Ep 167: Highly Sensitive Man: Navigating Sensitivity, Masculinity, and Relationships with Tom Falkenstein
Beautiful illustration by @claireboecousins
What does it mean to be a highly sensitive person (HSP)? How does high sensitivity differ between individuals socialized as men versus women? What are the unique advantages and obstacles faced by highly sensitive men in their relationships and daily lives?
In this episode, Effy and cognitive behavioral psychotherapist and author of "The Highly Sensitive Man" Tom Falkenstein take a deep dive into the core characteristics of high sensitivity and examine how societal expectations and gender norms shape the experience of sensitivity for men. Tom and Effy aim to shed light on the distinct challenges and advantages that highly sensitive men encounter in their relationships and everyday lives and provide practical tools and strategies to empower highly sensitive people to thrive in an overstimulating modern world.
To learn more about Tom
Tom Falkenstein has worked as a cognitive behavioural psychotherapist since 2006. After obtaining his degree in psychology in the UK, he completed his postgraduate training in psychotherapy in Germany. He then moved back to the UK where he worked as a psychotherapist in London. During this period, he developed a particular interest in high sensitivity and working with highly sensitive people. He has been training with Dr. Elaine Aron (author of The Highly Sensitive Person) since 2015. Currently practicing in Berlin, he also offers workshops for highly sensitive people in both English and German. The Highly Sensitive Man is his first book and was published in Germany 2017 and since has been translated into a number of other languages. Singer-Songrwiter-Activist Alanis Morissette called the book 'a breath of fresh air in the midst of a cultural determination to reduce toxic masculinity. This book is a balm, a movement and a revelation."
Instagram: @tom.falkenstein
Book: The Highly Sensitive Man
Website: hsp-eu.com
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TRANSCRIPT:
Effy
Welcome to the Curious Fox Podcast for those who challenge the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue. Today, I am curious about highly sensitive men. How high sensitivity differs for those socializes men, and how this quality, especially in men affects relationships. To help me explore this topic, I'm joined by the man who wrote the book on it.
Tom Falkenstein
Hi, my name is Tom Falkenstein. I'm a cognitive behavioral psychotherapists and psychologists and I'm the author of the book The highly sensitive men.
Effy
Before we dive into this topic, it's time for some audience participation. We have three fun, quick and easy ways for you to be involved with Jacqueline me and the podcast, and help us challenge the status quo and love sex and relationships. Back in episode 89, for Halloween of yesteryears, we had fun turning our relationship fears into rooms of a haunted house of relationship horrors. For example, my fear of getting stuck in a relationship escalator, without any power to shape my own destiny turned into a room where Upon entering, you stepped into a Stairmaster style contraption with the exit door at the top. Your attempts to get out just kept you on the Stairmaster with no joy, no design, just drudgery of social compliance and misery. Scary even thinking about it now. This year for Halloween, we want to open the haunted house once again, but this time with rooms from you. So here's the invitation, jump onto episode 89 If you haven't heard it already, or need a refresher, and then get creative. Pick that one fear that you have when it comes to love sex or relationship and see if you can design your room that represents it. Once you're done, get your Voice Memo app on your phone and tell us all about it. Then send it to listening at we are curious foxes.com He's only to include your name if you don't want to.
Jacqueline
Next in my four and a half minutes of spare time I opened an Etsy shop. It's a place for me to create products that I want to wear and use from bags for femme lesbians and bisexuals who want to make it very clear that we are not just allies, to shirts that declare that I'm with him and her to tote bags that proclaim that I've got 99 problems and white hetero mono normative patriarchy is basically all of them. The Etsy shop is filled with fun pieces, each designed to help us challenge the status quo and celebrate the beauty of pride US Code podcast to get 10% Off to the end of July. And if you're in the US get free shipping straight to your door, visit the roots and wings gallery on Etsy or find the link in our show notes or in my Instagram bio.
Effy
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Jacqueline
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Effy
And we're back. The world got to know the highly sensitive person through the work of the clinical research psychologist and author Elaine Aaron. Originally published in 1996. Her best selling book, The highly sensitive person not only entered the term highly sensitive person, or HSP into common vernacular. It also helped Many people who fit this criteria make sense of the world and their unique experience in it. In 2019, in his book, The highly sensitive man, cognitive behavioral psychotherapist on focus, Stein focused on high sensitivity, specifically in men. When Tom and I sat down to talk about this, I wanted to start by understanding what exactly is a highly sensitive person.
Tom Falkenstein
It's initially an old concept from that you've already mentioned, he called it in a sensitiveness. And in you mentioned in 1913, saying that about 25% of the population is more sensitive than the rest. And what Elaine Aaron did in the 90s Is she started researching that that innate sensitivity and called it sensory processing sensitivity, which is the term research or our highest sensitivity or the absence of personnel. It's known outside academia. And what it basically describes the concept is a temperamental trait or personality trait. And the way I try to describe it normally is that I say everyone is sensitive, we're all sensitive, but there are individual differences in our sensitivity. So there are individual differences in how we process and respond to information and some of us are more sensitive than others due to a more sensitive central nervous system. And what the research since the 90s is showing has shown is that about 30% of population is particularly sensitive in terms of they process things very deeply, and more than the rest and about 40% on the medium range of sensitivity and about 30% are low in sensitivity. And Elaine Aaron then basically describes four characteristics that describe being highly sensitive. And those four, the choice often short and simple. The acronym doe s does the US and these four depth of processing. So that what I just mentioned that sort of deep processing cognitive processing of emotional, physical, social stimuli, oh is for over stimulation. So tendency to feel very quickly overstimulated, which makes sense, if you think about if you see a lot and process a lot and think a lot about what you experiencing, that you then also become probably quite quickly overstimulated. And that is what what oh describes as for emotional reactivity, including empathy. So the idea that people who are highly sensitive are particularly emotional, and that means not just negative emotions, and in inverted commas, negative or positive emotions, the whole spectrum of emotions, so they feel joy and positive feelings quite strongly. But also, if you want to call them negative feelings quite strongly, and S is for doe s. S is for sensitivity to subtle stimuli. So being quite sensitive to physical, subtle stimuli, like let's say lights, or certain scents or certain fabric you're you don't like to wear. And that is basically what describes a highly sensitive person in Nutshell.
Effy
Yeah, super interesting. Definitely relate to a lot of that myself. Yeah. I'm curious, do we know if i this sensitive people are born that way? Or are they made? Do we know? Is it one of those like nature nurture questions?
Tom Falkenstein
Yeah. Yes, it is a little bit. I know that Elaine Aaron, in the 90s was very much at very much the opinion that it's an innate trait. But obviously, you know, it's always, it's always a mixture of environment, and genes. And there is a study that's been done recently that basically showed is sort of 5050 I think, 49 51% nature and nurture.
Effy
Fascinating. Yeah. So I know that whenever I have sort of talked about highly sensitive people. And when the conversation comes up, it's often for some reason, more easily spoken about in in terms of women, right? Yes, you wrote a book that specifically around highly sensitive men, which I think is really important to look at it that way. So how does high sensitivity different between people who are socialized as men are socialized a woman?
Tom Falkenstein
So let me just very quickly describe why I wrote this book. And maybe that will, in a way also then answer your question, because exactly for what you just mentioned, that was exactly the one of the reasons why I decided to write the book. So I'm, as I mentioned in the introduction, I'm a psychotherapist and I've been working as a psychotherapist now for 12 years. And I used to work and live in London, the clinic and I happen to have a lot of young men who all mentioned in their sessions that they were struggling being particularly sensitive and emotional, and it wasn't a sensitivity or emotionality linked to the mental health issues they were treated for at the time, it was more sensitivity and a sense of being quite emotional that they had experienced since they were children. And that really made me think about sensitivity for the first time, this was about 10 years ago, probably. And then I remember thinking, Oh, I should do some research on sensitivity, and maybe I can discuss it with them or show them you know, why it's not so bad to be sensitive as a man or emotionalism man, and I remember going to a bookshop in London and was big bookshop and, and there were there were books on sensitivity, high sensitivity, but they were all written by women. And they seemingly were written for women. And the highly sensitive men was only mentioned very briefly in all these books, usually like a page or, and I just felt it doesn't really reflect what I'm what I'm seeing on the bookshelf just doesn't reflect what I'm experiencing in the consulting room. And that made me think about how is it that we don't talk about high sensitivity in men? Clearly, it exists. But it does come up in therapy sessions. And I then basically started doing research. And I got in touch with Elaine Aaron, who I just mentioned, and we started having supervision. And I did some training with her and interviewed for the book, basically, and then interviewed highly sensitive men, because I wants to get a good understanding of what they what they're struggling with. And I then basically ended up interviewing 25 highly sensitive men and I included in nine of those interviews in the book. And basically, when I had interviewed everyone, I just sort of tried to work out, are there any sort of common themes that emerge? So by looking at those interviews, is there something that they mentioned again, and again and again? And is this somehow different from what maybe halogens woman might struggle with, and what I had read in those books that I mentioned. And then I basically arranged it sort of in sort of three areas that are particularly challenging or that have been mentioned again, and again, and again. And those interviews and there seem to be one topic that emerged, and that was working with feeling well, looking around emotion regulation, and overstimulation. Because that is something a lot of hands of men struggle with, not everyone, of course, it's a very, it's not a homogenous group, you know, I think that's something to remember, not every highly sensitive man is, you know, soft spoken artist. But there seem to be, there seemed to have been, what I noticed was there was a theme of around emotionality, and working with around over stimulation. And then the other one, the other area that I noticed was issues around self care. So living a lifestyle that is not particularly suitable to your temperament. And the third issue area that a lot of men struggled with were, was the topic of being very self critical. And I wonder due to due to being a very sensitive and being and being very emotional. And I think, when you asked me about the differences between what is different maybe between someone who identifies as male or female from as highly sensitive, I wonder whether this part is different. That's also insensitive, women have to deal with overstimulation and dealing with emotion regulation. And they might also live a lifestyle that isn't particularly suitable to their to their sense of disposition. But I do wonder whether for many, not for all of them, but for many artisans, men, the third aspect of the problem around self criticism, and the sense that you're not quite living up to the male ideal is somehow more problematic, because it just adds a layer to it, if that makes sense.
Effy
Yeah, absolutely. It doesn't fit into the narrative of what we expect, and what we expect from masculinity. So I can I can totally understand because it would cause this an internal dissonance, right? It's an additional layer, whereas for women, we, you know, we talk about the feminine spirit, and then gentleness and kindness and softness and sensitivity, were all kind of already words that we use within the feminine sort of characteristics, right? But but we don't use the masculine characteristics. So I can see how it would cause definitely an extra layer of, of dissonance for men, and not finding any resources and only resources they find is 90% about women and you know, a footnote about men and I can I can see how that exacerbates the situation as well. So
Tom Falkenstein
completely, and I think if we do use those descriptions or those attributes, for men, it's usually shaming or what is it causes shame and loss. And I think that that is a something that I think highly sensitive men. And again, when I interviewed both 25 Men Not everyone experienced that there was some Allison's men who said, Oh, you know, it was always fine. being quite thoughtful. It was, it was fine. Growing up, it was fine being very reflective. It was like my parents that I was emotional by peers. But but there were also many who had a different story to tell. And I just wanted to include that in the book. Hmm.
Effy
And what are some of those other stories because I'm wondering whether there is the highest, here's sort of the way that I imagined, there's the high sensitivity, right, like how you are processing that information. And then there is your reaction to it was everything to separate the separate states, you can be highly sensitive and get overstimulated. And what you do with the rope was stimulation, I imagine differs from person to person, some might might shut down and go inwards. And some might might just like, push out, sort of, to release that energy. And I can see how we know if you're socialized as a woman, you're more likely to sort of hold it in or collapse. With men, I can see how that can turn into aggression, which sounds kind of counterintuitive on people, but but not at the same time.
Tom Falkenstein
Yes, I think that's a really, it's a really interesting point, that you're mentioning the dimensioning here. So sometimes, you know, I think if you, if you grew up with the sense that it's expected or more came to go outwards, then you might exactly show a certain kind of behavior, let's say, aggression, or anger, or just verbalizing it more going more outwards, rather than inwards. And I think that's what often happens with them that there's a certain outward, you know, behavior, that makes you not see almost what's behind it. So I think that's my, for example. I mean, this is not just the case for highly sensitive people, or highly sensitive men, but when we, you know, I think we deal with anger management, or, you know, working on anger, full stop on self destructive behavior, I think it is really important to explore what's underneath it, obviously, and what other feelings there are, that, you know, might come out as anger, but usually anger, you know, there's another feeling underneath, and that could be a much more vulnerable feeling. But yes, I think that our, again, is different. I don't want to generalize too much. But I think there are differences between often between men and women. That's yeah, that we can see.
Effy
Again, on this note, is it also fair to say that we sometimes miss characterize this idea of being highly sensitive, but with being also soft and gentle, and sort of kind and, but it can look like aggression? And harshness, because it because emotional dysregulation,
Tom Falkenstein
exactly, I remember, I once had a client who, and all sorts of mentioned the book, you know, who seemed very, you know, masculine in the traditional sense, let's say, whatever that's, you know, traditional description is of masculinity that we all many of us have in our heads and grew up, but he seemed very sort of, you know, very straight and very masculine and various, my oldest mature, I would say, to an extent, very extroverted, and actually, but then there was just how he appeared. And if you scratch the surface a little bit with him in his sessions, then it became obvious that they are obviously much more vulnerable feelings underneath that, that need to be looked at, in therapy, for example. So yeah, I just felt writing this book, and it's a book that is obviously also for for women, you know, I mean, I, it was really important to me to write a book that feels very inclusive. And while it is addressing men, I also think it is helpful is a helpful book for women who want to learn more about maybe the highly sensitive brother or their house as a partner, or father or whatever. But also, if they're highly sensitive themselves, they might find the second part of the book, which is all tools and techniques. The first part is more theory and a little bit about masculinity and mental health. And then it is really very problematic when you start researching a little bit the figures and stats when it comes to mental health, and then but I, so the first half of the book is very much sort of theoretical. And the second part is very practical. And I think, despite it being a book for highly sensitive men, I also get quite a emails from women who've read it and who found it very helpful, either for themselves or for, you know, helping them to understand highly sensitive men their lives better.
Effy
I'm curious whether you can speak to a little about how being Ireland being a highly sensitive man specifically might impact romantic relationships.
Tom Falkenstein
So what I this is just based on my interviews that I did for the book, and on my therapeutic work with highly sensitive men, what I noticed is, and again, I don't want to generalize too much, but what I noticed that a certain sometimes we have some issues around masculinity in terms of the sense of having grown Not with the sense that they're not manly enough. And of course, that can impact on how they later on interact with potential partners or how they how, how much confidence they show when it comes to approaching others. And that is something that has come up quite a lot. Not for everyone, but for many. And I noticed also that most of them that I spoke to, were either single, or they were in more long term relationships, which I find interesting. So they weren't no one, maybe there's a good one to say, because they didn't say it. But none of them said, Oh, yes, I'm having a lot of partners, or, you know, I can't quite commit to relationships. So and I've thought about this when we wrote the book, and it doesn't really matter whether they were gay or straight or, and I was thinking I was really interesting, because maybe it shows that if you are a little bit more, a bit more shy, maybe also a bit more sensitive, and maybe you find certain situations slightly more challenging. But maybe that doesn't mean that you're not constantly seek new stimulation in terms of, you know, new partners, or maybe you're more likely to just stick with what you have. That is the I don't know, that's just, these are just my personal thoughts are backed up with anything. This is just based on the interviews that I did. But a pattern was certainly more long term relationship. And not many, many sexual adventures and loads of different partners. So most of the men I spoke to weren't high sensation seekers, you know, they weren't looking for really stimulating, exciting, adventurous, maybe slightly dangerous situations or relationships.
Effy
Yeah, that makes sense. Right? That makes sense. I'm curious whether does it have a certain impact on partner choice? If you if you're arriving with high sensitivity, do you know if it has a, like, any kind of impact on partner choice,
Tom Falkenstein
I can't think of any research being done on that, I think there will be a really interesting PhD, maybe the next one, do another one. I'll do that. I'm gonna choose that topic. But I can't think of any research to back it up. But But just based on the interviews that I did, that were, I think a couple of men who were drawn to two partners who they described as narcissistic, or emotionally unstable, unstable. And that's again, just something that I sort of picked up as I was doing the interviews that this was mentioned a couple of times. So the combination of someone who is highly sensitive, in that case it sensitive men, and a woman or men, another man who had some traits of narcissism or borderline personality, or whatever, you know. And I think that's quite an interesting observation. And I wonder whether that is something that sometimes occurs,
Effy
it's some of the trends that I see with my coaching, I work with couples and people in relationships. Again, no research, there's so many topics that I want to I want to research, I should get back to school, I feel like I should just be at school.
Tom Falkenstein
There's still time.
Effy
The thing that I see, and this is why I kind of asked the question, do we know if we're born this way? Or, you know, is it nature nurture question, right? And it makes sense that it's 5050, just like any of these traits? Yeah. And I wonder, you know, some of the things that I see with my clients that my clients who show up more sensitive, the way that I talk about it is that if we imagine that we have two antennas, right, one antenna points outwards, and that antenna picks up the people around us and where they are in allows us to socialize and and meet people where they're at and kind of CO regulate to the crowd, right? And another internal antenna, another antenna that points inwards, and that is giving us a feedback from within us, right? That's an ideal situation. So we know how we feel. And that's anything from am I hungry? Do I need a pee? Do I need water all the way to how do I feel? Do I want to be here? Is this within my boundaries? All that kind of stuff? Right? So that's an ideal situation. And I think what I have noticed that if you grow up in households where there was a lot of volatility, or a lot of change within the closest caregivers, that we kind of grew up with the one antenna pointing out isn't enough doesn't feel enough because there's so much going on and the child making compromises, we end up kind of using the the internal antenna we pointed outwards as well. So now we have two antennas, which is making us highly sensitive to the outside environment and cuts us off what I noticed a lot that cuts us off from ourselves, right? And I can see how that person is now going out in the world with two antennas pointing outwards, feeling very sensitive and not having the emotional regulation skills because they're not getting the feedback they need from there is no internal antenna, if you will. Yeah, and of course that causes overstimulation chin inhibits self care, because if you're not getting the feedback, how are you going to take care of yourself? Right. And of course, within that environment with the volatility, and sort of instability, you do also get sort of negative narratives, right within that household, you tend to get the negative narratives. So to me kind of like hits all the notes that that you shared. And I'm wondering, the idea kind of then has like a sidestep into attachment, and kind of seeking the seeking what you know, what love looks like, right? So and then you end up finding partners who mimic or mirror, you know, the disturbed households that you might have developed? And that's kind of how I would connect the dots. I don't know what how does that feel for you? Yeah, that's,
Tom Falkenstein
I mean, I agree with everything you said, I think that makes a lot of sense to, you know, that it's quite a good picture, I think of those two antennas. And, you know, and what do we what are the circumstance we grew up in? I think with high sensitivity, it is important to mention that not every highly sensitive person had a negative or particularly volatile upbringing. So, you know, there loads of people license people out there who had very good enough or good childhoods, you know, how do we want to define that, but in terms of, you know, care and safety and, and feeling loved, so, and they're still highly sensitive? So I think that is the only thing I would add, would add to it. But yes, I mean, I think it is very complicated, isn't it? I mean, we're not just our temperament. A one personality trait, right? We are. I mean, everyone knows it is also complex and complicated. What shapes us, you know, and you mentioned, attachment styles you mentioned, you know, if you think about the experiences we have, if we think about personality traits that we grew up with, I mean, all these things form us and, and I think that it's very complicated to me. And sometimes I think, when we when we see when I when I started to struggle with the whole conversation around identity is that it almost seems to become some people the the one defining aspect of the character warfare personality, and I think it is, for me as a speaking as a, as a clinician therapist, I find it very helpful to first of all, for myself to if I work with patients to think about it, whether they are also highly sensitive, of course, they see me for other things often, often sometimes I know people see me who don't know anything about high sensitivity, don't know anything about it. You know, they're seeing you for mental health issues. And then others see me too, because they want some advice, or some some consultations and sensitivity. But for me, as a therapist working with people are, let's say depressed or anxious. I think it is just really important. It's just another layer that I find quite helpful when it comes to working with those patients. And at the same time, the other way around, I think, when we know whether we're highly sensitive, it just might help us a little bit to understand ourselves better. But um, but I'm always a little bit careful when people then go into the other extreme and say, Oh, this is, you know, this is it. This describes everything of me. And no matter my attachment styles, or my, you know, whatever I, you know, experienced is all about this one trade. And I think it's just, it's just a bit too simplistic, isn't it? I think it's, yeah, I think it's very complex.
Effy
No, it totally makes sense. It is the one piece of the puzzle that is the human soul. Yeah, yeah, that totally makes sense.
Tom Falkenstein
But I but I genuinely feel that alive. You know, I mean, I maybe that's just me. But I generally feel a bit like, you know, we often as humans, we try to sort of narrow things down to one thing, you know, this is it, and this is who I am, or this is what I sort of defining ourselves by one thing, and I am always a bit sort of cautious when people do it, or when when I see it, because I just feel a bit like Yeah, but it is so multifaceted, isn't it?
Effy
Yes, absolutely. If you were speculating man, what would you why would you say that happened? Why do we seek that one label the one answer the one facet that we want to lead with? I sometimes
Tom Falkenstein
wonder whether it's just gives us a false sense of security and simplicity in life. You know, I mean, if you really start thinking about life, as you know, being here in the world, and I mean, I think it is so complicated in the human condition, nothing is so complicated, and, and life is so incredibly fragile that I do sometimes wonder whether it just gives people a sense of security and identity. That is, this is me, you know, and I just wonder whether some people find it difficult to, to stay in that between space. And I think that's just for many people a tendency to go into, you know, into self defining as one thing, because it's maybe less skin area to know what gives you a sense of safety?
Effy
Yeah, sure. I think I agree with you. I think that's definitely the simplicity, the ease of it. And I think there is the extra work that is needed to hold the multiplicity in our minds. It can be exhausting, I think to be able to say this, and this and this, and not this, or this is kind of you making, it's easier to go down that path. I think just making decisions, you know, each book, but I think it's a different way of thinking. And I think it takes up more bandwidth to kind of keep all the multiplicities and see them as more of a network than a sort of forks in the road that you're going down on, you know, yeah, I think it's more of a way of being that you can sort of see that complex complexity and hold it without necessarily having to make decisions, or be ruled by it. I think it just takes that extra awareness and work to do that would be my guess.
Tom Falkenstein
Yes, I agree, completely agree with you. I think it's a really important part that it is more maybe it's more exhausting to hold that multifaceted approach to ourselves and to life, you know, and I, and of course, it's also something that's not going to now moan about social media. But of course, that is one aspect, I think that can get lost in social media interactions very quickly. Right? That's sort of the sort of multifaceted, yes, it's this, and that, rather than this or that.
Effy
Yeah. And I think there's no, there's sometimes no action, right with the multiplicity, he kind of had to hold it. Whereas I think with choosing one or the other than it produces an action plan, then you have things to do, especially for people who feel comfortable in doing things and clarity and motion. If you're in that camp people, the doers, right, I think the multiplicity doesn't really give you straight answers. It's just you just hold it. Yes, then yes. And you're doing them somewhere else, you know?
Tom Falkenstein
Yeah. I love that. I love that. Yes, yes. I never thought about it, actually. But you know, to put it that bluntly, I think you're absolutely right. multiplicity, maybe doesn't quite encourage you to go into actions, you know, instead of is more the challenge is more to hold it. And, and maybe that is more challenging, because sometimes you just want to go into action. Right? And you just want to Yeah, interesting.
Effy
Yeah. Super interesting. super interesting. Okay, so we've kind of, and this kind of happens, like we kind of veered off towards like the struggles of being sensitive. I'm curious, I'm sure. With all these things. There's also like, superpowers like the advantages, what would you say the advantages of being a highly sensitive man
Tom Falkenstein
coming, I do want to say before we before on to the about the advantages is that maybe leads to articulate and is that it is important to also consider that high sensitivity correlates with mental health issues, and signs of psychopathology so, so when you're highly sensitive, you're also more likely to develop mental health issues. And then again, I think that's why this topic is really important for your listeners, who are maybe in therapy, or, you know, just in they if they feel if someone feels Oh, that sort of describes myself, and maybe bring it up with your therapist, you know, it just might be an important piece in the puzzle, you know, not the most not the one that explains everything, but maybe just an important, important piece. And when it comes to the advantages, or the positive aspects of being highly sensitive, I'm really glad you're asking because I do sometimes think, again, and again, you know, having this multiplicity in our conversation right now as well, you know, so it's not just, you know, a challenge to be highly sensitive, because you might have issues with emotion regulation, or with stimulation, or self confidence as a man, but, but also to talk about the positive aspects, and to show that it's a bit of both. And, and not just one thing, or good, or it's not just good, or it's not just that, you know, the Berkeley comments. So I'm really glad you asked about the advantages. I think, coming back to what I just said about therapy and the correlation with mental health issues. There are three studies at the moment who show that those individuals who are highly sensitive also, there might be more vulnerable to develop certain mental health issues, but they also seem to benefit more from interventions. So there was what comes to mind is a study that they did with teenagers in London teenage girls in London, and they did a depression prevention program with them and they could show that those teenagers who were highly sensitive and receive the treatment were less likely to become depressed and those who those who are less sensitive. So what I find interesting about the concept is that it seems to go in both directions and obviously more research is needed. Hear. But it is not just the case that it makes you more vulnerable to develop certain issues or issues. It also seems to be the case that you might benefit more from certain interventions or therapeutic treatments than people who are less sensitive. And I think in a way, it makes sense if you are quite sensitive to external influences. And if you really process what you experienced quite deeply, it might cognitively and emotionally, it might be the case that if you experience a really good match with your therapist, that you benefit from those interventions more, there's more research happening around that topic, something I'm actually doing at the moment. So hopefully, we'll have more research coming up in the next few years. So that is one advantage, if you want to call it advantage.
Effy
Something that I associate with high sensitivity is what I call porosity. It feels like there's a recipe to you that things kind of come through and go through and kind of get that core. So I can see how that can both cause mental health issues. And he wanted to ask you quite so is like, what are the some of the common ones. And we should just talk about that, because I think it's a really good point that you're making. But in the same way that because porosity is it's almost indiscriminate, right with high sensitivity, the good things and bad things come through. So I can see how prevention and support and treatment and healing modalities can also get through in the same in same way through that porosity and hit you. So that kind of makes a lot of sense. Yeah,
Tom Falkenstein
exactly. Exactly. I think that is exactly what you're what you're saying that it goes in both directions. So and I love that, you know, that word, you know being porous, and that it goes yeah, that is an advantage and, and a challenge. It really depends on the situation. So you might struggle more uncertain situations and let people who have more thicker skinned, but you might benefit in other situations where maybe it is a benefit, if you had quite thin skinned or if more penetrates you in a way, what in terms of what comes from from the outside. So I think that can be an advantage. And the other thing I do generally feel this depth of processing, which is the most defining characteristic of whether I mentioned earlier, the doe s and the D the death processing is the most defining characteristic. And I think one positive aspect of being highly sensitive is how enriching it can be in terms of your life, and how you live your life and how you interact with your life. And some people might quickly you know, call it overthinking and give you 10,000 steps, I can still stop overthinking. But I am always again, a bit cautious about it. Because sometimes I think it is really enjoyable to think about what is going on in your life and to feel a lot and to go through life. Not feeling numb or feeling detached, you know. And so I think it comes with a certain intensity, I would say and I think we should celebrate this, rather than just seeing it as something negative that we want to reduce or want to get rid of. Of course, if it's sort of overthinking and rumination in terms of being depressed, then of course, it's a different story. But I mean, more in terms of, you know, just living life into engage being very engaged with life, you know, and I think that is a huge advantage. And the third aspect I would mention is showing a quite high empathy. I mean that it's there's some research done on that thing. Again, we need more research on it, but it seems to be the case that highly sensitive men also usually tend to be quite a lot of empathy. And again, Surely that is a good thing. And much needed nowadays. So these things I would say, are advantages. And surely we want partners who are thoughtful and reflective and, you know, an emotional, I mean, I think that surely should be a positive thing,
Effy
too. And I love that with your with the second point of kind of celebrating the deep thinking and the deep sensations and intensity. The thing that came up for me is like being sensitive enough to really fully experience or which I think something that we don't experience that much especially in the first place we live in with social media, there isn't a second to actually feel or like deeply awesome. We see obviously awesome a lot but they could feeling that or anything that the sensitivity gives you access to that feeling that just takes a bit you know, just takes takes a minute to sink in to sort of feel that or, and I think it's not something that's available to everyone.
Tom Falkenstein
Absolutely. I completely agree with you. And I think that is something that we should celebrate, you know, that sense of or that sense of excitement that sends an interesting feeling touch by something that you see or that you experience, Surely that is something extremely valuable in life? Absolutely.
Effy
Yeah. Okay, I know that your book is full of tools and skills and strategies for people to sort of be their highly sensitive ways, and not necessarily look at it as a pathology, but live a good life, a healthy life. Could you share, like some of your top maybe like the top three tools that you think are just good for people to know. And then for the rest, they can, you know, everybody can jump into the book is a great book that I recommend. But we like to leave people with, you know, some takeaways that they can really make use of. So what would be your like one, one or two pieces of advice?
Tom Falkenstein
Yeah, sure. I just want to quickly answer just because we briefly touched on something. I think the last question that was, what is since I think 50, associated with when it comes to mental health? Yes, just because some of your listeners, you know, might have interest in that. And then I'll come back to, to the strategies.
Effy
Thank you.
Tom Falkenstein
So it is associated with increased risk of developing mental health issues, like very common anxiety, depression, but also emotion regulation issues that I mentioned earlier. It is also associated with a lower subjective happiness and life satisfaction, and a greater need for recovery. So these are all things it is related to the loads of other things, as well. But those are psychosomatic issues as well. So quite a broad range of mental health issues.
Effy
I imagine addiction would be one of those as well. How does addiction show up in relation to highly
Tom Falkenstein
sensitive people? Yeah, super interesting. As far as I know, I haven't I'm not aware of a study done on that, I think it would be really interesting to look at addiction and high sensitivity, because my suspicion is, but again, this is just me thinking about it, not not based on any research that I could find is that it would correlate, I can imagine that people who are highly sensitive might also more likely to self regulate with alcohol or with drugs or with other drugs or, you know, whatever, whatever it is, but I can't think of a study that has that has done that. But maybe some of your listeners who you want to do a PhD or research project on that might might take this further. So in terms of strategies to improve like your life quality, I basically as I mentioned earlier, those three areas that I have come up in that I described in the book, the the first area was the overstimulation and dealing with intense feelings. The second one was problems with self worth, and self acceptance of this whole notion about being manly enough. And the third was the lack of self care. So getting a lifestyle that doesn't suit your temperament. I think any strategies or tools that approach, these aspects are helpful. And it could be something in terms of dealing with stimulation, and emotion regulation, any of the tools in the toolbox could be helpful. I mean, I mentioned many, but, for example, starting to Well, first of all, to analyze your moments of over stimulation. So what are triggers? What are thoughts that come up when you're feeling overstimulated? How does your body feel how what is the emotion, the feeling that you're having? What is your tendency that you want to do when you feel overstimulated? So I think it's an example quite important just to be aware of how it shows up in your daily life, and to sit down and really think about and maybe even write it down how you experience it. And then, so that could be important. And then too, when it comes to emotion regulation skills, it could be very easy first steps could be just to become better at naming your own feelings. I mean, it sounds super simple, and easy. But I mean, I'm always amazed how difficult it actually is.
Effy
Simple, but not easy. Yes, exactly. It
Tom Falkenstein
sounds simple, but it's not easy. You know, to, to name, you know what you're feeling and to create some distance to what you're feeling by just naming naming your feelings. And this the same to make maybe recognize your triggers for what it is, you know, I feel because so what is it that has that you've experienced that could lead to your that could have led to your feelings? I think mindfulness is important when it comes to emotion regulation. So all the mindfulness exercises whether it's whether it is you know, an informal one just you know, practicing and walk down yesterday for example, I went for a walk in the evening and I just at one point noticed that was very much in my head and just thinking thinking and then I thought, okay, let's become a bit more aware of what's actually going on around you. So I just paid attention for a moment. as to how my feet felt on the floor, how, what I actually saw what I actually could hear. So just paying attention to my senses. And that was a very informal way to practice mindfulness. But it could also be obviously meditation or more sitting on the cushion. mindful breathing exercise would be a more formal way to practice it, I think, to learn to normalize emotions could be helpful to also become more self compassionate to also maybe think about the link between your feelings and your needs. So I think it often helps to understand our feelings better, and our to regulate our feelings better when we actually make a link between Well, what is the need here? Why do I Why do I have this feeling once I've named it? And does is there like a threat that a need is not fulfilled, or the need frustrated that I have an emotional need or the need to filled? So all these sort of steps, I think could be very helpful when it comes to improving emotion regulation. And when it comes to the work around self worth, I mean, again, it sounds Always so Nothing new. But I think it is really about learning to identify where does this critical voice come from? You know, when you have very self critical thoughts about you, or your own sensitivity about your own masculinity? Who are those voices? Where do they come from, and then work getting into the work around the self critic, self critic, and when it comes to lifestyle to lifestyle, it might not quite suit or match your sensitive disposition? I think it depends on what the area of your life is, and really think about is that any change I can make, and it could be, I remember, in London, I had a patient who was highly sensitive. And he, he, for example, we just worked on him leaving work in during the lunch break, and just getting out for 45 minutes instead of sitting with his colleagues at the cafeteria with the place where they used to work, where they used to eat during during the work and you found that always really overstimulating, so we just worked on how could increase downtime, how can he? So can he take the tube? One step stop less? And can he walked the rest to work? Can you leave during the lunch break? I mean, little things like that. But he found that really quite helpful. So it depends a little bit on where the area is that you're struggling with, but making some lifestyle changes and just thinking about okay, can I prioritize certain things over the next few weeks? Yeah, so so. So there's those aspects, I would say, but basically, I think self compassion, mindfulness, and learning to work with the inner critic, and really improving your emotional regulation skills. That seems to me quite important, and to maybe also work around. Okay, so what am I very proud of in my life? What am I what am I happy about? What has been good experience in my life? And how is this linked to my sensitivity? And to my, you know, my sensitive temperament? Because I think often we tend to see it negatively, but just again, to think about, well, how is this enrich my life? Actually?
Effy
For sure, yeah. These are all great tools. And I agree with you with what you said earlier, that they're relevant to anybody who's either experiencing being highly sensitive, or around people, loved ones close. Friends, colleagues who are highly sensitive, I think it appeals is good for everyone. And I think with men specifically, there is that I think, actually fits in with the self compassion piece, maybe that additional layer of just making peace with with it, and not necessarily making it about the masculinity, but being a manly and the sort of the social narrative around that. I can imagine that might almost be like the first step, kind of separate the sensitivity from masculinity and wrapped in that is the self worth piece. Like I imagine that's probably where the work begins with all this stuff.
Tom Falkenstein
Yes. And I think I think you know, what you said is true in terms of also being aware that you're driving the social change, and when it comes to redefining redefining masculinity, by making that very narrow and highly problematic definition of masculinity broader and that is surely a good thing. I mean, I talk about this a lot in the first part of the book, you know, the, how problematic are those those norms those internal internalized norms are the more we have those traditional masculine norms internalized, the more likely we are to develop a depression in life for example, so by by being a little bit more about holding your head a little Hi, I'm being a little bit more self confident about being highly sensitive as a man and going out there in the world. I think you change the you're part of that change and you bring together that you can be masculine and sensitive. It's again it's a multiplicity, you know, you can be this and that land and that is, I think, hugely important first step.
Effy
Yes. Yes. I love that. I love that. What a great conversation Tom, thank you so much. Thank you. To connect with Tom focus, dine and check out his work jump on Instagram @tom.falkenstein. Or visit his website hsp-eu.com. You can find his book The highly sensitive man on the curious Fox bookshop at https://bookshop.org/a/88474/9780806539331 Check out the new episode drop email from curious Fox in your inbox. Will you'll find show notes links mentioned on the show, along with other episodes, suggestions on identity and mental health that we think you'd love. If you're not getting those emails, you are missing out. So jump on our website. We are curious foxes.com and sign up to the newsletter. And of course, while you're there, check out blog posts and resources and reading lists, recommendations and more. You can weigh in on this topic and connect with other foxy listeners on our Facebook group fb.com forward slash groups forward slash curious Fox if you're hearing this right now, we think you must like the podcast and find it valuable. So please share it with a friend. Also quickly rate the show and leave a comment and subscribe on Apple podcasts are connect with the show wherever you're listening. This takes a few seconds of your time, but has a huge impact on us. To support the show. Join us on Patreon where you can find many episodes and podcasts extras in over 50 videos from educator led workshops. Go to patreon.com forward slash we are curious foxes. And let us know that you're listening by sharing a comment story or a question by emailing us or sending us a voice memo to listening at we are curious foxes.com This episode is produced by Effy Blue with help from Yağmur Erkişi. Our editor is Nina Pollack, who handles each episode with kindness and sensitivity. Our intro music is composed by dev sa we are so grateful for that work, and we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious and curious, curious and curious. Stay curious. Stay curious.
Jacqueline
Welcome to the curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex and relationships. My name is Jacqueline Mislaa.
Alright, so we are Are we are we officially galavanting now? Yes, so we have the Galavan has begun.
Last week was my birthday. And in honor of both me and pride, my partner and I were galavanting around the village in New York City. And after some pizza and cocktails, we set out on our first destination of the evening,
we are galavanting towards cubbyhole. And I turned 42 yesterday, and this is gonna be my first time at coffee all. And you have visited 42 times. I mean, I
Alexis
feel like I'm gonna come home like 42 years.
Jacqueline
Because you would promise yourself you would not be old and going to
Alexis
be I don't want to be like the mayor of coming.
Jacqueline
And just be
Alexis
I was in my early 20s, I would go there. And that was what I thought was an older woman, probably in retrospect, was in her early. I was like, wow, I was like, that's different to see. And they were like, oh, yeah, that's the mayor of Cubby. And I was like, okay, and I was like, I'm never gonna be that.
Jacqueline
And yet, here I am working. But that's because I've asked you to go would you go without me? Would you have gone otherwise?
Alexis
Only if somebody like asked me to go, yes. Somebody was like, Hey, you want to go? But I would go but like, grudgingly, like, I'm actually wondering how my face is gonna look.
Jacqueline
There fewer than 25 lesbian bars in the United States, and only three in New York City, gingers in Brooklyn and Henrietta Hudson and cubbyhole in the West Village. I asked her to take me there because even though cubbyhole was born only a few years after I was, I've never been there. She on the other hand, went to the bar often when she was in her 20s. But there
Alexis
was a time that I do go to coffee. And I met some girl. And she I like introduce myself, whatever. And she goes, Oh, so you're Alexis. And I was like, No. I was like, what? And she was like, Oh, I've heard about you. And I was like, I don't even know. I don't even know. I have no idea. And I was just like, What the fuck, but it was kind of like flattering. And I was like, Yo, my name is just, I just hope it was like, good.
Jacqueline
Like, what happened after she said, I heard about you. Is she drawn to you? Or was she was like, Oh, I gotta avoid.
Alexis
I honestly, I probably felt you're like
Unknown Speaker
I slept with her.
Alexis
No, I think I was trying to sleep with her. And she was like your Alexis and I was like I've been made. Made.
Jacqueline
I didn't come out until I was in my 30s. That is when I finally realized that my attraction to women went beyond simply thinking that they were beautiful and charming, but that I wanted to kiss them, sleep with them, and be in relationship with women. This realization was a challenge, due to the fact that I was married to a man in a monogamous relationship. And I spent my waking hours either at work or at home with my husband and our daughter. And I won't bore you with the details of what came next because there are plenty of other episodes that unpack the aftermath of that realization, which came alongside the recognition that I was, and I've always been polyamorous by nature. Needless to say, it was the first time that I had to take a hard look at the life that I had built, and reckon with why that life did not honor all of me. It's not the only time that I've been forced to reevaluate my life and determine what needed to shift in order to honor my evolution. But it was the first and one of the most significant realizations of my life. And I was speaking to a friend recently who is going through a divorce. And she also started to date women and explore non monogamy and she said that she thinks that lesbianism is the new midlife crisis. While she's joking of course, it's true that there are some cultural shifts that are taking place. And I'm not just seeing this amongst my friends. My tick tock FYP is filled with sis women We thought that they were straight until they landed on lesbian tic toc. And there are tons of articles about how people and relationships did not come out of COVID the same way that they went in. In my opinion, three things have happened to produce this reckoning. First, quarantine and isolation had us all pause, reflect and reevaluate in a way that our busy lives did not allow before. It was easier to ignore that inner ache that was telling you that something was missing when you filled your day with meetings and errands and the gym and family gatherings and social events. But the stillness forced upon us by COVID made a lot of people finally confront their deep knowing and listen to the parts of themselves that they had ignored. Second, seen Gen Z, push back on every social norm, and fully embrace gender fluidity, relationship anarchy, and prioritizing life before work has been a shock to the system for Gen X and millennials who didn't realize that there was another way to be. We didn't know that we were allowed to do that. And frankly, when we were growing up, we weren't watching other people explore options for go marriage and kids and create more unique, intentional lives. It's creating a sense of possibility that not a lot of us had seen before. Third, the me to movement, stripping of reproductive rights and shifts in political climate have made women confront the narrative around the role that women play in the world and recognize the life choices that we've made based on the cultural norms that we've been soaked in. Many of us disembodied ourselves from our sexuality, because we were trained to repress it. And now, we no longer want to be tamed. Sis women are certainly not the only ones who are coming to terms with their sexuality and identity. Later in life. Effie and I have had conversations with tons of gay, trans bisexual, asexual, non monogamous people who did not explore, reveal or accept those parts of themselves until they were in their 30s 40s 50s or 60s, people with established lives, partnerships, families careers, who had to reckon with what honoring that truth would mean for their lives. It's one thing to build a life and relationships that allow for choice and evolution. It's quite another to have to dismantle the life and relationships that you've built, in order to build something new. How do you evolve without losing your marriage or your family or your social group, there's fear of being judged or alienated, a fear jeopardizing the life that you've created for some unknown alternate path. And I remember that moment. So clearly, the moment when I knew that I couldn't ignore the parts of myself anymore, and was willing to risk losing some of what I created in order not to lose myself. It felt like suffocation and terror, and anticipation, and possibility, and resentment, and regret, and relief, guilt and curiosity, and hope. It was the moment when I was finally ready to trade my mask for a mirror. And a lot has changed since that moment. But I still confront those feelings pretty regularly. I still am learning to accept the different pieces of myself and trying to figure out how those pieces can fit into my life or how my life has to shift to fit all of me. And all of this is particularly acute during pride month. Every June since my mid 30s has been a reminder of all that I missed by not coming out earlier, the parties and hookups in the bathroom bar, the wild nights and one night stands, the experiences and mistakes that folks get to make in their 20s I missed it. I got into a relationship with my ex husband in college with my wife shortly after my husband and I separated and then got into another relationship with my partner shortly after my wife and I opened up and I started dating. So now I'm 42 and I'm trying to capture some of what I missed at 22 Which brings us back to Covey. So I asked why
don't go back you said because you have a lot of bad decisions a lot of sleeping with people.
Alexis
Yeah, a lot of bad decision. A lot of just I don't know what a seeking behavior on my part. So it's just I'm in like a different place now. I guess it'll be interesting. Like, since I'm not doing that seeking behavior anymore. Like what it would be like, but I honestly just feel like that would kind of be like outnumbered by like, a bunch of 20 Somethings you know, it wasn't fun. Um, yeah, I feel like I always had a good time at companies.
Jacqueline
I hear you saying reflecting back bad choices, lots of sex because when I saw those things, I never had that period. So you like got it out of your system and are like, I don't need to revisit that. But I never was there and The first place
Alexis
I mean, not really going to be their second.
Jacqueline
But that's what I mean. But I feel like I missed out on something.
Alexis
I mean, yes, that that couldn't be the case.
Jacqueline
I missed out on all the link. Like I didn't realize that like girls, all the girls flirting that could have happened. I mean,
Alexis
the girl shirt and can still happen. But the thing with you know, places like cubby Is that like the demographic can be like really young.
Jacqueline
Yeah, that's true.
Alexis
Whereas Stonewall more of a mixture, as far as like,
Jacqueline
yes. All right, well, we're gonna go to coffee because it is on my list. My lesbian bucket list is Yeah, and then we'll go to stop. Okay.
When we come back, we're gonna go back in time to revisit a conversation between Fe and AI, about what it means to come out later in life. And the three things that we can all do to release the external messages and internal fear that are holding us back from being who we truly are. Stay tuned.
Effy
folksy friends, it is time for some audience participation. We have three fun, quick and easy ways for you to be involved with Jacqueline me in the podcast, and help us challenge the status quo in love, sex and relationships. First, we're doing a call for your funny sex stories. Back in episode 153 Jason Silva and I had a great laugh about her attempts to talk dirty while looking at with people in her travels around the world. And her hilarious miscommunication during one steamy encounter in Spain. You reached out to us to say you love that story, and wanted to hear more sexy mishaps. So here's your chance to be on the show. Get your Voice Memo app and record your funny sexy story and send it to us to listening at we are curious voxels.com And you don't need to include your name if you don't want to.
Jacqueline
Second in my four and a half minutes of spare time I opened an Etsy shop. It's a place for me to create products that I want to wear and use from bags for femme lesbians and bisexuals who want to make it very clear that we are not just allies, to shirts that declare that I'm with him and her to tote bags that proclaim that I've got 99 problems, and white hetero mono normative patriarchy is basically all of them. The Etsy shop is filled with fun pieces, each designed to help us challenge the status quo and celebrate the beauty of pride. Use code podcast to get 10% off through the end of July. And if you're in the US get free shipping straight to your door, visit the roots and wings gallery on Etsy or find the link in our show notes or in my Instagram bio.
Effy
Finally, one huge way that you can support the podcast is by connecting with the show on your favorite podcast app. This can be a hot favorite or a Follow button. Also, reading the show and leaving a review on Apple Spotify or wherever you listen. We don't have advertisers or sponsors, so we rely on our community of listeners to spread the word. If you enjoy the show, or if any of the episodes have meant something to you write a quick review as soon as this episode is over.
Jacqueline
Remember that the best way to stay contact with us is via our newsletter, where you get new episodes, drop emails, monthly digest and themed emails, where we curate and share all of our episodes about opening up jealousy, sex and more. Jump on our website. We are curious foxes.com and sign up for our newsletter. And while you're there, check out all the blog posts, resources, reading lists, recommendations, and so much more. Welcome back. So a few years ago, if you and I sat down to swap pride stories and talk about how we were each grappling with coming to terms with who you are in the midst of many options and labels and consequences of shifting our understanding of ourselves as we get older. For me, that was coming out later in life. And for Fe it was about understanding if and where she fit into the umbrella term of queer. We talk about three phases that we experienced, letting go of the external expectations that defined who we're supposed to be and the internal fear and doubts that keeps us silent. We introducing ourselves to the people in our lives, and finding community to support us on our journey so that we don't fumble and celebrate alone. The conversation starts with Effie talking about the first time that she participated in Pride celebrations in New York City. Enjoy.
Effy
Yes, yes. So my first notable experience in New York City when I moved here a decade ago was pride.
Jacqueline
Huh, what an introduction.
Effy
Right? Right, because I arrived we're still reading you, like, um, ya know that that would have been cute, but no it will I arrived in New York City in 2010. I celebrated my birthday, my 30th birthday. And then we plunged into a snowy, cold New York winter where I spend most of my time trying to wrap my head around my corporate job at the time and new city trying to get the office set up and everything else. And then as sort of the winter pass, and I got settled and spring was here, I managed to make some friends. And one of them a dear, dear friend of mine, his name is Patrick. He's still a great friend of mine. Somebody I care deeply invited me to march at pride with his church. So the church that I got to march with is St. Francis Xavier's, the priests are all Jesuit. And they feed 1000, homeless every Sunday in the basement Hall for many, many, many years. And yeah, a good friend of mine been attending there for years super LGBTQI, friendly, really nice folk, I got to meet them. I'm not religious in any way, shape, or form. We talked about this a lot in previous episodes. It's such a wonderfully contrast experience to be marching at a pride march with the church. At the time, I knew what pride was. But I hadn't seen the Pride celebrations that happens in the city. I knew what it was. I've seen it on TV. I just hadn't fathom the size, the extent the joy, the exuberance, the diversity, the sheer mass of people that pride brings out. And I at the time I you know, I wasn't wearing I'm here today, I was what I call a seeker, which a lot of our listeners are, I was a seeker, I knew that what I had looked good for me, but didn't feel good for me. I was struggling with my identity. I was struggling with my lifestyle. I was ticking all the mainstream boxes, but wasn't feeling great. And I was just like, so focused on work. That's all I would think about all I would do, I'd really identified with the job that I was doing. And pride was that moment for me that I saw a glimpse of something that I was seeking. It wasn't like clear vision. I didn't have this like epiphany, but I was like, Oh, okay. Like there are masses of people here who are making different lifestyle choices. They are stepping away from the status quo, and they are living their best lives and they're celebrating and there's something here that maybe I don't need to cling so hard to what I know is like, right, you know, in air quotes, so it was definitely it was definitely like, a moment to mark. And that was the Pride March of 2011. That made me decide that I should stay in the city and check it out for a while.
Jacqueline
Yeah, I mean, if that. That was your year, like welcome into the Europe but a beautiful welcome.
Effy
Yes, I felt welcome.
Jacqueline
Yeah, that sounds beautiful. So I've been going to pry a group in New York City been going to pride march for almost two decades. And I would go every year as an ally to be a part of the energy and the experience of the music and the color. And to infuriate and to celebrate amongst the 1000s of other folks who congregated across Manhattan, in everything from jeans to G strings. And I remember the heartbreak that it felt like in our collective chests after the murders of gay and lesbian and trans citizens and advocates. I remember the electricity that was in the air after gay marriage became a federal rights. Yeah, I would go with friends. I went with my ex husband, we went with my daughter and pride march to Pride March was not new for me. Until it was. I was in my early 30s In my first same sex relationship with my now wife, and suddenly, it felt like the colors of the rainbow in the flag represented me. And the rebellion at Stonewall meant that now I could walk in that parade holding her hand. I've attended the march in the parade ever since and have marched in it and well, until COVID hit but with the growing awareness that it felt like I was late to the party, like late to the struggle, and I know I'm not the only one I know for those of us who are, you know, late to lesbian delayed gay tardy to trans. We, we may feel like we have a lot to learn. And of course I'm joking, right because whenever whenever you're whenever with any of us are Our truth aligns with who you are. That is the right time. And sometimes those of us who came out later in life, we feel like we are at a disadvantage for entering into this awareness in this courage in this exploration in this truth later in life.
Effy
Yeah, people often talk about the coming up process when you're a kid, right? You're a kid, you're a teenager, maybe in your 20s. But when you're in your 30s 40s 50s 60s, I've heard people talk about coming out to their parents, and what about coming out to your, to their kids. So coming out can come in all different shapes and sizes. And I think there are pros and cons for each age group, right. And so I think when you're coming out younger, and depending on of course, what kind of family you're coming out to, right, if you know that your parents just got to be supportive to you. That's beautiful, right? Coming out young to a beautiful supportive family and like really feeling into your identity and making friends and finding community and feeling fully self expressed, right? All those things would be your ideal situation. But I think it can also be super dangerous, right? If you don't have that if you don't have a supportive community and family, when you're young, knowing that you can take care of yourself that you're going to be kicked out or stranded and all those things, it can be really hard coming out at a young age versus when you come out older, I think yes, you some people do miss feel like they missed out like they weren't a part of the sort of the bigger, cohort, bigger community for a long time, they feel they may feel like they have a lot of catching up to do or they missed out on things. At the same time, I feel like you're coming out from a safer place where you're sort of established within yourself, you don't really need anyone to prove you that is directly linked to your sense of safety and security. It's interesting, I think, coming out is hard in general. I think both sides, whether you're older or younger, have their own challenges.
Jacqueline
You know, in the work that I do with folks, particularly around like in the career space, there's this idea of going from expert to novice. And so when folks are going through career transitions, and they've been in a particular career for a long time, they're an expert in that space, and they're like, now I want to do something creative. Now I want to do something different. The hardest leap is to then be a novice. And that is what my experience felt like coming out in my 30s was, I knew how to be a straight white, and mother. And like now learning how to navigate you know, the queer space like I remember there were times I had to ask for glossary moments. I was like, What is a U haul mean? And what's a pillow princess? And what's a switch? And there were times that I would say something and my sister who is queer would laugh and be like, That is such a heteronormative thing. And there was there wasn't still like a lot of social conditioning that I needed to unpack and unlearn. And it was interesting, because I actually I helped my sister, my brother and I helped my sister with her coming out process when she was in her early 20s. And, you know, helped her tell my parents and helped her kind of allow herself to be in her truth. And yet when it was my time, and now 10 years later, it took me months to tell my parents and I was a grown ass adult with with a child, right, like I to your point I was established in who I was. But that that is the challenge, right? The challenge was that I was an adult, and that people expect me and adults to be fully formed and somewhat predictable. And now I was introducing a new part of myself. And I think that sometimes that's the delay in coming out is because you could not feel like it was possible to share your truth or frankly, even recognize your truth when you were younger, because of your home because of your religion. Because of the times
Effy
also maybe because it's not so clear to you, right? We think of sexuality to be such a clean cut. People feel straight people feel gay you. I feel like it's not so mean that the Kinsey scale is the Kinsey scale for a reason, right this scale. And I feel like if you're not clearly on one side, that could also be a reason why you just don't come out to later because you're like, Well, you know, like, I like the opposite sex I and my broader culture tells me that's okay. And I don't necessarily dislike, you know, my opposite sex. So why, why look even further. I think we just need to recognize that for some people, it's just not that clear cut.
Jacqueline
Yeah, yeah. For those who identify like myself included as bi or pan, where you could be attracted also to the opposite sex, then it could be easier to stay engaged with the opposite sex if you feel like there's resistance in toward it in order to have same sex relationships. And so that could be true Oregon, it just to your point, it could not feel safe. I mean, we didn't have the same LGBTQ AI role models when I was young. I mean, there was There was no quiere alphabet that did not exist when I was young. So those letters had no meaning when I was growing up. And so it was challenging for me to even vision that out. Like, I knew I was attracted to girls, but girls are beautiful. So why wouldn't I be? But does that mean I want to be in relationship with them that I wanted to have sex with them? Like that came later in life?
Effy
Sure. I also think that I mean, I remember LGBT, those days, it was LGBT, the QA, the QA, AI, plus, we're in a part of it, but it was mostly for warnings, right? I mean, I remember learning about LGBT as a part of the HIV crisis. So it was always like warnings and something going wrong within the community. It was never I didn't learn of it as a, as something that you celebrate, or an identity, it was more like, warning, or something wrong crisis, you know,
Jacqueline
yes. And even I mean, the the origins of pride are not necessarily around celebration, there were struggle Bellion fight to just exist. And you know, that has that has evolved into also being proud of who we are in parallel to fighting for our right to exist. But to your point, it was really around struggle and strife. I mean, I have the same issues when it when I was growing up related to my ethnicity, like being Hispanic, particularly in New York City, at that time felt like I was supposed to, you know, be at a certain socio economic status, and certain schools and certain neighborhoods, and like the world had prescribed out to me, Oh, you're Hispanic, like, that's too bad, you're not going to be as successful. And so that was a part of myself, too, that I was like, oh, no, like, so this part of me is bad. And I'm a woman. And that's bad. And I'm young. And that's bad. And I like girls. And that's like, there's so many things that I, you know, was was fighting against. And so then I had to unravel all of those things in my 30s, which was great to your point, I had a job, then I didn't live with my parents, like, there were certain things. But it was also really challenging, because people thought that they knew me, I thought that I knew me.
Effy
Right? I think that's the thing, right? I don't know, I haven't really had a clear coming out of anything, where I sort of sat my parents down, sat anybody down and said, Here's my identity. So I don't know, I feel like for me, it's an ever evolving, ever, ever growing thing. I feel like my identity is like ever growing, I will changing. And because of the type of relationship I have with my parents, I left so young and I was boarding school and then left and the guy, I haven't really had a connection to get a connection with my parents as I was 13. So and because I've always done things that challenge the status quo, they kind of I think they've stopped expecting the conventional things. So I don't feel like I've ever had to come out. But I think along the way, like coming out to myself was was really hard. Like realizing that I don't want to be in a corporate world that I want to, like, I want to come out of that cookie cutter world, or that that I'm not so straight. And we're going to talk about that. But like, what does that really mean? And all that kind of stuff is I think coming out to yourself is harder, maybe when you're older, because like you said, You've been a certain way for such a long time, that you've kind of feel like that. That's it now like that's who you are, and you can't really you can't really change that. I'm curious knowing that you are safe. And then you are independent and interdependent and had a support network, and we're adult and you had a career and you had a kid and all that kind of stuff. What was in the way of you coming out to your parents? I'm curious.
Jacqueline
Yeah, I mean, I think is rooted in fear, they're not going to love me anymore. We're not gonna have the same report anymore, we're not gonna have the same relationship, they're gonna see me differently. Now. They, you know, I came from a religious background, they are going to fear that my soul will be damned to hell. And I don't want my parents to feel that sense of fear for me. And just what does that mean? Because that also meant the devolution of my marriage. So I was I was married to my ex husband. And we had separated and I had moved with my daughter to Manhattan. And we were living on our own except we weren't really, my wife was living with us at the time. We were living together for like a year. I mean, certainly, we weren't married yet. But we were living together for about a year before I told my parents. And so my mom would come by, or my dad would come visit. And I'd be like, Yeah, you got to go somewhere else tonight. Because they didn't know and I was like, at some point, I'm gonna tell them this hella, but I felt like I was like 14 or 15. And it was really rooted in and I think there's other things that I think my my family, you know, there's my father who shares everything like, you know, is emotions on his sleeves, and it feels like too much. And there's my mother who shares nothing, and you don't know anything about her. And so those are my two role models say nothing at all, keep everything private and in the closet, or share everything and overexposed and so I didn't really know where the middle ground and that was. And I think actually what was interesting for me, too, is I think that my transition was both my coming out was both confirmed Using and maybe more digestible because I was attracted to androgynous women, which you know, my wife is pretty androgynous looking and so you know, I've said that my my relationship with androgynous women was like my, my gateway binds pansexual like gay a y te
Yong. But it did feel like like, this is a smooth kind of like, stepping stone into it. But I think that also made it more confusing because it was like, alright, well, she kind of looks like a man, like, why wouldn't you just be with a man. And of course, that's
Effy
very normal.
Jacqueline
I was gonna say there's so much that makes you know her different. But what I realized also, and this was also true for me from the very beginning, it actually wasn't about her being a woman or man or anything like that, I mean, identify as pansexual, and that it is really the person and my connection to that person, regardless of the gender identity, and the body, you know, body shape and size and type that I'm attracted to. I do think that that made it harder. But that was it. I think that there was fear there. And I also, you know, we you've heard me talk about change before. And I think that self change goes through three different phases. And I certainly did as well, the first phase is letting go of the external expectations that define who you should be. And that takes a lot of like, again, religious unpacking, social unpacking familial unpacking, just to let go of those expectations, then there's navigating through the fear and the doubt that convinces us that we will fail that we will be alone that we will be unlovable if we reveal who we really are. And then there's the process of going through the reintroduction of saying, I am now this, you thought I was this. And I'm this and I'm still a little bit of that, but I'm also listening to, and being open to going through that process again and again and again, over the course of your life because we continue to evolve. The next step is to get involved in the community. Yeah, you're
gonna need help. You're gonna need support,
you're gonna need help, you're gonna need people to ask questions to that have no judgments, that when you say something, as I did many, many times, and sometimes still do that is wildly heteronormative, that someone gently will be like, hey, yeah, no, that's not that's not the thing we say. We're gonna say, you know, you're gonna say this instead. But have that I mean, I wrote an article, it's on our website called, I think it's first time lesbian experience, something like that. But essentially, when you are going to be with a woman for the first time, and all of the fear that goes around that, like tips and some steps to like, navigate through that first experience. There's another article up there called I'm sorry, my truth has caused you pain, which essentially, again, is preparing for the conversation and knowing that what you may say, that is your truth, it may hurt somebody, and how do you prepare for that? So but I share that to say there too, you know, those are just two resources that are on our website. But there are so many, I mean, there's a National Resource Center on LGBTQ aging, and we can put some links actually, in the show notes of places where people can get some resources and some community, but find people that you trust and clear up your social media feeds, you know, find other folks where there's representation. I mean, Effie, you talk about this all the time, the need for permission and inspiration we get when we see other people who are living their lives differently than us. And we're like, Wait, that's how you can seek out stories from others who are coming out later in life. And then you know, you can be kind to yourself, because you're gonna hear about people's struggles, and you're gonna see their successes, and you're gonna see opportunities, but that comes from changing your noise that comes from being engaged in other community. And then and then also seek out help if necessary, you know, coaches and therapists, and it's a big these are big life changes, you do not have to do this on your own.
Effy
And I would add in there, get comfortable with the discomfort of it all. And at the top of that list, get comfortable with telling people this is new to you. Because I find that that kind of honesty will allow people to choose if they choose to meet you where you're at, right? If you just tell people listen, I'm just figuring this out, you know, this and this happened or like I just came to it or I've been holding it down for so long. You know, I'm these are my first first experiences. I think having that kind of honesty, that kind of vulnerability will allow people to meet you where you're at. And I hopefully support you and not judge you and all these things. And I would say seek community before you seek dating. Seek community before you seek romance. Let's put it that way. Because I think having a safety of a community knowing your way around will eventually I think will get you to sort of get you to meet people that you want to date. But sometimes I think people just jump straight into dating and romance. I find same with you know becoming non monogamous or opening up your relationship. Often people have someone in sight by the time they are thinking about non monogamy and it just changed Use the dynamics I think if you are interested in, you know, all these different ways of living and loving, find community first. And I think with the supportive community as you get lay of the land, the rest will follow.
Jacqueline
Yes, start off easy. Start off with social media, start off maybe with the music that you're listening to, like, start to find the places where you're spending your time and change the noises there. Change your noise, yes, then you can move to what is the event that I'm gonna go to what is the book that I'm going to read what's you know, and start to just dip your toe in many waters and know again, this is this is the invitation for you. Here's the call to action is once you dip your toe outside of the prescription, once you say, actually, I'm not going to default to all of these things that has been prescribed to me. Your world is open to you. Try all the things. Go go for the buffet, try this, try that, eat a little more of this, decide you're going to put that one back, do it ethically do it with conversation, do it responsibly, do it consensually, but allow yourself at any age to just rediscover who you are. Yes.
Effy
As we were preparing for this podcast, one of the things that we're talking about is like what imagine a world where coming out isn't a thing. Right, then that coming out process is that because there is an assumption of what is and therefore you have to come up against
Jacqueline
you have to make an announcement to say I am not that. Exactly,
Effy
exactly. So it's like you we assume you know we joke about is like coming out of street like what would it be like if you had to announce that you're street street people don't have to announce that that street because there's an assumption. If you're not straight, you have to come out. And what if we were living in a world that that wasn't such a thing, that there was this there wasn't this one moment one, you have to make a decision to you have to sit some people down that love you that, you know, that is a big part of your bigger identity of your community and tell them what decision that you've made, and then go out there and like execute and still stay within that within that framework where that that's not how we were set up. But that when you were ready to explore relationships and love and connections when the right person came along, you explored what was available. And when you wanted to introduce somebody to your parents or whomever you wanted to sort of introduce them to make them a bigger part of your life. That's when you introduce people and that there wasn't this like preliminary conversation around who you're attracted to that you have sort of put into words beforehand, right? Yeah.
Jacqueline
I think we can get there. I think
Effy
honestly, the Gen Z's Right, exactly.
Jacqueline
I'm just gonna say like the kids nowadays, like I do, I like look at you know, what my daughter is looking at it, you know, on tick tock or the you know, her role models think that there are now very public more useful role models that are making that reality that you have described more possible, not everywhere in the country, I want to recognize that we are in the coasts in the coasts of you know, the United States. And I know that many of our listeners are not in the United States. So this will vary based on the community that you're in.
Effy
Folks in Europe are like we're over this.
Jacqueline
Americans continue to use identity politics.
Yeah. So
I think that that's possible. But yeah, what kind of world would that be?
Effy
Yeah, I mean, I don't know that. I feel like that's a word that's worth exploring. I can hear among our audience who I know are going, I'm assuming an assumption that they're going no, no, no, no, we must recognize the queer alphabet, we must name being, you know, whatever your sexual orientation is, because that's important for things like resource allocation, and policy and protection. And yes, all the things that the LGBTQ community need. Yes, I think recognition means that you're allocated things, and you're considering law and all that kind of stuff. So yes, and coming out is really important in normalizes these choices. So yes, to all of that, 100% agree that I don't think we should just erase everything, and not make it a thing. So I want to just recognize that in one hand, and on the other hand, I want to dream of this world where we don't even need to do that anymore, that we really do recognize individuals as individuals, and we don't need to have laws to protect them because it is it is what it is like that, it becomes the status quo. And then we can challenge it. But that that I want to like I'm definitely dreaming of this world idealized world where you just like introduce the person that you love, or the people that you love to the other people that you love. And you know, love life goes on love goes on, you know, my Pollyanna my pollyannish dreaming of the world. Yeah, I
Jacqueline
love it. I love it. I mean, you and I talk often about like the change that's possible. And I am I wouldn't say I'm more pessimistic, I would say a more steady change management and I was a community organizer went to school. Yeah, exactly. I think that it's like yes, Jen. Relations and generations from now maybe we're gonna get there. I think in between it's there's still struggle, there's still dialogue, there's still representation, there's still celebration. I think you were much more optimistic around the timeline of when we're gonna get there, then I don't
Effy
know, I hang out with your kid. And I'm like, oh, one generation, like, by the time she's like, her generation is in power. I feel like we'll be there. That's, yeah,
Jacqueline
I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful there's, you know, systemic prejudice is really embedded in there. So like, there's one thing about creating some social norm shifts, but really creating systematic change, I think is going to take
into your point around around identity, I think I've gone through a bunch of different labels over the course of I think it was, you know, bisexual and pansexual. And I've shared in a soapbox moment that at some point, I stopped saying pansexual, because I would get too many questions or too much challenge, like, do then sleep with this person and that person, and it's like, so many questions. So now I've landed in queer, I was resistant to queer for a long time. You know, when I was growing up, queer was not a positive term that didn't feel comfortable for me. But now, I feel like that best represent because essentially, it's like, not straight, it just boxes me into or like, frees me up, I should say, from the box, and then don't have to find anything else.
Effy
So you've landed on queer? Mm hmm. Yeah, I continue to remain in the air. I don't know I can't I feel like I should be landing in queer. I have a resistance. Right? We talk about this. We talked about this. We talked about this. Often I do have resistance to identifying as queer because I'm not straight. When people do ask me my, you know, nifty funny quip of an answer is, you know, people asked me what my sexual orientation is, I'll say particular. Because that is the truth that I am particular. I am particular. But I think it's also because in my head, this is the story that are the beliefs that I hold. I think to be quick to be queer isn't just about being not strict. I know people who are not straight, but I don't necessarily think they don't identify as queer. And I think that queerness is a political statement, as well as a sexual orientation, sexual identity. That's kind of I think, where I find myself, I'm thinking and as I reasonably explore, and I kind of keep an eye on an ear out for those things. I'm finding the queerness as a political expression, if you will, and I sometimes struggle to align with the politics of queerness. Not the sexiness of queerness. Right. So it's not really I think, I think that's where I struggle with queer. And, and then anything else just kind of feels not enough, right? Because I like how queerness is beyond just who you sleep with, but also who you like, who you align with, maybe. And I feel like sure who I sleep with kind of matches with queerness, who I align with, I don't know, like, maybe like 90 90% I'm still like 10% questioning things. So yeah, I feel like queerness is just I don't know, I'm not ready. I'm not ready. I don't feel like fully aligned, fully informed, fully made my main mind up about the politics and the the sort of the ethics of it,
Jacqueline
I think, yeah, I get that it makes sense to me, because I think I am fully aligned in that space. So I think that's why it like does dawn that because I think the work that I do outside of curious Fox, I think the way that I you know, the the way that I vote the things that I do align with that space. And so that makes sense. And I think that what we're talking about is interesting, because these are conversations that you have to have once that becomes a choice, right? When you once one decides to step out of the status quo of being straight or SIS or even married or monogamous, right and taking that step out of the prescription, then you have the freedom and more autonomy to determine what makes sense for you, and for your relationships. And then you get to have you have to ask yourself those questions. What are my What do I think about this? What should I be called? Who am I attracted to? What What am I going to put on my my Bumble, my OKCupid profile, like which box am I going to take? And that's beautiful that there's so much choice now, right that there's not like default and prescription. But there's also a lot of like self inquiry that needs to happen. And that again, can feel really overwhelming when you're supposed to be established. When you're older. When you're a professional when you have a family that now you're going through this thought process and you want to share this out with other folks. I mean, part of what I want to say to folks is he this is how I am this is who I am today. Come back and talk to me and a year from now. Like, I want the point is I don't want to be put into a prescription or default or conveyor belt anymore. And so then that means that I may shift and the things that I choose to do in the way I started choose to self Express. Do you feel like the queerness
Effy
label gives you that freedom? Do you feel like it gives you that enough of an ambiguity? Which were essentially what it is? This is what I'm hearing anyway. And I and I feel exactly the same way. So it's like, what is the label that is clear enough so that people around, you know, people kind of know what you're talking about, right? You're not sort of saying, I am an purple lemon, right? Because then people were like, are we talking about vegetables? Right? You kind of want to, you want to get on the same page. So you want us you want to what is it? What is the label that you use that gets people on the same page as you? And then at the same time, it's ambiguous enough that it gives you a broad range of expression, movement, change room for evolution, and kind of freedom, if you will? I think that's essentially what what you're you're trying to shoot for? And that definitely what I'm trying to shoot for?
Jacqueline
Yes, yes. And that's means very specifically, right, so. So when I think about my wife, or my partner, they're like, you know, they're lesbian, like that. That's their the bucket that they fall when I think about
Effy
those people, you know,
Jacqueline
in each way, though, that feels I think each way feels freeing. For me, at least it feels like to know, definitively this is this is my bucket, this is my community, this is like, there's something that feels incredibly comforting in that. And I think those of us who've stepped out of the prescription of being, you know, heterosexual or cisgender, or like, they're, you're walking away from a cocoon in some way of norms that exist to not having to explain yourself and things like that. And then that opens you up, though, to a world of possibility. And so there's a part of myself that does kind of covet and longing for that real clarity of like this, this is the type of person that I like, this is the, but then I also love not having to choose, but that's my opinion, that's my personality, you know, I'm an antenna, or kind of person, I want all my options always available to me. And so, you know, my preference is not to have any box at all. And again, if you know, talking about those three phases, first, I have to go through the realizing that the expectation of the world is that I choose. And that who I was, was not about choosing a particular path, then I had to fight that internal fear and doubt that like, what the hell's gonna happen to me was someone gonna love somebody who's that wild, who's that free, and also super, like, straight laced. I'm like, I'm like the most conservative wild person that you will write like I my work and my I'm like the super most corporate person that you'll meet. And also just wild and free, I want to be silly and salsa dancing on a rooftop in Brooklyn. And the next I want to have a really serious and deep conversation with the folks who are tuning in about navigating through through change in difficulty, like, I want all the things I want all of those dimensions. And for me, queerness allows me to do all of that is to say, I get to choose any of the letters and any of the things, but it also means a responsibility for me to learn about all those things. Like I think that was one of the pieces in coming out later, is you are not just taking on this identity, because this is who you are. But there is an entire history there LGBTQI ancestors that have, you know, an advocates that have allowed us to live in certain ways and to express ourselves in certain ways. And so like, there's a reverence to that history that you have to take on and appreciate. So there's a lot of learning. And then all the terms are so many terms, I just
Effy
I think the label is also helpful, because I think the labeling or picking, picking your label is actually an effort to belong, right. I think the part that I find the hardest of not picking my label, not saying yes, I'm queer is, then you don't, I don't really know where I belong, right? I mean, and I can look at it in both ways I can I can look at it in a way that when I belong everywhere, because I don't belong in one place. Or I can say I don't want anywhere because I haven't quite aligned myself with anyone or anything. I think as I look at these identity politics across you know what's happening right now I see two things I see an effort to the to individuate so people are like bombarding themselves like old post. It's like I imagined I in my in my mind's eye I see people like walking around with like, covered in posts with like labels on them. And I think that's an effort to both individuate and belong at the same time. I think there's a there's like this effort to be like, I want to be different. I want to be you know, I want to be recognized as my fully self expressed self I want to be seen, I want to be heard with all the nuances and all these like decisions that I've made and And I want to belong, I want to be a part of this community in this community in this community, I think those are like, and when I think of like, not landing on my identity, is what you're saying, like, I don't get to have ancestors and history. And at the same time, I also don't feel boxed into things, you know. So, yeah, it's up in the air. For me, it's up in the air. And I think like I said, it's just boys on politics. You know, like, I just haven't landed on certain topics. Yeah. Well, I
Jacqueline
think this highlights it's a little bit of a choose your own adventure, right, you get to decide. I mean, I know that you've talked to me about your very good friend who also came out in his 30s. And same similar story to me, right, professional stablish. Right. And then chose to then define himself and talk to his family about it. And I know you said that that was a difficult experience for him.
Effy
Sure. Yeah. I mean, it's crazy. Because he's, you know, like you said, He's, so first of all, he's a white gay man, which actually is very close to the top of the food chain. Right? He's, he's a passing, good looking white, gay man who's established in his career, popular, great, great guy, a very, very close friend of mine, also a collaborator of mine. Yeah, I mean, he came out, I think, when he was like, 30, it wasn't like, there was a big, big sort of pushback from his family. And then he just like, went back into his closet. And then I should say, he, I think he lived, he started to explore living as a gay man in New York, by the way, which I think, you know, when you talk to him about it, he'll say, like, New York saved my life, because it gave him the space to be who he is. And one of the things that the city does. But yeah, I mean, he came out again, when he's 35, to his mom and to his brother. And it was like, you know, it was like hanging out with a teenager, you know, like, it was stressful. And I think, what I did notice, though, which is what I was saying at the beginning, is that he said he was in a place now where if his family didn't accept them, he knew that he wasn't a good place that he could carry on, it would be sad, he would mourn any kind of loss or any kind of deterioration of connection. But he was like, I am my own person now. And I have, you know, I'm, I'm free, and I have, you know, I can afford my life, I can take care of myself, I have friends, I have community, I have a career, like, I would love my parents to be on board, I would love my family to be on board and celebrate me and all that kind of stuff. But if they don't, that's not on me. That's on them. If they want to keep a connection with me, I'm open and willing, and don't want to do all the work if they don't, that's on them. Which, you know, that's the privilege of coming out later in life.
Jacqueline
Yes. Yeah, I think so i think so that you hopefully at that point, have built out a little bit more establishment a little bit more community, I think that what I hear from from that story is similar to what I've heard from folks that I've worked with who, at some point, you come to the point where you realize, I don't want to waste any more time, not being authentic to who I am. And I don't want to have regrets. I don't want to live 20 3040 5060 more years, in a way that is not aligned with my truth, and then have regrets. And so you come to a decision point where the fear of not changing overrides the fear of what's going to happen if you lose everything you have, because of that change. That you realize for yourself, if I stay in the life that I am in the construct, and I am and the relationship that I am right now, the fear of not fulfilling who I am as an individual that is actually more scary than if I lose everything. And so that moment, is what I understand, you know, from folks who I've talked to and worked with, this is the driving point. And it sounds like for him, he was like, I'm going to hope for the best. Yeah, I'm gonna hope for the best. And I gotta do and I have to do this for me. Yes.
Effy
And I'm not abandoning myself, right? If you want to abandon me great, but I'm not gonna abandon myself. And I think that is such clarity of thought, and anything that is, I mean, I talk about this idea of abandon yourself when we're talking about boundaries, and relationships and everything else. But I feel like this is such a clear demonstration of you make that choice, like you fear the other person abandoning you. And to avoid that you abandon yourself. And I think ultimately, we feel abandoned because we abandon ourselves. And anything when you make that decision, as hard as it is, to stick with yourself, to love yourself, to accept yourself, and to not abandon yourself. Other people say, I think when you're thriving, it's hard. But that's when you're thriving.
Jacqueline
Yeah. And be prepared. I mean, you know, we can talk about a few things that you can do if you're coming out later in life. And I think one of them is to be prepared. Be prepared to answer some questions. Be prepared to do some explaining because I think what happens is that folks know that the present is live. I know that the future will be created, but have a sense of their past is should be clear, right? The past is in the past, I know what happened, I understand it, I've processed it. And to now know that there is a secret what feels like a secret that has emerged that you are something that I did not know that you were creates family members and loved ones and partners to not question the past. And so they're gonna have lots of questions. So be prepared to ask questions and to answer questions. And that can be hard, because in the beginning, you may feel either really private about it, or you may feel defensive, because maybe you've just come to this realization and you feel not joyful about it. And their questions now make you are feeling like you should be defending yourself, or you don't have the answers yet why? Or you don't have the answers yet. So just to be prepared for that, whether or not you have the answers, be prepared that are going to be questions, be prepared, that maybe some folks will know already. And
oh, you know, I already knew I could tell, you know, this
is only secret to you know, that you may lose some friends. But hopefully you're gonna gain more once you once you have a sense of your community. And then I think part of the hardest part is actually once you go through that phase is now starting to seek out those relationships, right? Like, you are now dating for the first time in this world in your 30s 40s 50s 60s. And you have to go into dating apps. And you have to go to like now different types of clubs and bars and event like that's scary. Again, go from the expert to novice, like, we walked around in middle school with our trays in our hands looking for what cafeteria it's table to sit at. But when you're older, you think that you've moved past that. I don't No need to be in that awkward phase of looking for where to sit anymore. And yet, there you go. There you are. Getting out and having to date and then being like, what is it like to flirt with a man or a woman or transfer folk? Or like what what does that feel like to do that for the first time, and the vulnerability of that, of really knowing that this is what you want? And not knowing how to do it? That's scary as hell. Sure.
Effy
Also, let's just not be coy sex with the same sex person, or a trans person is a whole new like going back talking about going back to novice, you know, so not just the dating part of it, but should you develop a physical relationship. I know that that definitely was the thing for me the physicality of it, I felt like I was, you know, very nerdy knew what I was doing and one side and then I would just turn into a 12 year old boy, who's you like fumbling around, just like I have no idea what I'm doing. And that alone can get in the way of you exploring because you it's just being an adult, like it's okay being a teenager fumbling around. It's hard being an adult sex educator fumbling around, you lose your entire street cred. Professional cred, and it's just not sexy.
Jacqueline
You're like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm
Effy
sorry. But I mean, so yes, yes to everything that you're saying, like coming out late, you have to go back to those teenage awkward years, to figure out who to sit with how to flirt, how to be on dating sites, as a queer person, how to go on those first dates, how to have conversations with people that you're not used to dating and having sex with and then actually having sex with them. That's a whole other ballgame. So cut yourself lots of slack. Yeah, I love and we've said this on the podcast before. I love that now. adulting is a verb. I love that I love that adulting is a verb and it's not some threshold that you cross and now you are fully formed. And you know your shit, you have your shit together, you know all the things, you know who you are. And you're somehow operating in this like, you know, an end form for decades, decades, like you're a fully formed adult, and then you're that thing for decades, three kids makes no sense. adulting is a verb. It is and life is a practice. I think those things are just so important. And to allow yourself to continue to check in with yourself, continue to explore, continue to try things, you don't have to change. You don't have to actually commit to anything. You don't have to promise anything to anyone. At the beginning of curious Fox we always said no promises, no commitments, just curiosity. I think what we're saying here is to just remain curious through about throughout your life, including your identity, including who you are, who you want to be what you align with, what kind of inspiration goes you know, crosses paths with you find permission to be fully self expressed in a way that you're thriving.
Jacqueline
Whatever your truth is, that is right. Whatever your timing is, that is right. Whoever and however you choose to tell that truth. That is right, that there is no timeline, there is no thing you're supposed to do. Just allow yourself give yourself permission to continue to check in with yourself and tap into your with yourself and say, How am I feeling? What do I want? What do I need from this world? What do I want to explore? And then begin to carve out some space little at a time Um, to make that happen, right if you're you're hearing me now 10 years into my coming out and with my parents, and 30 with a child, you know, and being established in my career and so I can say these things now and I couldn't have set them as succinctly in the beginning. So just ease into it. You'll you'll get there if that's your journey. Special thanks to my wife for helping me learn and appreciate queer history. My partner Alexis for helping me experience queer life in New York City, and to hot honey burlesque at Stonewall who made my birthday weekend extra special. The music that you're listening to now, and at the top of the episode is actually from sinful Sundays at Stonewall. If you happen to be in the neighborhood, I would highly encourage you to check it out.
If you'd like to continue the conversation, ask a question or share your story. Then start a conversation on our Facebook group at we are curious foxes. You can also visit our website at we are curious foxes for episodes, blog posts, reading lists, resources and so much more all under the umbrella of love, sex and relationships. The best way to stay connected to all of this is via our newsletter digest, which you can also sign up for on our website. If you want bonus clips, mini episodes, online workshops and a lot more than go to Patreon at we're curious foxes. If you navigate on over to Patreon, you're gonna hear it not only behind the scenes, but some conversations that Effie and I felt like were too personal to put on air. If you enjoyed this episode, then please share it with someone who you think needs to hear it. If it has meant something to you if it entertained you if you learned from it, then leave a review for the podcast on Apple, Spotify, audible stitcher or wherever you're listening. And if you haven't already, please follow us or like us and leave us a rating. That is how the podcast algorithm decides whether it's going to recommend our show to others. We read every single comment and love hearing from you. So please leave a review. And finally, if you have questions or a story that you'd like to share, or if you want to share your funny SEC story for an upcoming episode, you can send us an email or voice memo to listening at we are curious foxes.com This episode is produced by Effie blue and Jacqueline Miss La with help from Jamar Turkish. Our editor is Nina Pollack, who recently got engaged to her partner. We are so happy for them and wish them a lifetime of joy. Our intro music is composed by Dave Saha, we are so grateful for their work, and we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends.
Effy
Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious, curious, curious, curious, curious, stay curious.
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