Ep 166: Release The Rainbow, Coming Out in Adulthood
Beautiful illustration by @morelaaand
What happens when you discover your sexual orientation later in life? How can you embrace a new identity when you have already established one? What does it mean to be queer?
In this revisited oldie, Jacqueline goes galavanting through the NY lesbian bar scene for her birthday with her partner, making up for some classic lesbian experiences that she never got to have. Effy and Jacqueline celebrate Pride month by exploring experiences of coming out later in life, discuss what it means to be queer, and explore the nuance of why they identify the way they do.
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Effy Blue @coacheffyblue
Jacqueline Misla @jacquelinemisla
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TRANSCRIPT:
Jacqueline
Welcome to the curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex and relationships. My name is Jacqueline Mislaa.
Alright, so we are Are we are we officially galavanting now? Yes, so we have the Galavan has begun.
Last week was my birthday. And in honor of both me and pride, my partner and I were galavanting around the village in New York City. And after some pizza and cocktails, we set out on our first destination of the evening,
we are galavanting towards cubbyhole. And I turned 42 yesterday, and this is gonna be my first time at coffee all. And you have visited 42 times. I mean, I
Alexis
feel like I'm gonna come home like 42 years.
Jacqueline
Because you would promise yourself you would not be old and going to
Alexis
be I don't want to be like the mayor of coming.
Jacqueline
And just be
Alexis
I was in my early 20s, I would go there. And that was what I thought was an older woman, probably in retrospect, was in her early. I was like, wow, I was like, that's different to see. And they were like, oh, yeah, that's the mayor of Cubby. And I was like, okay, and I was like, I'm never gonna be that.
Jacqueline
And yet, here I am working. But that's because I've asked you to go would you go without me? Would you have gone otherwise?
Alexis
Only if somebody like asked me to go, yes. Somebody was like, Hey, you want to go? But I would go but like, grudgingly, like, I'm actually wondering how my face is gonna look.
Jacqueline
There fewer than 25 lesbian bars in the United States, and only three in New York City, gingers in Brooklyn and Henrietta Hudson and cubbyhole in the West Village. I asked her to take me there because even though cubbyhole was born only a few years after I was, I've never been there. She on the other hand, went to the bar often when she was in her 20s. But there
Alexis
was a time that I do go to coffee. And I met some girl. And she I like introduce myself, whatever. And she goes, Oh, so you're Alexis. And I was like, No. I was like, what? And she was like, Oh, I've heard about you. And I was like, I don't even know. I don't even know. I have no idea. And I was just like, What the fuck, but it was kind of like flattering. And I was like, Yo, my name is just, I just hope it was like, good.
Jacqueline
Like, what happened after she said, I heard about you. Is she drawn to you? Or was she was like, Oh, I gotta avoid.
Alexis
I honestly, I probably felt you're like
Unknown Speaker
I slept with her.
Alexis
No, I think I was trying to sleep with her. And she was like your Alexis and I was like I've been made. Made.
Jacqueline
I didn't come out until I was in my 30s. That is when I finally realized that my attraction to women went beyond simply thinking that they were beautiful and charming, but that I wanted to kiss them, sleep with them, and be in relationship with women. This realization was a challenge, due to the fact that I was married to a man in a monogamous relationship. And I spent my waking hours either at work or at home with my husband and our daughter. And I won't bore you with the details of what came next because there are plenty of other episodes that unpack the aftermath of that realization, which came alongside the recognition that I was, and I've always been polyamorous by nature. Needless to say, it was the first time that I had to take a hard look at the life that I had built, and reckon with why that life did not honor all of me. It's not the only time that I've been forced to reevaluate my life and determine what needed to shift in order to honor my evolution. But it was the first and one of the most significant realizations of my life. And I was speaking to a friend recently who is going through a divorce. And she also started to date women and explore non monogamy and she said that she thinks that lesbianism is the new midlife crisis. While she's joking of course, it's true that there are some cultural shifts that are taking place. And I'm not just seeing this amongst my friends. My tick tock FYP is filled with sis women We thought that they were straight until they landed on lesbian tic toc. And there are tons of articles about how people and relationships did not come out of COVID the same way that they went in. In my opinion, three things have happened to produce this reckoning. First, quarantine and isolation had us all pause, reflect and reevaluate in a way that our busy lives did not allow before. It was easier to ignore that inner ache that was telling you that something was missing when you filled your day with meetings and errands and the gym and family gatherings and social events. But the stillness forced upon us by COVID made a lot of people finally confront their deep knowing and listen to the parts of themselves that they had ignored. Second, seen Gen Z, push back on every social norm, and fully embrace gender fluidity, relationship anarchy, and prioritizing life before work has been a shock to the system for Gen X and millennials who didn't realize that there was another way to be. We didn't know that we were allowed to do that. And frankly, when we were growing up, we weren't watching other people explore options for go marriage and kids and create more unique, intentional lives. It's creating a sense of possibility that not a lot of us had seen before. Third, the me to movement, stripping of reproductive rights and shifts in political climate have made women confront the narrative around the role that women play in the world and recognize the life choices that we've made based on the cultural norms that we've been soaked in. Many of us disembodied ourselves from our sexuality, because we were trained to repress it. And now, we no longer want to be tamed. Sis women are certainly not the only ones who are coming to terms with their sexuality and identity. Later in life. Effie and I have had conversations with tons of gay, trans bisexual, asexual, non monogamous people who did not explore, reveal or accept those parts of themselves until they were in their 30s 40s 50s or 60s, people with established lives, partnerships, families careers, who had to reckon with what honoring that truth would mean for their lives. It's one thing to build a life and relationships that allow for choice and evolution. It's quite another to have to dismantle the life and relationships that you've built, in order to build something new. How do you evolve without losing your marriage or your family or your social group, there's fear of being judged or alienated, a fear jeopardizing the life that you've created for some unknown alternate path. And I remember that moment. So clearly, the moment when I knew that I couldn't ignore the parts of myself anymore, and was willing to risk losing some of what I created in order not to lose myself. It felt like suffocation and terror, and anticipation, and possibility, and resentment, and regret, and relief, guilt and curiosity, and hope. It was the moment when I was finally ready to trade my mask for a mirror. And a lot has changed since that moment. But I still confront those feelings pretty regularly. I still am learning to accept the different pieces of myself and trying to figure out how those pieces can fit into my life or how my life has to shift to fit all of me. And all of this is particularly acute during pride month. Every June since my mid 30s has been a reminder of all that I missed by not coming out earlier, the parties and hookups in the bathroom bar, the wild nights and one night stands, the experiences and mistakes that folks get to make in their 20s I missed it. I got into a relationship with my ex husband in college with my wife shortly after my husband and I separated and then got into another relationship with my partner shortly after my wife and I opened up and I started dating. So now I'm 42 and I'm trying to capture some of what I missed at 22 Which brings us back to Covey. So I asked why
don't go back you said because you have a lot of bad decisions a lot of sleeping with people.
Alexis
Yeah, a lot of bad decision. A lot of just I don't know what a seeking behavior on my part. So it's just I'm in like a different place now. I guess it'll be interesting. Like, since I'm not doing that seeking behavior anymore. Like what it would be like, but I honestly just feel like that would kind of be like outnumbered by like, a bunch of 20 Somethings you know, it wasn't fun. Um, yeah, I feel like I always had a good time at companies.
Jacqueline
I hear you saying reflecting back bad choices, lots of sex because when I saw those things, I never had that period. So you like got it out of your system and are like, I don't need to revisit that. But I never was there and The first place
Alexis
I mean, not really going to be their second.
Jacqueline
But that's what I mean. But I feel like I missed out on something.
Alexis
I mean, yes, that that couldn't be the case.
Jacqueline
I missed out on all the link. Like I didn't realize that like girls, all the girls flirting that could have happened. I mean,
Alexis
the girl shirt and can still happen. But the thing with you know, places like cubby Is that like the demographic can be like really young.
Jacqueline
Yeah, that's true.
Alexis
Whereas Stonewall more of a mixture, as far as like,
Jacqueline
yes. All right, well, we're gonna go to coffee because it is on my list. My lesbian bucket list is Yeah, and then we'll go to stop. Okay.
When we come back, we're gonna go back in time to revisit a conversation between Fe and AI, about what it means to come out later in life. And the three things that we can all do to release the external messages and internal fear that are holding us back from being who we truly are. Stay tuned.
Effy
folksy friends, it is time for some audience participation. We have three fun, quick and easy ways for you to be involved with Jacqueline me in the podcast, and help us challenge the status quo in love, sex and relationships. First, we're doing a call for your funny sex stories. Back in episode 153 Jason Silva and I had a great laugh about her attempts to talk dirty while looking at with people in her travels around the world. And her hilarious miscommunication during one steamy encounter in Spain. You reached out to us to say you love that story, and wanted to hear more sexy mishaps. So here's your chance to be on the show. Get your Voice Memo app and record your funny sexy story and send it to us to listening at we are curious voxels.com And you don't need to include your name if you don't want to.
Jacqueline
Second in my four and a half minutes of spare time I opened an Etsy shop. It's a place for me to create products that I want to wear and use from bags for femme lesbians and bisexuals who want to make it very clear that we are not just allies, to shirts that declare that I'm with him and her to tote bags that proclaim that I've got 99 problems, and white hetero mono normative patriarchy is basically all of them. The Etsy shop is filled with fun pieces, each designed to help us challenge the status quo and celebrate the beauty of pride. Use code podcast to get 10% off through the end of July. And if you're in the US get free shipping straight to your door, visit the roots and wings gallery on Etsy or find the link in our show notes or in my Instagram bio.
Effy
Finally, one huge way that you can support the podcast is by connecting with the show on your favorite podcast app. This can be a hot favorite or a Follow button. Also, reading the show and leaving a review on Apple Spotify or wherever you listen. We don't have advertisers or sponsors, so we rely on our community of listeners to spread the word. If you enjoy the show, or if any of the episodes have meant something to you write a quick review as soon as this episode is over.
Jacqueline
Remember that the best way to stay contact with us is via our newsletter, where you get new episodes, drop emails, monthly digest and themed emails, where we curate and share all of our episodes about opening up jealousy, sex and more. Jump on our website. We are curious foxes.com and sign up for our newsletter. And while you're there, check out all the blog posts, resources, reading lists, recommendations, and so much more. Welcome back. So a few years ago, if you and I sat down to swap pride stories and talk about how we were each grappling with coming to terms with who you are in the midst of many options and labels and consequences of shifting our understanding of ourselves as we get older. For me, that was coming out later in life. And for Fe it was about understanding if and where she fit into the umbrella term of queer. We talk about three phases that we experienced, letting go of the external expectations that defined who we're supposed to be and the internal fear and doubts that keeps us silent. We introducing ourselves to the people in our lives, and finding community to support us on our journey so that we don't fumble and celebrate alone. The conversation starts with Effie talking about the first time that she participated in Pride celebrations in New York City. Enjoy.
Effy
Yes, yes. So my first notable experience in New York City when I moved here a decade ago was pride.
Jacqueline
Huh, what an introduction.
Effy
Right? Right, because I arrived we're still reading you, like, um, ya know that that would have been cute, but no it will I arrived in New York City in 2010. I celebrated my birthday, my 30th birthday. And then we plunged into a snowy, cold New York winter where I spend most of my time trying to wrap my head around my corporate job at the time and new city trying to get the office set up and everything else. And then as sort of the winter pass, and I got settled and spring was here, I managed to make some friends. And one of them a dear, dear friend of mine, his name is Patrick. He's still a great friend of mine. Somebody I care deeply invited me to march at pride with his church. So the church that I got to march with is St. Francis Xavier's, the priests are all Jesuit. And they feed 1000, homeless every Sunday in the basement Hall for many, many, many years. And yeah, a good friend of mine been attending there for years super LGBTQI, friendly, really nice folk, I got to meet them. I'm not religious in any way, shape, or form. We talked about this a lot in previous episodes. It's such a wonderfully contrast experience to be marching at a pride march with the church. At the time, I knew what pride was. But I hadn't seen the Pride celebrations that happens in the city. I knew what it was. I've seen it on TV. I just hadn't fathom the size, the extent the joy, the exuberance, the diversity, the sheer mass of people that pride brings out. And I at the time I you know, I wasn't wearing I'm here today, I was what I call a seeker, which a lot of our listeners are, I was a seeker, I knew that what I had looked good for me, but didn't feel good for me. I was struggling with my identity. I was struggling with my lifestyle. I was ticking all the mainstream boxes, but wasn't feeling great. And I was just like, so focused on work. That's all I would think about all I would do, I'd really identified with the job that I was doing. And pride was that moment for me that I saw a glimpse of something that I was seeking. It wasn't like clear vision. I didn't have this like epiphany, but I was like, Oh, okay. Like there are masses of people here who are making different lifestyle choices. They are stepping away from the status quo, and they are living their best lives and they're celebrating and there's something here that maybe I don't need to cling so hard to what I know is like, right, you know, in air quotes, so it was definitely it was definitely like, a moment to mark. And that was the Pride March of 2011. That made me decide that I should stay in the city and check it out for a while.
Jacqueline
Yeah, I mean, if that. That was your year, like welcome into the Europe but a beautiful welcome.
Effy
Yes, I felt welcome.
Jacqueline
Yeah, that sounds beautiful. So I've been going to pry a group in New York City been going to pride march for almost two decades. And I would go every year as an ally to be a part of the energy and the experience of the music and the color. And to infuriate and to celebrate amongst the 1000s of other folks who congregated across Manhattan, in everything from jeans to G strings. And I remember the heartbreak that it felt like in our collective chests after the murders of gay and lesbian and trans citizens and advocates. I remember the electricity that was in the air after gay marriage became a federal rights. Yeah, I would go with friends. I went with my ex husband, we went with my daughter and pride march to Pride March was not new for me. Until it was. I was in my early 30s In my first same sex relationship with my now wife, and suddenly, it felt like the colors of the rainbow in the flag represented me. And the rebellion at Stonewall meant that now I could walk in that parade holding her hand. I've attended the march in the parade ever since and have marched in it and well, until COVID hit but with the growing awareness that it felt like I was late to the party, like late to the struggle, and I know I'm not the only one I know for those of us who are, you know, late to lesbian delayed gay tardy to trans. We, we may feel like we have a lot to learn. And of course I'm joking, right because whenever whenever you're whenever with any of us are Our truth aligns with who you are. That is the right time. And sometimes those of us who came out later in life, we feel like we are at a disadvantage for entering into this awareness in this courage in this exploration in this truth later in life.
Effy
Yeah, people often talk about the coming up process when you're a kid, right? You're a kid, you're a teenager, maybe in your 20s. But when you're in your 30s 40s 50s 60s, I've heard people talk about coming out to their parents, and what about coming out to your, to their kids. So coming out can come in all different shapes and sizes. And I think there are pros and cons for each age group, right. And so I think when you're coming out younger, and depending on of course, what kind of family you're coming out to, right, if you know that your parents just got to be supportive to you. That's beautiful, right? Coming out young to a beautiful supportive family and like really feeling into your identity and making friends and finding community and feeling fully self expressed, right? All those things would be your ideal situation. But I think it can also be super dangerous, right? If you don't have that if you don't have a supportive community and family, when you're young, knowing that you can take care of yourself that you're going to be kicked out or stranded and all those things, it can be really hard coming out at a young age versus when you come out older, I think yes, you some people do miss feel like they missed out like they weren't a part of the sort of the bigger, cohort, bigger community for a long time, they feel they may feel like they have a lot of catching up to do or they missed out on things. At the same time, I feel like you're coming out from a safer place where you're sort of established within yourself, you don't really need anyone to prove you that is directly linked to your sense of safety and security. It's interesting, I think, coming out is hard in general. I think both sides, whether you're older or younger, have their own challenges.
Jacqueline
You know, in the work that I do with folks, particularly around like in the career space, there's this idea of going from expert to novice. And so when folks are going through career transitions, and they've been in a particular career for a long time, they're an expert in that space, and they're like, now I want to do something creative. Now I want to do something different. The hardest leap is to then be a novice. And that is what my experience felt like coming out in my 30s was, I knew how to be a straight white, and mother. And like now learning how to navigate you know, the queer space like I remember there were times I had to ask for glossary moments. I was like, What is a U haul mean? And what's a pillow princess? And what's a switch? And there were times that I would say something and my sister who is queer would laugh and be like, That is such a heteronormative thing. And there was there wasn't still like a lot of social conditioning that I needed to unpack and unlearn. And it was interesting, because I actually I helped my sister, my brother and I helped my sister with her coming out process when she was in her early 20s. And, you know, helped her tell my parents and helped her kind of allow herself to be in her truth. And yet when it was my time, and now 10 years later, it took me months to tell my parents and I was a grown ass adult with with a child, right, like I to your point I was established in who I was. But that that is the challenge, right? The challenge was that I was an adult, and that people expect me and adults to be fully formed and somewhat predictable. And now I was introducing a new part of myself. And I think that sometimes that's the delay in coming out is because you could not feel like it was possible to share your truth or frankly, even recognize your truth when you were younger, because of your home because of your religion. Because of the times
Effy
also maybe because it's not so clear to you, right? We think of sexuality to be such a clean cut. People feel straight people feel gay you. I feel like it's not so mean that the Kinsey scale is the Kinsey scale for a reason, right this scale. And I feel like if you're not clearly on one side, that could also be a reason why you just don't come out to later because you're like, Well, you know, like, I like the opposite sex I and my broader culture tells me that's okay. And I don't necessarily dislike, you know, my opposite sex. So why, why look even further. I think we just need to recognize that for some people, it's just not that clear cut.
Jacqueline
Yeah, yeah. For those who identify like myself included as bi or pan, where you could be attracted also to the opposite sex, then it could be easier to stay engaged with the opposite sex if you feel like there's resistance in toward it in order to have same sex relationships. And so that could be true Oregon, it just to your point, it could not feel safe. I mean, we didn't have the same LGBTQ AI role models when I was young. I mean, there was There was no quiere alphabet that did not exist when I was young. So those letters had no meaning when I was growing up. And so it was challenging for me to even vision that out. Like, I knew I was attracted to girls, but girls are beautiful. So why wouldn't I be? But does that mean I want to be in relationship with them that I wanted to have sex with them? Like that came later in life?
Effy
Sure. I also think that I mean, I remember LGBT, those days, it was LGBT, the QA, the QA, AI, plus, we're in a part of it, but it was mostly for warnings, right? I mean, I remember learning about LGBT as a part of the HIV crisis. So it was always like warnings and something going wrong within the community. It was never I didn't learn of it as a, as something that you celebrate, or an identity, it was more like, warning, or something wrong crisis, you know,
Jacqueline
yes. And even I mean, the the origins of pride are not necessarily around celebration, there were struggle Bellion fight to just exist. And you know, that has that has evolved into also being proud of who we are in parallel to fighting for our right to exist. But to your point, it was really around struggle and strife. I mean, I have the same issues when it when I was growing up related to my ethnicity, like being Hispanic, particularly in New York City, at that time felt like I was supposed to, you know, be at a certain socio economic status, and certain schools and certain neighborhoods, and like the world had prescribed out to me, Oh, you're Hispanic, like, that's too bad, you're not going to be as successful. And so that was a part of myself, too, that I was like, oh, no, like, so this part of me is bad. And I'm a woman. And that's bad. And I'm young. And that's bad. And I like girls. And that's like, there's so many things that I, you know, was was fighting against. And so then I had to unravel all of those things in my 30s, which was great to your point, I had a job, then I didn't live with my parents, like, there were certain things. But it was also really challenging, because people thought that they knew me, I thought that I knew me.
Effy
Right? I think that's the thing, right? I don't know, I haven't really had a clear coming out of anything, where I sort of sat my parents down, sat anybody down and said, Here's my identity. So I don't know, I feel like for me, it's an ever evolving, ever, ever growing thing. I feel like my identity is like ever growing, I will changing. And because of the type of relationship I have with my parents, I left so young and I was boarding school and then left and the guy, I haven't really had a connection to get a connection with my parents as I was 13. So and because I've always done things that challenge the status quo, they kind of I think they've stopped expecting the conventional things. So I don't feel like I've ever had to come out. But I think along the way, like coming out to myself was was really hard. Like realizing that I don't want to be in a corporate world that I want to, like, I want to come out of that cookie cutter world, or that that I'm not so straight. And we're going to talk about that. But like, what does that really mean? And all that kind of stuff is I think coming out to yourself is harder, maybe when you're older, because like you said, You've been a certain way for such a long time, that you've kind of feel like that. That's it now like that's who you are, and you can't really you can't really change that. I'm curious knowing that you are safe. And then you are independent and interdependent and had a support network, and we're adult and you had a career and you had a kid and all that kind of stuff. What was in the way of you coming out to your parents? I'm curious.
Jacqueline
Yeah, I mean, I think is rooted in fear, they're not going to love me anymore. We're not gonna have the same report anymore, we're not gonna have the same relationship, they're gonna see me differently. Now. They, you know, I came from a religious background, they are going to fear that my soul will be damned to hell. And I don't want my parents to feel that sense of fear for me. And just what does that mean? Because that also meant the devolution of my marriage. So I was I was married to my ex husband. And we had separated and I had moved with my daughter to Manhattan. And we were living on our own except we weren't really, my wife was living with us at the time. We were living together for like a year. I mean, certainly, we weren't married yet. But we were living together for about a year before I told my parents. And so my mom would come by, or my dad would come visit. And I'd be like, Yeah, you got to go somewhere else tonight. Because they didn't know and I was like, at some point, I'm gonna tell them this hella, but I felt like I was like 14 or 15. And it was really rooted in and I think there's other things that I think my my family, you know, there's my father who shares everything like, you know, is emotions on his sleeves, and it feels like too much. And there's my mother who shares nothing, and you don't know anything about her. And so those are my two role models say nothing at all, keep everything private and in the closet, or share everything and overexposed and so I didn't really know where the middle ground and that was. And I think actually what was interesting for me, too, is I think that my transition was both my coming out was both confirmed Using and maybe more digestible because I was attracted to androgynous women, which you know, my wife is pretty androgynous looking and so you know, I've said that my my relationship with androgynous women was like my, my gateway binds pansexual like gay a y te
Yong. But it did feel like like, this is a smooth kind of like, stepping stone into it. But I think that also made it more confusing because it was like, alright, well, she kind of looks like a man, like, why wouldn't you just be with a man. And of course, that's
Effy
very normal.
Jacqueline
I was gonna say there's so much that makes you know her different. But what I realized also, and this was also true for me from the very beginning, it actually wasn't about her being a woman or man or anything like that, I mean, identify as pansexual, and that it is really the person and my connection to that person, regardless of the gender identity, and the body, you know, body shape and size and type that I'm attracted to. I do think that that made it harder. But that was it. I think that there was fear there. And I also, you know, we you've heard me talk about change before. And I think that self change goes through three different phases. And I certainly did as well, the first phase is letting go of the external expectations that define who you should be. And that takes a lot of like, again, religious unpacking, social unpacking familial unpacking, just to let go of those expectations, then there's navigating through the fear and the doubt that convinces us that we will fail that we will be alone that we will be unlovable if we reveal who we really are. And then there's the process of going through the reintroduction of saying, I am now this, you thought I was this. And I'm this and I'm still a little bit of that, but I'm also listening to, and being open to going through that process again and again and again, over the course of your life because we continue to evolve. The next step is to get involved in the community. Yeah, you're
gonna need help. You're gonna need support,
you're gonna need help, you're gonna need people to ask questions to that have no judgments, that when you say something, as I did many, many times, and sometimes still do that is wildly heteronormative, that someone gently will be like, hey, yeah, no, that's not that's not the thing we say. We're gonna say, you know, you're gonna say this instead. But have that I mean, I wrote an article, it's on our website called, I think it's first time lesbian experience, something like that. But essentially, when you are going to be with a woman for the first time, and all of the fear that goes around that, like tips and some steps to like, navigate through that first experience. There's another article up there called I'm sorry, my truth has caused you pain, which essentially, again, is preparing for the conversation and knowing that what you may say, that is your truth, it may hurt somebody, and how do you prepare for that? So but I share that to say there too, you know, those are just two resources that are on our website. But there are so many, I mean, there's a National Resource Center on LGBTQ aging, and we can put some links actually, in the show notes of places where people can get some resources and some community, but find people that you trust and clear up your social media feeds, you know, find other folks where there's representation. I mean, Effie, you talk about this all the time, the need for permission and inspiration we get when we see other people who are living their lives differently than us. And we're like, Wait, that's how you can seek out stories from others who are coming out later in life. And then you know, you can be kind to yourself, because you're gonna hear about people's struggles, and you're gonna see their successes, and you're gonna see opportunities, but that comes from changing your noise that comes from being engaged in other community. And then and then also seek out help if necessary, you know, coaches and therapists, and it's a big these are big life changes, you do not have to do this on your own.
Effy
And I would add in there, get comfortable with the discomfort of it all. And at the top of that list, get comfortable with telling people this is new to you. Because I find that that kind of honesty will allow people to choose if they choose to meet you where you're at, right? If you just tell people listen, I'm just figuring this out, you know, this and this happened or like I just came to it or I've been holding it down for so long. You know, I'm these are my first first experiences. I think having that kind of honesty, that kind of vulnerability will allow people to meet you where you're at. And I hopefully support you and not judge you and all these things. And I would say seek community before you seek dating. Seek community before you seek romance. Let's put it that way. Because I think having a safety of a community knowing your way around will eventually I think will get you to sort of get you to meet people that you want to date. But sometimes I think people just jump straight into dating and romance. I find same with you know becoming non monogamous or opening up your relationship. Often people have someone in sight by the time they are thinking about non monogamy and it just changed Use the dynamics I think if you are interested in, you know, all these different ways of living and loving, find community first. And I think with the supportive community as you get lay of the land, the rest will follow.
Jacqueline
Yes, start off easy. Start off with social media, start off maybe with the music that you're listening to, like, start to find the places where you're spending your time and change the noises there. Change your noise, yes, then you can move to what is the event that I'm gonna go to what is the book that I'm going to read what's you know, and start to just dip your toe in many waters and know again, this is this is the invitation for you. Here's the call to action is once you dip your toe outside of the prescription, once you say, actually, I'm not going to default to all of these things that has been prescribed to me. Your world is open to you. Try all the things. Go go for the buffet, try this, try that, eat a little more of this, decide you're going to put that one back, do it ethically do it with conversation, do it responsibly, do it consensually, but allow yourself at any age to just rediscover who you are. Yes.
Effy
As we were preparing for this podcast, one of the things that we're talking about is like what imagine a world where coming out isn't a thing. Right, then that coming out process is that because there is an assumption of what is and therefore you have to come up against
Jacqueline
you have to make an announcement to say I am not that. Exactly,
Effy
exactly. So it's like you we assume you know we joke about is like coming out of street like what would it be like if you had to announce that you're street street people don't have to announce that that street because there's an assumption. If you're not straight, you have to come out. And what if we were living in a world that that wasn't such a thing, that there was this there wasn't this one moment one, you have to make a decision to you have to sit some people down that love you that, you know, that is a big part of your bigger identity of your community and tell them what decision that you've made, and then go out there and like execute and still stay within that within that framework where that that's not how we were set up. But that when you were ready to explore relationships and love and connections when the right person came along, you explored what was available. And when you wanted to introduce somebody to your parents or whomever you wanted to sort of introduce them to make them a bigger part of your life. That's when you introduce people and that there wasn't this like preliminary conversation around who you're attracted to that you have sort of put into words beforehand, right? Yeah.
Jacqueline
I think we can get there. I think
Effy
honestly, the Gen Z's Right, exactly.
Jacqueline
I'm just gonna say like the kids nowadays, like I do, I like look at you know, what my daughter is looking at it, you know, on tick tock or the you know, her role models think that there are now very public more useful role models that are making that reality that you have described more possible, not everywhere in the country, I want to recognize that we are in the coasts in the coasts of you know, the United States. And I know that many of our listeners are not in the United States. So this will vary based on the community that you're in.
Effy
Folks in Europe are like we're over this.
Jacqueline
Americans continue to use identity politics.
Yeah. So
I think that that's possible. But yeah, what kind of world would that be?
Effy
Yeah, I mean, I don't know that. I feel like that's a word that's worth exploring. I can hear among our audience who I know are going, I'm assuming an assumption that they're going no, no, no, no, we must recognize the queer alphabet, we must name being, you know, whatever your sexual orientation is, because that's important for things like resource allocation, and policy and protection. And yes, all the things that the LGBTQ community need. Yes, I think recognition means that you're allocated things, and you're considering law and all that kind of stuff. So yes, and coming out is really important in normalizes these choices. So yes, to all of that, 100% agree that I don't think we should just erase everything, and not make it a thing. So I want to just recognize that in one hand, and on the other hand, I want to dream of this world where we don't even need to do that anymore, that we really do recognize individuals as individuals, and we don't need to have laws to protect them because it is it is what it is like that, it becomes the status quo. And then we can challenge it. But that that I want to like I'm definitely dreaming of this world idealized world where you just like introduce the person that you love, or the people that you love to the other people that you love. And you know, love life goes on love goes on, you know, my Pollyanna my pollyannish dreaming of the world. Yeah, I
Jacqueline
love it. I love it. I mean, you and I talk often about like the change that's possible. And I am I wouldn't say I'm more pessimistic, I would say a more steady change management and I was a community organizer went to school. Yeah, exactly. I think that it's like yes, Jen. Relations and generations from now maybe we're gonna get there. I think in between it's there's still struggle, there's still dialogue, there's still representation, there's still celebration. I think you were much more optimistic around the timeline of when we're gonna get there, then I don't
Effy
know, I hang out with your kid. And I'm like, oh, one generation, like, by the time she's like, her generation is in power. I feel like we'll be there. That's, yeah,
Jacqueline
I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful there's, you know, systemic prejudice is really embedded in there. So like, there's one thing about creating some social norm shifts, but really creating systematic change, I think is going to take
into your point around around identity, I think I've gone through a bunch of different labels over the course of I think it was, you know, bisexual and pansexual. And I've shared in a soapbox moment that at some point, I stopped saying pansexual, because I would get too many questions or too much challenge, like, do then sleep with this person and that person, and it's like, so many questions. So now I've landed in queer, I was resistant to queer for a long time. You know, when I was growing up, queer was not a positive term that didn't feel comfortable for me. But now, I feel like that best represent because essentially, it's like, not straight, it just boxes me into or like, frees me up, I should say, from the box, and then don't have to find anything else.
Effy
So you've landed on queer? Mm hmm. Yeah, I continue to remain in the air. I don't know I can't I feel like I should be landing in queer. I have a resistance. Right? We talk about this. We talked about this. We talked about this. Often I do have resistance to identifying as queer because I'm not straight. When people do ask me my, you know, nifty funny quip of an answer is, you know, people asked me what my sexual orientation is, I'll say particular. Because that is the truth that I am particular. I am particular. But I think it's also because in my head, this is the story that are the beliefs that I hold. I think to be quick to be queer isn't just about being not strict. I know people who are not straight, but I don't necessarily think they don't identify as queer. And I think that queerness is a political statement, as well as a sexual orientation, sexual identity. That's kind of I think, where I find myself, I'm thinking and as I reasonably explore, and I kind of keep an eye on an ear out for those things. I'm finding the queerness as a political expression, if you will, and I sometimes struggle to align with the politics of queerness. Not the sexiness of queerness. Right. So it's not really I think, I think that's where I struggle with queer. And, and then anything else just kind of feels not enough, right? Because I like how queerness is beyond just who you sleep with, but also who you like, who you align with, maybe. And I feel like sure who I sleep with kind of matches with queerness, who I align with, I don't know, like, maybe like 90 90% I'm still like 10% questioning things. So yeah, I feel like queerness is just I don't know, I'm not ready. I'm not ready. I don't feel like fully aligned, fully informed, fully made my main mind up about the politics and the the sort of the ethics of it,
Jacqueline
I think, yeah, I get that it makes sense to me, because I think I am fully aligned in that space. So I think that's why it like does dawn that because I think the work that I do outside of curious Fox, I think the way that I you know, the the way that I vote the things that I do align with that space. And so that makes sense. And I think that what we're talking about is interesting, because these are conversations that you have to have once that becomes a choice, right? When you once one decides to step out of the status quo of being straight or SIS or even married or monogamous, right and taking that step out of the prescription, then you have the freedom and more autonomy to determine what makes sense for you, and for your relationships. And then you get to have you have to ask yourself those questions. What are my What do I think about this? What should I be called? Who am I attracted to? What What am I going to put on my my Bumble, my OKCupid profile, like which box am I going to take? And that's beautiful that there's so much choice now, right that there's not like default and prescription. But there's also a lot of like self inquiry that needs to happen. And that again, can feel really overwhelming when you're supposed to be established. When you're older. When you're a professional when you have a family that now you're going through this thought process and you want to share this out with other folks. I mean, part of what I want to say to folks is he this is how I am this is who I am today. Come back and talk to me and a year from now. Like, I want the point is I don't want to be put into a prescription or default or conveyor belt anymore. And so then that means that I may shift and the things that I choose to do in the way I started choose to self Express. Do you feel like the queerness
Effy
label gives you that freedom? Do you feel like it gives you that enough of an ambiguity? Which were essentially what it is? This is what I'm hearing anyway. And I and I feel exactly the same way. So it's like, what is the label that is clear enough so that people around, you know, people kind of know what you're talking about, right? You're not sort of saying, I am an purple lemon, right? Because then people were like, are we talking about vegetables? Right? You kind of want to, you want to get on the same page. So you want us you want to what is it? What is the label that you use that gets people on the same page as you? And then at the same time, it's ambiguous enough that it gives you a broad range of expression, movement, change room for evolution, and kind of freedom, if you will? I think that's essentially what what you're you're trying to shoot for? And that definitely what I'm trying to shoot for?
Jacqueline
Yes, yes. And that's means very specifically, right, so. So when I think about my wife, or my partner, they're like, you know, they're lesbian, like that. That's their the bucket that they fall when I think about
Effy
those people, you know,
Jacqueline
in each way, though, that feels I think each way feels freeing. For me, at least it feels like to know, definitively this is this is my bucket, this is my community, this is like, there's something that feels incredibly comforting in that. And I think those of us who've stepped out of the prescription of being, you know, heterosexual or cisgender, or like, they're, you're walking away from a cocoon in some way of norms that exist to not having to explain yourself and things like that. And then that opens you up, though, to a world of possibility. And so there's a part of myself that does kind of covet and longing for that real clarity of like this, this is the type of person that I like, this is the, but then I also love not having to choose, but that's my opinion, that's my personality, you know, I'm an antenna, or kind of person, I want all my options always available to me. And so, you know, my preference is not to have any box at all. And again, if you know, talking about those three phases, first, I have to go through the realizing that the expectation of the world is that I choose. And that who I was, was not about choosing a particular path, then I had to fight that internal fear and doubt that like, what the hell's gonna happen to me was someone gonna love somebody who's that wild, who's that free, and also super, like, straight laced. I'm like, I'm like the most conservative wild person that you will write like I my work and my I'm like the super most corporate person that you'll meet. And also just wild and free, I want to be silly and salsa dancing on a rooftop in Brooklyn. And the next I want to have a really serious and deep conversation with the folks who are tuning in about navigating through through change in difficulty, like, I want all the things I want all of those dimensions. And for me, queerness allows me to do all of that is to say, I get to choose any of the letters and any of the things, but it also means a responsibility for me to learn about all those things. Like I think that was one of the pieces in coming out later, is you are not just taking on this identity, because this is who you are. But there is an entire history there LGBTQI ancestors that have, you know, an advocates that have allowed us to live in certain ways and to express ourselves in certain ways. And so like, there's a reverence to that history that you have to take on and appreciate. So there's a lot of learning. And then all the terms are so many terms, I just
Effy
I think the label is also helpful, because I think the labeling or picking, picking your label is actually an effort to belong, right. I think the part that I find the hardest of not picking my label, not saying yes, I'm queer is, then you don't, I don't really know where I belong, right? I mean, and I can look at it in both ways I can I can look at it in a way that when I belong everywhere, because I don't belong in one place. Or I can say I don't want anywhere because I haven't quite aligned myself with anyone or anything. I think as I look at these identity politics across you know what's happening right now I see two things I see an effort to the to individuate so people are like bombarding themselves like old post. It's like I imagined I in my in my mind's eye I see people like walking around with like, covered in posts with like labels on them. And I think that's an effort to both individuate and belong at the same time. I think there's a there's like this effort to be like, I want to be different. I want to be you know, I want to be recognized as my fully self expressed self I want to be seen, I want to be heard with all the nuances and all these like decisions that I've made and And I want to belong, I want to be a part of this community in this community in this community, I think those are like, and when I think of like, not landing on my identity, is what you're saying, like, I don't get to have ancestors and history. And at the same time, I also don't feel boxed into things, you know. So, yeah, it's up in the air. For me, it's up in the air. And I think like I said, it's just boys on politics. You know, like, I just haven't landed on certain topics. Yeah. Well, I
Jacqueline
think this highlights it's a little bit of a choose your own adventure, right, you get to decide. I mean, I know that you've talked to me about your very good friend who also came out in his 30s. And same similar story to me, right, professional stablish. Right. And then chose to then define himself and talk to his family about it. And I know you said that that was a difficult experience for him.
Effy
Sure. Yeah. I mean, it's crazy. Because he's, you know, like you said, He's, so first of all, he's a white gay man, which actually is very close to the top of the food chain. Right? He's, he's a passing, good looking white, gay man who's established in his career, popular, great, great guy, a very, very close friend of mine, also a collaborator of mine. Yeah, I mean, he came out, I think, when he was like, 30, it wasn't like, there was a big, big sort of pushback from his family. And then he just like, went back into his closet. And then I should say, he, I think he lived, he started to explore living as a gay man in New York, by the way, which I think, you know, when you talk to him about it, he'll say, like, New York saved my life, because it gave him the space to be who he is. And one of the things that the city does. But yeah, I mean, he came out again, when he's 35, to his mom and to his brother. And it was like, you know, it was like hanging out with a teenager, you know, like, it was stressful. And I think, what I did notice, though, which is what I was saying at the beginning, is that he said he was in a place now where if his family didn't accept them, he knew that he wasn't a good place that he could carry on, it would be sad, he would mourn any kind of loss or any kind of deterioration of connection. But he was like, I am my own person now. And I have, you know, I'm, I'm free, and I have, you know, I can afford my life, I can take care of myself, I have friends, I have community, I have a career, like, I would love my parents to be on board, I would love my family to be on board and celebrate me and all that kind of stuff. But if they don't, that's not on me. That's on them. If they want to keep a connection with me, I'm open and willing, and don't want to do all the work if they don't, that's on them. Which, you know, that's the privilege of coming out later in life.
Jacqueline
Yes. Yeah, I think so i think so that you hopefully at that point, have built out a little bit more establishment a little bit more community, I think that what I hear from from that story is similar to what I've heard from folks that I've worked with who, at some point, you come to the point where you realize, I don't want to waste any more time, not being authentic to who I am. And I don't want to have regrets. I don't want to live 20 3040 5060 more years, in a way that is not aligned with my truth, and then have regrets. And so you come to a decision point where the fear of not changing overrides the fear of what's going to happen if you lose everything you have, because of that change. That you realize for yourself, if I stay in the life that I am in the construct, and I am and the relationship that I am right now, the fear of not fulfilling who I am as an individual that is actually more scary than if I lose everything. And so that moment, is what I understand, you know, from folks who I've talked to and worked with, this is the driving point. And it sounds like for him, he was like, I'm going to hope for the best. Yeah, I'm gonna hope for the best. And I gotta do and I have to do this for me. Yes.
Effy
And I'm not abandoning myself, right? If you want to abandon me great, but I'm not gonna abandon myself. And I think that is such clarity of thought, and anything that is, I mean, I talk about this idea of abandon yourself when we're talking about boundaries, and relationships and everything else. But I feel like this is such a clear demonstration of you make that choice, like you fear the other person abandoning you. And to avoid that you abandon yourself. And I think ultimately, we feel abandoned because we abandon ourselves. And anything when you make that decision, as hard as it is, to stick with yourself, to love yourself, to accept yourself, and to not abandon yourself. Other people say, I think when you're thriving, it's hard. But that's when you're thriving.
Jacqueline
Yeah. And be prepared. I mean, you know, we can talk about a few things that you can do if you're coming out later in life. And I think one of them is to be prepared. Be prepared to answer some questions. Be prepared to do some explaining because I think what happens is that folks know that the present is live. I know that the future will be created, but have a sense of their past is should be clear, right? The past is in the past, I know what happened, I understand it, I've processed it. And to now know that there is a secret what feels like a secret that has emerged that you are something that I did not know that you were creates family members and loved ones and partners to not question the past. And so they're gonna have lots of questions. So be prepared to ask questions and to answer questions. And that can be hard, because in the beginning, you may feel either really private about it, or you may feel defensive, because maybe you've just come to this realization and you feel not joyful about it. And their questions now make you are feeling like you should be defending yourself, or you don't have the answers yet why? Or you don't have the answers yet. So just to be prepared for that, whether or not you have the answers, be prepared that are going to be questions, be prepared, that maybe some folks will know already. And
oh, you know, I already knew I could tell, you know, this
is only secret to you know, that you may lose some friends. But hopefully you're gonna gain more once you once you have a sense of your community. And then I think part of the hardest part is actually once you go through that phase is now starting to seek out those relationships, right? Like, you are now dating for the first time in this world in your 30s 40s 50s 60s. And you have to go into dating apps. And you have to go to like now different types of clubs and bars and event like that's scary. Again, go from the expert to novice, like, we walked around in middle school with our trays in our hands looking for what cafeteria it's table to sit at. But when you're older, you think that you've moved past that. I don't No need to be in that awkward phase of looking for where to sit anymore. And yet, there you go. There you are. Getting out and having to date and then being like, what is it like to flirt with a man or a woman or transfer folk? Or like what what does that feel like to do that for the first time, and the vulnerability of that, of really knowing that this is what you want? And not knowing how to do it? That's scary as hell. Sure.
Effy
Also, let's just not be coy sex with the same sex person, or a trans person is a whole new like going back talking about going back to novice, you know, so not just the dating part of it, but should you develop a physical relationship. I know that that definitely was the thing for me the physicality of it, I felt like I was, you know, very nerdy knew what I was doing and one side and then I would just turn into a 12 year old boy, who's you like fumbling around, just like I have no idea what I'm doing. And that alone can get in the way of you exploring because you it's just being an adult, like it's okay being a teenager fumbling around. It's hard being an adult sex educator fumbling around, you lose your entire street cred. Professional cred, and it's just not sexy.
Jacqueline
You're like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm
Effy
sorry. But I mean, so yes, yes to everything that you're saying, like coming out late, you have to go back to those teenage awkward years, to figure out who to sit with how to flirt, how to be on dating sites, as a queer person, how to go on those first dates, how to have conversations with people that you're not used to dating and having sex with and then actually having sex with them. That's a whole other ballgame. So cut yourself lots of slack. Yeah, I love and we've said this on the podcast before. I love that now. adulting is a verb. I love that I love that adulting is a verb and it's not some threshold that you cross and now you are fully formed. And you know your shit, you have your shit together, you know all the things, you know who you are. And you're somehow operating in this like, you know, an end form for decades, decades, like you're a fully formed adult, and then you're that thing for decades, three kids makes no sense. adulting is a verb. It is and life is a practice. I think those things are just so important. And to allow yourself to continue to check in with yourself, continue to explore, continue to try things, you don't have to change. You don't have to actually commit to anything. You don't have to promise anything to anyone. At the beginning of curious Fox we always said no promises, no commitments, just curiosity. I think what we're saying here is to just remain curious through about throughout your life, including your identity, including who you are, who you want to be what you align with, what kind of inspiration goes you know, crosses paths with you find permission to be fully self expressed in a way that you're thriving.
Jacqueline
Whatever your truth is, that is right. Whatever your timing is, that is right. Whoever and however you choose to tell that truth. That is right, that there is no timeline, there is no thing you're supposed to do. Just allow yourself give yourself permission to continue to check in with yourself and tap into your with yourself and say, How am I feeling? What do I want? What do I need from this world? What do I want to explore? And then begin to carve out some space little at a time Um, to make that happen, right if you're you're hearing me now 10 years into my coming out and with my parents, and 30 with a child, you know, and being established in my career and so I can say these things now and I couldn't have set them as succinctly in the beginning. So just ease into it. You'll you'll get there if that's your journey. Special thanks to my wife for helping me learn and appreciate queer history. My partner Alexis for helping me experience queer life in New York City, and to hot honey burlesque at Stonewall who made my birthday weekend extra special. The music that you're listening to now, and at the top of the episode is actually from sinful Sundays at Stonewall. If you happen to be in the neighborhood, I would highly encourage you to check it out.
If you'd like to continue the conversation, ask a question or share your story. Then start a conversation on our Facebook group at we are curious foxes. You can also visit our website at we are curious foxes for episodes, blog posts, reading lists, resources and so much more all under the umbrella of love, sex and relationships. The best way to stay connected to all of this is via our newsletter digest, which you can also sign up for on our website. If you want bonus clips, mini episodes, online workshops and a lot more than go to Patreon at we're curious foxes. If you navigate on over to Patreon, you're gonna hear it not only behind the scenes, but some conversations that Effie and I felt like were too personal to put on air. If you enjoyed this episode, then please share it with someone who you think needs to hear it. If it has meant something to you if it entertained you if you learned from it, then leave a review for the podcast on Apple, Spotify, audible stitcher or wherever you're listening. And if you haven't already, please follow us or like us and leave us a rating. That is how the podcast algorithm decides whether it's going to recommend our show to others. We read every single comment and love hearing from you. So please leave a review. And finally, if you have questions or a story that you'd like to share, or if you want to share your funny SEC story for an upcoming episode, you can send us an email or voice memo to listening at we are curious foxes.com This episode is produced by Effie blue and Jacqueline Miss La with help from Jamar Turkish. Our editor is Nina Pollack, who recently got engaged to her partner. We are so happy for them and wish them a lifetime of joy. Our intro music is composed by Dave Saha, we are so grateful for their work, and we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends.
Effy
Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious, curious, curious, curious, curious, stay curious.
Still Curios?
