Ep 161: Relationship Evolution and Communication Tools for Modern Relationships with Multiamory's Dedeker, Emily and Jase

artwork by the talented @julia_hanke

How can relationship structures evolve over time? How can we thrive as our relationships change? What are some essential communication tools that can support our relationships and those in it? 

In this week’s episode Effy is joined by fellow podcasters Dedeker, Emily and Jase of Multiamory.  Dedeker, Emily and Jase share how their relationship evolved from a quad to a long term triad to now a whole other structure and reflect on highs and lows of each phase of their relationship. Effy, Dedeker, Emily and Jase also discuss the communication tools they have developed over the years and now published as a book of the same name. 

You can get a copy of Multiamory: Essential Tools for Modern Relationships on the Curious Fox Bookshop. 

To find out more about Multiamory - Dedeker Winston, Emily Matlack, Jase Lindgren

Jase, Emily, and Dedeker created the Multiamory Podcast in 2014 to raise awareness, provide approachable resources, and combat the stigma faced by people in non-traditional relationships. Today, with hundreds of episodes, millions of downloads around the world, and a rapidly growing community, they are dedicated to offering practical advice and communication tools, grounded in the latest relationship research, guest experts, and years of professional experience. Multiamory has been featured in numerous publications, including NPR, Vice, Huffington Post, Oprah Daily, Cosmopolitan, and Elle. In addition to their national tours, they have presented at the Google campus in Seattle and have been keynote speakers and presenters at numerous conferences.

Instagram: @multiamory_podcast
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Book: Multiamory: Essential Tools for Modern Relationships

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Effy Blue @coacheffyblue
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TRANSCRIPT:

Effy

Welcome to the Curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue. Today, I'm joined by the none other than the full cast of the Multiamory Podcast.

Dedeker

My name is Dedeker Winston, I'm a relationship coach who works with individuals, couples and triads. I'm also a co-host and CO creator of the Multiamory podcast, which is a research backed relationship advice show that centers non traditional relationships.

Emily

My name is Emily Sotelo Matlack. I am one of the CO hosts of the Multiamory podcast and also one of the co authors of Multiamory the book, which is about to come out. I also am very fortunate because I get to travel a lot and do acting and singing. And that's my other job. In addition to being a professional podcaster. At this point,

Jase

I'm Jacelyn grin. I'm one of the CO hosts of the Multiamory podcast, as well as one of the authors of multi Emery essential tools for modern relationships. And I'm also secretly a double agent in the corporate world, trying to make changes from within that world to make non monogamy more acceptable and just alternate relationships in general, doing what I can to support people in that space.

Effy

If you're listening to our show, the chances are, you're listening to Multiamory as well. Jays, Emily and dedica created the Multiamory podcast back in 2014, to raise awareness, provide approachable resources, and combat the stigma faced by people in non traditional relationships. These days, they have hundreds of episodes, and millions of downloads under their belt, and they're surrounded by a rapidly growing community. They're dedicated to offering practical advice and communication tools grounded in the latest relationship research, guest experts and years of professional experience. Most recently, their book of the same name, Multiamory essential tools for modern relationships hit the shelves, they started a podcast when they were triad, and their relationship has evolved over time. So that's why we started. Of course, I know you from the show. It's been going for years, I know that when we first started seeing what we wanted to play around in the in the podcasting space, your show was coming up, you know, as one of the only ones available at the time. So it's been a long time on air, if you will. So thank you very much for all that work that you do. So I'm curious, you, I know that you started the show, because you there wasn't anybody out there talking about relationships, especially sort of non traditional relationships, and you had a sort of a non traditional relationship. I'm curious, can we start from there? Can you tell me a little about your relationship and its evolution over the time?

Jase

Sure, I'll start the story. And we can all tell it together. So from my perspective, and from Emily's the two of us were in a monogamous relationship for a few years. And we ended up opening up that relationship at some point, just kind of with that feeling of, there's gotta be some other way to do this. There must be some other kind of option. But we didn't know the term polyamory. We didn't know anything that we were doing. We just kind of knew that open relationship was a thing. And started exploring that and made a lot of mistakes, but also met a lot of people who suggested resources like books, and podcasts and just kind of taught us things that they knew, which is what led us to the term polyamory and eventually led us to being on OKCupid and then ended up connecting with dedeker. And her partner, who they were already polyamorous.

Dedeker

Yeah, I already been on kind of my own journey of exploring polyamory for a few years at that point, and my living partner went on a date with Emily. And that's how all four of us got connected. Yeah, so

Emily

we were together for quite a while and actually a quad for a while. However, quads are kind of just notoriously unstable. And so therefore, that sort of broke apart after a while, but during that time, the three of us realized we don't know that much about this. At this point. We're interested in learning more are interested in maybe creating a resource for people out there who also may be curious about how they can do polyamorous relationships better. So Jay is actually was the one who was like, why don't we start a podcast and this was very, very early on in the space and 2014. So we were able to do that. And our relationship has taken many different forms. Over that time, the three of us are no longer all in a relationship, Jason dedeker is still together. But I'm actually now in a monogamous relationship and have been for quite a few years. And that was very intentional on my part, and on the part of my partner as well. So it's cool that we've been able to retain our own individual relationships with one another, and also as the group, while still, you know, creating this podcast baby over the last nine years, it's been really a special experience.

Effy

Okay, so I'm a relationship nerd. Like you guys. And I'm curious, I'm digging a little bit more about your relationship, how how it evolved, if that's okay.

Jase

Sure. So I guess I'll start with the fact that we were all in this quad together. So dedeker lived with her partner at the time, and Emily and I live together. And you know, Emily was dating him, and I was dating dedeker. And originally, that's how it was set up. Right? Where sort of you died? A

Emily

couple relationships? Yeah,

Jase

yeah, kind of overlapped like that. And then, over time, I think a few things happened. One would be that Emily and dedeker started to, you know, see if there was a romantic relationship there between the two of them. Meanwhile, I think things started started becoming challenging. And we definitely had some issues with communication and expectations and all sorts of things regarding Decker's partner at the time. Well, what's

Dedeker

interesting, when I think back on it now is Yes, back then there were some resources, it wasn't a totally barren landscape, you know, we'd all read the ethical slut. And, you know, the classic instance of done, yeah, you know, we'd read those classics. But I think about how now if I was in a quad, where there was some drama, there was some tension, there are some issues, I would at least be able to Google, you know, being in a polyamorous quad, or, you know, resources for being in a group relationship, or, or even even resources for being in a triad. And I don't think at that time that even existed, like anything even that specific existed. Now do I think that would have like, totally saved the situation? Maybe not necessarily. But it is funny to think about how the landscape has shifted so much, and how I'm so grateful that there's at least a lot more people, whether they're educators, or people who are creating content, but just like people who are just open about their lives, and what makes it work, and what doesn't make it work, right. And of course, I mean, we didn't have another quad, or even triad role model to look to really, like we were just sort of in the middle of the ocean, just swimming around trying to figure it out on our own, you know,

Effy

I totally get that. And I know that I love that these days, we have so many more options in terms of role models, and people talking about it, and, and all that it also there's a lot of ground being covered on intersectionality, and all that kind of stuff. So I love that all those resources are available now. And there weren't that many back then. And I'm also curious, even before that, how did you arrive at non monogamy like, what were you you were in monogamous relationships? What were the impetus for you to go, Hey, this is not working out? We think there is something different out there. And can you can you speak a little bit about that?

Dedeker

Yeah. So the way that I came to, I think was somewhat different from how Jason Emily came to it. You know, just for a quick overview of my background, I was raised, very conservative, evangelical Christian. So my upbringing had a lot of very different stories around what relationships should be what sex should be, or shouldn't be, you know, so I was raised definitely with this extremely traditional mindset around relationships and yet still, you know, right out the gate my very first quote unquote, adult relationship, you know, when I was a teenager almost immediately had that experience of Oh, wow, I've met someone I've, I've gotten feelings for someone or in an exclusive relationship, and oh, no, now I suddenly have a crush on somebody else, but like, but I still like the person I'm in the relationship with, but I'm really interested in this person. Oh, no. The church never told me what to do in this situation. And Disney movies never told me what to do in this situation. I was always taught that if this situation happens if you're having feelings for someone you're not in a relationship with like, either it means the relationships bad or it means that you're bad in some way. And so that was sort of the weird narrative that I picked up and ran with through most of my formative teenage years into my early 20s was like this keeps happening like I I somehow seem to be broken in some way and that I have the capacity to be attracted to more than one person at once. And so what does that mean? How do I deal with that doesn't mean that I'm broken in some some way. And then it wasn't until my early 20s, that when I was describing this constant cycle that happened to me to my best friend, he was the one who suggested Have you thought about ever trying an open relationship. And I was a little bit offended at the suggestion because I have this association that an open relationship is for someone who's a sex addict, or someone who's not actually committed to their partner or not actually in love with their partner. It's all only for casual dating, right. But then I still went home. And again, there was just enough resources online that I could still do some preliminary internet searches for an open relationship and see what was out there and like, find some old Live Journal entries and some dusty corner of the internet and like, start to get that sense of, oh, people have been doing this. That was how I got introduced to the term polyamory, right? You know, people have been doing this for a while. And people are doing this in a way that's ethical and consensual, and everyone's actually happy. And it just blew the doors off of my reality. And so for me, that was the first impetus to go really hard into finding every single book that I could find, right, and like scrubbing the internet for every single resource that I could find. And you know, my first crack at it, because I was in a monogamous relationship at the time, and we opened up, you know, my first attempt at it went horrible, because we were in our early 20s. And we were bad at communicating. We didn't know what we actually wanted out of this. And so that relationship ended up imploding about six months later. But for me, the key turning point was, after I got to the end of that really painful, period, I didn't think to myself, ooh, failed experiment, let's go back to monogamy like what I thought to myself was like, Wow, that really sucked. And that was really hard. And I know, there has to be a way to do this better, because I still felt more like myself than I ever had in relationship. And so I think for me, that was not only the affirmation of like, okay, non monogamy is a choice for me. But also learning more about how to do non monogamy and relationships better, was the track that I ended up on, which, you know, led me to, to this podcast. So that was my origin story.

Effy

Beautiful. Yeah. So many of those things resonate with me. Yeah, I'm curious about the

Jase

others. Sure, yeah, I'll go. So for me, my upbringing was similar to debt occurs in terms of being raised Christian and being very much in that community. But I think, a slightly different flavor of Christianity, but still, with all that baggage about this is how sex should be that monogamy is the only option, you know, all those sorts of things. However, for me, kind of the initial seeds of dissent were in the fact that I had, I guess, he wasn't technically an uncle, but sort of like a good friend of my dad, who is gay. And that I just thought was super cool. He was like a dealer in Vegas, and you know, super cool guy, right? would teach like card tricks and stuff. And so I was like, Well, okay, you know, I'd kind of been brought up that that was bad that you know, that being gay is bad, and that God doesn't like it. And so I'm like, but, but this guy's cool. And then I started learning, like, how there's more like celebrities and stuff out there that are gay, that are cool. So like, something doesn't add up here. That doesn't make sense. Like, there's this kind of something. So that kind of started those initial seeds of trying to figure out what there was. And that ended up basically leading to me gradually moving away from Christianity. But also, during college, I read the book Stranger in a Strange Land, which I will say, doesn't really hold up. To be honest, it does not hold up today in terms of how he writes about gender and women and stuff like that. But it was a hugely transformative book for me, because I think being written in the 50s, or whatever, it kind of spoke to that conservative side of me that had been, you know, taught as a Christian about how things work, and then questioned at all, and in the book, basically, the main character kind of learns about separating jealousy and love and not associating Oh, if I'm jealous, that means I love someone, and instead saying, Oh, if I love someone, why would I be upset about anything that made them happy, even if that thing was with somebody else? And for me, it was, and I bring it up, just because it was that like, all of a sudden, my complete mindset on jealousy changed, like overnight, basically, like, whatever day I read that part of the book, just it changed completely. And so from there, you know, over the next several years, I still didn't think that open relationships or polyamory or anything was an option. I didn't even really know that was a thing people could do. But it was more of that, like, gosh, if only I could live in a sci fi world like this where that's possible. That would be cool. And over the years, experimented a little bit with, you know, different partners through the years with, you know, little bits of of group sex or some kind of open relationship type things over time or maybe just trying to do Like there was a period where I was casually dating a couple different people, but they didn't know about each other. And I was trying to be like, well feel like they should know about each other. And I don't want to hide that fact. And so I was kind of like playing with the seeds of polyamory, but without knowing what I was doing, and probably not doing a great job of it. And so for me, later discovering it for real, you know, through my relationship with Emily, and then with dedeker. Was that like, oh, wow, this is something that I feel like I've been looking for, or wished or possible, and now it seems like it actually is. And so for me, it was similar to dedeker of like, wow, I think I finally found this thing that's worth working at and trying to figure out

Effy

beautiful am did you and Emily, when you started your relationship was the idea was to be non monogamous from the beginning?

Emily

No, definitely not. I mean, we were monogamous when we started dating for sure. I however, yeah, I think it was interesting. Because I, I grew up very different than Jason dedeker. I grew up as someone who my mother, and my father were in an affair, and they never married and they were not religious at all, I really didn't know my father very well growing up. So I saw like, a non ethical non monogamy from a very young age. And I think I kind of wanted to be the opposite of that as a young person and find a monogamous partner. But I did also have similar things were growing up of having boyfriends, but finding other people that I was still interested in, and wondered like, Well, why couldn't I also have fun with that person, even though I'm in a relationship with someone else. But you know, I think for a very long time, expected my life to go in one direction. And that direction was I'm going to get married eventually. And I'm going to maybe have kids with that person and things along those lines. But yeah, it, it made so much sense when Jason I kind of realized, hey, something isn't exactly working the way that we want it to in this relationship. And it we still have a lot of interests outside of just what our relationship specifically is. And that may lie in meeting other people discovering more things about ourselves. Jason is a little older than dedica, and IR and, you know, I felt like I was quite young at the time and, and still wanted to explore a lot of other things. So So I think it really overall in non monogamy made a lot of sense as Jason I were getting into it. And it just finding dedeker Also, and for me being able to explore my sexuality in a way that I hadn't ever before. Because I knew I think for a very long time, like I was interested in women as well. And I never had really gotten a chance to go there or to experience that. And so I think that that's a part of non monogamy that has been really rewarding for me also is getting to do something along those lines, like explore my bisexuality in a way that I'd never had before.

Dedeker

Yeah, it's interesting that even all three of us had, you know, somewhat different in some ways, somewhat overlapping in some ways that like all of us got this very, like, I would say homophobic upbringing as well. You know, I guess it makes sense with the religious upbringing. But Emily, with your upbringing being very distinctly non religious, that you still absorb some of that,

Emily

I think I still absorbed ei it's, it's just a fact of knowing, you know, hearing so much about the heteronormative track of what relationships are and that that's kind of the right way to be. And, you know, I think that that's changing so much now, which is phenomenal for young people today. But definitely, that's still seeped into my like cultural, you know, over overwhelming over being I guess, and that's kind of too bad that that was the case. But it definitely, it has changed in you know, my relationship with my mom, we've been able to explore that and talk more about you know, that you should change your thinking and update your thinking and things around that too.

Jase

Yeah, I think it's something that the three of us have all noticed is that having the ability to be polyamorous or let go of some of that strict idea of what relationships need to look like, has also opened up that ability to explore our own sexualities more and to experience more things because it's like, it's almost like as soon as you stop holding on really tight to this one idea of how things can look. It opens up a lot of other options because you start to see, oh, maybe I don't feel like I'd want to do you know that I'd want to be with a man in this way. But maybe in this other way, that'd be nice. And then it kind of led to everything else like reevaluating what Sex means and that there's a whole range of experiences that can be sex rather than just this one thing that we're kind of brought up to think that's what sex is. And anything else isn't that and someone raised Christian, I think we especially know because we all have these very clear guidelines of like God says, Don't have sex, but he only looks at this part of your body and not these other ones. So we can do whatever we want there, like that. Rules lawyering that we used to do with God, I think that once you kind of get to let go of some of that, it lets you explore more options and just, I guess, feel more whole as a person in your ability to connect to people and find what works rather than trying to make everything fit into one particular mold.

Effy

Yeah, no, that makes that makes a lot of sense. Actually, shame. Jacqueline isn't here because she also grew up very, very Christian. And she talks about that, in her relationship structures, her sexuality, we even recently did an episode on masturbation because my estimation month and why wouldn't we? And she, you know, she tells the stories of how, when, when she was young, and she was masturbating, she would make these pacts with God, that, you know, she was she was concerned that every time she masturbated, that some, like God was going to come down and like, take her family away. And she was going to wake up next morning, and no one's going to be that and in an effort to stop herself from masturbating, she would you know, she would have this conversation with God saying, like, every time I masturbate, like, take my future children away, in an effort to stop herself first. Yeah, it's like such a dark, you know, she tells you stories on on show, she's such a, you know, a dark place. And she's from where she used to where she is now. It's like a huge journey. And so I'm the opposite. I grew up with no religion, I grew up in a very secular family, where religion wasn't a thing. We just, we didn't really, we didn't really talk about it. And I've got a bunch of memos about everything else. But I never got the memo around sick, like shaman sex, you know, it just didn't. Sure I got it. I just somehow I ignored it. I'm, I'm lucky. So we have these very opposite views of like, where she comes from and where I come from. And when I hear your stories, it's really, it really, really resonates with me. And it's kind of interesting how we've all somehow ended up in the same place, which I, which I also find fascinating. Like, we just found our way to this thing. That makes sense to us. And I'm curious. So we heard about how you came to know monogamy we heard about kind of the evolution of this, this relationship. I'm curious, like, what is the latest update just to sort of complete that story. And so we have an idea of like, where you are today? And then we'll take it from there.

Dedeker

Gosh, well, the latest update is, I mean, for years, what I've been telling people is that, you know, we're for like an emotional like, we're not like the three of us are not in a romantic or sexual relationship together anymore. But there's still a relationship there. Right. And so I always jokingly tell people that we're like this emotionally bonded triad that are co parenting, a podcast baby together, because it is kind of that funny thing where sometimes people will interview me and be like, Oh, what's it like to be running a podcast with your current partner and your ex? And I'm like, I don't know, I just don't think about it in that way. You know, it's like, we have this relationship that in many ways, has grown and evolved and almost become more precious and even better functioning than the days we were like a romantic and sexual triad together. And so, you know, that's kind of been it. It's, it's, it's been this really, really beautiful progression of not just being business partners, and not just being podcast co hosts, but really being chosen family, at the end of the day, you know, like, it's, you know, these two other people are some of like, my most precious relationships ever. So, I don't know if there any other updates to our relationship that I'm missing? Can you all feel fill in for me?

Emily

I know that I call myself more like ambi amorous as well now, because I'm currently in a monogamous relationship. But I know that polyamory if that were back on a tear on the table in a relationship that I could go back to that for sure. I think it is great to have the option to be really intentional in whatever relationship it is that you choose. And that's the thing that people come to together. Or if they realize I think like Jason dedic or that No, I am polyamorous that is the relationship structure that works best for me. And that's the only thing I'm going to do that if you are faced with that option of well, this the only way that you can be in this relationship is if it is monogamous, then that's not something that they are going to do. So I appreciate that we have that different perspective on the show because there are a lot of people who listen to the to our show that are monogamous and I think a lot of the tools that we talk about can be used in any relationship structure you're in.

Jase

Yeah, I'd say overall, that's the one big shift I would Wanna get across is that while we started our show specifically about polyamory, and talking a lot, just from our own personal experience with our relationship together, that the podcast has very much changed over the years, kind of gradually over the past nine years to be a one. That's a podcast show that's about research based relationship advice. And that talks about non traditional relationships like polyamory and various kinds of non monogamy, but talks about that, in a very frank, just normal way, as in this is just a normal way people do relationships. But the focus is more on, you know, what can we learn about relationships? How can we all do relationships better, no matter what they are, and that's not just non monogamy and monogamy. But that's also our relationships with our friends and our co workers and our family members, and all of that, because over the years of researching, and putting on this show, we've just seen that relationships are relationships, and that we, as a society have kind of artificially put these boxes around, oh, well, this one has sex in it. So therefore, everything needs to be treated differently. We have all this different lore, all this different belief and meaning we put on it. And then these other ones that are not that are all different, and it's just not true. And it actually comes to how we as humans, connect to each other and consider each other important, and then how we communicate about that and make that a good relationships. I think that's kind of to finish the story about the show, starting to where it is. Now. That's, that's probably the big shift there.

Effy

Nice. Beautiful. So what have been the highlights, like both in terms of your journey within your relationship, and also doing this podcast for nine years? I know that we are on our seventh year, actually this month. So we were actually asking this question to ourselves, like what it's been a crazy journey, but not with the Podcast, the podcast has been three years and then curious Fox, as a community in New York know that the whole journey is about seven years. And we were actually just reflecting on ourselves going what have been the highlights and what have been the biggest challenges. So I'd love to extend that question to you. I'd love it in like two parts one in terms of your relationship journey, so kind of stumbling into it and trying to figure it out. And then finding a good rhythm and understanding yourselves in the context of relationship structure, be it non monogamous, polyamorous or non monogamous? What has been the highlights? And what have been the challenges? And then I want to ask the same question in your podcasting journey as well. But let's start with the relationship stuff if that's okay,

Dedeker

yeah, I can jump in to get that started. As far as the relationship stuff, oh, man, well, I don't know if anyone else experienced this, but the pandemic really shook things up. For me, Uh hum. And the rest of the planet, obviously, you know, the pandemic was really challenging. In that, you know, already leading up to the pandemic, for several years, like, I'd had these two long term partners who were living in different countries. And then when the pandemic kicked off, all of a sudden borders are closed and don't have the freedom to travel don't have the freedom to connect in the same way that I was used to. While at the same time, also, working as a relationship coach working with everybody else's relationships that are now suddenly under new circumstances and new pressure, you know, it was a really, really difficult time. And what I actually loved about going through the pandemic was that it really drove home to me the importance, again of like my non romantic, non sexual connections. And in particular, you know, that plays out among the three of us write that I really love. Although the three of us spend, like so much time recording and doing business stuff, and sometimes getting into squabbles, and having to make decisions and just getting so exhausted from working so much, but like we still enjoy actually having the three of us like in person together, having just like hanging out time together, like having that really, really nurturing relationship is really wonderful. And then that really got driven home to me at the beginning of 2022 when I had a big breakup with one of my long term partners that it was like all of these other connections, all of these like deep friendship connections, that like really supported me and really sustain me. So that might be my one of my own, just personal highlights. But I feel like that was one of the lessons that like really got encoded for me going through the pandemic was, again, I guess sort of a more of this like relationship. Anarchists take on not wanting to always default to Oh, my romantic and sexual relationships come first and all things and they're the things that I want to spend the most energy and time and focus on but like all of my varied friendships are also incredibly important and life giving as well. So I think that's the highlight for me, at least in the most recent history as far as like relationship stuff goes.

Effy

That's super interesting to hear. For me, one of the running jokes and the thing that I say a lot is the same advice that goes for your financial investments and your relationships. Diversify, diversify, diversify. Reading. And I think that's what I'm hearing from you so that you know you we need a portfolio of different connections that really sustain us and our well being in our mental health. So it's beautiful hearing that from you. So it was a beautiful highlight. Yeah. What about challenge?

Dedeker

Oh, goodness, okay, challenge with, with the personal relationships, I guess probably, for as much as I've been talking about how like, we have this really wonderful relationship between the three of us that spans across all these different labels and, and formats and things like that. It is a challenge to run a business with people that you love, it is a challenge to carry this responsibility all the time with people that you love, right? It is a challenge where sometimes it is like, oh, let's have hanging out friend time. Oh, wait, no, we're getting distracted. Because we get pulled into work or the opposite. Like, okay, we got to sit down and like hash out this thing. Oh, but we really want to gossip about what happened last weekend. And so we're gonna waste two hours talking about that, you know, I think there's really wonderful benefits to having a project like this with people that you love. And then there's also the challenges as well. So I think I mean, that's the thing for me is always coming back to having to renegotiate having to reevaluate, fortunately, we are really strengthened and bolstered by the fact that we've spent nine years every single week talking about communication and about relationship tools. Right. So we have a lot of tools under our belt that has helped us get through a lot of these challenging situations. And Jason, what would you add to all that?

Emily

Yeah, in terms of just the great things about our relationship, it's been just such a constant through line in my life for so long, you know, I've known Jays since 2011, which is really incredible at this point, just is so much of my adult life has been spent with these two people. And that's a really cool thing, because you do get to know them. So well, and they know you so well. And I think we just got incredibly lucky in terms of finding the right people with the right temperament. And all three of us that were able to kind of sustain this incredibly huge undertaking that we decided to do for some strange reason. But yeah, it's really held up. And it's been a great thing in our lives for so long. I think, for me, the the change between being in a romantic partnership tour to being in a non romantic partnership, really did kind of take years to sort of navigate and really figure out what it was that that was going to look like and knowing like I'm seeing two people that I used to be intimate with being intimate with each other without me and that that has its challenges at times, for sure. And it I think that for the last maybe four or five years that has not arrived to me, and perhaps the same way, like I'm able to look at it more with a little bit more of a conversion, I think, and know that, like I have my own special relationship with these two people is well, it's different than what they have together. But we all still have something really close and meaningful. And it doesn't have to just look one way. And that's a really lovely thing that I think non monogamy in this podcast is time a

Effy

beautiful, Yeah, makes sense.

Jase

Let's see, I would say some highlights. Gosh, I mean, it's hard going third, right? Because I think that I want to go all the things that the two of them have said already. Let's see, as far as highlights go. I think for me, it's just when I think about the fact that I've gotten to have some really amazing relationships over the last, you know, 10 years, or however long where I can think back and go, Wow, gosh, yeah, I kind of got into this new music or got into this new hobby because of this relationship I was in who showed me that thing. Or maybe it's like, oh, this is a person we went to, you know, dungeons or play parties with. And that's not something I probably would have done on my own. Wow, that's so cool that I got to learn that and have that experience. And I think that's, that's a normal part of dating, we get to learn things from the people we connect with. And at the same time, I get to say, Wow, dedeker and I are celebrating our 10 year anniversary later this year, I have something that's so long and so stable like that, and then to also say, and I have this relationship with Emily, that's been this very, you know, intentionally crafted, very loving and caring relationship where we've gotten to, you know, encourage each other's growth. And, you know, see things change over time. I think both of us are very different people than we were back in 2011 when we met. And I think that's that's been this really positive, great experience. And so getting to have all of that at the same time instead of having to live several different lifetimes in order to get all those experiences and I think is a pretty amazing highlight of being able to do polyamory and non monogamy and just opening up the way I think about relationships. As far as challenges go, I'll you know, echo the same things that Emily and DeDecker have said. And then I'll add one that's maybe just a little bit silly. And that's that. And that's it. So I also had a breakup right before the pandemic, actually, and then kind of wasn't really dating at all, you know, during lockdown. And all of that went on a couple dates over the last few years, which have turned into friendships, but not anything more than that. And so that's been been a little challenging kind of being out of that, and getting back into it, but then I'm hitting that thing where to date people who listen to the podcast feels a bit weird, you know, it's kind of that this is a strange power dynamic in one way. And also like, you know a lot about me and, and have that kind of side of the relationship. And I don't know anything about you. It's all kind of weird. And so I'd rather not date someone who listens to the podcast. But as our podcast has grown, I've effectively eliminated a very large portion of the potential people I could date. So I'll just be silly and say that that's the challenge that comes to mind right now. Besides the more serious challenges, I think that Emily and Derek are brought up.

Effy

No, I totally get that. I think I was having a similar struggle in New York, it was hard to get away from the mic, just because my community, my work, everything in the podcast, everything was so wrapped up. And of course, the people that I want to date are people who are into this dynamic. So I was finding so the people that you would they also just know you, but they know you too much. And you don't get to have a fresh, you know, a fresh relationship. So I totally, totally understand that. Now that I am I don't permanently live in New York, that's definitely a highlight. For me. One of the things about becoming a digital nomad or not really no matter, but like the mover, the bouncer, the multi hub life, which is what I call is definitely been one of those, like, ways out, being able to, like meet people that don't know me, I don't know them. Let's start from the beginning. You know, tell me all you know, though, I totally I totally understand that. Beautiful. Okay, so the other big thing, obviously, your relationship that You've nurtured over the years has evolved and grown and sort of really shaped the way that you see the world. But you've kind of made something awesome out of it, which is the podcast. And of course, we have to talk about the podcast. So can you tell me the similarly these eight years?

Emily

Yeah, we're in our ninth year, nine

Jase

years, almost

Effy

nine years, almost nine years? Yeah. I mean, almost a decade, right. A decade of work? I'm curious to I know, Jason, you talked about it evolved over time. And it started about just sort of non monogamy in your own relationship. And over time, it's become a real resource about relationships in general and research backed relationship talk. I'm curious about what are the highlights from that doing something like this, taking these deep dives into relationships and understanding not just only non monogamy, but kind of relationships as a whole? What were the highlights from that? Like, what were your big takeaways, that sort of changed and shaped the way that you think about relationships today?

Jase

Yeah, maybe we can all take this one together. So I would say that, as far as highlights go, it's been the community around the podcast that when we, you know, when we started the podcast, it was originally just us thinking were so interesting, and talking on mic and doing this podcast from like, a pillow for it on one microphone in the bedroom, right? Like, it's very, very casual to humble beginnings. Yeah. And after, I guess, a year or two, when we started our Patreon, and part of that were like, What should we do as a, as a reward for that, and like, oh, let's do a private Facebook group where people can can join and yeah, then they'll want to talk to us, that'll be great. And then when we actually learned is that that was way more popular than we expected. And it was not because people wanted to talk to us, but they wanted to be able to talk to each other. That there's it's so hard to find, I think good quality online spaces where people are supportive of each other. And I think that because ours, you know, has a little bit of a barrier to entry by needing to be a patron and you know, paying a little bit of money each month, it keeps some of the trolls out. And then I think also, they're all people who listen to Multiamory, and so kind of like with the dating thing, where I'm like, yeah, the person I'd probably want to date is the type of person who would listen to a show like Multiamory, so Well, shoot, I kind of screwed myself there. But I think that works out really nicely. For all of the people in that community where it's like, yeah, I want to connect with other people who might like a show like this. Like I want to connect with people who want to be intentional about their relationships, and just seeing how that's grown and kind of taken on this life of its own, that it's almost like we get to observe and be a little bit part of this really cool community rather than at all being centered around us, which I think is so we thought it might be at first.

Dedeker

Yeah, having access to the community means we've gotten to do some amazing things, you know, everything from being able to, you know, go on tour and do live shows and meet people in person and get to see all the different ways that people are living out all their different types of relationships, all the way to being able to do things like almost like little informal focus groups. So as in, you know, we've done some, like, we'll have a Zoom meeting sitting down with like a handful of our listeners and our patrons, just to talk about our radar tool, for instance, like our checking tool, and just getting a sense of, are you using this? How's it going? What are the ways that it's going well, what are the ways where it's challenging, like, have you modified this tool in any way to fit your relationships so that with the tools or the concepts that we introduce on the show, it's not just based on our own personal experience, it's not just just based on the stuff that we research, but we have this sense that like, O 's actually being used in real life ways and being modified and being built upon. And so getting a sense of that has been really, really cool. Again, just like seeing the ways that the community has like, picked up stuff and run with it and made stuff that's like way cooler than we could ever come up with has been amazing. And like something that, you know, if you're creating in a vacuum, or if you're creating in a different medium, you know, sometimes you don't always get that sense of that engagement and interaction with an audience.

Emily

It's so great to meet people in real life who I, you know, work at a restaurant two days a week and have for 10 years, and getting people to come into the restaurant, and then like, tap you on the shoulder and be like, I love your show. And like thank you so much, or, you know, your this episode saved my marriage or whatever, it's really incredible. Hearing that, I mean, I was at the Hollywood Bowl once and somebody like ran across the stadium, and when like, oh, my god, are you Emily from Multiamory. And that was really cool. It just, it's wonderful to get to hear stories of people's relationships being changed in some way, by what we do. And that is just incredibly humbling, and incredible to know that we have the capacity for that kind of change. And I think everybody does, and to be able to enact that and in somebody's life is just a really meaningful, wonderful experience. So I'm glad that our show has evolved and changed over time that it's not just like one group of people that that can be done for. But hopefully, even as we continue to grow, it that just becomes more and more inclusive.

Effy

I love that. I love that. Yes. When you hear the impact, where you get that kind of feedback, when you get a really glimpse into the impact of what you're doing in people's lives. It's definitely like it makes you feel alive. So I completely understand that it's beautiful. It's beautiful. So I know that over the years, as you did the show, you've developed a bunch of tools, right? You know, the communication trifecta, the radar, I, you know, these tools are out there. And I know some of them are sort of developed as a part of this relationship. I know some of the stuff was like adapted from management tools. You know, it was it's beautiful evolution of them, and they are now but cotemporary is now a book. Right? So I love to hear about that. That happened. And tell us a little bit about the book. And also, you know, the tools for those who don't know, there are these tools out there the communication tools that you've sort of developed and put out there and supported it with the podcast by the like handouts. And, you know, it's this great sort of toolbox, when it's been out there. But now it's all compiled into one book. And it's, you know, it's it's been published or it's, it's on the shelves.

Jase

It's coming out on May 23. Yeah, the evolution of the book. Let's see, I guess I'll take a little bit of a step back. And we set as a goal for ourselves years ago, once we hit a certain size for our online community, that we would do something. And we weren't sure what that something was. And so we put out a poll to our audience, saying, What should we do, and we, you know, put out a few different options and book was the one that that one, that's the one that the most people said, I would love a written version of this stuff you talk about. So that was in 2019, we started that process. And we got an agent who was a listener of the show. And we went through several different iterations of the proposal, trying to figure out what the book would be about and eventually where we landed was. There are certain things that we've come up with during the course of the show that we reference over and over and over again. So things like the Triforce of communication like radar, like being chewers, and skewers in terms of how you process things. Talking about boundaries, repair shop is another one. So we have these things that we've created over the years sometimes thinking oh yeah, we're going to create In a tool for this specific thing, and other times, kind of talking about a topic and then realizing, well, we need to talk about this more, we should come back and make a tool out of this. Because this is really important, like boundaries, for example. And what we realize is there's these things we reference over and over again, and that we hear from people that they share with their partners. We have listeners that are therapists who say, I use these tools all the time with my clients, this tool is the one that changed my life, you know, those sorts of things. And we said, Okay, we have the gift of this kind of like, these things have been vetted. For us, we didn't have to just sort of write a book and see what was good in it. It's like, okay, look, we know what's really worked for people, and that we have these many years of us making these things to find, these are the top ones. So let's make that into a book. And so we kind of went through getting the information you could get from the podcast, but adding more examples, more exercises to do at home more ways to make it clearer and easier to understand. Because I know sometimes learning a new tool, just listening to it in an hour long podcast, it's a little harder for that to stick unless you take a lot of notes and listen over and over again. And so I know for myself, having something in written form makes it a lot easier to learn. And I think that's why so many of our listeners were like, make a book, gosh, make a book already. And so it's been a long journey to get here. But that's basically the idea is to take some of those fundamental tools and really explore them and show you know, how can we explain this tool in the most understandable way, the most useful way. And that's the idea is it's like a toolkit where you can go and pick and choose and say, You know what, let's go revisit this chapter. Because that's when we need to talk about rather than something that has to be read straight through, and that it's for anybody in any type of relationship. We've even heard from some people who use the tools in their professional relationships, like at our business, we do radar every month, we do it in our romantic relationships, too. But we also do it in our business relationships. So it really is for any kind of relationship. And we try to make that clear in the book of that this isn't just for one particular way of doing relationships.

Dedeker

Yeah, it's such a really beautiful and exciting time to have, you know, some of the best parts of the podcast in book form, again, to make it more accessible to make it more giftable. To make so people can highlight it and write notes, and dog, euro and all those things. And it was also such an interesting experience being able to co write together as well, where Yeah, I mean, we're fortunate in that we've produced the podcast together. And we've been working together for so many years, and so have a lot of tools and a lot of good connection. But still a new, a wholly new challenge to be writing together as well, you know, to be co authoring together, but it was all for the better. You know, it was like, so good to be able to have two co authors whose feedback I knew that I could trust, like, even at times, like if I disagreed with it, or whether I agreed with it or whatever. But just knowing that like we all had each other's back in that way. So just like super grateful even to have the experience and then also to be able to share it with the world as well.

Jase

Beautiful. Yeah, yeah, it's I just wanted to jump in, it was funny that our editor for the book actually told us, she's like, I've never had more than two authors write a book together. So I wasn't sure how this would go. But this has been way easier than I expected. Three of you are able to write together really well. So that was also encouraging to say, Okay, this, this wasn't for nothing. All this all this research and time we've spent learning how to communicate and figuring things out together.

Emily

Yeah, the process took, I think, less time than we imagined that it might we were worried a couple of times that is this not going to work out the way that we wanted it to, but then it ended up being okay. And so I am just really excited to get it out there in the world and get feedback from people and see, you know, what they think of it being in written form. And I hope that using like the homework assignments, for example, that will even instill more of an understanding of a particular tool and enable them to use it in their own life, even more easily than if they had just listened to an episode.

Effy

I know this would be hard, it's like picking your favorite child. But I can't I can't help I asked if you were going to share one tool if you just like, bumped into somebody in a bus stop. And they, you know, just somehow mentioned they were, you know, mid to a relationship situation and you were going to just tell them one tool that you think is gonna, like just help or change or cause a shift. What would what would that that tool be?

Emily

The first tool we talked about in the book and one that I think is so beneficial and so easy to use is the Triforce of communication. And it's really just letting people know what it is that you want out of a conversation and how Have them be able to give that to you. I think so often in conversations, especially if we're in conflict, or if we're in turmoil, a partner may just jump immediately into, I want to fix the problem. I want to give you advice, but that's not always what we need. And so it's literally just being able to say like, Hey, Triforce, number one, I'm just getting something off my chest, I'm just letting you know, about a particular thing that's happening, this is why I seem a little down or I seem a little out of it, I'm just letting you know, like, where I'm at Triforce. Number two is, hey, I really want some love and some understanding, maybe a poor baby, maybe just some cuddles, I just am going to tell you and I want you, you know, to love and understand Bay. That's it. And then Triforce number three is finally getting into that advice that let's problem solve here. Let's work together and be collaborative. But you're asking for that, as opposed to a partner just automatically giving that to you. And you don't necessarily need to use the words Triforce, one, two or three, you can just be able to medic communicate, which is something we talk about all over the book over and over again. But really just say to your partner, this is what I need, can you make sure that we do that and that you give that to me and I can give that to you in in a conversation that you have where you need something from me,

Effy

I love that I think that's something that has actually changed my relationship with Jacqueline, I'm a problem solver. I'm a natural problem solver. I'm the happiest when I'm solving problems. And I mean all sorts of problems. When I was little, I liked puzzles, you know, I'm just my brain loves a problem. And I have a million different ways to solve them. And the more I love the person, the more I want to give them my my solution, my solution finding brain. And it's definitely something that that Jacqueline and I have learned over time as friends and collaborators creative collaborators is to be able to say, I'm going to share this with you and I just need you to listen or I'm going to share this with you, I just needed you my cheerleader, or I'm going to share this with you because I need that brain of yours, you know, and vice versa. So I you know that I love that tool. I love that that's out there. Because I think it really makes a difference in the communication in the fiber of the communication, not even what you're saying. But just the way you arriving in a conversation, any kind of dialogue. So I love love, love that love that tool. And I totally get why it's your number one only is it the same for the rest of you? Or do you have other number ones? Jason adecuada? Do you have other favorites?

Dedeker

Oh, gosh, okay, well, I will sandwich myself in the middle of here to say that, I think if you put me in the bus stop scenario, because I think my favorite tool changes on the context. But if I'm thinking about the bus stop scenario of a stranger comes up to me and explains I'm having these relationship issues, what would you recommend? I think my number one tool is actually a tool that that's not original to us. But we have riffs on many, many times. And we do cover it in the book. And it's just the acronym halt. And halt originally came out of actually addiction recovery spaces. And it was this idea of, you know, thinking about the times that you're most likely to relapse. And so halt stands for Hungry, Angry, Lonely or Tired. And many people have found that, oh, this applies not just to relapses, but also, let's say relapses in communication habits, right? Like the times that were most likely to not be communicating our best. Now we rift on that. And we added, you know, it's not just about when you're hungry, angry, Angry, Lonely or Tired. But also if you're drinking, if you're sick, if you're horny sometimes. And so we kind of expanded it into like halter disease as a, you know, as the reminder that all of these things can be influencing factors that can make you make maybe not the best communication decisions in the moment. And so for me, I do feel like some of relationship 101 is, if you're in any of these states, can you take a 20 minute break or a 25 minute break, go take care of what you need to do go let your body come back to some kind of physiological calm, and then come back to the conversation. So for me, again, a total stranger busstop situation, I think that's the one that I would whip out,

Jase

gosh, see, I feel like I need to get a vibe of what this person is going through in their relationship in this short bus stop conversation, right? Because I would agree with Emily that I think Triforce is usually where I'd start with people. Because I think part of it is that it's something you can apply anywhere, like Emily said, and the other person doesn't have to know about the tool for it to work, right that even if someone comes to you and says something, if you're aware of the Triforce you could ask them. Are you looking for advice right now? Or do you just want some encouragement? Or maybe you could just say I'm gonna start with Triforce too, and just kind of give some sympathy or some encouragement or whatever is necessary. And then maybe ask, Are you are you looking for advice and problem solving to or how are you feeling? Just to even know that that's a question to ask because I find with the Triforce It's one of those things that once you have learned it and have used it a little bit, you see it everywhere. Like anytime you see your friends bickering, or your you know, your friends in their relationships, kind of getting on each other's nerves or getting short with each other, I would say 90% of the time, I'm looking at it going, Look, I don't want to butt in, but like, gosh, I see that one person's very clearly wanting some sympathy. And this other person's trying to give them answers. And the person who wanted sympathy is getting frustrated. And the person giving answers is getting frustrated, because they're not listening to their answers. And it's just this whole cycle, I just see it. So orphans, I do love starting with that one. But I would say if this person at the bus stop is someone who is in a relationship with with another person who seems like they're also willing to put some effort into that relationship and be more intentional, then probably radar, which is the last of the tools. So try forces the first and radar as the last in the book, that radar is our regular monthly relationship check in that, I think has been hugely transformative in my own relationship. And clearly from a lot of our listeners who've talked to us about how that's really changed the way they approach their relationships. But that one does involve, you know, both people in that relationship, whatever kind of relationship it is, then both need to be on board and willing to commit to this regular thing, because part of what makes it so powerful, is that it's regular. It allows you to continue to evolve and grow and tweak things together to make your relationship as awesome as it can be. Rather than waiting till everything sucks to have a relationship check in like this one, you get to celebrate the good stuff, as well as work on the things that are challenging. And I think that's a big shift from how a lot of us are taught to have you no relationship talks.

Effy

For sure, absolutely. I also find things like regular check ins like that, especially if you're arriving with some sort of a structure and I'm familiar with radar, it's a great structure to, to arrive with. And if you're taking notes over time, you also getting this beautiful sort of chronicle of your relationship as well. He doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be like written out notes. But if you've been doing it for a while, and you look back, and you know, you keep notes of it, it's just like a beautiful chronicle of like, where you've been the ups and the downs. And what are the sort of the through threads of like this, this always works, or this, we just we seem to suck at, you know, this thing is coming back, then I like the idea of that as well, I think is great for having a cadence. So here's a place that we're going to talk about this. So things don't build up and you don't get this anxiety of like, I'm not going to be heard, I'm not going to be seen or when are we going to talk about this, there's never a good time, you know that there is a time set and a place that's dedicated to that. And it's great for ongoing maintenance and kind of having that that plays. And over time, I think it just makes for a beautiful record of like where you've been and being able to look back at that as well. Great self reflection tool. So yes, I see I see the radar as well. Yeah, all of these tools are awesome. Whoever this bus was, so person is very giving great advice. It's gotta be good. Beautiful. So I want to thank you truly, thank you for taking your time for coming here as a team, I'm sharing about your podcast, your relationship and your upcoming book, and the tools that you share there. Also, you guys have been in the podcasting space for a long time. And it's something that that we feel like you've led the way like this is on the first content out there. And we're kind of, you know, putting out what we can do as well. So I really, it was nice to meet you in person and sort of hear from you in person as well. So I really appreciate your time, your effort you showing up here. And I wish you the best of luck with the podcasts and the book.

Emily

Thank you so much.

Dedeker

Thank you so much. Okay, yeah, thank you for wonderful questions for great conversation. And also thank you for the work that you're doing in this as well. It takes all of us.

Effy

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. To connect with Jace, Emily and Dedeker jump on Instagram at Multiamory underscore podcast, and also Tik Tok and Twitter. At Multiamory, definitely check out their book Multiamory essential tool to model relationships available at your local bookstore, including the curious Fox bookstore at we are curious fox.com forward slash reading list. If you would like to listen to more episodes about non monogamy and communication, check out the new episode drop email from curious Fox in your inbox where you will find show notes links mentioned in the show, along with other episodes suggestions. If you're not getting those you are missing out. So jump on our website. We are curious boxes.com and sign up for our newsletter. And of course, while you're there, check out all the blog posts and resources and reading lists and recommendations and more. If you want to weigh in on the topic and connect with other foxy listeners Head to facebook and join our Facebook group. As we are curious Fox says, If you find our episodes interesting and helpful, please share our podcasts with a friend. quickly read the show, leave a comment and subscribe on Apple podcast, or connect with the show wherever you're listening. This will take a few seconds of your time, but it will have a huge impact on us to support the show. Join us on Patreon, as we are curious foxes. While you'll find many episodes, podcasts, extras, and over 50 videos from educated led workshops, go to patreon.com forward slash we are curious foxes. And let us know that you're listening by sharing your comment story or question by emailing us or sending us a voice memo to listening at we are curious foxes.com This episode is produced by Effy Blue with help from Yağmur Erkişi. Our editor is Nina Pollock, who co parents our podcast baby with us. Our intro music is composed by Dev Saha. We are so grateful for that work, and we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends. Curious Fox Podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic. We solely aim to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends.

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