Ep 162: Compartmentalization: Friend or Foe
artwork by the talented @morelaaand
How important is compartmentalization when you are in multiple relationships? Can we go too far with "don't ask, don't tell"? Are there consequences to keeping parts of our lives separate?
In this week's episode, we take a trip into the multiple worlds within Jacqueline's mind and explore the reasons for compartmentalization and integration. Effy and Jacqueline examine why we separate some of our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors, particularly within open relationships; and reveal how too much compartmentalizing can degrade our wellbeing, our connections, and our relationships.
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Curious Fox @wearecuriousfoxes
Effy Blue @coacheffyblue
Jacqueline Misla @jacquelinemisla
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TRANSCRIPT:
Effy
Just changing your external world doesn't mean you're integrated, you just means you eliminating some of the threats out there, which is great if you can do that in a sustainable way. But if you can't, you're going to go back to your old habits, because that's just how our brains work. And that's the thing that we need to talk about. Welcome to the curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.
Jacqueline
And I'm Jacqueline Misla and today we are talking about compartmentalization versus integration. Come with us as we venture into the inner workings of my mind and my life. I feel like seeing it come with me of compartmentalization right now.
Effy
Strategy No, I think I feel like we are breaking out showtunes and we're serious. It's this refocusing episode. Yeah, it's important topic. And I'm like, oh, it's really important topic.
Jacqueline
Because you need to picture being in the Willy Wonka in the tunnel, you know, when you're in the tunnel. And then there's like the projection of the wall of like the centipede, and like the chicken's head being cut off. Like, that's what I feel like we're about to get on that boat into the inner workings of my mind. And they're just like projections happening through the mall.
Effy
Let's do it. I was like, on the side with your message. And when I heard the show, too, and I was like, What am I doing? I am 100. Okay, let's pull the levers and get on this ride. What's up? Why are you so frazzled?
Jacqueline
So yeah, so well. That's why I say this started because of that the started because you and I had a conversation that I am feeling really frazzled lately. And it is surprising to me because my brain is like a machine, right? My brain takes in data, processes it and like pushes out reports and strategies and all these things. It's wildly impressive, even for myself. And so it is surprising to me that I have been losing words that I have been forgetting things just like and I know part of it probably I imagine has to do with age. I think a truly some of it is post COVID. I feel like I had more foggy brain post COVID. But as I was peeling back the layers as I do, and talking about in therapy, as I do, you know, we started talking about how I'm engaged in lots of things, right? So I am the parent of a middle school, a middle schooler, I'm into relationships, I have, you know, multiple kinds of homes and personal commitments and different jobs, that there's a lot that's going on. And the recommendation from my therapist was pare down, right, like do less things. But I can't do less things because they are all like it would be like letting go of a part of myself, right? Like what I don't understand, like, let go of parenting my daughter of being like a partner of living in my house of cooking dinner. Like they're all I have lots of things, but they're all essential things. And so that didn't feel like an option. So we I had to I had to continue to think and what I realized is that I think what is making it so difficult is actually that I compartmentalize everything. It's like different lives, the best way I could describe it, it's like everything everywhere, all at once. Like there are different versions of me. There's Jacqueline, the the parent, and then the strategist, and then the wife, and then the partner and then the podcaster. And they're all very different. Like they don't cross paths. I keep them separate. They're like separate people. And so it is feeling. I think that's why it's feeling really taxing. I just I don't know, I don't know why it's messing with me in this in the way that it is right now.
Effy
But the thing that comes up for me straightaway is like, well, you're doing all these things. And as the demands get faster, harder, more and you're doing more things. I think the other thing that I know about you is as these demands are going up you're not actually taking care of yourself more, right, which is what you would need anyway, like, as the demands go go up for us. What we're supposed to do is we're supposed to take care of us so we can meet those demands, right? I think you and I were talking about like GBT, right? Like how, as Chad GBG learns and grows, like, you need to feed it more lectricity You need to feed it more server space unit didn't feed it more cooling, we're going to call it more. Alright, so it's the same thing, I think, yeah, as you grow and balance and you know, subscribe to these other parts of your life, you just using up more like, let's play with this analogy that your brain is a machine or a computer, and CPU, which is kind of your like, what powers or machines right CPU like capacity to process things, like the amount of CPU CPU, you need to actually hold on to that stuff is going up. And with that you're like, physical needs needs to go up. So you need to sleep more and drink more water and eat well and regularly. And you know, exercise and all those things. And if you do there was you can expand the capacity of what you can do. But what we tend to do is, and this is like literally everyone, as the demands go up, we cut down on those things to actually meet the demand demand. Yeah, so if you think about like, if chatty, BT was getting, you know, more faster, harder, but then they weren't increasing the cooling system for it, eventually, it's just going to crash because he can't handle the heat, the heat that he generates. So it's just that kind of like, near the end. When you compartmentalize the way that you do. You need extra extra CPU, because you're not you're saying this is this. So instead of saying, Here's a resource that I'm going to use for this part, this part and this part, you're going this part needs its own resource and own brain space and own thing. And then students have to duplicate some of that for another part. Because there may it may feel like there are multiples you but in in reality there is there is only you. One you right, yeah. But then you're sort of duplicating efforts and trying to keep these walls up in between different lives. And that just takes up a lot of like CPU keep that kind of like, like psychic walls up. You know, I think that's what's happening to you.
Jacqueline
Yeah. And I Yeah, no, you're right. I mean, I think eating and water, certainly doing better sleeping is always an issue. I never sleep enough. And it is because of that. I feel like there are not enough hours in the day for me to do all the things I understand. Everyone keeps telling me like, you can do all the things just not the same time. Right? Like that's the NMBS facts, true actual truth. But also though, I can't I can't lie like his budget my time Well, can I somehow. So I tried to squeeze in too much in any given day. And and then at the end of the day, my brain is so tired that I can't sleep and then my body needs sleep. It said, you know, sure the listener knows, we will we will Yes. I think
Effy
the thing that mentioned though, I think just because listeners that you said I think everybody who's listening is resonate. This is resonating with everybody who's listening right now, because it's very common. The thing, just that I want to introduce in there's potentially the idea of like, can you do all the things? Can you do them at the same time? Right? And then there's like, the third variable in there is what does doing the thing look like? Right? So that you doing to relationships? Like, what does that entail? I think the idea isn't that you don't stop being a partner. But it's like, what does that look like? Like? What kind of energy allocation? What kind of demands? What kind of, you know, obligations that you see on your activity taking on? Like, can they change, right? And I'm using you as an example. But it's like, for everybody else out there, you know, you don't have to quit your job out there, you know, listeners, but like, can there be any changes in your job? Can you have a chat with your boss and see if you can get support of somehow I'm obviously just giving examples, or, or so it's like, you can do all the things, but maybe it may need to look differently?
Jacqueline
Yes, yes. And let me add to that, and say, as I continue to dig deeper, and continue to peel my own layers, I realized that the problem, no shock to anyone is me. Because I have been, I have worked with clients that were incredibly time consuming, and energetically draining. And I left those situations to be in other consulting situations that were lighter and allows me more freedom of time. And I felt the same way. And so it's like when you leave one partnership and you go to another one and the same things keep happening. You're like, Wait a minute. And so it's like it's me, I problem. And what I realized is because at some point in my life, I mean I and you know I'm sure we'll talk through this like I went from everything being compartmentalized to things being integrated to things being compartmentalized again. And when I when I think about why am I here again, frankly, and this is also an ongoing theme in my life. It is because I am trying to control everything. I am trying to control situations, I'm trying to control people's feelings. I'm trying to control my discomfort with their feelings, you know, with their negative feelings real or perceived. And so really the compartmentalization is a strategy that I am using that is not working that I'm sure served me at some point. But it is like my now default setting that I go back to it. And so there was a point in my life where everything felt integrated, and still complicated, but smoother. And I got back here again. And like it was just like, you know, the boiling of the frog. Like I didn't even realize it happened. So slowly, I think. And now I like turn around and I can't remember words, and I don't know what's happening and like what's going on? And, and it's because my brain is all like, parceled out now again. Yeah.
Effy
I mean, that makes a lot of sense. I just want to bring two things to what you're saying. One is, you are the problem. Yes. But it's not that you personally, right, I just want to say we are all the problems in our lives, because we are the common denominators of our lives. So I just want to put that, like when Jackie's saying I am the problem, she doesn't mean literally, she is the problem. Everything about her is the problem. We are all the problem in our lives, we are the common denominators of our lives. So we're repeating patterns and finding ourselves in situations over and over again, is because we are the common denominator is our lives. And we are ultimately in control whether Well, we have control of ourselves, whether we whether we like it or not. So that's I just want to bring that out there. Because I think Jack is amazing. So and that's and you out there listeners, when I say you are the problem. I mean, there's anything wrong with you. It's just that you're in the driving seat and you you can drive anywhere you like. That's just what I'm saying to you. Yes, yeah. And the other thing is, we're talking about compartmentalization. So I feel like we should just talk about what that is, because this is what we're talking about today. And I know, once we I mean, I'm sure most of you have heard it out there. And I would say even more of you have done it at some point because it is one of the common defense mechanisms of the human psyche. It is one of the ones and we all use all the defense mechanisms. And some people have favorite ones, you know, and compartmentalization happens to be one of you know, Jackie's and mine to an extent. But Anna Freud wrote about 10 defense mechanisms, I think there's like another four that was added to that list. And compartmentalization is one of them. And we all as humans use them as a part of a way to save our psyche. And today, we're just going to talk about compartmentalization. It is a way that the psyche manages fear and anxiety by separating thoughts and feelings that contradict each other in different compartments, if you will, to avoid what they call cognitive dissonance, right? And cognitive dissonance is that when you have like, two ideas that conflict with one another, and you your brain, kind of like frazzles, and you can't hold the two things together. So it puts them into separate compartments to just manage the anxiety, discomfort, the you know, whatever, all the all the negative feelings like they're coming up, they're overwhelmed. So somebody actually gave me a really good example the other day, they said women who vote for somebody who doesn't support equal rights for women, there's a cognitive dissonance there, right? They the idea that they're women themselves, right, but they're voting for somebody because they believe in maybe some other values that they this person stands for maybe fiscal responsibility, maybe religious views, but they're essentially the fact that they're women, and they like rights. And then this politician is actually is going to continue this, this idea of women not having rights in they still vote, there's a cognitive dissonance there. And that's an compartmentalizes and kind of happens there so that they can feel okay with by voting, right, or somebody in a relationship. And they only focus on, you know, the good days. And they're kind of putting all these like big major problems to one side and compartmentalizing and can't kind of see how those things are connected or the severity of this one. One thing is just this one thing, but it's kind of a major thing. You know, that is also a way of compartmentalization. That happens and it's to manage, I mean, our brains do it because we're trying to survive, like it's very much a survival, survival system, you know, and at the most extremes, people can actually almost temporarily forget whatever their compartmentalizing exists, you know, like, they can kind of put them into compartments so much, you know, let's say you have, they have two relationships, and they've kind of compartmentalize them, they can, they can temporarily forget even the other one exists, it can be it can be that deep. And that's kind of that's kind of a compliment though, isn't it? And it works, right? It works for situations like just to sort of mentioned why we do it right. It is effective, because when it's healthy and we will do it in a healthy way or Like for everyday, like basic survival, not out of sort of just automatic reaction. It's like you wake up in the morning and you have an argument with your partner, you go out into the world, and you carry that you carry that emotional charge, and you end up screaming at the barista who may be like forgot to put a lid on your coffee, right? And, and that is when you know, that is when you want to be compartmentalizing. That is when you kind of want to be like, Okay, this is my situation at home, I'm now in the world, and this person has working, you know, minimum wage and give him my coffee does not have to bear the brunt of my shitty morning. Right. So we do want to compartmentalize like, it is a healthy thing to compartmentalize. But when we do it at a detriment of our well being our mental health, then it becomes a problem.
Jacqueline
Yeah, that's so interesting that you give that example, too, because as I have been reflecting on all of this, I've been thinking about where did I see this? Where has this been role modeled for me, and my parents who are now divorced, show up very differently in the world, both have trouble emotional with emotional regulation, but both do it very differently. My father kind of wears all of his emotions on his sleeve, he, you know, could be furious, and weep and be avoided, like just all the things and it was kind of turbulent, because you didn't know what to expect. And you knew that you would feel whatever it was like you would have to, you would like put it out there for everybody. My mom, on the other hand, locked it all away. So you had no idea what she was feeling. And you know, we she wouldn't be in the car, let's say we'd be driving to church. And she'd be in this arguing with my father. And as soon as she walked into church, my father would be brooding and standing in the back. And my mom would be smiling and talking to everyone and laughing as if nothing ever happened. And I remember as a kid looking at both of those examples and being like, which one, I want to be like the one who's like, in the back all mad and like, you know, steam coming, or the one who's like glowing and like socializing around the room. Now, of course, as an adult, I feel very differently. My relationship with my mother and father have only switched, where I really have appreciation for the level of transparency that my father shows up that mean, we need, there's some stuff that needs to happen there. But at least there's trust with my mom, I was like, I have no idea what you're thinking and feeling. And that feels really unsafe. But I know that I modeled so much of how I showed up in the world based on that example of saying like, Oh, I'm not going to put my feelings out there like that. I'm going to push them away deep inside, put a big smile on my face. And like, that's the way I'm supposed to handle it. And I think that you're also right, if I if I look at why I'm doing it is the result of fear and avoidance and shame. That is exactly why I'm compartmentalizing.
Effy
Yeah, it's effective like this is it's super effective as a defense mechanism. And just like any defense mechanism, or anything, in fact, the more you do it, the better you get at it. And when we have our favorite IDs, we they're our favorite because one, we probably can do it well in the first place. And D we keep doing it, we get even better at it. So of course it's the thing that we pull out every time we need to deal with something.
Jacqueline
Yes. And like get so good at that trick myself. I remember you and I were talking about this recently. And I was saying to you, you know, I don't remember being like this this bad before. Like, you know, being this frazzled or being this compartmentalised. And you were like it was always like this, you mask so well, that you mask to yourself, that you just remember the masking and I'm like, that's true. Because my so so the first 30 plus years of my life, you know, there was a real separation between my interior and my exterior world. Right, there was a real compartmentalization between all of the things I was feeling about my queerness about non monogamy about the way I wish I saw the world the way I wanted to, apparently, everything. And then there was a way that I showed up in the world to be successful, you know, in the world. And I was super good, super good at the masking and the compartmentalization. And then I went through all the work, you know, I changed my jobs, I got divorced, I got into an open relationship, like all so many of the things I changed my external world to match my interior world. And it felt like there was real integration between the two things. I remember I was in an open relationship and I'm talking to my wife, about my partner, my partner about my wife, and to the point where we're like, helping each other get ready for dates. And like, you know, have like, you know, coming back and telling each other all about it or in my work world working with clients and telling them and they would say I listen to the latest episode of the podcast, it was so great and I'm like, Oh, that's so like there was really this this integration that felt exciting and felt comforting and felt safe. Of course, it was still my interior world and some of that, but it felt I just felt more unified. And then over time, they'd like that sneaky bastard. That sneaky compartmentalization. Bastard snuck back in and now, I don't it's not necessarily distinction between my interior my exterior, it's more So now that I have multiple exterior worlds, again, it's everything everywhere all at once there is this storyline where this thing is happening. And then there's this other world in this storyline where this thing is happening. The way that it looks like very concretely is that it shows up almost like a don't ask, don't tell within my relationships, you know, we went from one point of like, seeing each other and like talking about it all the time, and all those kinds of things. And now I keep the relationships very separate. To the extent that this is where I know it's me. I don't even like when they reference each other. So if I'm talking to my wife, and she's like, oh, you know, when you are there, you know, when you were doing this thing, what did she say about this? And there's something in my mind that's like, how do you know about her? Like, why are you on the phone with my partner? And she's like, Well, what do you and your wife doing this weekend? Or whatever? I'm like, why are you asking me that question? There's something I have now travelled to this place where I don't want them to even acknowledge that the other thing exists. I almost pretend like that is my only my only relationship when my partner will say will text me when you get home? When I'm switching back? In the past? I'd be like, This is why home like what are you talking about? No, of course, she's right. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make any sense. But it's like that level of extreme where I don't even want my worlds to know about my other world. Yeah.
Effy
I mean, I've heard people say they feel sick, like viscerally have, like it shakes them so much, just that the walls they've built are so so big and wide and thick, that if somehow like something crosses it, it causes like such a rattle in their psyche that they physically feel sick. I've heard that before you know that it's so rooted that division. And like I said, there are people who even forgets like they actually forget that they have a whole other life on the other side, or if one partner they forget that they have the other partner with the other they forget they have the other so Don't Ask Don't Tell, often is a type of compartmentalization. And look, there are healthy Don't Ask, Don't Tell us. I'm not judging. Don't. Don't Ask Don't Tell as a thing. And if there is an insistent on don't assume that I would still as a coach would be like, Okay, can we just talk about the why, like, can we just face the why of Don't Ask, Don't Tell makes sense to you? And if we can face it and talk about and it makes sense to everybody, then of course you do you do whatever you're going to thrive in is just sort of having that conversation. Why is it that we're doing it? Is it because we don't want to face something, then, you know, the question is like, Is that Is that really the right thing to do? Right? So that's one thing. And the other thing is, you know, you're talking about your compartmentalised, and then you found this like happy medium, some point in your life that you were unified or integrated. And then you sort of find yourself again, on the other side of it, where you compartmentalizing again. So compartmentalization is a defense mechanism. Right? So when I hear your story, or or anybody else who resonates with what I'm hearing is, I was unsafe, for whatever reason, so I compartmentalize to feel safe. And then I found I just came across or I built or I made choices, or whatever your circumstances is, and I created an environment, again, an external environment, right? Where it felt safe, like I didn't feel threatened. It's not that you coped with things, right. It's not like you actually like we were compartmentalizing, you integrated, and then you moved on with your life, your compartmentalizing, you change your outside world. So it wasn't so threatening or unsafe. So suddenly, you are integrated, or you're showing up integrated or unified, because you don't feel threatened during that period. Right? And then wife changes, circumstances change, and I know your story. And I know yours has changed and anybody who's listening, and now you feel unsafe, again, for whatever reason. And now you're going back to your favorite defense mechanism, which is compartmentalization. And now you're that's why you're re compartmentalizing, you know. And it's, it's because along the way it takes work to do integration. Just changing your external world doesn't mean you're integrated, you just means you're eliminating some of the threats out there, which is great if you can do that in a sustainable way. But if you can't, you gotta go back to your old habits, because that's just how our brains work. And that's the thing that we spoke about.
Jacqueline
Yeah, I know, you're right. I think the shift for me from when I was feeling, you know, unified or integrated was, well, actually, let me let me even talk about the build up to that. So separate exterior and interior worlds in my first marriage, and, you know, again, my early 30s and then went through the process of getting a divorce going into relationship with my wife, open relationship, you know, got married, all those things, but if you know my story, there's lots of podcast episodes you can listen to there was infidelity that was involved in there, and that was really scary and unstable and destabilizing. And so there was again, that separation. We're on the outside as much as I could, which it was really actually hard for me. I was like, This is great. A marriage is great non monogamy is great. And in the inside, I was like dying. Now, because it was so hard, my dying came out much more than I would have wanted. And like I revealed, like the mask like fell off and crumbled into the floor many more times. But we finally did get to a place I think when when my wife and I got to a place of being feeling healed through a lot of years of work that we did together, she was in another relationship and felt happy, then I started my relationship with my partner. And I felt happy. And we were like, non monogamy felt like a big center of our world, like the way in which we were navigating these relationships. We were just so happy about it, because it had been such a challenge in our relationship for so long that we were like, Yeah, and we were in after she come back from a date. What did you do? And what did you talk about? And what about you, and like I said, it felt like I can be honest in in all spaces and talk about it in all spaces. And then frankly, few things happen. Number one, non monogamy no longer became the center of our world, you know, life moved on to newness of it. Exactly. And we're like, Alright, now we got to go pay the bills and make dinner. So that that happened, but then she, my wife ended they they ended that relationship. So now I was the only one in another partnership. And my partner, more and more started to be honest about her the kind of envy that she felt from my my, my life with my wife. Number one that we're married, we own a home together, there's more connection to family. So on one hand, I felt bad now for my wife, because here I am, every other week, going to spend time with my partner, and being involved in this other thing, and she doesn't have that anymore. And now I feel bad for my partner. Because when I go back to my wife, house, you know, and we ended, then I feel like she feels bad because I have this whole other world. And I didn't want any of them to feel bad about my other relationship. And so then I stopped talking about it. And then it led to the place where I was like, even mad now that they're talking about it. I'm like, I'm like, it's just gonna make you uncomfortable. Can we can nobody mentioned it? Don't you mention it? Don't I mention it? I just I felt like I was trying to protect their feelings,
Effy
which I think goes back to what you were saying at the top was kind of what comes with compartmentalization is also desire for control. Right? I think the compartmentalization is an effort to control as well as control your own thoughts and feelings and reality is and controlling other people's thoughts, realities, feelings, you know. So I think for you, those seem to be your favorite coping mechanisms fake, like control and commitment. And here's the thing with defense mechanisms, they are greed, short term solutions, right? They are there for a reason, like our psyches are incredibly evolved. This is why our psyche and the way that the way that our brains work, is what sets us apart from animals, right animals are actually way more survived survivors than we are in terms of like being in nature. And what sets us apart as humans is the way that our psyche has evolved and what we're able to hold in our brains and our imagination, and, and to be able to ask the question, why, for example, and then speculate from there, an animal can't do that the, the animal can ask as far as what, you know, like the most sophisticated animals can really just ask what, right but they can't really sort of go as far as the why and then go into the speculation of it, the story of it, the imagination of it, the creativity of it, right, and that's what sets us apart. So that also allows us to have these like elaborate defense mechanisms it within our psyche, and they are useful and they work, but they're supposed to be short term solutions deal with the moment and we're supposed to then take care of things down the line. That's how they're designed to be. So like we spoke earlier, it's okay to compartmentalize your feelings in that moment. So you're not going to scream at the barista, or maybe like crying in office in a meeting in the middle of a meeting, right? So they're supposed to sort of help us get through the day. But if you don't ever go back to those boxes, it's like you don't take the trash out. You just like put it into a cupboard one day and another in a closet the other day, and you tuck one behind the couch the other day, and you're just never take the trash is getting emptied, apparently, right? But these like bags of trash, or you also can't see them, they're like neatly put away, right? And then, you know, a month later you're going What the fuck is the smell? Right? And you like conveniently forgotten. And then the problem is now the whole place smells great. You've kind of forgotten you put things there and now you're like, I don't know you're now you're like washing the floors right thinking, why can't I get rid of the smell? Right? And it's the same thing if you compartmentalize in that way. You don't go back and take the trash out like it's okay to just like put things under the bed so that you can photograph you can do like an Instagram post right? But you do need to clean that shit out. And I think yeah, When you don't do that, when you sustain that that defense mechanism for over a long period of time, it isn't. It's not how our brains meant to work, and it takes up too much. Too much effort, you know? So in fact, actually what you're talking about sort of compartmentalizing within the, with the non monogamous relationships are actually very common like I see I see it often like we talked about the Don't Ask Don't Tell being a way for people to compartmentalize and and that's kind of where you are, like you were saying, even though you don't have a Don't Ask, Don't Tell in place, you kind of treating it that way. Right. And I find that this when I work with clients, and this comes up very common, by the way, very common in non monogamy, especially if you don't have this like kitchen table poly lifestyle, which is very rare, right? We talk about it a lot. But it's actually kind of rare. Most people are doing parallel poly or, you know, open relationships in you know, they're sort of multiple couple couple of them's right. And people compartmentalize for similar reasons to why you do it. Well, the top three reasons that I come across as a part of them doesn't feel like they should be in multiple relationships. Right? There's a part of them that even though they've agreed, and it's consensual and talked about, we still have that, that feeling that I shouldn't really be doing that, like we've internalized some message about affairs message about what relationships should look like. But we It doesn't sit well with us, right? It brings up shame, right, shame, is a great deterrent. So we compartmentalize to deal with shame. Right? So that's one of the reasons. The other reason that I see is that they have a feeling true or not, that their partner doesn't really want to be in a relationship and open relationship, right? Maybe they're the ones that introduced it. And they know their partner kind of agreed to it that don't really wanted, or they're kind of reluctant, but they kind of said they go along with it, that they feel like they're, you know, they don't actually want it right. And in that case, it brings up fear, right. Fear is also a big one that we want to protect ourselves from, that's when we compartmentalize. And the third thing that I see a lot is the partner's not having a great time, right? Maybe they're going through a breakup on the other side, or, you know, or maybe they're solo and you know, this the stories that you're telling me right, these are very, very common. So it brings up guilt. Again, a huge deterrent. This is like the three horsemen. You got shame, fear and guilt. Right? Like it's just like the three horsemen and with this is what we mostly defend ourselves from. So we compartmentalize we compartmentalize our feelings. You know, this is when we come home from an amazing date. And at the door, before we put a key in the door, we shake it off, or put a plain face in and come in as if you just came in from work, right? Like if you're doing that you're compartmentalizing, that is what's happening. And my invitation to you would be is that working for you? Yeah, you know, yeah,
Jacqueline
you read all the things? Yes, I think it is definitely internalized messages around what should and should not be, I think it is shame from a place of, frankly, I think it's shame, around prioritizing my needs and my desires. That is something that I feel, I feel like selflessness is something that was a value that was instilled in me. And it feels selfish, to be in something or to be involved in something that could hurt somebody that I care about. And so I feel bad about it. And it feels like, let me say this, it's not coming from nowhere. You know, my wife has talked in the past about feeling, you know, lonely sometimes, or feeling, you know, having feelings about not being engaged in something else. And it's not about limiting me and what I'm doing, she's just talking about her own experience. And similarly with my partner, you know, she's expressed feeling, you know, envy and around some of the things and she's not trying to impact my marriage, she's just talking about her feelings. But I have taken those things on instead of just being responsive to theirs, I've been responsible for their feelings and saying, Oh, if you feel that way, it is my somehow responsibility to control the situation and myself so that you no longer feel bad. And every time I do something that that doesn't feel like it's in alignment with this commitment that I've made to myself to not make them feel bad, even though it's not my responsibility, I feel bad about it, I feel shame. And then there's a piece to your point that I feel fear, I feel like eventually, they're gonna be like, well screw this, you know, and I mean, this situation that makes me feel bad. I'm out here, and then it feels unsafe. And so there's a part of me that's like, make everyone happy, make everything happy. Again, this goes back not surprisingly, to my childhood, right with wanting to make sure everything was okay. Everyone's happy. Everyone was emotionally stable, right? Like and I felt control over it. They get to control all those things.
Effy
Just want to add something to what you're saying. The first point that you learned about shame and how you feel responsible for you know everyone's feelings. And when I hear that and I No, so many people do again, like, I know that you're very bravely and generously sharing your story. I just hear the similar stuff from so many people that I know it's coming out there and people are listening, and who will resonate with this. So when I say this, I don't mean you personally, it's but when when we talk like this when when one talks like this, there's hubris in that, right, that you are this almighty force that can control and have this impact on other people and are responsible for their feelings and their well being. And if you didn't do that, what will happen to them, rather than kind of seeing these humans as individuals are also very capable of taking care of themselves, right? There's like hubris in Oh, like, you know, you as being this like, almighty powerful force that can make or break people, you know, totally. And the invitation is like, when you feel that hubris is a path to humility, right? So like hubris, to humility, and realizing you are human, and you're among peers, who are also capable human beings, who, you know, can take care of themselves and have done so until this point in their lives, and encourage dialogue and curiosity about how everyone's feeling, rather than kind of going in and I going well, it's my responsibility to change how you feel it's my responsibility to make sure you're not sad, or you're not lonely, or even within this idea of like, Oh, I'm being selfish. There is like hubris in there. And I'm being selfish that like, it's like, Are you being selfish, you're just taking care of yourself, which is what you're supposed to be. And the fact that you not, you're not able to change, you know, other people's feelings is like, somehow selfish. Like, there's even hubris in that, right. And again, I say that they say this with love and respect and kindness. It is it is No, it's true. It is just to think about in that way,
Jacqueline
it's so true. It's true. And and I mean, a few different things. Number one, my partner, my wife, let's say in those specific examples have said to me, this is not about you. This is my own feelings that I need to work out, and I use it. And I know that feeling negative feelings is as important as feeling joyful feelings. Like I know, personally, I love. I mean, you know, I just started reading like Russian literature, like I like, I'm like the most Emo, like, give me all the bad feelings. That's the thing I want to. And so the fact that I'm trying to rob someone else of negative feelings, when it is really a place that I love to thrive about, and think about and write about and listen about, it doesn't make any sense. Like it's not it's disconnected from what my values are. I want people to have autonomy, I want people to live their full lives. But I also know that when I was a kid, I had this overblown sense of my responsibility and my power, because I was the oldest of three, I was in a house that felt at times emotionally unsafe. And so when my father, let's say, was gonna come home from work, and I knew that he was gonna be upset, because our shoes were out, and we didn't put our cups in the sink, I would rally the siblings and be like, Come on, everybody, like we got to. And in my mind, I'm preventing this catastrophe from happening, right? When my parents are arguing, not talking to each other. And I mitigate, and I bring them to some sort of reconciliation, there's a story in my mind that I have power, because these are the people who created me who are like, in charge of making sure I'm still alive. And yet, I have done something that has changed the way they have shown up or prevented something or whatever. And so there was a real, there has been this real sense in my mind that I actually do have all the power and control. And it has been really hard. And you know, parenting has been one place where that narrative has kicked my ass. Because I kept believing no matter what I did, if I said something this way versus that way. Like I took so much responsibility around my daughter's joy and pain, and it is now you know, she's she's 12. Now, and I'm starting, I'm still in the process of letting some of that stuff go. But it's my point is that it's really deeply held sure belief of mine, that I am trying now with my adult brain to care for my inner children and teach myself a different lesson. But it is it is, so you are right. And it's true. And there's a part of me that still is like bloody even though.
Effy
But actually,
Jacqueline
actually wait like the adult brain is like it's hubris and the children are like, it's facts. Yeah, we are in control of everything.
Effy
Sure. But that is also true that children are appropriately narcissistic, right, that is a part of our developmental stage. Because we are the center of the world, because our world are our parents, and we are the center of their world. So we do think that we're the center of the world, like think about it when a baby smiles or says a word. Everyone's like, Oh my God. And then everybody around me like, of course, like in those early years, I think we're the center of the universe and because we are the center of some people's universes, you know, and then ideally, we develop And we realize we are part of a, you know, community a unit. And we understand that our boundaries are limitations. But if something goes wrong, if you get put in charge of things, while your brain still thinks you are the center of the world, then those things, those things bond, like those things, actually bond, and he's been saying, I am all mighty and powerful. And I'm in charge of these things. And now it's like, yes, written the code, you know?
Jacqueline
Yes, yes. And when I write an exquisite email, I really do expect that people will call me and be like, like, it's my first word. Like, I am genuinely shocked and appalled when I will get immediate slack messages or emails being like, oh, my god, that was powerful. I've never read an email like that before. Like, what I don't get those responses, I totally understand what's happening. World.
Effy
Listeners, every episode, please take a second to committed and just green, those DMS on Jackie
Jacqueline
linkings. Please do it's true. I'm like pouring my heart out on the podcast. And I'm like, nothing, nothing? No. Fine. Okay, but No way. You're, you're, you're 100%. Right.
Effy
Again, I think it's, I would really encourage you, and anybody who this conversation is resonating with is to examine their sense of safety, right? This stuff is happening because you don't feel safe. And most of the time, we can trace that, that thought that feeling down to rejection or abandonment. Interestingly, most of that stuff, it's actually kind of very, very early on, like our core fear, cohort, core human fi feeling is like abandonment or rejection. And actually, it's because we registered that as death, right, our psyches of all that we know as children, for not taking care of, if we are rejected or abandoned, we will die like that is very much written in the human psyche is like the ultimate fear. Fear of death is our ultimate fear, right? Survival is the prime directive, and abandonment. And rejection is registered in our in our mind, if you don't work on it as death, like it is really that it's actually kind of that simple. But the story is complex, right? And then the way that we string those ideas together, and how you can work them down, down, down and down, and like, Oh, I think I'm going to die. Like I'm the reason why I'm having this like a major reaction to something that doesn't feel that major is because like those dots connect in the background, and I think I'm going to die, right? So similarly, you compartmentalizing about your relationships, perhaps I can imagine the dots connect as like, you know, if I don't compartmentalize and find so much joy, that it's going to upset people, and they're going to be upset, and then they're going to leave, and then you're rejected or abandoned, you know, and you're going to perish, right? Like that's kind of how kind of I can see how this connects, say with control. Like if I don't control how the other person is feeling and make sure is nothing but puppy dogs and rainbows, they're eventually going to leave. And here we are rejection, abandonment, death of a hair just like all these that's, you know, like, it's amazing how quickly our minds like connect these like crazy ass dots from something, it's true. And then you're reacting. You're trying to defend you defend yourself, and it's like you'd like desperately try and defend yourself from like, you deep of unconscious thinking you're going to die, you know, and that's why changing the environment will help because it's not going to it will temporarily will stop that first trigger that connects all these dots, then perishing, right? What you need to do for like a longer term situation, a longer term stability is unlink some of these dots, right? That examine the idea of you, your partner fuming lonely, because of the decisions they've made. Right? That leading to them, thinking it's about you and leaving you are the dots that you are choosing to connect those dots you don't already connect, right? So until you don't connect those dots automatically, and deal with the discomfort of it. Like, oh, my wife feels lonely, and is the day that's my switch day and I'm going to leave her and go to my partner. And it sucks. It sucks everyone right and sit with the discomfort of that and let it wash over you. And don't connect the dots to now I'm going to be lonely and perish, right? I'm going to be alone and perish. That's when the integrated integration starts. That's when you're saying I'm going I'm going to sit with the discomfort. I'm going to let the shame wash through me right all work on work on this idea that it is not shameful I do deserve it. And it is not selfish to work on these ideas until you cut the lines between these dots. You will find yourself back in that place because the connecting the dots that get you there As the outside environment triggers you, and you can get rid of triggers, but you can't and alone in any kind of long term sustainable kind of way.
Jacqueline
Yes, yes, no, is that 100%? Everything you're saying is true? Particularly because I, I know, so yes, I that is what my happens in my head, everyone's gonna leave me, I'm gonna now be off on the street alone and die. That's fact. But I also know that's not true. Like know, from a deep place. I know that I'm a loving partner, I get validation from my partners all the time. There is not a message that I have received yet, that has been said, this is actually true. The thing that you're thinking about being abandoned and dying in the street is actually a possibility. Nothing has validated that. And so, you know, sitting in therapy and and trying to peel this back and realizing, as you say that it's about trust and abandonment. And a revelation that came up in that conversation is the reason I don't trust other people and I feel that they are going to abandon me is because I don't trust myself. And I've abandoned myself.
Effy
Exactly, exactly. You know,
Jacqueline
the two places that my therapist was like, we need to start like from the basics. Like we need to start way back down to when you have to pee, go pee. Like she's like, if she's like, I'm sure if you your body's like I have to pee, you're like let me just finish this email. Let me just finish cooking. Let me just finish this conversation. Let me just and I'm like I do and she's like, No, because you're telling your body, I hear your message and I don't care. I don't care about this knee that you're telling me and you wait until like you really have to go and like run to the bathroom. She's like, why are you and you're annoying, right? And I'm annoying. Yeah. Oh my God completely annoyed with my body? How dare you? How dare you have to be my humanity is one of the most frustrating like what sleeping eating? What are these things that I need to do that you're taking me away from my purpose in life? So I you know, she was saying that I need to rebuild trust in those places. When I'm hungry, eat something when I'm thirsty, drink something, when I'm feeling discomfort, sit in the discomfort. Because immediately as soon as I start to feel uncomfortable, because some I believe someone else is uncomfortable that I my mind moves to how am I going to fix it? How am I going to change the subject? Which is something that my mom would do? How am I going to address it? How am I going to fix it? How am I gonna and so she's like you continue to abandon yourself and your own needs, your feelings, your discomfort. And until you can be there for yourself and trust yourself, you will not believe in anyone and you won't believe that anyone will be there for you. And so that's where my work has brought me is to peeing and drinking water.
Effy
Yes, this is the basics that we think it sounds so simple, we think it's easy. And for those people in our situation, it's not it's simple, but not easy for sure.
Jacqueline
And let me also just note, I think the simplicity of it is what makes me laugh. As you as you know, again, in the thing that I do in the world in my life is I work on strategy, really complex situations, what what people call me in for is when they have no idea how to get out of a situation when they are in the midst of some change, let's say within a company, and they have no idea they call me in and I help them get through it. So the fact that I can support other people in navigating through complication, I'm incredibly good at sitting through other people's discomfort when it comes to work having really difficult conversations really good at those things, but not for myself. When it comes to
Effy
Yeah, sir. Sure. And I think just to extend on that on that trust piece, it's also like, let's think of the worst case scenario, right? Your partner, your wife and your partner leave you, you know, your daughter goes off to college and starts on her own life, and you are fired from your last job. And you're sort of technically speaking, either you're abandoned by everyone, right? Even then you have yourself, we get so we get so wrapped up in this idea like oh, we ultimately abandoned and therefore when we go to the perishing piece, which is the child as a child, we would perish we would die but not as an adult that we are today and it is then we need to actually get back into our body get back into the the moment that we're in as a capable adults that have got us to this point in life and realize even then I trust myself to find my way out of a situation. Right. And I think we kind of the thought stop says everybody abandons me like I think of the worst case scenario and then we go we have two options, right we can get and then we perish, right? Yes. Oh, I sit my ass down and I figured out I figured out a way to get out of the situation. And I find some Jonas I find people who are plagued with what we're talking about now. People who are plagued with I'm going to abandon I'm going to be rejected and abandoned I'm going to perish and disappear into into oblivion are some of the most capable people out there. They are the people that will will fall find a way out because they have done and they're capable of they have the skills. And I find that that I think is fascinating to me. Those who think that abandonment means death and oblivion are some of the most capable people who will get themselves out of this situation. Like I'm an outsider this easy, by the way, so much of the stuff that you're saying resonate with me i compartmentalize, of course, rejection and abandonment are big fears of mine. So it's not like, I have sold all that stuff out. I'm amazing. I don't care about anything, I'm the best. That is not who I am. Everything you're saying resonates with me. And I've experienced it just my stories are different. But the feelings are all of that I very much feel them and experience them. And I'm also a super capable person. Like, I've traveled the world on my own. And I and when I work with other other people who are feeling the same way, I'm like, you will be for you and will people will be fine. You know, and you Jackie, I know you and you will people will be absolutely fine. I am the same objectively, when I'm not in that mindset. I'm like, Oh, of course, I'll be fine. You know, I've gotten myself out of so many situations that whatever is thrown at me, I will find a way. But when you're in it when you connecting that dot abandonment equals like perish moment that you Oblivion, that is the work that is where the work is, like cutting that line cutting that connections is the work and it's so so hard.
Jacqueline
Yes, yes, yes. And that's, you know, in therapy, now I'm doing some parts work and having conversations with my younger self to say that, like, you can trust me, I'm a grown up. Now. We got this. And, you know, I may not know how to get out of this particular situation in this moment, but I need you to trust that I have the resources and capacity that I will, and we're gonna be okay. I think what is fascinating to me is that all of this stuff that I am saying that I know to be true. And so you know, this is work that I'm gonna, I'm gonna continue to do I realize it is as a result of we need to compartmentalize, as you said, right? I can't like show up at work as I would at a play party. I can't, you know, I can't like there's a time for everything I'm going to show up differently. But I realize it is because there's this illusion of control that I have, there is this overtaking on other people's responsibilities. And essentially, you know, it's taking an energetic toll and messing with my peace of mind, because it all comes down to the relationship that I have with myself. And so I on that journey, which makes it more complicated, right, because my shame is around prioritizing myself. And in order to heal myself, I'm gonna have to continue to prioritize myself. So yeah, I said, buckle up, everyone. We're going into the tunnel.
Effy
Yes, yeah. We just been through this. And I feel like it's you're in good shape. And the other thing is, you know, the fact that you're able to talk about it, where you are right now. And I know that you and I had conversations off the record. If you believe it or not, it's not like we have all our conversations.
Unknown Speaker
Record all of our conversations,
Effy
record. For the diehard fans for the for Patreon. Yeah, well, they can tell us like you guys think you are interesting, you know, that interesting. I don't know, I think to myself was humorous. So yeah, and I think you're talking about it is number one, like therapy, of course, if you can afford it, if it's available to you, if not, a trusted friend who's got life experience is not going to judge you. I'm journaling, just getting it out of you putting it somewhere. So it's not in your head. And of course, this stuff lives in our heads. And there's somewhere else you can live within our bodies that you know, I've been saying this for a long time and be using in my coaching and my own healing. But over the last sort of six months to a year, I just can't imagine healing happening until you go through the body. It's just It's just what I really have come to a place. I just don't think anybody can heal fully until you also go through the body. And and the more we live in our heads, the more we get wrapped up in this stuff. And sometimes it's just about spending more time in our bodies, in our physical bodies. And whether that's meditation, as yoga is dancing, it's what running you know, there is no prescription on that. But the invitation is, all the stuff happens in our heads. And there is a safer place like we can be in our body, we can find safety in our body. And once we get there, that's when you're actually healing and finding the solutions and rewiring your brain so that you're not going to your favorite, you know psychic defense mechanisms. But you're actually in those moments be able to go into your body and say where am I feeling this? Where is that feeling coming from? Let it go to you because it's a nervous system holds a feeling for 90 seconds, like charge the actual charge, electrical current that goes through our nervous system into our muscles. 90 seconds previewing, right, what persists is the thought we stay with the thought we stay with the thoughts if fires again, it fires again, it fires again, it gets into repetitive mode. If we can, in that moment, go into our body and let the charge go through our body and experience that 90 seconds. You just have to hold on for 90 seconds. It does pass.
Jacqueline
Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. That's the process that I'm going to know what you're describing. Essentially it is looking at my life and thinking and doing an assessment to see where and how am I compartmentalizing? In what situations Am I compartmentalizing? With who? Why am I doing that thing? Why am I separating those things out? What are the messages that are driving the compartmentalization? What is the need then behind? And underneath that message? What's the narrative shift that I have to make? And then what's the work that I have to do both in terms of the mental narrative shift, but to your point, being physically in my body feeling when I need something, and then doing that thing, like, if we're going down the Willy Wonka tunnel, at the end, there's like a food stand and a bathroom like, yeah, like at the end of it is just like meet your basic needs. And like a bed like start from a place of of not abandoning, I have to realize I have to start from place from not abandoning myself and trusting myself. Sure. And then the other things will come from there. But it started with curiosity, with me exploring, like, what is going on here, and peeling back and peeling back and peeling back? And then, you know, curiosity brought me back to me. And that's where I'm at. I will be happy to keep you posted as I get back into a place of integration. I was there before. I will get there again. Yeah, I know. I know. I know it. I believe in me, I believe
Effy
in you too. And I believe in everybody who's out there who's listening who is on this path. Because I know there's so many of us out there. So we believe in you we really do you will get there. You know how to get support, you know, healthcare professionals, you can mental health care professional if you can. If not, or on top of that, you know, trusted friends or community journal, you always have yourself and keep going. It is a path is a journey.
Jacqueline
Yeah. If this resonates with you, and you want to share your story, ask questions or just commiserate with me. And now that you know that I want people to message me immediately, they'll tell me how good everything I do is, you can do that by going onto our Facebook group. And we are curious foxes. If you are a member of the group, we encourage you to start a conversation if one is not there to join a conversation that you see there. But go on to we're curious foxes and Facebook, find our group there. You can also go to our website at we're curious foxes.com You're going to find other episodes and blog posts and resources that are related to this topic related to lots of topics that we do under the umbrella of love, sex and relationships. And if you want bonus cuts mini episodes, if you want some of the hilarious outtakes that you can imagine that we have and online workshops and a lot more than you can go onto Patreon. At we are curious foxes. And we would love for you to share this episode with someone who you think needs to hear it. If this conversation has meant something to you, then you can do a few different things. First, make sure that you're following us or subscribed on Apple or Spotify or audible or Stitcher or YouTube or any of the places where you listen to us make sure that you're following so that you can get connected with us and our stories every single week. And then leave a review, leave a rating and please forward this to somebody else. Let them have access to this content because our mission is to change the noise. And lastly, we would love to hear from you. If you have a question or a story that you'd like to share. You can send us an email or voice memo to listening at we are curious foxes.com
Effy
This episode is produced by Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla with help from Yağmur Erkişi. Our editor is Nina Pollack, who encourages us to be fully integrated and self expressed every episode. Our intro music is composed by dev Saha, we are so grateful for their work, and we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic. We solely aim to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind. And we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious and curious, curious. Thank you. Take care and stay curious.
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