Ep 123: Relationship Math and the Equal Division of Labor
Art by @muhammedsalah_
What does it mean to put effort into relationships? Does one person always show up more than the other? Is relationship maths as simple as 50+50 makes 100%?
In this revisited episode, Effy and Jacqueline sit down to work out what is the right maths when it comes to the division of effort that goes into a relationship while comparing parental relationship dynamics to adult romantic relationship dynamics. Not all relationships are created equal, not all effort is valued the same.
To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla on Instagram.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Effy
Welcome to the Curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.
Jacqueline
And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today, we're talking about perceived inequity and relationships. Specifically, what if you feel like you are putting in more effort than your partner partners? What if your partner feels that they're doing more work than you?
Effy
We are challenging the notion that each person in a relationship has to put in their equal share in order for the relationship or the household to thrive. In reality, relationship math is more complicated than that. Because the value of each person's contribution is subjective. It depends on the individual's value system, while one person can assign a ton of value to clean home. The other can assign similar value to organizing an adventure filled vacation for the family. And another assign similar value to making sure the kids have a nourishing reading list, but not vice versa. This can leave people in the relationship feeling like they're doing the lion's share, and breed resentment.
Jacqueline
This episode originally aired in December of last year, and since then, my thinking on this subject continues to evolve. We're in the midst of working on an episode that will come out later this month on ADHD and relationships. In particular, things to know if you are in a relationship with someone with ADHD, or if you are the person in the relationship with ADHD. In the episode, we talk about my experience as a neurotypical person who is the ex wife, mother and current partner to folks with ADHD.
Effy
And my experience as someone with an ADHD brain who's trying to balance romantic, collaborative and parental relationships, deeply aware of the frustrations of all sides.
Jacqueline
The research and conversations that we've had in preparation for that episode has given me deeper insight as to why it felt like I've carried most of the weight of responsibility when it came to household chores, navigating through conflict or emotional connection. Because of the unique dynamic between neurotypical and ADHD folks, the prep for that episode has also reminded me of all of the joy, creativity, fun and balance that I received because of those relationships. So if you have ADHD, or parent or partner someone with ADHD, then keep an eye out for that episode.
Effy
Until then, here's what we have to say about relationship math.
Jacqueline
So I brought this topic to the table, because this has been an ongoing, it's always been an ongoing thing, not only in our conversations in my entire life, this theme of feeling like I am doing more people being annoyed at my idea that I am doing. And me partnering with folks, where there feels like a natural imbalance, if you will, where it feels like the real you is designed right exactly for me to do more. And it has taken you know, all of my 40 years to get to a point where I'm actually now rethinking and challenging the relationship math that I had in my head. So the relationship math in my head went a little something like this. Let's assume there's 100% of things to do within a relationship, right. And I've realized over time, that I have high expectations based on everyone who's ever interacted with me ever, I have high expectations for high quality of life, high quality of what can happen I have very strong executive functioning skills. And so if I map out a vision, I'm like, we are going to get there by hell or high water. We're gonna get there I'm gonna I have the discipline, I have the list. I have the time management skills to get us there.
Effy
Because that's why that's exactly why we are heading towards our 100th episode of this podcast is 100 of the reason and 100% of the reason why we are getting to our 100th episode of this podcast so yes.
Jacqueline
He's moving across the country, timezones be damned..
Effy
We are all gonna get there.. So yes, carry on Jacqueline.
Jacqueline
Or, you know, I will. You know I will carry on until I get there. So, so the idea, right, so it is, you know, there's all these things that needs to be done to make it or life and relationship work and thrive. I am committed to life in a relationship that is thriving. And so if there's 100% of the things I at some point came to terms with, I am going to put in 70%, and my partner will put in 30, like that is just what is going to happen. I always put in more, I always do more things. And I like came to terms with that and was fine with it was like, Okay, I'm going to be the one who remembers all the things, who keeps track of all the stuff, who orders the groceries and who like reminds us special days, and who keeps track like I'm going to be the holder of the emotional labor and the physical household were all are the things and you're going to do your 30%. But then what would happen is, when it felt like for me, they weren't even doing their 30% I went from generous generosity of spirit, to just deeply resentful, and angry and just like flipped a switch. Right. So like, a good example. And we'll talk we'll talk about this. So the dynamic the parent child relationship dynamic is different than a partnership relationship dynamic. This is the one that comes to mind to me, in the morning, you know, with my daughter, I'll I get her up, you know, we are up in a lovely way, make sure that she has breakfast, you know, remind her to take a shower, put the shower on for her, like, do all the things to try to set up her life so that she can do all the things she wants, but with ease. But when she then after all of that giving, and all of that generosity and mommy loveliness can't physically get out of bed when she is supposed to, or like takes way longer than she should kind of playing with her breakfast or whatever, I become furious, right? Or I have I'm working on that. But I would get furious because I was like, you can't even do your 30%, all I need you to do is physically get out of the bag, and put your clothes on like that is all that I'm asking. And you can't even do that. Now, and I now translate that to partnership conversations that have happened over the course of my you know, adult relationships, where I'm like, I picked out the restaurant, I did that this I did that. All I needed you to do was be here on time. That's all that's all that I needed with you. And you can't even do that. Right. So so that relationship math existed for me for a long time. And it is only until probably this last year that I have revisited all of that and actually tried to deconstruct it all. And I think that is what we're going to explore today.
Effy
There is so much there Jacqueline, there's so much. And the good thing about it, I think it's, you know, by no means you're alone, you know that? I think, you know, I have my version of of this. And we'll definitely delve into that as well. And I think it'll just resonate with, with everybody. That's, that's listening, because I think we have at least once in our lives been on either side of that, right? Somebody's saying to us, like I did all this. And then you just had to do this one thing, or the person that saying, I've, I've done all this and all you had to do is this right? I think it's a topic and space that will resonate with a lot of people, you know, your relationship with your daughter is all of our kids, right? Our relationship with their children or offspring is different to our relationship with our with our partners. And I think it's really important to have that distinction. Because sometimes we do find ourselves in in that dynamic in adult relationships. And when we do, it's very hard to then have a place for the erotic when there's a parental dynamic, because that's just not where those things live in our brain. So I think just keep reminding that, that those are two separate relationships. And..
Jacqueline
Can we stay per second just because I do think that that's important, particularly for those who were socialized as female and, and all of the dynamics that go along with that, that if you are in a partnership that has children and you have taken on or been socialized around the responsibility of doing all the things and have created that dynamic of to your point, the parent child relationship is designed to be disproportionate, right we're supposed to as adults do more for children as they grow into being adults. That can then translate that energy into your adult to adult relationships. And then correct and now we can be erotic if I'm treating you like my child. Exactly. Exactly. Feel like your child right either. I'm treating you like your child. Hey, like your child. We sexy time is off the table.
Effy
Right? Exactly, exactly. So it's worth it. So I think that's worth mentioning. And the other piece I want to talk about Just to like address is this idea of the the 7030 assumes a very specific style of straight up maths rain, I just don't think that's how relationship math works. I think in your formula of like, I do something to present, they do 30% I think the operative word is do. And I think when you were even describing it, you said, let's say there's 100% of the things that need to be done their relationship, which I think is its own criteria, things that need to be done within a relationship. And then there's like, the relationship itself, like the 100% of the relationship, not just the things to do in the relationship, right, there's a good distinction in there. Once it's inside, if I if you think about like Venn diagrams, one will sit inside the other one. So the relationship itself 100%. And then within that there is things to be done in, in within the relationship, its own 100%, you know, now we're getting into some complicated matters.
Jacqueline
So I'm wondering if we can, I want to do a deep dive for a few minutes into if you are the person if you're listening. And you're like, I'm the one who always does all the things right, like, I'm the one who holds, again, the emotion, the emotional burden, the household work, the time connection, the remembering of the things, if you're that person, I'm going to talk we're going to talk to you for a little bit with other person, and people stay on and listen, be a fly on the wall to this conversation, we're going to switch it up in a second. But I think it's important for folks to hear both sides. For the person who is feels like they're holding on to things and let me tell you what that looks like for me, I'm gonna give you a little preview into my brain. My brain, it's, it's like there is like a ticker going on constantly. So, you know, have you ever watched like a cable news show, and at the bottom, there's like the running list of like all of the news. So you have the news that you're hearing. And then you have this running list at the bottom. Or it's like if you had like talk radio on in the background where there's always noise, that is what it is like to live inside of my brain. There's what's happening in the moment. And there is a constant running tab of all the things that need to get done, haven't gotten done should have been done like all of it at all times. Right. And because that runs my brain, it is the way in which I have shown up in the world and have to like fight against that where I'm like, and now this and now this and now this and now this and it keeps score because it is it is does an exquisite job of capturing everything. Everything I've done everything you've done everything. I haven't done everything you haven't done, it holds it all. And and so if you are the person who feels that way, and if you're listening in and you're like, Oh, I do not feel that way. No, that might be happening in your partner's mind.
Effy
Someone might be doing it for you.
Jacqueline
Right, exactly.
Effy
Someone might be keeping track of everything for you.
Jacqueline
Exactly, exactly. And so that looks really different across multiple relationships, you know, with some of my partnerships that have meant the house, the doing of the house stuff, like remembering, we got to send out this bill, we got to do this thing, we got to get the groceries for other partnerships, it could have been around more of the emotional labor of it. We haven't gone on a date in a while we haven't connected like and being the one to lead that work. But in most for most of my adult relationships. At some point, I felt like I'm the one who has to lead of this thing.
Effy
Sure, sure. First of all, that sounds exhausting. So I'm sorry for her for that is that is what it's like for you. I get it. My experience of it's very different than yours. I don't have a running together I have like a cloud. So my brain chatter is not a ticket. It's more like a mind like a complicated mind map and, and word cloud that just like hovers and shifts and moves. It has no order and it has no obvious connection to one another but at some point, it will connect and then I have these like epiphanies.
Jacqueline
Well, can you give me an example of that? So it's like, is it like I have to do the dishes? Oh, speaking of dishes, I forgot that mug cracked I gotta get another mug. Oh, wait, it's Christmas is coming. I gotta get gifts is that what like? Give me an example to your words.
Effy
Sure. It's like a problem solving mind. But it'll work very differently. So for example, I'll start with the dishes. Like I'll give you an example. I'll start with the dishes and I'll be doing dishes and I'll be like, looking at the dish soap and I'll then I'll think oh, what makes you know, what is additional meat of? Oh, I don't know, but its function is to break down fat and protein because that's what the dishes are. In that point. I'll go Oh god, I have that stain that I'm trying to get off my you know, that was that that was like oil. Okay, so if it is happening with the fat in it, it's going to work with that. So I'll and I'll, you know, I'll then like us take the thing, the district so I'll go and like, you know, handle my laundry and I'll come back and then at that point, like I probably left the tap on, like, come back and I'm like, Oh, that's so good. That's kind of what happens for me, the interesting is like, just a bunch of informations floating around. And I think what happens is when I focus on something, when I try to focus on something, it starts to connect a bunch of other things. So when I'm focusing, I see this stuff, I'm like, this, what is it made of? I know I have a piece of information that's gonna get me that answer. It goes there. And once it goes there, it like goes, Oh, this information was so useful for here, here. And here.
Jacqueline
Are you picturing you know, in the movies, where like, it's about like a mathematician or some scientists, and they're just staring at this, like big wall of numbers and stuff. And it starts to like, illuminate like different pieces from the board, and it comes together and they solve the problem. That's what it sounds like.
Effy
Yeah, that is, and it's like a million ideas like coming together at the same time. And then when I consume information, it's just like, it just hovers around. I don't like I don't have a working memory, as you know.
Jacqueline
So let me ask you a question. Because you also have felt like you have done more in relation in some of your adult relationships. So what does that look like for you? For me, it feels like holding all of the pieces and making sure they get executed? What does that look like for you?
Effy
Yes, not doing though the manifest is doing and I don't think about is doing, it's more like, I feel like I take on the strength of the connection more than the other person. And that is a combination of being doing. Knowing, you know, I think it's like more of a bit like my brain is like older, you know, all the things at the same time that connect in a weird kind of way, right? Yeah, I've noticed this across multiple relationships, like the trend across multiple relationships that I was like, as long as I invested in the relationship, the relationship was going really well. And as long as I was like, fully connected my very last relationship, I feel like I was doing a lot of the work to have the connection available. So things that common shared interests and like places that we would go to, and like really engineered and design the relationship. But without really a common shared goal. I was like, I know what's right for me, and I know what's right for this other person. And I'm just gonna go forth and like, create this world. And I'm going to take interest in the things that they're interested in. So we have like a rich conversation, and I'm going to calibrate to their sexual expression. And I'm going to almost like hotwire intimacy, because I, you know, learn and understand how the other person's feeling. So it's not like, doing the things that life requires, because I can't do those things. For myself, and never mind for somebody else. But more like things that really, you know, make the connection, if you will.
Jacqueline
Right, you extended your bridge further, it sounds like.
Effy
Yes, that's a beautiful way to put it.
Jacqueline
To meet them where they are at both our cases, we both were designed and held the world that we were living in with this, these people, you created the world. And it sounds like you created a world that was more skewed towards their wants, yes, I have created a world, frankly, that's probably more skewed towards my wants and needs. Right, and which is why I had to manage more of the work of it. Because I was like, if we're going to do things, we're going to do them my way. And my way, who's the best person to do? That? You all you need to do is just get up, get dressed and get on the train, like we're gonna I'm gonna take you to where you need to go. And you can't get dressed and get on that damn train now Piske because I'm doing all the other work, but it was towards my own vision. And it sounds like for you, you created the connection again, but it was it was really meeting them where they were at.
Effy
Yeah, yeah, I think I think the extending the bridge further is a great, great analogy. I think that's that's kind of what my trend has been. And of course, I did the digging of like, why does this happen, because we are the common denominators of our of our lives. And it's something that's coming up, we, you know, we need to look within. And also really, we are the only person that we can look within so might as well. Of course with any of these, these I trace it down, trace it down. And it really is an echo of my relationship with my dad, which historically has been an exemplary relationship like our you know, family, friends, relatives, you know, it is, it is one of those like stories told, like how good my father and I get on. And I have also held on to that narrative for a very, very long time. Like, I've already reached my dad, you know, I love and respect him and all that kind of stuff. And when I was doing this work of like, why is this happening? And by that as soon as I decide, should I decide as soon as I decide that I don't want to do that work anymore, the relationships start to disintegrate really fast. And the other person kind of like starts scrambling around and doesn't really understand why things aren't like rosy and happy like they have been right and wider like I was I'm putting the same effort in as yesterday. But today for some reason. It's not we don't have this like amazing relationship. And I think that really well done onto it, it was my relationship with my father isn't that way, right, like we do have a great relationship. And I work really hard at that, you know, and he appreciates it and enjoys it. I don't think he realizes that I do disproportionate amount of work in that relationship. You know, it's like, a great example in that situation which is, so where I come from backgammon as a as a game. It's like a second type of board game, if you don't know what it is, look it up. It's fun. But you know, it's something that you know, my dad is a man of few words. He's not, you know, he's not into long, drawn out conversations. But I figured out that if I learned to play backgammon, he plays Beckham and he plays really well. He beats me still beats me, you know, that if I put learn to play backgammon, he and I could spend time together? That isn't necessarily anchored in conversation, which is I would like, right, so going back to your Jackie, if it was up to me, I'd be like, we're having conversations, you know, what more I was like, let me meet you where you're at, which is you don't want to have like long conversations. Let me learn backgammon satisfies my curious brain anyway. And so let's like that's how we connect now. Yeah, right. So that's kind of what it looks like, for me. Oh, that completely resonates? Yeah, again, is a really good point to make that and we're gonna keep making that. Like, it's important. The distinction between a parental relationship, and a lover relationship is different. And we need to make sure it's different. I think as we explore this, it's worth kind of like one note in the echoes are coming from parental side. Like for me, it's coming from, like, my examples to do with my dad is like, I am in your daughter's situation. And then you're telling your side of story. You're in my dad's situation. So we are discussing parental relationships alongside with our romantic relationships. I think it is one too good to note that the parallels, right?
Jacqueline
Exactly. Cause that's the origin story to for some, right? We'll get into that.
Effy
Exactly. And two like, ensuring that there is a separation and distinction, right, there's work to be done to make that distinction really, really obvious and visceral, so that we can also make room for the erotic and the that sort of the adult relationship that we need from our adult relationships. And you know, partners and lovers and all that.
Jacqueline
Yeah, yeah. I can give some adult relationship examples of what you have shared of extending myself I can think about this, particularly, let's say in my 20s, teens and 20s. And I think this is a phenomena at least here in the States potentially for folks socializes women of watching my boyfriend, play video games, sitting on the couch, not doing anything, watching them play video games. And even up until recently, I would say, you know, my partner now plays video games, not as much, but there were times where when I like that was the thing we were doing. And by we meaning they were doing that I was watching, or going to a party or hanging out with my partner's friends. And I was not I did not enjoy it. I did not like them, I did not feel seen, I did not want to be there walking there. I felt like oh, like that pit in my stomach. But I would do that, right? Like I would extend my bridge to their worlds, because that is the place where I thought we would connect. So yes, I've totally been in that place. And I'm, you know, in even though you and I number one, think differently and approach kind of the work that we do in relationship differently. I'm hearing a pattern that I want to name, which is it feels like in each of our scenarios, we started down with felt like the obvious path for us, like, Oh, this is the thing that we do. And then it sounds like for each of us at some point, there was like a glimmer of like moral superiority, like we're gonna be doing this thing, like learning learning back him and then look at me, giving you breakfast in bed, right? Then that turns into obligation. Like, oh, now this is the dynamic I set up, I need to keep doing this, which then turns into overwhelm. I don't want to do this anymore. This feels like a lot, which then turns into resentment. Why the hell do I have to be the one to do this, you're not doing this, right. And so we go from like, obvious tomorrow, superiority to obligation to overwhelm to resentment and just are like, find ourselves in this terrible circle. Because even when we get to resentment, we get back to obvious path, because we're like, I just want there to be common goodness between us. And if I have to be the one to extend the leaf, then we'll do that. And the obvious path is for me to do and then we back in it again.
Effy
Yes, yes. I think, you know, I think you're spot on. And I think I don't think it's just us who I think that is a pattern that a lot of people experience, right? I think, in a way, the fact that we have such different ways of thinking about things and to an extent being in the world. It shows that the fact that we can find ourselves in the same pattern is like oh, it might just be beyond the two of us. I think it is you know, I think it's probably a lot of people resonate. And by the way, if you're listening and you're hearing this, this pattern, and you're like oh my god, this is just an average month for me. II? Let us know, like, drop a note on our Instagram. Yeah, you know, write to us, let us know. Because I think that's, I think that is a pattern for a lot of us. Yeah. And then when I look at myself, like, personally, when I reflect on it personally, like, what are the things? Like, why do I do the thing that I do? Like, why? What is my constitution? What are the what parts of my constitution that really contribute to these to this right to, for me to show up in this like, apparently disproportionate effort towards connection? Right? I think some of it is just people pleasing, I think it's a defense mechanism, I think it's, you know, we all have it, it's like wanting the connection, you know, it's, you know, if I fancy somebody, I want to have a connection, so I can build the connection. Or if somebody you know, if I love somebody, like, you know, like, parental love, like, I obviously want my dad in my life. And so that connection is important to me. So I think some of it is like, wanting that connection, that very specific connection. And then and then contributing to that is like some unchecked Empath behavior, just just knowing, you know, having that having that empathic superpower that is about just being so being able to connect to the other person, and knowing what they want and, and instinctively kind of using that information to hotwire the connection. And to make it all feeling nice for everyone. I think some of it is, idealization. I think I did looking back, I did idolize my dad. And I think that idealization sometimes shows up in my partnerships. And then expectations, you know, like, I also have high standards, they're just different, you know, they're different than the cleans dishes in the world, you know, but I do have, you know, expectations, and I think those are just like anybody else who's in a relationship, and you those go unsaid, or, I'm aware of them. So I'm dragging us all, towards that expectation. And because I imagine it, because I see it in my mind's eye, I can make it happen for everyone. And that is a, you know, that is a thing that I work with clients all the time, which is I assume a common shared vision without actually confirming it, you know, I in my head, one relationship to look this way. And yeah, and I think it's been great for everyone, but I haven't really checked in, you know, I didn't really check in with, with my partner and be like, hey, like, my colon shared vision for our relationship is that we're going to travel the world and like, have a much more of a fluid, you know, whatever connection, yeah, and that our love language is, you know, touch and kind of moving together. And, and they're like, I just thought that we're going to like, you know, plant the garden, and, you know, raise some chickens. Right? Those are very different visions. Right. So you do need to kind of have a, you know, I think you know, that common shared vision is an important thing to discuss.
Jacqueline
Yes, yes, yes, yes. Which is alright, so, so we spent some time talking about if you're on the side of I do more, I want to spend a minute talking on the other side, right. So now, if you've been listening, and you're the one who is beat, who has been told in your relationship, that you don't do enough, that your partner is doing more than you, let's talk to you for a moment. First, I want to say, I think you know if that is true, right? So there may be times where you know, actually that you're not putting in more effort that you know that you're distracted, that you know that you're not engaged and interested. And so you are not truly putting in as much, you don't feel like doing the dishes, you don't feel like doing the thing, you don't feel romantically whatever that is. If that's the case, then that's true. I can't argue now with your partner, that is true, you're doing less. However, there are probably times also where you actually don't feel like you were doing less, you feel like you are doing less, because you don't have that shared expectation of what it is you're supposed to be doing. And so for example, let's use the example of the clean house and the clean kitchen. If you are the person who values ease, relaxation, comfort and connection, more than the cleanliness of your house, when your partner keeps harping on you to say, you're not cleaning things, you're not doing it, you clearly don't care, you're not doing enough. It's not that you're not doing enough, you're doing plenty to create ease and connection within your environment, which is the thing that you actually value. So it's not a mismatch of, of, of action. It's a mismatch of values or mismatch of understanding.
Effy
I think that's absolutely key. And this is where the relationship going back to the relationship math, right? It's not as simple as 5050 equals 100. Right? You know, you're now getting into some algebra and you know, like, what are you what are you putting your weights on? Right, what is like, so, you know, if the other person's doing that they're 100% towards a certain goal. All, we are certain, you know, a certain way of being or a certain value. And for some reason you don't value that as No, you don't value that at the 100% level, but it's like it lower on your value system than that 100% can register, like 70% 30%. No percent, yes. Because it's not something that you value. Right. So now you're looking at, you're looking at much more complicated math than that.
Jacqueline
Yes. Which is. So in the beginning, we said, you know, that relationships with parents and children are designed to be disproportionate. But the question is, why do we choose adult relationships that feel disproportionate? And I would argue that I think that we met because if you look at my relationship history, in most of my adult relationships, I have partnered with somebody who does not put in the same and I'm using air quotes, you can't see me unless you're on Patreon. And you want to watch what you are seeing, I'm seeing myself as doing more work, when truly I've realized now it is different work. I have partnered with folks who value ease and play and connection, more than the doing of the things on the ticker list. And because I'm the one who's in the hustle of doing the thing, and getting up early and making the thing happen, and serving the breakfast, like I have been, and when I compare my action, during the day to theirs, the math told me I was doing more. But I have something deep inside of me that has longed for ease and play, chose these people, in order to say Jackie, put down the dishes, put down the slack, put down email, and come and just sit on the couch and be yesterday, my daughter and I were walking home from gymnastics class and it started to rain. And so of course, my mind was like, alright, we need to hustle to get home, we need to like look for any, you know, covering that we can like dash into and out of, you know, in order to walk the rest of the 10 blocks home. While I'm in my mind trying to navigate the quickest path and the driest path to the house. My daughter is in the rain, tongue open mouth open trying to catch raindrops in her mouth. Right. That is a beautiful illustration. And I can share I'll share partnership example as well. But that's a beautiful illustration of the difference of how we saw that moment. And in that moment, I could be frustrated with her and say I am the only one who is trying to get us home in the middle of this rainstorm. You're out here playing and I'm trying to get us home. Right. But what I realized in that moment was we've 10 blocks to go, there's really nothing I can do to make sure I do not get wet. I might as well catch some raindrops on my tongue. And so I too, opened my mouth. And we counted the raindrops that we could catch on our way home. And so if I valued if my percentile of my math was how are we going to get home in the most efficient way? I won that game, right? But if I valued the joy in her experience and getting home, if I valued play, if I valued connection, if I valued lightness, honestly, she won, she won that would that match. And so the connection between the two of us met we both did our 100% the math wasn't 5050 it wasn't 7030 She did her 100% of being fun. I did my 100% of getting us home safely. And we did both right and got home and we caught some raindrops.
Effy
Yes, yes. Yes, exactly. I have a question. Do you when you were her age? So around 10? Would you have caught the raindrops? Or would you have tried to stay dry? Because some of it is just child childlike behavior? Because because she's a child. Right? And I know that of course. Like there's also beyond that. And I was just curious, the weather. Whether you for you if it's like more like a runs deeper than that, or is it like fully conditioned? Yeah.
Jacqueline
I think well, I mean, let's, I'll give you some examples with my ex husband, he loved traveling, he loved New Orleans, he loved music, he loved food. And so I did so much more of those things and got those experiences in my life because he created that with my partner now, you know, I will be working and and it'll be past, you know, six o'clock, seven o'clock, and I'm still working and she'll take my hand and like, bring me into the living room and just start dancing. Or she'll be like, Okay, now we're just gonna watch this cartoon and like, chill out for a little while, like she'll bring ease and play into my life. And again, if my scorecard was did all the things get done, I win every single time. If my scorecard is is my life more enhanced, it is more joyful and my thriving because of this partnership, that my math went out the window.
Effy
You know, I think in your situation, you kind of arrived at a beautiful place also like you by making your math more complicated, meaning having more partners in the equation, you've actually kind of make you actually kind of made the math, the math work, you know, over time. I think first On people you're dealing with, you know, if you're dealing with a couple you have, in one hand, you can say, well, you know, you're just, you know, you're just like an equal divide. On the other hand, I think sometimes making your math a little bit more complicated, can help you level it out a little better. So that was worth saying, yeah.
Jacqueline
No, I agree if you're, if you're new to the podcast, and so what if he is Namie is that I am married. And I also have a partnership. And so in my relationship with my wife, we are both high achievers, we are both folks that are focused on getting things done. And so that feeds that part of me, they are an innumerable amount of LIS in my home, there's flip chart paper and whiteboards in almost every room. Right? And we have and as a result, we have two homes, we have, you know, multiple businesses, we have, like, we were the doing people, right. And I do need that balance. And so my relationship with my partner is very different than that, right? You know, we share our two bedroom apartment with like dogs coming in and out of the home. And we, you know, turn off everything at a certain time and like, cook dinner together and just chill in the evenings and I so I have designed the life for that balance. If I did not have that if I was not inclined to be non monogamous or didn't have these partnerships, I would have to balance that out with friendships and other connections and find relationships that feed my doing this and find other relationships that feed my beingness.
Effy
Absolutely. And I think that is again, this this math gets both simpler and complicated depending on your situation. And sometimes complicated is not a bad thing. Like in in, in Jackie situation, I see that little bit of complication. Let me not play this down. Actually, it is complication, because it actually helps to sort of balance the equation out. I think sometimes it's also worth knowing that sometimes it can be difficult if you are in multiple relationships, and people start comparing how much effort goes into each relationship, you know, that you're, let's say, in the straight math world, you're going well, you do 70% of the work here. I do. I do 30%. And but I see you do 70% of the work on your other relationship. Where is that? Where is that extra? Why don't I get that extra 20% over here where it's available for that. Right? So that also sometimes works in that kind of way. I see that also, in the way that like my extra piece, right? So I see people say, oh, like you're working extra hard for that other connection, but you haven't even noticed that I had a haircut, you know. And so those are all part of this, this this relationship math we're talking about. And I think when you are in and also I should also mention mentioned that, you know, there are plenty of couple of like easy, apparently easy, cheap people relationships that are incredibly disproportionate, you know that some relationships, they would look at the 7030 be like, Oh my God, that would be a dream like I do. Yeah, so honoring all of the things out there. And then just thinking about that, like, thinking about that math and how it distributes for you, and what's important to you, and, and all that kind of stuff. It's worth as we're sort of sitting with that math.
Jacqueline
Yeah. And for both for both. Okay, so now now everyone lets everyone now be at the table, right? So all sides of giving and doing and being right now we're speaking to everyone. I think we'd what I'd want to explore and this is an exploration I've done for myself, why is that? Why am I doing it that way? Right? I think there's a little octopus turtle in there, right? So a little bit of folks who and if you don't know that reference, go listen to our octopus turtle. But essentially, it's a little byproduct of our childhood experiences and our DNA, which plug for next week's podcast episode because we are going to be doing an episode about actually how our actual DNA and evolution impacts how we show up in relationships, which some of us may because of either nature or nurture, or the combination of both lean in and take on more, and others lean away and avoid. And so I think that that is a piece of it. I think what you named earlier is is almost exactly right, this idea of expectations. If we don't have shared expectations, we define expectations for yourself is something that is named and agreed upon. If it is not named and agreed upon, it is just a wish, it is not an expectation and holding other people to the expectation of either ease or effort is not fair. Unless that is something that you both have agreed to.
Effy
And by the way, I think I mean correct me if I'm wrong, but I mean when we say Gucci doesn't necessarily mean like I can have an expectation and name it and we can agree that that will expectation is not going to be met. Right? Yes, I think important thing is that it is that is communicated and there is a it's like there was a decision made on it right. So I can say I have an expectation that you know my partner is going to read my mind and know my ever changing moods and thoughts and join me in conversation. You know that script from one topic to another, while I'm you know, halfway through decide to do a handstand against the wall, right? I can have that expectation. While and my, you know, my partner can be like, Yeah, I see, that's your expectation. I'm just not, I'm not gonna be able to fulfill that expectation.
Jacqueline
Yes, yes, yes, exactly. Right, exactly. Right. So, you know, a story that I've heard my whole life, from my siblings to my, to my daughter, to my partnerships, is that I have high expectations, and higher than the other person. And so when I, again, try to live a life based on that expectation, I've taken on the responsibility of doing more, because I'm like, Well, I want to live up here. If that means that I got to do more of the work, then fine, I'm going to do more of the work to get there. But that was not a collaboration. I was just trying to control the situation, right and saying, This is the thing that we have to do. A collaboration is saying, How is it that we want to feel in this space? You know, I noted last week, in the episode about pegging that a theme that I keep hearing across all of our conversations, no matter the topic, is that we need to think about how we want to feel in any given situation, and not just what we want to do. And if we want to feel connection and ease and we want to feel peace of mind and what then right that that goes back to nonviolent communication and the needs and feelings list. And if I want to feel peace of mind and peace of mind to me translates as a clean house, because it's hard for me to have peace of mind. If there's dirty dishes and there's clothes all over the place, then that's the conversation I can have with my partner, not you never pick up anything or clean anything and I'm tired of it. Instead the conversation is peace of mind is really important for me. And one of the ways that I have peace of mind is not to feel claustrophobic in my home by mess. And so what can we do to create that peace of mind? Very different conversation? Yeah.
Effy
Yes, absolutely. I think shared value system and a common shared goal are really important things to have in any relationship on an indiscretion that is on an ongoing basis right? And I think the answer to the how you feel is often a way to get to like the value that is really important to me and that goes back to again like the weighting of the math right so peace of mind you know you've your for your value system peace of mind is number one and for me value you know a peace of mind isn't my value system like number seven rain? So the effort that goes towards peace of mind is going to be registered as less on the other side. So like deciding on what is our value system what are the priority of our value system right? What are the things that are really important to us? So let's say someone like me right so for me actually peace of mind. Interestingly the opposite to you is a room that I will feel peace of peace and in control of my life will look very different to yours right? Mine will be a mine is often like post its and like books left open on on the on the coffee table. So I know like I need to read it at some point in my bouncing around my house, I want to get I want to get put that book in sight. So I will read it because for me out of sight out of mind, right? So there are things out left in places to give myself cues that those are the things that need to be handled, right? That's the 100 tabs that's open in my browser. They're not open because I like don't shut them they're open because I need a physical cue to tell me like remember you supposed to finish like signing up for this account? So understanding having a deeper dive into that as well. Right? Let's say peace of mind is really important to you and peace of mind is really important be like what does it look like? If yours is this like neat, organized office that you just like see want to see nothing but you know where everything is? Like that's going to give me anxiety because I'm going to constantly thinking what am I forgetting? What am I not seeing? What is the thing that I was pushed to do? Right? You're gonna walk into my office, and my office is gonna look like chaos to you. And as soon as I go in, I'm gonna, like, breathe a sigh of relief and be like, Oh, okay, like everything that's like hovering in my mind is now visually in front of me. And I and whatever I touch, I'm going to solve some problem. You might not be in the order that it needs to be done. But at least I know that if I like pick up that book and be like, oh book, I was supposed to read that chapter. It's it's right now here in my hand, I can read that chapter. I'm like, done, right? I go to my browser, I click on a tab. I'm like, oh, that thing that I was supposed to finish. And in that moment, I have a chance of finishing it because I see it right. So when I go into my office, I see opportunity you go into my office, you see chaos. And the way that translates into a relationship if you imagine you need to once agree on the values you need to say, what is it gonna look like? Like what does it take for you to have that feeling that that value meant, you know, those are really important conversations.
Jacqueline
I am so glad you gave that example baby because it just I know, I know more, I learned more of how you be I 100% believe we should take pictures of our offices and put it on Instagram. Because what you have described is right, everything in my office is exactly in a particular spot. It's color coded, like everything is a particular way. But it's interesting, because what you have described around the open books and the open tabs is in my mind, so I need it to be in my space. And what you have is you have the you know, because that's on your mind, it has to be physically out there. So I think that's, I think that is a perfect illustration of what we're talking about, which is the way in which you navigate the world, you think you feel you believe the way you want to be isn't a particular way, and you're trying to design your life around that. And I'm trying to design my life around the way I want to think and being with us in combination, then have to then have a shared value system and design a shared understanding of what quality of life looks like. So I want to go even beyond values, right. So certainly value system, there are things that we need to do actually do in order to create the kind of life that we want to have. And those things require time and energy and thoughtfulness. And so I think, after the conversation around values as a conversation, okay, well, what do we need to do? And how are we going to divide up the tasks, and based on our strengths, and based on where it fits on our values list, and then agree to let the person do that work? Right? You take care of the food, because you're going to be so much more creative than I am in terms of meal, I'm going to cook for efficiency, I'm gonna cook to use the least amount of pans, you're gonna be like, I want to use paprika, and cumin, and I saw this thing once and this recipe, and it's a we're gonna eat much more interesting. And food, if you are in charge of it,
Effy
We will eat like 9:30pm.
Jacqueline
But then that's fine, because then I'll know I'm gonna have a salad at 6:30 When I need to eat and just anticipate a wonderful, delightful, you know, creative meal at nine. But how can we buy relationship by design? Which is the work that you do? How can we design something that actually fits both of us? And I think that means two things. I think, number one, it is creating that division of labor and then doing check ins around that check in at the end of the month, check in at the end of the quarter, like how does this feel this the way that we're dividing this up? And the other is to be okay, with how it's being done? You know, my my daughter is in charge of the dishes, for example, my wife does the laundry, and neither of them do it how I would want. If that's their thing, that's their job, I need to let them do it, I need to let go of control and let them do the thing.
Effy
Yes, I think, again, the order of operations for once I've got order of operations. I think I remember reasons that I I think that's really effective in these kinds of situations is to get clear on the common shared goal and the value system. And then, like translate that into doing which is what you're saying, right? Which is like what is what is it going to take for us to do that? Right? Yes? And then who's doing all of this? Like who's doing what? Yeah, correct. I think once you kind of work through that, and then the important piece is, of course, right? And I would say the reason why we get to this, like 7030 situation, or more or less is that we all have our favorite strategies for doing these things. We all have these ideal ways like Jackie would has an ideal way of doing the laundry, right? That letting go peace is letting go. And I think also being creative about when it can look like yes, I agree. And I think, you know, it's not going to look exactly the same. That's why we're going to continue to refer back to like, but is this a feeling that I want to like? Do I feel? Is it about me being very stuck with how things are my favorite strategy of how it's done? Or can I dial into the why can I dial into the value? It's actually fulfilling? And the feeling that I wanted to have? Do I have those things? versus, you know, is my is my laundry folded into threes?
Jacqueline
Yes, exactly, right. And then let me give some examples that are not for folks who are nesting partnerships and don't have shared shores, right. That could mean a distinction around how you see connection. So I know in my adult partnerships that there has been conflict before when I was like, okay, tonight, we're just going to settle down and we're going to connect. And for me, that meant no devices staring into each other's eyes, and like learning each other's deepest secrets. And for my partner, it meant sitting next to each other holding hands while we were watching TV. Right? That they were like I am exhausted from the day I want to no matter what we do, I want to do in that space with you. But I'm not That's not what I mean. If we both walk into that, saying we're going to connect tonight and we're both in agree that we're going to connect tonight and our definitions around connection are very different. We're getting some you know, we're both gonna be disappointed. Another example could be around romance. I may say to my partner, you know, I want you I want to know that you're thinking about me throughout the day. And for me that could be send me a line of poetry, you know, every hour send me you know, a photo of something, and they may just send me like a heart emoji, like every few hours and they feel like they're checking the box of the thing that I wanted But there so it no matter what the example it is do Is there some shared understanding. And the other piece, I'm going to make it a little bit more complicated and just add this moment of when you're thinking about your values, I'm going to challenge you because I have had to go through this work of why is that a value of yours. So the value of mind, for example I named is, you know, the food has to be a certain way a protein and starch and, uh, honestly, and transparently between you, me and the, you know, 1000s of people listening, it doesn't have to do anything about the food chart or like my healthy body, it is about worthiness and trying to prove that I am that kind of mother and partner, right? That my daughter is going to go to school with a packed lunch that includes all the things that's actually not about, I mean, it is about her being healthy, but it is about a an idea of motherhood and idea of womanhood and idea of partnership and idea of that I am trying to live into show, is that actually worth the hustle? is me trying to live it that worth the hustle.
Effy
Right. And I think that is, you know, I think I think that actually is a value right? I wouldn't say the food is the value. I think the value is like worthiness is an important value for you that you are you're the one that I want to challenge frankly, right. I mean, by all means I think that just Yes, absolutely the back the layer I hear right. Because I think that drives you in sure making much for your your daughter that's like you know with clementines and whatever. Nuts and deliciousness you told me about this morning, no nuts, no nuts in public. I will get my my kids kicked out of schools, I'd like to get nutritious snack and just throw it in there. Because I didn't put a post it somewhere that says no nuts in the lunchbox. I think because that the void that is the value because I'm sure it also affects your other decisions down the other areas of your life. Right. So the food and the doing pieces, not the value. It's like what is it? What is it that is trying to fulfill? And then a good clue, actually to know that it is a value for you is that when it also shows up and affects other decisions and behaviors and the other parts of your life? Right?
Jacqueline
Yes. Yes. So we named that part of the process is establishing what our shared values are figuring out how does that manifest into actual activities and kind of dividing that up based on shared expectations? I think the other piece that I have learned over time is understanding what our role is in the thing. There have been many times where my partner believed that they were being helpful. And I did not think that. Because I realized over time, there's a difference between being controlling, being a collaborator, being a cheerleader, and being a helper, right, those all show up differently. So there are times where I'm like, Oh, my God, I'm so overwhelmed. Like, I got to do dinner, and then I go to shopping. And my partner would be like, Okay, how can I help? And that question actually can be really annoying. How can I help assumes that you don't actually know what's necessary to do in order for us to eat? Right? Or I'm like, oh, you know, we Christmas is coming the holidays. And I want to think about something that that's fun for us and how we're going to connect and what we're going to do and want to make it romantic and sweet and New Year's and Oba. And you're like, Okay, how can I help? How can I help me as I'm in charge of figuring out the details and I'm gonna I'm gonna delegate responsibilities to you over your vision of my vision, right? Exactly.
Effy
Your vision is as really important.
Jacqueline
Correct. And so in that dynamic that is a controller, helper. Dynamic, right? There'll be other times where it'll be a controller cheerleader dynamic, where I'm like, I'm doing so many things, and they're like, Go Jackie, go, you can do it. I love it, you're so great. Really what the aim is, should be a collaborator relationship. Let's talk about what we want the holidays to look like and feel like, and let's talk about how we're going to work together make that happen, versus I have a very clear vision for New Year. I'm gonna do the thing be mad at you that you're not helping with the thing, be overwhelmed about the thing and actually be so caught up in the manifestation and execution of the thing that I forget that we're supposed to just be connecting.
Effy
Right, right, right.
Jacqueline
An easy tell, if you're in that if you're in that dynamic of controller, helper controller cheerleader, like essentially, if you're not in the collaborator environment, an easy tell is, if you're if you're the controller, and your ticker is really loud. Or if you feel like you have extended your bridge too far. That feeling and you know, when you're getting that feeling means something is is there's not synergy, right, or view on the other side, and you're like, How can I help? How can I help? If you're asking how can I help? There's like, synergy, right. And in those moments, you can say, oh, there's misalignment here. There's misalignment because you seem overwhelmed. And I actually don't know what why, like, I don't know what you're working towards, or I am overwhelmed. And I feel like I'm doing more in both of those cases. It's a moment to pause and say, Hey, are we aligned right now? I'm not sure revisit that.
Effy
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Again, we're gonna keep coming back to that, right, that if you can have those bigger conversations around, what is it? You know, what is it that we're trying to work towards that common shared vision? I think, a good way for people to work this out for themselves, right? Like, where are we in terms of our relationship? Right. So I know that people listen to the show. I know that people have like discussion groups around the show. I think a good for people something to think about is that if you're the person that you're saying, What can how can I help the 99% of the time, you're saying because you want to be helpful, right? You want to you want to do the right thing, the opposite end of that, actually, somebody assuming they know that what needs to be done in going head without checking in either, right? So that's when you have like, two different visions? I think in those moments, it's worth saying what like asking yourself before you think, can I help asking yourself, what are we working towards? If you can't answer that question, then instead of saying, Can I help, you can say, hey, can we just agree on what we're doing? Yeah. And then again, I tried to catch these things. Not at the in the thick of it, but as things come up, and having cues and clues in place to be like, okay, you know, if I'm asking What am I, you know, can I help? Just before that, let me just think or jump to doing something, let me just think, what are we working towards? Am I clear? Am I getting a clear answer? You can even check with your partner and say, oh, okay, so are we working towards this, like fancy, elaborate Christmas in our home? And we invite everybody over? And are we are we hosting, like the parents? And everybody else is like, like, what is it that? Okay, then you can then you connect, if you missed out on that that vision, if you missed that?
Jacqueline
And also, why are we doing that? What are we trying to feel?
Effy
Exactly, exactly right. I think that just having those competitions littered in, and constantly aligning and adjusting to make sure that you know that you are designing the relationship by design idea, and that designing a relationship is a dynamic process, you know, I talked about it's conscious and dynamic, right? Those are really important factors. And I think having these conversations along the way, and looking at the cues, like right now, what we're talking about is through these, like some fun stories and surface, these are the things that happen, every relationship, right? I see it so often, if not chronically, at some certain points in the relationship, they can provide us a place to heal the pace to connect place to grow, and continue to design the relationship. So it's worth asking those questions along the way. If you say, can I help? If you say I'm overwhelmed, right, exactly. Yeah, I'm overwhelmed. My ticket is so loud right now, I can't think of anything. I'm just just oh, you know, everything is out of control, stop and think like, are you doing the things that you agree to win everybody else? Like? Are you just like taking off on your own? And the reason why you don't have any support or appreciation or recognition? Or, you know, help all those things? Is it because you just forgot to tell people what you're doing? Yes. Right, or did or not have those conversations or just went ahead with something without really checking if it was aligned with everybody else in your life? Have those conversations? And then the other hand, if you're constantly saying, What can I help or you being told that you're not doing enough, you're not pulling your weight and everything else, too, just to say like, what are we working towards? Do I really want to subscribe to that, right? Yeah, maybe I don't want to subscribe to you know, a pristine kitchen. Right? So does that how is that gonna work out? Right? Is it gonna work out? Right? Yes. So these are all good ways to reflect on both yourself and the relationship. Yeah, I love it. So if you are thinking about relationship, maths, it's not as simple as 5050 or equal distribution. What you're looking for is not symmetry, but it is synergy.
Jacqueline
Hmmm. Wishing everyone good synergy vibes,
Effy
Good synergy, good alignment, good calibration. Like those that language really helps people because that's all about collaboration and and multiple things aligning and multiple things working together. So think about it in those terms, rather than what ideally what you do. But how can we get aligned? How can we collaborate? How can we calibrate to one another?
Jacqueline
All right, I'll have to give up my moral superiority I do want to you list in my mind. If this episode has resonated with you, or you want to hear more from other listeners than come find us on our Facebook group at we are curious foxes. And if you're still curious, want to geek out on more nerdy, sexy, historical controversial topics. Then go to our website where you can check out blogs or articles that we have educators authors and FBI about sex tips for thriving and open monogamous relationships and resources for personal growth. You can find us on our website at WWE are curious foxes, behind the scenes footage mini episodes and over 50 videos from educator lead workshops, go to patreon. Also at we are curious foxes. You can support this work by subscribing on Apple podcast, or following us on Spotify or Stitcher. Send us a rating or comment to let us know that you're listening. And we want to hear from you tell us about podcast moments that have felt impactful, or what topics you'd like us to explore. You can share with us by emailing us or sending us a voice memo to listening at we're curious foxes.com Or you can record a question for the show by calling 646-450-9079
Effy
This episode is produced and edited by Nina Pollack, whose collaboration provides a synergy support and strength. Our intro music is composed by dev Sahar, we are so grateful for their work. And we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends,
Jacqueline
Things to know if you are in a relationship with someone that ADHD.
Effy
In reality, relationship math is more complicated than that, because of the value system of each person's contribution. Sorry, Okidokiii.
Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic. We solely aim to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind, and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends.
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