Ep 4: Metamours (Your Lover's Lover) (LIVE)
Art by @silverillustrations
If you are practicing non-monogamy, you likely have had to think about what kind of relationship you would like to have with your partner’s partner(s).
Metamour is the term used to describe the partner of one’s partner. While you may not have a romantic or loving relationship with your metamour(s), they can play an important role in your life. Whether you want to build a strong friendship with your metamour(s) or just want to be sure that your needs do not get sidelined as a result of your metamour(s), navigating through this unique relationship is an important part of consensual non-monogamy. Effy connects with a diverse set of Foxes to talk about Metamours on this live panel.
To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla on Instagram.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Effy
Hi, my name is Effy Blue. And this is the Curious Fox podcast. Curious Fox the community for those who challenge the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. Every month, we pick a theme anchored in these subjects. I invite a diverse set of panelists, and we bravely explore the theme through personal stories. This month, we tackle the multifaceted relationships with our metaphors. And Metamora is your lovers lover, your partner's girlfriend, your husband's boyfriend? It's the other in a non monogamous relationship. As I explained in this episode, to me, the metamodel relationship is the most interesting dynamic in non monogamy. There are no models or rulebook when it comes to these relationships. In fact, society tells us to expect threat, competition, conflict hurt heartbreak, when two people love the same person. And this month, Lola one of our panelists certainly share stories of a Metamora relationship gone wrong. We are human after all. We also hear from kitty, who lives with her two partners and we're not in a relationship with one another. She shares with us the domestic bliss they've achieved after a lot of communication, and a dedication to integrity, kindness and generosity. This theme of good communication is echoed by Amber who talks about winning over her reluctant metamodel through consistent outreach and warm communication. These are complex relationships with little to no roadmap to guide us. Whether you choose to have a relationship with your partner's partner or not. There's a lot to be gained from seeing the individual they are respecting and honoring their existence in your life and remaining open minded to all the possibilities. Curious Fox social are not and will never be the final word on any topic. We solely aim to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. Wink encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we look forward to your feedback. Enjoy the episode
so I will start by introducing my friend Amber here who's a non traditional relationship wedding planner. I would love for her to tell you tell a bit about herself.
Amber D'Amato
Thank you Effy. Hi friends my name is Amber D'Amato. I consider myself polyamorous. I have one non binary partner that is married to someone else. And then I also did a couple. And so I feel that right now in that role in those relationships. I feel like I'm thriving. I'm having a really good time. I love them very much I feel very loved and cared for and those relationships. And yeah, I feel like I appreciate curious Fox because I've been, I can't make it all the time. But I am very grateful to curious Fox and to Fe specifically for sort of teaching me a little bit how to navigate polyamory and ethical non monogamy. Because before these relationships, I was with someone for many years on and off in sort of a poly wave ish relationship. That was basically just like an open relationship, like minus the good communication. And I knew that I like always liked the idea of an open relationship. And I was okay with us, like, having like sex with other people. But I really wanted that communication too. And so when that longtime relationship ended, I met Effie and you know, we spend a lot of time together as friends but also just in her professional work. I really admire what she does. And so I feel like I've learned some really good tools and I feel like I'm grateful for them. Thanks.
Effy
And to my left, I have that he has this podcaster and dilutes when you're using the use linger. Yeah. Um, Lulu has an amazing podcast called Sex Ed. gogo, it's a live show and the live show, live show. It's a variety of sex ed variety show with q&a. So check that one out. But oh, I'll get you to enjoy yourself.
Dirty Lola
Hi, I'm Lola dirty, Lola, I go by either. Dirty if you're nasty. Yeah, I'm a entertainer. That's mostly what I do. And as far as the education that I like to dole out, I work in a sex shop in Williamsburg called shag. And I do a whole bunch of other stuff. I have like eight jobs filming a web series right now. It's just like a lot of stuff. People like what do you do? I don't know. A lot, a lot. So right now I'm in the midst of divorce, because I don't know how else to describe it until you sign the paperwork. So it's, I finally moved out. I was like living we were living together like Burton Ernie. That was like the running joke. Because we had two beds, because I'm not sleeping in the bed. You're fucking this new person in that me. So yeah, that's great. But I'm living on my own again, after 17 years we met. I know, I know, my whole goddamn life. Yeah, we met when I was 19. And I'm 37. And I just like, I'm like, Oh, I don't think I've ever functioned as an adult without adult supervision. I mean, that's what happens. You become like codependent and you're like, Hey, do this thing. And then I'm like, Oh, hmm, this is great. But also, I have a long distance partner who kind of came along at the tail end of my marriage ending who was amazing and really helped me get through 2018 in a less tragic way of like, not feeling loved. And I got to experience that oil and water part of polyamory where your life is falling apart, and everything is awful, but your heart is bursting and full of love. And it's happening simultaneously. And you're not here for crying in the shower, because you're so happy, or you're so sad. So that was my life, but 2018 But 2019 has been pretty fucking amazing, both career wise and love wise and coming out of a space of trauma and into this space of trust and like, Okay, you're not that person. And this isn't that relationship. So yeah, it's it's good times,
Effy
hopeful ending. Before I move on, do you want to give us a little bit of background how you got to be non monogamous?
It just happened? No. I was in Year 10, of the 17 year relationship and super unhappy and had an affair and realized during that affair that like, I didn't want to leave and it wasn't like, I don't love you. It was like, I'm kind of bored, but also like, looking for something else. And it was with a first boyfriend. Just like my life. It was a first the boyfriend who broke up with me in high school who I was the most in love with came back into my life to apologize like everything you ever wanted to get that letter from like that boy who like made you feel like shit. And they're like, I'm sorry. And I want to see when I saw you online and you look for good and you want to go have drinks that shit is poison. To say no, because you will have an affair. But that affair was It's what got me to kind of look inward and realize, like, I've been so unhappy because I was living a very poly kind of existence in my teens. And I had multiple partners, and I shut that down. Because I didn't know it was a viable relationship structure. And I thought I was just being super slutty. And that like, that perfect person will come around and take the sluttiness out of you and you get married and your kid and monogamous isn't happy. Because that's what they tell you. So so like through that. And it took us like maybe two or three years to like fully open and like maybe the first red flag should have been when he met the person my my ex left me for his Metamorpho we'll talk about that. But they to go be monogamous. But the first red flag should have been he never wanted to be polyamorous until he started dating her. And so and then it was like, okay, and I was like jackpot for me. But also, well, I'm just gonna go with it. But we had I mean, we had a fruitful time. And I always say I'm not upset. We're getting a divorce because it's not we don't need to be together. If we want to be different with different kind of relationship styles. I was upset about all the other crap we'll talk about tonight. But that's how I've gotten here. And I'm now I'm kind of redefining my poly and who I am as a single. Because it's like my, I have a boyfriend that lives in another state. Maybe I don't know how to call how to defy that. We'll see. We'll see.
Thank you. Thank you so much that we kind of dig into all that. And last but not least, of course, I'm gonna introduce kitty who is another podcaster loving without boundaries I thoroughly recommended, which was originally a blog, then became a podcast and then Katie started doing speaking and coaching and then wrote the book, July jealousy Survival Guide, which you probably have heard me recognize and recommend anybody asks me about jealousy. It's one of the resources that I want the top resources I recommend. And I'm so glad that she's here and drove all the way from Pennsylvania, from Washington, DC, DC. I'm sorry. Yeah, I was in DC area, and to be on the panel, so thank you for coming. Yeah.
Kitty Chambliss
Well, I'm super excited to be here. Really, really grateful. And I'm grateful, of course for Effy for having me and meeting everybody here. So just really psyched. My name is Kitty Chambliss. And you already know that I have my blog, I started living without boundaries about six or seven years ago now. And I had no idea what I was doing. When I created that blog, it was kind of more like a Live Journal, to figure out what the hell's going on with my feelings. And then eventually, I started the podcast about three years ago. And I'll just kind of go back in time, and just give you a little bit of my origin story. So I'm a recovering Catholic, so. So apparently, we have some other recovering Catholics here. I went to 12 years of Catholic school and so I, you know, all the agita that comes with growing up Catholic and learning Island to curse. So, you know, all the fucked up things, and I was taught, and in Catholicism, and it took me a really long time, I'm actually having my 50th birthday this year, which I can't believe it's taken. Thank you. It's honestly taken me my whole life really to undo a lot of what I was taught in Catholic school. So so, you know, I was brought up with a lot of shame and guilt around sex, and around what what confession is, and all of that, I never really understood all of that. So I didn't really start dating until college. And I started doing like, you know, what good girls were supposed to do. And I thought I was supposed to go find a man to marry and have the 2.5 kids and the picket fence. But you know, a funny thing happened on that journey, which is I became a cheating serial monogamist. And all my friends were getting married and doing the 2.5 kids. And here I was just kind of doing this upgrade thing I kept, like having one person over here, and then I was Ooh, he looks better. And if I if the, it's gonna be the rest of my life for this person, you know, I'm gonna, you know, go test that out before I leave, you know, Bachelor number one over here. And it became this vicious cycle. And I started to feel bad about it about all the cheating. And I also went through a period of depression. And just a really difficult time in my life. So eventually, I met the man who is now my husband. And he was also a former cheater. So we had some just really honest conversations around that. And we just decided at that time, I didn't know the word polyamory at the time, we just decided that we were going to define our relationship the way we wanted to not based on what society or anybody else was telling us to do. And eventually we did get married. And we just left out the forsake all others and didn't have a traditional wedding. We got married by a lighthouse by a gay man who got internet ordained for me. So and then eventually, we kind of entered non monogamy through the swinging community, which was a lot of fun, and also helped me not feel emotionally claustrophobic, which I liked. But eventually, a friend of mine introduced me to the book, the ethical sled. And pretty much my whole life changed after, after I read even the first three pages, and I just thought, you know, all these years, like, first, I was really joyful. I was like, Oh, my God, I'm polyamorous. And I just had no idea. But then there was another part of me that was really angry, because I thought, you know, why didn't anyone ever told me that this was even a possibility. You know. And so that partly led me eventually to be doing the work that I do now, because I'm very, very passionate about helping other people on their journey, no matter where they're at, if they're, you know, 20 years into the process and an adult or if it's a teenager, or somebody in college, I'm really passionate about helping other people get tools and you know, help them just get to not stay in the sock as long as I did, because I really struggled with depression and a midlife crisis for about five years. And it was awful, and I don't recommend it. So, so that's partly what led me here to create the blog and the podcast and become a coach and eventually to write the jealousy Survival Guide, which is in no small part from learning how to deal with my metaphors.
Effy
Yeah, and I'm, I'm also interested in your relationship today.
Amber D'Amato
Oh yes. Um, so I am still married to that same man. We met later in life. So so we've been married. We've been together for 15 years married for 12. And I also have my other partner, my boyfriend, if you want to call him that, who we've been in a relationship for three and a half years and he lives with us all. So he's lived with us for about two and a half years now. So it's just me and my two partners. They also have other partners, and I'm sure we'll get to that later. And our Furbabies.
Effy
And just for clarity, they're not in a relationship with each other.
Amber D'Amato
They are not they are both heterosexual. So I'm the pivot partner in our household.
Effy
And then are you cohabitate? Yes. Awesome. Great, awesome, awesome stories. I can't wait to dig in. And I do I have a few stories of a few questions that I want to kind of start things off with. Oh, actually, before I introduce myself, my name is Effie blue. I'm a relationship coach, I predominantly work with people who are curious about transitioning into or have hit roadblocks in open relationships. I do that by day. And when I'm not doing that I'm deeply committed to this community. And that's kind of what I do. And in terms of my own relationship, I co have it with a partner, and in the same apartment, and downstairs, my other partner and his wife live. So we all live in a building together, we are about to we're currently negotiating a furbaby. So we'll see it, we'll see how that goes. For me, metaphors are that midsommar relationship is probably the most interesting relationship. It's the it's the one relationship combination, or within all the relationships that could be in an open relationship, the one that I didn't think about when I started, when I discovered polyamory I you know, similar idea, similar sort of stories here. I was like, oh, like, that's me, and previously had a history of serial infidelity. She's done my partner's there was a lot of heartbreak and tears. And at some point, I decided I wasn't very good at relationships. And I sort of put everything on hold, and at the time poured myself into my career, which was great for my bank account, not so great for my soul. And eventually, when I discovered non monogamy, polyamory, non monogamy, and within that polyamory is a particular sort of style design, I realized that I wasn't, it wasn't that I wasn't good at relationships, I just wasn't good at a particular type of relationship. And that I could design a relationship that I could be good at, and I could thrive in. And that's kind of how I came to it. And when I did, I'm a nerd by nature. For me, everything starts with learning sort of put everything through an intellectual filter. And when I found that about, about polyamory, I just like read everything, went to all the workshops, spoke to everybody join all the groups, like learn, don't learn, think about everything, all the permutations like if I date somebody, what if they do somebody else? What if I do everything else, and the one relationship that I didn't think about was the, the Metamora relationship, my partner's partner and this one Metamora as your partner's partner, it just didn't occur to me that that was a relationship that existed and didn't even think about what it would look like. And the more I think about that, to this day, it remains for me, it remains to be the most fascinating part of polyamory, because if you look at society, if you look at most cultures, they tell us that if you if two people love the one person, it is essentially chaos. There's threat is it's considered to be threatening, it's considered to be full of conflict, heartbreak, heart ache, there isn't really there aren't really any positive stories of people, more than one person, more than person, one person loving the one person, any kind of anytime that story is told, it's always you know, somebody dies, you know, there isn't like, there isn't ever like they, you know, holding hands and Kumbaya, you know, and, you know, and especially for women, right? If you look at all the archetypes of women, if you think about it, it's it's always set up to be rivalry, right? So you have the wife and the mistress archetype. When you have you even have like, mother and daughter archetypes. Like there's so many archetypes are like mother in law and wife, right? These are like so many female archetypes where if two women loved one, man, it's just not going to be good, you know. And as I found my way into polyamory, I had a very, very different experience. And it was, it was one of the most healing my first Metamora was one of the most healing people in my life. I went to boarding school and all girls boarding school for six years. And I felt like I had enough of women and I was kind of I didn't have a great relationship with women. And I was a little afraid of them. To be honest, I was kind of a little afraid of my own kind. And I when I walked into that relationship, I was very tentative. I was very like, oh, what's gonna happen? I don't want to be threatening, I don't want to be intruding. I was very, very tentative. And she was incredibly open and welcoming and warm and kind and was kind of just sort of ready to catch me as I slowly leaned into that relationship. And as I didn't know, relaxed into it, she literally like scooped me up, you know, emotionally and sometimes physically. He was she like she shared so much for me and set this bar of like, what you can be like, what that relationship can what the potential is in that relationship. So I just lucked out with that with that that was like my entry in that relationship, the three of us has actually dissolved but she remains is one of my best friends and still somebody that I seek a lot of comfort from. And somebody who's very special to me, my current, it's a more the very different relationship. It's I'm again, lucked out, it's a very positive relationship. But it is very different. She and I are very strong minded, you know, autonomous people that have our own sort of ideas about how we want life to be. And we actually cohabit in the same same house, right. And it's not, it's not, it didn't come so easily as my previous one. And I still maintain that if we weren't dating the same person, we probably wouldn't be friends, but we are, we choose to, we choose to live together. And we make and we have made and we still make every day, a conscious effort to have a good relationship we have, we don't always agree. And we have to navigate around each other all the time. And sometimes it's just about defaulting to respecting fellow strong women who I admire and who works really hard. So you know, if I'm the the times that I don't necessarily feel as sort of warm and cuddly, I kind of default to that I'd default the respect and admiration of who she is in the world, and then sort of recalibrate to that and negotiate from that place. And of course, I don't want to speak. I don't want to speak for her. But I imagine that that I see that respect reflected back at me. So I've just lucked out with my relationships with my metaphors, but they're both very different ones. And I'll tell you a little bit more as we explore. Let me so I want to kind of start with some questions. So as I said, I just hadn't thought about that Metamora relationship, I never thought that I would have a healthy ongoing relationship that I could nurture with my metaphors. Did you and and how did you imagine they would be?
I guess I also didn't really give it any thought. But it was also partly because we went in through the swinger community. And what we ended up doing was we went to hedonism a nudist resort. And we ended up meeting a couple in the hot tub that ironically lived near my hometown. And so that's kind of how we entered this swinger world. But what ended up happening was, we did become intimate with them. But also, they became really close friends. And they're still really close friends today. And it's been like 14 years. So we're actually not intimate with them anymore. But we're really good friends. So like, the Metamora thing was never even, you know, something to worry about at that point. And then with my husband has two partners, one lives locally near us and the other one lives, not locally in other state, and they're both married and have children. And both of those people were my friends first before anything ever happened in terms of relationships. And also, there's also been occasional intimacy there as well. So it was another thing where it was like, Oh, you're my people. And you know, so there was always kind of that sense of love and belonging and building that trust already. So it kind of took away a lot of that fear. So for me, the challenges with metamorphosis has really been with my other relationships. So the relationship that I'm in now, with my boyfriend, he has a wife who also lives in another in another state, and they have a son together. And she's very reluctantly in this situation. She also grew up Catholic and still believes a lot. there's anything wrong with that. We all get to make our own choices. And but she's not she's very reluctantly in a poly kewl and would never even use that word, you know. So that's been a very long journey. But we, it's been getting better and better in that situation. But it's literally taken three and a half years for us to, you know, hang out in the same room and talk to each other, but, but each day gets a little bit better. And then I have all kinds of, you know, crazy stories from the relationship I had before that, you know, I don't want to hold the mic too long. We'll see what happens with the conversations.
Thank you. Yeah. What about you? What did you do? Imagine that met some more relationship? And if you did, what did it look like?
Amber D'Amato
Think about it. I mean, we were going I also swingers started out swinging cuz I was I was luring him into non monogamy I really was I was like, you want to have a three foot I'm, I identify as queer at the time I identified as bi. So I was like, I'm down. I miss women. Let's do it. And then that turned into going to swing clubs, which we spend a lot more time eating bacon and drinking vodka, then we did having sex with other people, but it was still fun. And then we Twitter became this place where I started making all of these friends and meeting them in real life. And that is where I met the woman who became his girlfriend, my metaphor. And we were all friends first. And so we were all hanging out and doing things and not necessarily like having sex. And I was and then as things started opening more the people I was dating were single and didn't have And so that wasn't a thing. And then as they started getting closer and started, like, okay, we're dating, she, at the time had a girlfriend and a husband. And the husband was like dabbling and trying to date people. And we kind of, and they have two children. And we kind of got thrust into this like family thing. And I like, I come from a very big family who have not been near in a very long time. So I'm just like, people. And it was kind of this exciting thing, but also, like I had, I don't even think I knew what a fucking metaphor I didn't think about it. I was just like, Oh, these are people that I liked and like to spend time with. And that was just kind of where where we were. Yeah. And then it all went wrong.
Effy
As it does sometimes
Dirty Lola
Ominous.
Effy
Thank you. What don't you I'm very Did you did you think about that?
You taught me the word better, more. I never knew I was before I met you. But I had the opposite experience of you. In my all girls school, I was always and that my mom was super feminist. And I was raised to, like, honor the goddess and appreciate women and lift women up. And I've just always been in sort of a, that sort of space. So even when people were like catty and weird about like boyfriends or whatever, like I was always like, why are you doing that? Like, fuck that guy, like, go, go help the girlfriend out or whatever. So I think it was something that that naturally I was, I guess something that I wanted. And and now that I know what the word is, it's like, I it didn't occur to me that it was a thing when I was into polyamory, but I, I like, I like where it's like what it is. Yeah.
So there are no kind of guides and models for that particular relationship other than these, like horror stories. Are there any models that you sort of look at? Do you sort of think of like, oh, you know, I borrow from here? And kind of it's a bit like that. Do you think of any models that can you that you rely on to nurture that relationship,
Kitty Chambliss
like my current. So currently, I don't borrow from my old relationship. That was not to know, I don't know if y'all know Kevin Patterson. But like, he's like, pretty big deal in polyamory, but I kind of I envy the way the flow, though. And the way his mid mores if you ever, if you follow him on Facebook, the best thing I ever find is like how much shade, a number of his metaphors will throw and like the pylon, and I'm like, That's love. That's like teamwork and love. But that's how you know stuff is going right? When everybody has the same in jokes and the way they can rip that person. And it's like, it's a magical thing to see those women throw shade. And then like, it's so good, where I'm just like, oh, popcorn emoji let me be here. But I love how they all are. Some of them are closer than others, some of them like will come visit, like his wife was recently in New York visiting one of his metaphors that live here. And like they do those kinds of things. And they do things without him completely. But then there are people who are kind of like on the outskirts. And it's not that there's a problem, let's just like just, that's the way it is. And I just like the way there's this not an expectation of like you must be at this level, like we got to be sister wives or I don't want to know you there's like this nice flow, and this in and out. And I try to like be that person who can be the flexible to what you want.
Effy
I would say for me, when I was dealing with my own emotions, I tend to become a big nerd and I just start reading every single thing I can get my hands on. So I guess first I kind of go I go outward in terms of looking for research, and kind of go inward and dealing with it. And that's partly why I wrote a blog was to kind of talk about my feelings. And but I think today, it's how I go outward is I love going to polyamory conferences, and doing events like this and just like the sea of people that go to those type of events. So there's not really one person I can say a model off of, I like kind of enjoying the energy of seeing people who are in a space where they're allowed to be exactly who they can be. But I will say it was the year before last I did see cunning minx speak, at relate con the first relate con in Boise, Idaho. And she gave a couple workshops that were really great, but I liked the way she framed it where she said that one of her first relationships with her Metamora who is married to her partner, that that woman did not want to speak to her and it was very cantankerous, and she just she basically decided that she was creating a boundary that that was not okay. And she was not willing to be in any relationship where that Metamora was not okay having like being civil and being in the same room with her. And I thought that's cool. That's cool that she got to a place where she was like, No, this is my boundary, you know, so I kind of, I guess I would say, you know, in that sense, maybe she's a role model, and it just made me Think about, you know, what, what are my boundaries, and I think where I got to is a little more flexible, but that I would prefer, I guess is the way I would describe it, I would prefer to enjoy my metaphors company and definitely to be civil. And generally, you know, kind of the same thing, like, I'm kind of not okay with it. And luckily, like I said, In the beginning with my current boyfriend, we were in that place where she did not want anything to do with me, she did not want to meet me, and it took about a year and a half. But because it did get better, and because I really loved him, and I wanted the relationship to work out. We just kept navigating through all of that. So, yeah
Thank you, thank you.
There's a lot of nice couples in our community that are really good role models for me, and one that comes to mind just they've been together for 14 years. And as, as you say, sometimes they have their house in order. And so I like to talk to them about chips, tips and tricks.
Yeah, I definitely finding people who have their house in order is a good people to hang out with. So most of us kind of have mostly positive stories about our relationship with metaphors. But I also want to acknowledge that it's not always puppy dogs and rainbows. And I'd like to say, so I want to kind of find out about what are the struggles if any, you've had with your My s'mores.
My latest struggle with my Metamora is that basically, the long story short is that it was all in my head. So there's a happy ending, but, but initially, I was having a really hard time just communicating and having time with my partner, not even with my Metamora because, like, she wasn't answering my texts, or like responding to my invitations for things are, like, I got her like a gift. And I was trying to like bring it over to her house. And she didn't write back to my text. And so in my head, I like built up this whole story in my head, that she hated me, because I'm like, fucking her partner, and she thinks I'm scum. And you know, it just I just, like, let myself go down this rabbit hole, because I, I guess I sort of hold my metaphors to like a high standard of communication because like, maybe I over communicate, but in my mind, I'm like, There's no such thing. But I and I, and I also felt like, you know, I was like, why, you know, why isn't she getting back to me and it and it and it really started affecting not only not only me, but it really started affecting my time with my partner and, and then at some point, like, we were all gonna go on an adventure together. And I was like, Okay, before we go, like, I need to, like, I need to, like, get her in a corner and like, talk to her and be like, is everything okay? What can I do better? And, you know, and like you said it, it was a happy ending. She's, she's sort of when we finally did have that conversation. She said, Oh, you know, I'm really sorry, I just, I've been really busy with my own things. I have, like a lot of stuff going on in my life. And it's not personal. I just, I just needed some space and time for myself. And I really, I really like you, I really value you and our lives. I'm you know, I'm happy that we're going on this adventure together. And I'm just my whole body and my whole soul was just like, you know, um, but that, but it went on for a few weeks. And it was, I mean, maybe a few months, actually. And it was just very challenging. It was very challenging for me, and, and I noticed it creeping into like, a lot more than I thought it would like every day thoughts.
Fair enough. Yeah. I actually wanted to tag on a question at the end, which you answered, which is, then in a given the struggle is what sort of conscious and conscious steps are you taking to solve those problems that you address them? And then I think often the answer is communication. Right? And that's kind of the path that you went down on.
Right? But what do you do if someone doesn't communicate back with you? Or doesn't answer your texts? Or your emails or your phone calls? Or like your little notes to reach out? Like, what, what do you do?
Yeah, um, that's, that's a good question. And I know that we've talked about it before as well. And I think, um, just to consider that everybody has different expectations from this relationship. As I said, there is no models, there's no guidelines, there's no, like, a name that you can't point to that that's how it should be. And I definitely have worked with people who come, you know, cover the range of, I want to mean, don't ask, don't tell, like I don't even want to know this person exists. And the way they manage it is they, you know, they will have a slot in the calendar that essentially blocks off the time and the one partner is not going to be at home and and the other partner just doesn't want to know what happens during that time. And they're sort of that one end of the spectrum where people just don't want to make room don't want to know that that metaphor is exist, to all the way to kind of where we are which is like you know, living together They're in loving and sharing and all that kind of stuff. And anywhere in between. And I think it's just at some point, you kind of have to realize got to figure out where your metamour is, I think that's really important this relation, these relationships, kind of where you met them are is and to sort of stick with what, you know, where you're where you end where they start. And I think that definitely has been a learning experience for me. What about you what you can eat?
Kitty Chambliss
Do you want me to share some of the ugly? Oh, sure. So the boyfriend I had before my current boyfriend, he was really like my first polyamorous relationship out, like, full on poly relationship outside of my marriage. And we were together for about five years, and he was an actor, and he was passionate and sexy, and poor, and, and kind of, he would end up and also younger than me. So he would end up choosing as his partners, kind of these similar like, kind of young, like a little bit like dramatic, you know, actresses, maybe poor, maybe not. And he was also very interested in group sex. So so we would have these weird experiences where he'd be kind of like, pressuring me to, you know, jump in the sack with whoever he was seeing. And so that's probably when I had to really learn how to deal with some of my jealousy or just my various emotions. And, and then he also was so broke that he ended up moving in with us more out of financial need. And it and we were at, like I said, for data for five years. So towards the last period, it we ended really badly where I sang, and I was a lead singer and rock bands for about 18 years. And for me, gig days were very intense. You know, I'd practice my music all day long, I'd get the jitters and the shifts and everything. And so I'm putting on my makeup and I'm getting ready for this gig and they're the doorbell rings. It's dark out and like who the heck's come to the house now? And I answered the door, and it's a sheriff. And I'm like, Hello, how are you? And he asked for my boyfriend's name. Was he home? And I said, No, he's not home. He said, Well, does he live here? And he said, I said, Yes, he does. And he said, Well, I have a restraining order for him. And I said, bye, who and he gave a woman's name I'd never heard of before. So apparently, he was cheating on me with a woman that he pissed off so much that he got a restraining order against him. So that's a pretty bad Metamora story for you. And, and I forgave him that one time, about, fast forward about four months later, we're having a Sunday, you know, it looks all pretty, like, you know, me and my boyfriend or my husband, we're having brunch, and it's all nice. And I get a text. And it was a text from a woman I did not know is my Metamora. And she said, By the way, I'm sleeping with your boyfriend and I'm, I'm pissed off at him, because he won't tell you about it. So I was like, All right, you know, one time, shame on me. Second time you're out. And so that was a big, dramatic, awful, awful breakup, as you can imagine. So I think it is fair to especially people you know, even because even though I wrote a book, or I speak on panels, it doesn't mean that things are all puppy dogs and rainbows all the time. And you know, how do you think you learn all the lessons, sometimes it's by stepping into pile of shit. I'm gonna avoid that shit next time, not that you can always avoid it. And also with my husband. Sometimes it part of the reason I wrote the book on, on jealousy as I did was, when I was in that structure, where I was with that particular original boyfriend, and he was with his girlfriend. They were very affectionate and cuddly and cute and adorable. And my boyfriend at the time was not. So I was dealing with a lot of jealous feelings around scarcity around the affection and the touching and all the I love yous and you know, so that that fed into me writing the book. So those are some of the background stories. And I can I can go on and on and on how much you want me to
Effy
Sure. I'm also interested if you would mind talking a bit about your boyfriend's wife, right? Because that's a relationship that's evolving, and I'm really interested in how it's evolving. It wasn't great, but you said it's getting better.
Kitty Chambliss
Right? So with that, at the beginning, they they had a very different history where they went through a rocky part of their marriage where they didn't know if they were going to stay together. And that's when my boyfriend kind of decided that he was polyamorous and so they almost broke up, but they decided, for whatever reason whether it was because they had a son together a young young boy or not. They decided to try and work that out but he was dating other people but at that time, I'm sure she was healing from there was some infidelity that happened and, and so I'm sure she was probably angry about that. So she didn't want anything to do with anyone that He was seeing and so I was maybe girlfriend number three or four on that journey. And so of course, she wanted nothing to do with me. So, and I was in this space where I'm like writing a book and I'm on panels and speaking it, you know, so it was very difficult for me when I was like, what he doesn't want to meet me, you know? I'm awesome. But also, like, it just went, it went against, like, I've worked really hard to compromise, you know, values of integrity and transparency and honesty. So it was really hard. For me, like, I wasn't interested in it. Don't Ask, Don't Tell sort of situation. So it's been a really long journey. And, and I knew you were gonna ask me this question. So I tried to think about, you know, how did we slowly get to a place where we are now, which isn't perfect, because for me now, where we are is, she's a teacher. So she, and they see each other every couple months. We live in the DC area of Washington, DC, and she lives in Florida with their son. So she's kind of like a single mother down there. And she's not, of course, seeing anyone else because she's really monogamous at heart. So, so we're at the point where, because she's a teacher, she will come stay with us for three weeks in the summertime. And I was telling Effie earlier, like anybody coming to stay with you for three weeks is challenging. But then when it's you're reluctant, Metamora and I, I've struggled from infertility, so also having an eight year old around the house, as it's like it, there's joy about it, but then it's also, you know, kind of tugs at my heartstrings. So there's lots of difficulty around that. But I'm still happy about where we are, but it's taken us three and a half years. So, for me, some of the things that helped on that journey was really first working on my own feelings first, which again, is probably what prompted me to write the book was doing all that research, and just finding out, you know, how do I deal with my own feelings of whether it's insecurity or jealousy or fear of abandonment, you know, who knows where that comes from. But and also just really practicing radical self care, you know, a lot of compassion and self care. And so for me, it really starts inside of myself first. And then also, when I'm ready, you know, once I figure out what I need, maybe from somebody else, like asking them, knowing that they have the ability to say yes, or no nonviolent communication, right, we don't make demands, we make requests. So, you know, working up the courage and the vulnerability to say, hey, you know, I'm feeling really shitty today, or lonely or sad, you know, do you think maybe you can give me some reassurance or some appreciation, or can you just even appreciate, like, when your family comes to visit for three weeks, it's really fucking hard. And just, you know, having that candid conversation, and sometimes that's not easy, because sometimes he may not be in a space where he's ready to give me those things. So I have to be in a space to hear no, and then go back to the self care, right.
Effy
And I would say also, just, I joke around with my boyfriend, that he's in my life to teach me patience. So just really constantly working on patients, and not just with him or in that relationship, but just patients in general. Because we do live in an immediate gratification sort of society, and just knowing like, it can take years to build relationships. And also, it's not just about me and my needs, you know, I want to respect her and I want if I really want to get to know her, I also have to respect her boundaries, and honor where she's at. And so there's also patience for her. And, you know, like, you know, to not try and change her where she's at, and not try and change my boyfriend and where he's at and, and respect that they're trying to raise a son together, you know, so to give them space, and really honor that. And, and as far as my direct relationship with, with that metaphor, I just tried to be like, double down on the kindness, you know, just, it started out, like, I gave her a gift through my boyfriend, I'm like, Here, give her this little gift. It's from me, you know, and that kind of just opened the door and I just tried to, like, very gently let her know, like, I'm not scary, you know, I'm a nice person. And just keep reinforcing that over and over again. And then by doing that, like, tell your wife I said, Hello, you know, send her this cute little Bitmoji you know, very little steps, just building brick by brick by brick. And that took us it took us a year and a half before she finally was willing to stop by our house just to meet my husband and I for about 15 minutes. And that was that was funny. Because I found out like, I got a text from my boyfriend. He's like, Oh, we're gonna stop by the house and pick up some clothes before we go to our hotel. Oh my god, you know, and I texted my husband's like, I'm gonna turn around come back from Home Depot because we're gonna clean the house. And it was it was hilarious. Like, if anyone was watching me it was hilarious. And then as soon as they pulled up, I'm like it is so nice to meet you. But you know, so just little baby steps and now they stay for three weeks at a time. So it's just you know, and you know, now I give them Christmas presents and birthday cards, you know? They're just kind of reinforcing it constantly.
You're good. You're good. Yeah, that's amazing. And I think so much of that resonates with me do I think, definitely when in doubt, just defaulting to respect is definitely where I found negotiate that space, and also respecting the boundaries. Same with me, I think the my current Metamora relationship is all about respecting mutual boundaries. And because we actually have to also share physical space. So there is this like, very gentle, friendly dance that we kind of do with one another, knowing that we both need space, and we give each other space and we take space when we need to as well, because we both can be intense together. So yeah, definitely. It's just like constant. Pleasant work is work, but it's like consciousness around that relationship as well. So yeah, thank you. Yeah. Well,
Kitty Chambliss
tell us. So um, when we, when we started really getting into like, okay, we're, we're with them. I always looked at myself as we are, even though I wasn't necessarily, I wasn't dating her. And I dabbled, like we talked about earlier, like, kind of her husband, I had crushes. But she kind of made that a hard thing to pursue. And she at the time, and we met had a girlfriend who was also married. So there were six of us. So we had the first year and change, we have a lot of like instant orgies, because you got six people. You don't need to go anywhere. So they would like come for the weekend. And we would like set up the living room and like all do different things, like have sex in different configurations and whatever, because you got six people. And you know, it's like, and it was a lot of fun. And but it was also this time of like trying to learn how to communicate with this person. And so while we would have these friendly texting conversations, there were these also these moments were like, she her girlfriend at the time, and I were really bonding because we were the two black women in a relationship with a whole bunch of white people. And we would sit and talk about some of the stuff that was happening because there was a lot of boundary pushing, and boundary breaking done by my ex and the girlfriend. And so there was a lot of a lot of like, not talking like not saying like, Hey, we're gonna hook up or we're gonna go do this thing. And just like, Oh, your fucking Oh, oh, okay, like, I'll go out and not know, like, and we had all kind of set like rules and, or boundaries. And she had set a lot, but then would break the things she wanted to break for her own gain. And it was becoming a thing. So the her girlfriend at the time, and I would just like vent, and we would vent over text. And then she decided we're practicing radical honesty, which meant I get to go through your phone. That's how she, she like, framed it for us. So she would just take her girlfriend's phone and then read all the things that I was like kind of venting, like, Hey, I'm really upset about this thing. And then it would get thrown in my face in the middle of dinner or things like that. So all of these things were like, because I was new, and they felt like red flags, but being with people who were in polyamory and having me being told no, it's You're just jealous. So I got told I was jealous a lot. And I did a lot of work. I read like the ethical sleds chapter that that literal chapters falling out of the book from how many times I've gone through it and highlighted and every conference I went to, or anything that had anything about jealousy, I was there. Because I was being told I was the bad guy. This was my problem. But at the same time, I was also dealing with somebody who was supremely dramatic, and very, I don't know, jealous and greedy. And I say those things in a way of like, literally her husband was inside of me. We were all at orgy. And I and she had, and I'm very, like, I kind of have a hard time. Like being focusing and I get like out of my head and start paying attention to people in the room. And like, I guess my ex and they were having some issues, because he had performance anxiety. And I just remember her pushing him off of her and grabbing her her husband and I'm like Ketos like, I mean, no, like, he's, we're fucking and and then the next morning she said, we all rejected her and we were all awful. And this is what we're trying to make pancakes. There's kids who are waking up, and she's crying and that everybody rejected her. And I'm like, Y'all were literally there six people. You had sex with two people. I watched you do it. And then you interrupted my ex. And you're mad and you're crying and I'm like, you're lucky. You're lucky I haven't punched you in your face.
Effy
Because I'm an eight. I don't know if you do the Enneagram. I'm a Leo. I'm an eight and I'm a black woman. All those things together can be napalm. And so looking back act, but I kept being told, I'm the bad guy, you're jealous, you're this, you're that. And it was like, Okay. And I dealt with that for a really, really long time. And we had a lot of good spots where we would get into this really great groove and I would communicate with her and we were doing okay. And, and, but when it came to my ex, she would just shut down. And it would get to the space where she's like, well, I don't want to hear things from you. And I'm like, Well, here's the thing. He's shitty at communicating. And you know, this, and I know this, and he literally will not tell you things until like, right before, so I'm trying to stop them from being problems between us, because this keeps happening. And she dramatic, no, and you're being awful, and you're trying to break us up. And I'm like, No, I'm just trying to have a relationship with you that isn't combative. And so there was a lot of that and really end of the day it was a lot of me doing work that was maybe I won't say unnecessary, but a lot of me feeling like the villain. Towards the end, they were gaslighting me beyond gaslighting I, they were like you have an anger problem. Like she not a therapist, but she worked in like with folks with mental illness, she worked in homes and things she had a lot of language I didn't have. And like would constantly diagnose me and tell me I had like associated identity disorder. And I was bipolar. And she would like send me things to read and say, This is you. And so much so that when the relationship ended, I was livid. I was literally trembling all the time. I didn't, I had to, like ask friends about reality. And like, am I being Is it weird that I don't want to come home and sleep in the bed, that he's going to fuck her. And while I'm away on a business trip, and he's telling me he'll just change the sheets, and I'm like, we're good at you're told me you want to divorce, I still have to sleep in a bed with you. Could you just please not have her in the apartment while I still have to live with you. And they didn't care. And then I just came home to a new bed. Like that was how deep it went. And I went finally went to a therapist. And I was like, in tears like, I have I something's wrong with me. And I fuck everything up. And I think I have an anger problem. And he just goes, Can I ask you a question? He's like, you're all your partner's white. And I was like they were.
And he was like, It's not you. It's white people don't know how to deal with how we people of color tend to express things we get loud. And we actually talk about it. And we're not passive aggressive. And we're, I mean, it's true. And I'm, I'm not labeling all y'all but like, it's a thing, do we grow up differently, we're very blunt. And this is the household I grew up in, like, you got a problem with me I'm gonna tell you about the problem is probably gonna be loud, we're going to take care of it, I'm not going to do things like not text you for, you know, 10 days, and then tell you, you have a mental illness. So that was a lot of my, that was a lot of my stuff. And coming out of all of this, and going to therapy, and having. I always like, I hate saying like, people save you, but I don't know how I would have functioned. Not having my partner and his wife and my life because I was coming out of this space of just feeling like not just a failure. I'm a horrible human being, I brought this on myself. And like, like, oh, maybe this isn't true. And maybe I'm not this bad person. And so having a partner who's like, I love you, and I don't, I don't see those things he sees in you. And I also understand he's like, I get you get fiery, and my Metamora is part Mexican. So he's like I live with. And he's like, No, you're passionate, and it's okay for you to be passionate. And he's like, when you have somebody who talks to you like he's therapists, he doesn't terrifies me. But he also is really good at communication and also good at like, I see you, you don't trust anybody, you're really like shaky. I'm not mad at you about those things. And having somebody like, see me so clearly, but also be okay, with the really shitty parts of me that were just right at the surface made it so much easier for me to communicate, like, Hey, I'm scared, or this is where I am. And then when it came to my new metaphor, just how much damage had been done with having somebody who did the kind of thing she did in the relationship and like, people go, Oh, she she ended your marriage. I'm like, no, no, no, it's takes more than that. Like, he let that happen. And he also fed into it. And then so it's a world win. And I did do some things in our relationship, but at the end of the day, you know, it's not just her but I will say she did like she did a lot of dismantling of me and not necessarily with the relationship because they were trying to push me to ask for the divorce. That's what I've found out now that they were trying to fuck me up so much that I asked for the divorce. I know it's so nice when you start talking to your ex in a clearer way, but with my my men and my current metaphor, having somebody who from the beginning of relationship reached out Talk about us, we rarely would talk about her husband, we would she, like we were getting to know each other. She loves books and like, this is the stuff and we talk and she's she loves Disney bounds. I don't know if y'all know what that is where you like wear the colors of a character, but you don't necessarily dress like the character. So every morning I get a bound. And she's just really about us building our relationship. And that's how that started. We were building a relationship while I was falling in love with him. And it hadn't my relationship with her had nothing to do with whether or not I was with him. It was about the two of us creating a friendship. And then as things moved on when things started getting hard for her because they were newly opened up like I was his not his first partner. But it was like when I met him, they were closed. And then like the following year, so they were like, Oh, he's like we're open, would you like to hook up? But he they had been in relationships. And she was still in a very unsteady place. And having come from that, it was really easy for me to be like I see you and like I'm here for you. But she never put that on me. Like it was always this is where I am. This is not you. And she would express like her fears and things but it was never in a like, I don't want you to be with him type away or I don't want you to be with her. It was like this is where I am.
Yeah, sounds like healing is a lot sounds like healing from a lot of trauma. Yeah. Thank you. I like that at least has a happy ending of like, in healing and a positive a new positive relationship. Yeah. So I want to, I can ask him a million questions. But this is about you guys about the foxes. And this is why we asked you to bring your curiosity. Any questions?
Speaker 1
Hi, I had a question. And I think you both mentioned this, but how did you navigate manage the feelings of having a friend then become a Metamora? Rather than like your partner finding the person, but it's like your friend for? And I feel like that's where I would struggle more with like, the jealousy of like, the friendship and like, you know, my friend in a way that I don't know, my friend.
Effy
Yeah, so it was a little bit sort of relationship transition, you have to kind of manage the transition as well.
Unknown Speaker
My, so my husband is been in that relationship, I want to say like eight years now and, and so for me, it's a little bit about loss, actually, because she and I had become really close. Even though she she's a little bit of an introvert, we ended up becoming like email, friends, even though she only lives 20 minutes away. And, and because she's an introvert, she would like you know, share her feelings over email, and we were just becoming these really great friends. And what ended up happening, we call it played or if you start to wonder if she was married at the time, and we had played are like, are they in an open relationship? I don't know. And eventually, we found out that they were so so but then what ended up happening was she ended up getting a divorce. And while she was and I won't go into why, but it was a very awful, you know, traumatic divorce for her. And we just bought her house. So she ended up coming and staying with us for a few weeks so that she didn't have to be in the house with her husband at the time. And that's when she started get close with my husband. And of course, then we all knew that we were all in an open style relationship. And that's that was the beginning of their relationship. But what ended up happening is our friendship is has completely changed. So I kind of like lost that friendship. And there were days or times in my life where I was kind of sad about that. And I guess also in in my whole journey of consensual non monogamy. I've just kind of started to accept that I lose friends. But I mostly lose friends from the monogamous world. But I did lose her in in the consensual non monogamous world because I lost her to my husband in a way. But I guess I've just kind of gotten used to it. I know that probably sounds depressing. But it's just true. And now it's just true. So and there was only like moments of jealousy. And now I've just come to a place of acceptance about it. You know, I love her. I still love her. I just love her in a different way. And we're just not close friends. But we're good friends. And I know that I can call on her for absolutely anything. Her daughters are god daughter. Her husband is awesome. He's a really great friend of ours. He just happens to be monogamous, but he's like, I'm Dutch. I think this is all great. Do whatever you want. And and so our relationship has just changed, I guess so but I did lose the closeness but I still think our relationship is awesome. So I guess maybe that's why I'm not really sad about it. Does that answer your question?
Effy
Okay. I'm actually Can I ask a follow up question? What would what would you if you could what is the distinction of where The relationship has changed like it. So what was the what are the sort of distinctions between we're close friends, and now we're metamorphose. And it's a different relationship. And we're not friends.
Unknown Speaker
Well, I guess now we're kind of like we consider each other family. But in terms of like our day to day friendship, it's kind of more of like, the word superficial. Doesn't feel right. But we're just not close. We're not close emotionally. But I know if you know, I was in jail, she would bail me out. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, whereas I guess before, we were really emotionally close, like, we were starting to become best friends even. And, yeah, so that's what I lost. Cool.
Effy
And then do you? Um, is there a change? Also, do you? What about the topics that you discuss? Because I know that one of the questions that we discussed earlier is like, once you become metamorphose, what are the boundaries of what you're discussing? So was that that before? Like, maybe you talk about how you like, certain things about your Europe? And then you know, you don't? Because as that relationship happening?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I guess when when we were in that, like really close relationships, she would talk more about her feelings. And then we started to get to the point where she would talk about her feelings about my husband. And then something snapped, I maybe it was when she fell in love with them, or I don't know, but then she just kind of stopped talking. So she just doesn't talk to me about her feelings anymore. Definitely not about my husband. But it's funny because I don't actually even feel jealous about it. But she doesn't talk about it, you know, but we'll talk about lots of other things.
Effy
Interesting. Yeah.
Doug
Hi, I'm Doug. And my question is, so some of you and your example, for example, you're married, and then you have other relationships. And I think a couple of you have that certain scenario. I was under the impression that in polyamorous relationships, one person can't be primary. But maybe I'm wrong. You know, and particularly if there's a mono poly connection, obviously, that adds its own complexity. But what is your experience? And is there a place? And if so, under what conditions? For one relationship to be the primary relationship and a polyamorous situation without being judgmental? Or, you know, unfair? I guess?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, you can do what you want to do. You can be have a primary you can do hierarchy, you can do not argue, I think hierarchy gets a bad rap sometimes. And then there's like couple privilege and all those things. What I...
Doug
I have to look some of these up but okay keep going...
Unknown Speaker
We'll talk after, with ours, it became less about it was like more of a not a hierarchy. But priority. We lived together, we were splitting bills, like I'm sorry, like we make, we share a bank account, that other person doesn't get decide where my money goes, that's a different thing. Whereas if we didn't have the same because I don't care what you do, but you know, you're not going to go to Hawaii for two weeks on my die. You know what, I don't get to go fuck that. So it's an it's for, for us, it became not about like hierarchy. But like, we live together. These are things so yes, we need to talk about when the other is going away, because it's like, who's going to be with the cat who's going to wash the laundry, who's doing these things, who's taking care of the home. Whereas if we all live together, that would have been a different story. Because this part that I think I missed out, they lived in Maryland, they're four hours away. And so there was a lot of like traveling. But I guess it's different for everybody like now I think the relationship that I'm a part of as like the girlfriend, I don't know if they what they call it, but I you know, I respect respected, they share a house, they have a kid, they don't share money. So it makes it easier for him to like decide to buy me presents or do things because it's not coming out of her bank account. But they do negotiate time. So like we all sit down and talk about like, what conferences are we going to this year? Because that's how I get to see him without it costing all of us so much money, or what are we doing this week, we get each other's schedules. We talked about like summer plans and like, okay, so when are you free? When is she get vacation? When is your daughter gonna go to the grandparents? So we have like, okay, what are we doing? But at the end of the day, I don't live there. I'm in New York, they're in California, who am I to say like, I need to come first when I'm not even in your state, let alone your you know, your home. So I respect that discussions need to be had between them before before, but I'm privy. It's like, oh, yeah, we're gonna talk about it. We all talk about it. I kind of go like, Oh, this is what I have going on. And so like, yep, we'll talk about it and we'll figure it out. So yeah.
Effy
I think I'm also just add to that, I mean, I think polyamory is like like Lola said, as you make it, right. And in my coaching, I coach around this idea of relationship by design. So I almost the work that I do is get the relationship design the relationship and then put a label on it for shorthand, rather than sort of deciding what polyamory is and tried to fit into that right because it then it's kind of duplicating what you do with monogamy because monogamy is essentially a once one size fits all structure that most of us are trying to fit into and if that fits you great like that is your model, go for it? If it doesn't fit you, and then what? Right? And then I think that's that the rest of it is like when then one and then you actually get to kind of design it yourself. And as you think as you design it, I think it's sort of thinking like, what is this language and find a definition for it and kind of fit yourself into that. And the process is almost the other way around, like design the relationship, figure out what it looks like for you in a way that everyone's thriving. And then like, find the nearest label for shorthand, but also, like, I always say, like labels will get you onto the same page with somebody, you need to have a conversation together in the same paragraph. So and if somebody says to you, I'm Polly, a good question to ask is, what does that look like? And get them to tell you like, what does that look like for them? Because I'm sure in even around this room, if we asked 10 people who who identify as polyamorous, they'll give you 10 different designs. So yeah. Cool. Another question.
Speaker 3
Hi, um, I was wondering, so a lot of this has been about Metamora to Metamora relationships. As I know, a couple of you, a couple of you are in this circumstance, as well as the pivot, or even as the metaphors. Where do you think the pivots role is in helping keep a V function when it's not a triad, but when it is a b?
Unknown Speaker
Or the pivot? Yeah. So household? Yeah, so I'm definitely the pivot in our household for sure. Even though they also have other partners. So in their own way, they're, they're the pivot. But I guess for me, I think this is also probably very individual. For me, I do kind of consider at this point, both of my partners both a primary, and I do kind of prescribe a little bit to the hierarchical thinking at least, because some of it's just on paper to write, I've got a marriage certificate with my husband and we we own the house together. And I don't have that with my boyfriend. But we are all living in the same house together. So in terms of how we handle it, I, I tend to come from it from a place of, I want to be able to have enough energy to give to both of them as much as possible. And I'm a worrywart. So I also am constantly like, I'm trying not to worry, like, are you? Okay? Are you okay? Am I giving you enough attention? You know, and I'm getting better about that. And also, they're, they're both very secure people. And I just in the beginning, when we were first kind of navigating all this, I just kept asking them, like, if you need something, you'll let me know. Right? And they're like, yes, you know, and they would keep giving me reassurance. So at this point, I kind of, you know, believe them, I'm like, Alright, if you need me, you'll let me know. And in terms of how we run the household, we were joking that this question always comes up. So just so happens, the way our houses, I share the master bedroom with my husband, and then my boyfriend has like the whole bottom of the house that has, it's almost like its own little apartment. And I literally just sometimes I sleep upstairs, and sometimes I sleep downstairs. And it just kind of is based on who has to get up in the morning, who needs a ride to work, that kind of thing. And so and so it kind of just flows very nicely at this point. But I mean, there, in the beginning, we were trying to figure it out, there is a lot of emotional labor, I felt I was doing, trying to make sure that they were both Okay. And, you know, the relationship with my husband always tends to feel a bit more secure, because we've been together so long. And so it was always making sure that my boyfriend felt secure. And also because it's not his house, how do we make him feel welcome. And we're kind of constantly working on all that. And then I also just see, like, for example, my, my boyfriend, being the pivot partner, between me and his wife, I actually really feel for him, when they are coming for those three weeks. I'm like, wow, how is he handling all this right now, you know, because that's gonna be really challenging.
Effy
I can also take a bit of excitement pivot in one of my relationships when we live together. For me, it's always been my design, our design, I should say, is kitchen table poly, which means that ideally, we sit around the table and break bread and sort of share good vibes. So what I tried to do for my partner and my partners, is to provide that kitchen table. So every now and then we'll do a family brunch, or something that where we all get together and hang out. And I feel like that nurtures that relationship. And that's usually my contribution to that relationship.
Unknown Speaker
So observing a pivot because I'm not the pivot my partner is is something we've learned is that I stay out of their business, like not I know what's going on, but I don't try to address things that are happening between them with her. That's not my business. I sometimes like he will ask my opinion on things and I will talk to him. And it's always he's like, oh, like, what do you think, should I and I'm like, Ah, you know, maybe but Don't do it that way, because she'll slap you in your face, wherever become a little bit of an advocate of like, knowing hers, like, I feel really good about as much as I know her. But when it comes to things where it's about her motions or something with us than I will we talk, she and I talk and like we dabble in that way. But he's really good at saying like, Oh, she's feeling uncomfortable. And like, I'll bring it up, like, we'll talk. And so that's where he's done a really great job as a pivot is like not trying to talk to us about what like, I don't hear, like, I know, relationship stuff. But he doesn't like bring that to me. And he doesn't take that to her. But he's kind of there of like, hey, somebody's feeling a little, whatever. I'm like, okay, we can all talk let's all get on the phone, or Marco Polo, or whatever the hell we're using at the time. I love Marco Polo. But yeah, can I ask a
Jacqueline Misla
follow up question as it relates to that and kind of pivoting? So as the pivot, it sounds like you're saying that the he maintains responsibility to not overshare with you, so that it doesn't impact your relationship with the metamorph, right? Because if
Unknown Speaker
she's having a spin out moment, and feeling really like like, again, you're having a spin on when we all get there, we're like, you're like, This is me, there were times I was when you said that I was like, Oh, I've been there with with her. I was like, she doesn't like me, and she thinks I'm trying to like ruin their marriage. And it wasn't, it was just he was being really shitty about he wasn't being she was just like, telling me things and telling her things. But he has ADHD, and he wasn't completing sentences. And we were like, What the fuck is going on? And when we all three spoke to each other, it was like, Oh, this is your fault. We we've been on the same page. This is your fault. So when she when we have those spin outs, I appreciate that, like, I'm able to be like, about her like, Oh, I feel like kind of angry about something she's doing and just venting a little bit. And then he's like, Well, it's not like that. But he doesn't go run and tell her that he'll say like, you know what I'm saying? I think we all need to like get on the phone. Because again, I don't, I don't get to see her often. I like at all we like talk to each other on FaceTime and things like that. And I actually spent New Year's with them New Year's Eve, like a week. So that was a good where we're like we like each other.
Effy
Yeah. Like when this relationship. Any other questions? Quick. So before I wrap up, I want to sort of go down and ask sort of what's something for everyone to add? And then I want to wrap up? What would be the one piece of advice that you'd give to people in a way that will help their relationship with their metaphors? What is the one thing that you've figured out, in within your relationship through experience that you want to share with everyone and be like, This is gonna be my pro tip.
Unknown Speaker
So as a metaphor, I always try to practice like, Oh, I hate the phrase, Happy wife, happy life, but like, I want I'm there to make their life better. If I am detracting in any way, that's going to be a problem for me. So I want to be there to enrich. And that's always my goal is like, I don't want anybody to ever feel like I'm taking away I want to be adding to and if it's ever in a space where I feel like I'm taking away like, I want to deal with that. And maybe that's not a relationship because I don't want somebody overly focusing and then fucking things up like I'm a big person will be like, oh, like, did you talk to her about that first because I don't, I don't want to be that, like, I've had that in my life. And it's a very destructive force. And I don't want to ever be that. So yeah, it's just like, try to keep my side of the street clean and be good to everybody, not just the person you're fucking
Unknown Speaker
I would say I think it overlaps with what you said. But I would say, empathy, you know, should really come from a place, certainly of self empathy. You know, if you're having a rough day, but But trying to, you know, really get in the other person's shoes, and have empathy for wherever they are on the journey, and also to help them feel safe. And so feel helping them feel safe might also be not just blurting not being flirtatious in a bad moment, and you know, sometimes just, you know, looking inward before you speak, so I think empathy and safety, I would say,
Effy
I would say be kind and be genuine like in yourself, and also ask for what you need from every person in the relationship, whether it's your Metamora, or your partner, or any of the other extended people.
And I think one what I'll add to that is, see the person see your metamorph as an individual, before you see them as your Metamora as before you see them as like their relationship with your partner or whatever that is, but just see the individual first before you put them into context of everything else and see if you can appreciate the person who they are and remain curious about them. Just remain curious, get to know them if it's available. And I think that just seeing them as an end withdrawal without the context of the relationship is a good place to start. Is what would be my little advice. So I'm gonna wrap up. Before I do I just want to say a quick round of thank yous. First and foremost, thank you so much panelists, my panelists
they make it look so easy. It's not It's It's brave work to sit here and share and until all the stories so really appreciate it. This is what makes it a quick thank you to people who support me behind the scenes. Thomas who does our audio both produces the records and produces the podcast. Thank you, my sister Laura, who makes things happen. And Jackie who is the engine behind all this and keeps me sane. And of course thank you, you foxes for coming out and supporting us, and we'll see you soon. Until then stay curious. Stay curious, curious, curious, curious, stay curious. Stay curious. Stay curious.
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