so important. But then how do you how do you make sure that you don't walk down towards tokenization? tokenization? These are hard words to say. Right. So can they ation?
Michelle Hy
Yeah, I think the big distinctions lie in who has the power? And who has autonomy? Because right in in tokenization, and fetishization
Effy
is a hard.
Michelle Hy
Yeah, like, even if that person is brought to the forefront, so to speak, like, do they have the voice? Or are they treated as an object where something else is highlighted? Or someone else is highlighted? With meaningful representation? Like, yeah, you can throw like Asian faces on the screen or whatever. But like, how important are their roles? How much screen time? Do they actually get? Like, how much depth do their characters actually get? versus, you know, either just side characters or drifting into stereotypes? Yeah, meaningful representation is really I think, like shifting power structures, where it's like, it's not just keeping the status quo and adding more colors to like the crayon box. It's, it's really rearranging, rearranging structures so that these voices are seen as the maybe most important, at least in this context, or in multiple contexts, where it's not just like, oh, you know, of course, we have the status quo. This is the most important voice, but then we allow these voices into our space. It's like, no, no, what spaces are mainly for certain voices. And then maybe what's usually seen as the status quo is seen as the guest. If it's a guest at all, you know, like, I think there's some spaces where it's like, yeah, we don't need you here or want you here, because you have the rest of the world to be your space. So yeah, I think a lot of it like meaningful representation versus objectification is all about power distribution. Sure.
Jacqueline
Yeah. I think in there, I'm wondering about intersectionality as it relates to representation, because I think that in our society, there are some folks who have more sexual capital than others. And so to be able to have hookup with a black man, or an Asian woman has different social capital than a black woman or an Asian man. And so there's something really also different there that it's not just about gender, it's not just about race or culture. It's not just about but understanding that even within those spaces, people still have access, different levels of access, or different levels of, again, either fetishization or just even being able to be engaged in conversation based on where their intersectionality is.
Michelle Hy
Yeah, yeah. And I think the important thing with intersectionality is pointing out all of these are very specific differences in background and upbringing and access, and really, really breaking that down. Because I think a lot of the time, even you know, when we're like well meaning, and we want to do the work and whatnot. Like we still have this tendency of oftentimes for convenience, and, you know, we don't know what else to do is to clump things together, where it's like Asians, right, what does that even mean? Like and what does that even mean? Like oftentimes, unfortunately, when we say Asian, we see someone who looks like me, like a light skinned East Asian, you know, from the big three, right where it's like Japan, Korea, or China. And and then yeah, there's a lot of like classism and colorism that goes into it where it's like there's like darker skinned Asians. There's like yeah, Southeast Asian South Asians. There's the West one astern Asians and it's that's all mushed under just Asian or in the United States Asian American. But still, that at the interest of like maybe condensing something or making it more convenient to talk about we really like flatten out the conversation so that there are some people who are much more represented. And then there are other people who are just not talked about at all. And I think that's super important with the conversation of intersectionality. And then talking about representation. And really, I think we should shift more toward focusing on specifics and not, I think lean on focusing on these wider categories so much.
Effy
Yes, I think like mean so much to me, because I think what we used to do these curious Fox socials where we had peer panels, where people told us stories, people would tell their stories of their relationships, non monogamous, various non monogamous relationships. And we would have, we had these like, beautiful close container events. With pick a topic, we'd have a panel of guests whose told their stories. And one thing that that I took away from that doing that for years, was to that everyone's story is so individual. And it's understanding it's like, yes, you're Asian. Yes, you're polyamorous, but you have a very specific experience. And I'm, I think, making room for those experiences these stories as a whole rather than just kind of just labeling them as as one thing, I think just is what really helps us understand different people, different relationships. And I think those stories are so precious. And I think that's also a thing that that I'm hearing you say is, in order for it to be meaningful representation, we need to tell the full story rather than have a diverse face, just doing the talking. Yeah,
Jacqueline
I'm also interested in what happens now as we have more rolled multiracial generations that are being born because I think to your point, Michelle, we'd like tend to put everything together and we're like, okay, Asian. So I'm thinking, for example, Kamala Harris, right. And certainly within the black community saying, like, look at what we were able to do, and but in that then undermining the fact that she's also Indian and saying, wait a minute, what about this whole piece where my daughter, for example, was learning about Basquiat in school, and particularly around his his black heritage, but he's half Puerto Rican, and she's watery? And I would say, actually, that's something else that we need to capture. And so I think that we have this mind of like, just claiming one parts of people. And I'm interested to see how that evolves as people become more and more intermeshed. And what will that mean, in the way in which we can either compartmentalize differently or start compartmentalizing at all? That is yeah,
Michelle Hy
that is very, very interesting. Like, yeah, the different, like different backgrounds and like cultural backgrounds that people have. And it is, it is interesting to see what is upheld, versus what is like brushed aside because I know in some communities claim, Kamala Harris is like, yeah, first Asian vice president, and it's like, Obama, half black, half white, you just often get cautious, and say that he's black. And it's like, what, like, why, why do we do that? And I have my two youngest sisters, my mom remarried my two younger sisters, half white, half Chinese. And so it's, it's, it's interesting, I think, like watching them grow up, and I think it'll be continued to be interesting to see how they move through, I think spaces in their lives being like, weishan. Right, and, you know, seeing like, very, you know, very pale skin and whatnot, but also not maybe fully seen as white. And so, so there's still this potential for like, othering and whatnot, because it's like, okay, yeah, you look mostly white, but there's still that element of exotic or foreign. Or, yeah, just just other. And so like, I think that's something that I'm not, like, super well versed on, I think a lot of the politics of, you know, being like biracial, or like multiracial, or have all these different cultural backgrounds. But I, it is a very interesting topic, for sure.
Jacqueline
Going back to meaningful representation, I'm interested in why specifically felt like it's important to call out being Asian, Fe and I talk back and forth a lot about Effie, for example, has traveled the world lived in many continents and countries and says one of the things that she should always ask is like, where are you from? And I said, here in the States, you gotta be real careful. I was like, you could probably get away with that, because you have an accent. And so that question is going to be heard differently. Because I often get asked, Where are you from? And I'll say, New York, and knowing actually, what the person is actually asking me, and I'll say New York, and you're like, No, no, I mean, like, really, though, where are you from? And I'm like, the Lower East Side of New York, and they're like,
Michelle Hy
where are you? Where's your family?
Jacqueline
Exactly. We're in the generations. And so I'm curious about that, because I just note that as a sensitivity of both wanting to own who I am, but also being sensitive to understanding what that means for other people. So can you talk a little About that, like why why polyamorous white Asian?
Michelle Hy
Well, I mean, the most obvious part is just like even even though just talking about like, oh the these encompassing terms and categories like I am Asian, and I'm polyamorous and so that just seemed like a good straightforward handle when before starting the page I was trying to look for polyamorous Asians because I'm like oh yeah there's like a lot of there's like a really a lot of really great like, black polyamorous representation and I feel like there's like a like a like it couldn't be bigger it could be more you know all as always, but like yeah really solid polyamorous representation within like black communities I'm like, Oh cool. I'm Asian and polyamorous there are obviously other Asian polyamorous people. And so I'm like trying to look try to look trying to look I'm like, where are they? And then I was like thinking about it for a while and I'm like, okay, yeah, I can I can understand, like, I think a lot of people, you know, with with family and whatnot, where it's like this, this pressure to conform to what your family wants you to be, and whatnot. And I think like, it's not specific just to like, like Asians, this pressure from family. But I think there is a specific flavor from, like, Asian upbringing and background of like, it's very traditional, and you think of the family and you know, you do certain things to be successful, especially in the United States, like we came here were, like, really clear, so you can be successful and we can be stable, and, you know, not not cause too much trouble. So I and then I felt like, I feel like I've been doing this non monogamy thing for for a good bit. And I feel like I have some nuggets of wisdom and like cautionary tales that I could share. And I feel like I can be out about that without, you know, the threat of being like fired from my job or ostracized from friends and whatnot, because people around me already know, sort of, like, I feel like I can be out publicly out and about this. So I started the Instagram and fully expecting it just to be like, Oh, just like a small space of just maybe vomiting my thoughts under this platform. And if nobody reads it, okay, at the very least, it's just a little journal. But yeah, I started because I'm like, I know there are polyamorous Asians out there, and I can be out about it. And if it even reaches like one other set of polyamorous Asians like eyes, who's maybe in the class or whatever, it's worth it. Yeah, love that love, love
Jacqueline
that you're like, I want to make sure when someone is googling other polyamorous or Asian source that they're looking for.
Effy
That feeds into the sort of the next question that we have, which is around the proscribed cultural identity. Right? So we all have sort of strong cultural identities that coming from heritage. I'm curious whether you would that shows up for you in the way that you practice polyamory? The Do you Do you feel the impact of your prescribed cultural identity on your relationship structure or the way that you have relationships?
Michelle Hy
Yeah, I mean, I think that's something that I'm still parsing through, like every day, like my parents are from China and Taiwan. And they, they moved here. So I was born here. So I am an ABC, I'm an American Born Chinese. I think my family, definitely, it became a mix culturally for sure of like, the, I don't know, quote, unquote, east meets west of certain values, where, like, my family wasn't so much of the like, Oh, you have to, you know, spend all your free time studying so that you can get into Harvard and things like that. But they were very much like, yeah, you have to get good grades in order to basically get like love and approval from us. And so there was this idea of, yeah, doing doing what I shouldn't be doing, and doing the right thing, and not causing trouble. And that definitely resulted in me like, I think subsuming parts of myself to be acceptable to my family. And I think that definitely translates into has translated into my relationships, where it's like, yeah, I have to have to do the right thing have to do what I'm supposed to do, and whatnot. But at the same time, like as a kid, my parents had divorced when I was pretty young. So I think my understandings and my formulations around relationships are definitely impacted by that. I think it is hard to parse through where it's like, yeah, what does that specifically from like, the Chinese background, or whatever, or how much of that is from like the Americanized version and whatnot, and I find it hard to kind of like separate sometimes and and I think for me, even I like yeah, as an adult kind of going through just like trying to figure out like, you know, how much in my life have I kind of discarded bits of, you know, Chinese identity to be at acceptable around peers and to kind of move through my world a bit more easily. And so yeah, it's very, it's very confusing. And it's I think it's like a never ending sort of thought process, sort of reflection type thing. Yeah.
Jacqueline
Do you feel responsibility for? Or do you or maybe not this comes naturally to you within your platform to try to either bust myths or to break down stereotypes or to say, I know that you think this about Asian women, but actually, I'm going to show you this other side, is that something that feels either that comes again, naturally, that you're intentionally doing or that you're saying, that is not my responsibility to break down that cultural expectation of hundreds and 1000s of years?
Michelle Hy
I think, for anyone who is in marginalized spaces, or comes from marginalized backgrounds, I think there's often this pressure to be an ambassador. Right? There's this pressure to be like, Okay, I am polyamorous and I am Asian. And so like, there are like, even though there are certain, like myths that I feel like, in stereotypes that I don't feel, apply to me, I still feel like I have to be a good model or version of that. Yes. And so I combat that sometimes, but but mostly my focus is like sharing my experience. And sometimes that experience conforms to this general understanding. And sometimes it doesn't. And so I don't think I specifically, like pinpoint, like, oh, yeah, this is a myth. And let me pick and choose from my life and show how it's not a myth. So I try to, within the limited format of Instagram, of course, it still as much nuance as I can into my own experience, where it's like, yeah, you know, growing up, as an Asian American woman, I was definitely influenced by a lot of narratives that, you know, Asian women are a bit more submissive, and, you know, obedience. And again, like coming back to, like, you know, doesn't cause trouble. And that sort of, like, I think, as a, you know, younger person, thinking of almost being honored by objectification to a degree because I didn't know that I could deserve more or get more. It's like, oh, wow, like, you're even paying attention to me, like objectifying me. If it doesn't feel 100% Great, but you're paying attention to me, that kind of thing. So there's, there's elements of that where it's like, yeah, totally, that was totally infused into my upbringing and my thinking as, as as a kid, and it's still lingers as an adult. And so yeah, I definitely want to touch on that. Yeah. But at the same time, where it's like, yeah, I'm bisexual and polyamorous, and like, a very sexual person as well, and not in not in this way that's like for this, like white male gaze or whatever. It's like, I'm a person who is trying to figure out my own thing, and doing my own thing as this autonomous human being with my own, you know, going back to like this specific story, like with my own specific story that hopefully resonates with some people here and there. Yeah.
Effy
It's so important that you're telling your story. It's essential, in fact that we understand that different people, different relationships, and there's room and space for all of that. We talk a lot about inspiration and permission on the show. It's one of our sort of missions, that we want to provide inspiration, we want to talk to people, we want to talk with people about things that otherwise might not be talked about, and give people inspiration of like the way that they can be in the world and also give them permission by bringing stories of people who are doing it. So I think what you're doing is right there, it's just, it's just full fill of inspiration and permission of just like living, you're living your story out loud. So thank you for doing that work.
Unknown Speaker
Thank you. Yeah.
Jacqueline
So what I appreciate about what you bring to the conversation, Michelle, is that even though we're talking about things in big terms about being Asian about being polyamorous about the way we showing up politically in these spaces, you also having the conversations in ways that feel really layered and nuanced and textured. And so even in what you just shared about the distinction between not wanting to be fetishized, and also, feeling appreciative for the attention makes me think of my own experience in my own life of, of, you know, thinking that I don't want to be used, but also what's worse than that is with no one wants to use me if no one wants to pay attention to me.
Michelle Hy
Yeah. Because that's often what's presented to us as like, the acceptable ways of like, Yeah, this is how you're consumed in our society. This is how you, you exist to be consumed. And so if you're not being consumed, what are you what good are you if you're not being productive if you're not being useful for someone else's pleasure or consumption of some sort? What good are you? Yeah, it's so insidious.
Jacqueline
Yeah. Yes, yes. Yes. And so I think that's why I want to name and like, you know, I appreciate being in a space where it is that complicated and we are still trying to figure it out. And we are pushing back on something. We're also also you know, needing and wanting it because that is the only option that's given to us and like just all of those pieces. I you know, I think my Final question for you around this work is, where do you see the importance of creating online community in order to be able to flesh out and have more of these conversations?
Michelle Hy
Yeah. I mean, the, the this continued, like Instagram account, like, I think it surprises me a lot, where it's like, oh, yeah, cuz because sometimes, you know, there's still a voice in my head that's like, oh, you know, it's just like, it's just your experience, you know, who cares? Or like, there's nothing particularly interesting or resonant about it. It's just whatever your life isn't particularly interesting. And then other times, I'm like, What are you talking about? My life's not interesting. It's like, you know, like, uh, even these days, like, once a month, like, I'll have, you know, dinner with, like, you know, two partners, and like a queer platonic friend and stuff. And it's like, super normal. And we're all very normal about it. And like, they're comfortable with metamorphose, and things like that. And it's not this weird thing. It's like, Yeah, that's interesting. That's, I think, also, like, whatever he was talking about earlier, where it's like, you know, even showing people examples of what is even possible, where it's like, sometimes we don't even, even if we had these inclinations or tendencies, like, it can't be expressed, if we can't even imagine that can even happen or exists. It's like, what I can have multiple, healthy sustainable partnerships at the same time. And like, like, that's a thing we can do that, like I can sit around the table, eat together, and then like, you know, play board games together and stuff. And it's not like super weird, and like aberrant and deviant and all these bad things. Yeah. So I continue to be surprised, I think because of those silly imposter syndrome voice. But yeah, I really enjoy the Instagram this, I guess, this kind of hobby. And, and with regard to like, online community, like that can be like a double edged sword, right? That can be like it has its good, it has its bad. I mean, you know, talking about these, these platforms that very often censor certain certain topics that they deem are basically not advertiser friendly. And so again, going back to this, like, oh, having to navigate around what is acceptable for consumption? And so how can we navigate within that while still creating community, and while still dispersing a really important and sometimes like radical information, or information that helps empower people towards like, liberation and things like that? Like, yeah, how do we navigate around this very, like consumption, profit driven culture on these platforms? Social media, especially like Instagram, very image focused? And I think is, is like all social media, where it's like, yeah, very curated, and can give people very false ideas and information about what other people's lives are, like, was like, Wow, all these beautiful people who, you know, photoshopped their bodies, and, and all of that. So there's, there's the bad. But yeah, it brings a lot of people together, it can bring a lot of people together, where it's like, oh, wow, you know, like, in my day to day life, I don't see any of this kind of representation. But there's someone all the way across the world who's doing this thing. And they're showing that it's viable, and like, wow, it's connecting me to all these other people who are doing this thing. And wow, I just didn't even know that was possible or accessible. So there's definitely bad with it. And in my perspective, like, there's still a lot of good that can come from social media. And sometimes it's not worth it for some people, which is very, very valid, and very understandable. Because it can suck trying to navigate through the terms of service and whatnot. Along with the bad. There's the good, yeah, we try to do we try to eke out what good we can write the social media behemoth? Yeah,
Effy
yes, yes. I think what the My biggest struggle with social media is that it is there isn't much room for nuance. And I think that's kind of what 80 of these things are. That's where you really get to understand some of these things. And I think, like Jackie said earlier, I think you do a really good job of, of weaving in some nuance. I think it's, it's fairly rare because more of a bank stories get more, more attention. At the same time. I think it's in the nuance where we really learn and grow and connect. And that's, that's always my, my biggest biggest gripe with it. It's just like, there's no nuance out there. But it is a channel where we can provide inspiration and permission like directly into people's bones, you know, directly in front of them. So, and hopefully move the lever a little bit. But yeah, so we do a podcast for the nuance.
Michelle Hy
Yeah. Okay.
Jacqueline
So I would love us to ask you just for questions just to get to know you a little bit more. These are some rapid fire questions, just to peel back additional layer beyond what we're seeing in Instagram to get to know Michelle and more. And so the first question I'm going to ask you is what What is one piece of advice that you would give to your younger self about love sex or relationships?
Michelle Hy
I would tell baby Michelle, that boundaries are not as important but they're essential and that it's okay. Like, it's not just okay to have boundaries, like it is necessary to have boundaries and you're not just like selfish bitch for having boundaries. Like, oh man, yeah, little little Michelle and still adult, Michelle still still struggles with establishing and expressing healthy boundaries for sure.
Jacqueline
Yeah, one great answer. I think so many times I look back at my younger self, and I'm just the moments of cringe are that where it was like, Why did you keep going there? Little Jackie, like, why did you let them why we're doing that? Yes. Yeah, I love that answer.
Effy
Okay, what is one a romantic or sexual adventure on your bucket list?
Michelle Hy
Oh, man, it's just so much I have
Effy
so much I can't think of one.
Michelle Hy
Right? I feel like I call myself like a measured hedonist. Because I like I'm not super super, like wild. But I do like experience and a lot of different things. This might tie in to a later answer. But exploring the depths of I think, my romantic potential, because I think I've suppressed that in myself a lot for like, you know, protection. But I think like how much I can really give unhealthy ways to other people. And also like getting back and I think I think just exploring that, like, that's not like a fun and sexy answer. But
Jacqueline
But yeah, really, getting and doing again,
Michelle Hy
like the depths of what love and connection can mean, in a romantic sensor or not. And I think I mean, I think it follows like, deeper romance and connection. Like, you know, what are what are the depths that can be explored with regard to like, sex and relationships? In in in concert with that? Yeah. All these all these possibilities?
Effy
Of Love, love?
Jacqueline
How do you how do you challenge the status quo?
Michelle Hy
Oh, man, I think like my one of my favorite quotes, like Albert Camus, is just like, you know, make your very existence like an act of rebellion. Where I because I think existing, and I think even thriving, or finding happiness or whatever, especially in this world that we currently live in, can be a radical act, that yeah, just being happy. Finding contentment, I think can be a radical actually, as I mean, you know, going through identities like as a bisexual, polyamorous Asian, or whatever, like, someone who has, I think found nuggets of of happiness and contentment. And I think it's, you know, until I continue to foster that, I think that's radical. And I think anyone who finds nuggets of happiness and contentment like that, it's it's very radical.
Effy
Absolutely, yeah. Okay, last, but definitely not the least. What are you curious about lately?
Michelle Hy
Yeah, I mean, I think yeah, going back to, you know, like the the depths of romance and stuff that answer, I'm very curious about, you know, because I'm still learning all the time, you know, curious about what polyamory can look like, in so many different contexts. And like, really expanding on what community means and interconnectedness so that we get away from this, like, rugged individualist type society? Like what can community look like, again? And I mean, I think we have a lot of examples from, like, history that we can look to. But yeah, that's that's what I'm very curious about, like, what is the future of, I think like, non monogamy and whatnot, but also like what's existing now? That is that is possible. I'm very curious about that. Yeah.
Effy
Love that. Sorry, I think
Jacqueline
so it was an interesting conversation, I appreciated the opportunity to explore again, explore intersectionality in that different way. And, and there were definitely a few things that Michelle said that resonated with me, I think first her example of being a good model like a good ambassador for for whatever like a good ambassador for my ethnicity a good ambassador as a female good ambassador, as a queer person, good ambassador as a non monogamous like whatever space I am in that I am the other in that situation that I am the minority. I am fully aware that I need to like show up as the best of that brand that brand because I like representing all of my people. And so like I need to unpack that some more because I know that that is not necessarily your true like that is something I'm putting on myself. But as soon as she said I was like yes, that is true. And it does not feel authentic and it doesn't feel nuanced. And so I think that is that is part of what I am sitting with and thinking about because I think that is also true in the space of non monogamy. I think that on the one hand there are times when I want to show up and talking about all of the positive things, because I know that there's so much negative feedback out there in the world about what that looks like. But then I also want to normalize and be like, Oh, no, we hear the negative things because this is also true. And I want to, but then you, like, go back and forth. Same thing with social media, like hear all the amazing, beautiful, lovely images, because I want to show what thriving looks like. But also I don't want to be fake. And so like, here are then the sad and scary and bad things. And so what a balance what a balance to be human.
Effy
What a chore to be human to wake up every morning. Oh, God, I do say every now and then I hang out with my dog, whom I love dearly. And I imagined myself I say, Well, next time I come back to this planet, I want to come back as a cute dog of a loving family. No worries in the world. With all the food you can eat all the travel, no rent, just love cuddles and treats. Yes.
Jacqueline
Particularly because I feel like being a dog would be the extreme opposite of how you and I show up. I think that you and I are like what is the new thing that we can learn and to explore, unwrap, dissect and dogs are just like I just want cuddles into play and to be outside and yummy. Yeah, exactly. So that was one of the takeaways. I think another Well, first, I just love the phrase of the idea that polyamory is a queering of relationships like that. I'm like, Yes, that is true, that open really being open and non monogamous. It's like, right, it's the equivalent of queer that that is now the package of I'm just not straight, or I'm just not mono. And there's something somewhere in between. There's something on that spectrum that resonates with me. I like that. I think that the last thing that that that also just stuck with me that I love is the quote from Albert Camus, which is, the only way to deal with unfree world is to become so absolutely free, that your very existence is an act
Effy
of rebellion. Absolutely. Yes,
Jacqueline
yes. And so she talked a little bit about kind of the nuggets of happiness and just savoring that. And so I've been thinking about that, like just ways in which you can one can find delight and joy, and how that in and of itself and just existing is an act of rebellion. I think so many of the folks that we interview when we get to that question of how do you challenge the status quo, and here's their answers by existing, right simply by being and so that totally resonates. I love
Effy
that. I love that. Yeah, those definitely stick out for me too. And of course, Albert Camus, quote resonates with so many of us who choose to live life by design rather than life by default with an activist heart. So that definitely stuck out for me, and got me excited. I'm also really interested in bringing this topic home, to tell people to remind people to consider your partner's partner or partners experience, or the experience of those who you might be dating, right, especially if you're closer to the top of the social power pyramid. Especially if you're an especially if you are partnered with or dealing those who are not. So consider consider their story, consider the their experience in the world. Listen, like like really listen with a gentle curiosity and a generous and compassionate ear, not to give advice not to tell them to do better or to feel different, or, you know, this is what you should do, but just to listen and hold space and accept and learn about their experience. So bring the stuff right home, examine your privileges and your prejudices, for sure.
Jacqueline
Yeah, yeah, we did an episode I think it's episode 30. On the podcast, where we spoke with Angie Gan about non monogamy and the paradigm shift and challenging the frameworks that oppress. And a big piece of that conversation was about power and privilege. And it was at a time when the uprising started to happen here in the United States. And we were talking about how race and class and gender and identity and sexual orientation now these are all things that were fighting in the streets, but realizing that those also have undercurrents and represent themselves back at home to your point like in our relationships, that those power dynamics exist, and that if we really want to create environments where there is equity in our country, in our world, that we need to start those in our homes and our relationships. So I encourage folks to check out that and then we did a blog post that follows up after that. You can find it on our website, we are curious foxes.com If you look up blogs, around examining power dynamics for thriving relationships,
Effy
absolutely. Yeah. I mean, on the show, we often named my privilege because we are able to talk about our open relationship structures and our sex lives to an extent because we're financially independent. We own our own business, we decide who to work with and for how long, but not everyone's in the same boat, unfortunately, so please don't force people come out as Polly, if they're not ready to introduce you to their family, their friends and colleagues, don't take it personally. Don't out people. And please don't ask people where they're really, really from. Take their first face value.
Jacqueline
Yes. I don't know you were you remember the old AVC commercials and it'd be like the star that goes across the street, the screen, it's like, the more you know, like, I feel like we need to do a little commercial. That's just please don't ask people where they're really, really from. And then that's it. And then. Yeah, on behalf of everybody in the world, please stop asking that question. Unless, I mean, to your point of view, unless you are not rooted in the trauma of growing up in the United States. And maybe that's a real genuine question, because you're from another place in the world and you're like, Oh, I'm from this place. What place are you from? And if you do just understand that that question is weighty.
Effy
Exactly. I think it's the one you're saying. Where are you really from? I think that's the best you can we can not bother doing you know, just Yeah,
Jacqueline
right. Exactly. Yes. Where are you from? And then we answer and then you say, Oh, cool. That's great. And that's it.
Effy
Exactly. Move on. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Jacqueline
If you want to find Michelle out there in the world, then you can find Michelle on Instagram at polyamorous while Asian and you can learn more about her via her website polyamorous while asian.com. And while you are online looking up websites, then you should go on to ours. We are curious foxes that calm where you can find blogs and articles from educators from authors from Fe and I about sex and thriving in open moment non monogamous relationships and resources for your personal growth. On our website. You can also find links to our Instagram and Facebook pages, which you can find at we are curious foxes, you can join the conversation about the podcast, you can see some fun pictures of us, you can be engaged with other foxes. If you'd like some more behind the scenes footage, some mini episodes and access to over 50 videos from educator led workshops, then go to our Patreon. We are curious foxes.com. And you can support this work in a few different ways. First, certainly by joining our Patreon but also by subscribing here to the podcast on Apple podcast or following us on Spotify and Stitcher. You can rate you can send a comment. And specifically I know that we say every single week like read and share, but be thoughtful or is there somebody in your life who would resonate with this particular topic? Is there someone who you talk to about intersectionality about race and faith and about class and non monogamy then share this episode if there's another specific so that you thought of that you listen to and you're like, oh, yeah, that I think this this my friend would be interested in that. Or who this would be interested in tap to talk to my partner then share it with them. And if you want to share some information with us, you can send us an email or voice memo at listening. We are curious foxes.com Where you could record a question and hopefully we will play it on the show.
Effy
This episode is produced and edited by Nina Pollock, who is essential in helping us amplify diverse voices. Our intro music is composed by Dave Saha. We are so grateful for their work, and we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and will look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends.
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