Ep 124: Relationship Escalator, Solo Poly, and Singledom-by-Choice with Amy Gahran
Art by @martina.francone
Is a relationship a success only if it progresses in a socially prescribed sequence of states from dating to till-death-do-us-apart - also known as the relationship escalator? What is solo polyamory and how is it different from good-old-fashion dating? Why does single-by-choice carry so much stigma?
Effy and Jacqueline invite journalist and author Amy Gahran to the show to discuss the relationship escalator, what it looks like to get off it or opt out of it in the first place, solo polyamory, voluntary singledom, couple’s privilege and its flip side, singleism.
Guiding us in this conversation is Amy Gahran (AKA Aggie Sez)
Amy Gahran is the author of "Stepping Off the Relationship Escalator: Uncommon Love and Life." She lives in Colorado. Some people know Amy by her old pen name, Aggie Sez.
https://www.facebook.com/offescalatorOffEscalator.com
To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla on Instagram.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Effy
Welcome to the Curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.
Jacqueline
And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today we're talking about the relationship escalator, who it works for who doesn't, and the alternatives such as solo Polly or Singleton. The relationship escalator is the phrase that describes the prescribed social norms and sequence of steps attached to romantic relationships, from dating to monogamous partnership to marriage and a home and children until death do us part. Essentially, it's what society deems to be the path for a quote unquote, real and successful relationship.
Effy
Despite the fact that both Jacqueline and I are non monogamous, and queer, and between us, we've covered the gamut of relationship situations from singledom. To solo poly to marriage, we continue to find ourselves writing and talking about relationships from a couples perspective on our first drafts. The idea of the relationship escalator and the couple's privilege is so prevalent. It takes discipline and perseverance to keep a broader mindset about relationships.
Jacqueline
If the relationship escalator does not work for you, avoiding or stepping off that path can be difficult. When everything society points us towards and judges us by the escalator.
Effy
To talk to us about the relationship escalator, we spoke to the person who literally wrote the book on the subject.
Amy Gahran
Hi, I'm Amy Garhan, I am a journalist, writer, author, publisher, a lot of people know me by my book, stepping off the relationship escalator, uncommon love and life.
Effy
We started by asking her to describe the relationship escalator.
Amy Gahran
Yeah, people may not have heard about it, but they definitely know it. So this is the bundle of social norms that govern how relationships that include significant levels of intimacy, especially sexual romantic intimacy are supposed to work, how they're supposed to get begin, how they're supposed to progress, what's their trajectory? What are their goals, I knew a few of the norms. And then with the process of doing the research for this book, I identified a couple that were kind of hiding under the surface. So the first norm of we'll call them traditional relationships, escalator relationships, is the 800 pound gorilla that's very visible monogamy, which means sex and romance are shared exclusively between two and only two people. And so that's kind of the traditional definition of monogamy, and then comes merging. And cohabitation is a big part of this. If a relationship gets serious, eventually you're supposed to go home and want to move in together. That's about merging the infrastructure of your life, sharing finances, buying property together, you know, all that stuff. But it's also about merging identity, about thinking and acting in presenting socially as a couple. And then there is hierarchy. And this is actually a big part of monogamy, there can be only one is one hell of a hierarchy. And the thing about hierarchy in traditional escalator relationships, is that your partner on the escalator is supposed to be with the exception of relationships that have significant care based responsibility like raising minor children or caring for disabled, you know, family or elderly relatives. It's supposed to take default priority above almost every other relationship in your life. Your romantic partner, your escalator partner is supposed to take for instance, priority over your closest friends or family members. You're always supposed to consider your escalator partner first and take care of your responsibilities and that relationship. Whatever else is leftover is available for other connections that you may feel important. So those are like the big three and then hiding under the surface I realized. Another important norm of the relationship escalator is the assumption that this relationship includes sex and romance, or at least that it did at the beginning. And that this was an important part of the relationship At least at the beginning, after that, the one that was really hiding under the surface is the presumption of continuity and consistency that this relationship will continue on this path. And that once you reach the pinnacle of that escalator, which is a legally married and cohabitating, and socially presenting Couplehood, that this is supposed to be always in forever, and until death do you part which means that the only way you actually know if you've done the escalator thing, right is when somebody dies? Yeah. Yeah. So those were the five main hallmarks of escalator relationships, there are nuances. It doesn't always work in every culture or subculture. And so I'm not trying to say that for everybody in the background that they grew up in that this is the norm for everybody. But it's the norm for a lot of people. And more importantly, it is privileged and institutionalized. For instance, legal marriage, when you look at is essentially institutionalized couple privilege, that provides an awful lot of legal financial, governmental benefits, you get better mortgage rates, if you're a married couple that's presumed to be monogamous. Yes.
Jacqueline
Health care in the United States is so tied to partnership.
Amy Gahran
One thing I learned recently is that it's hard for people who are working in government or defense jobs to get a security clearance if they acknowledge that they're not monogamous. I mean, it shows up in all sorts of weird places. But it is very privileged and institutionalized, which is important. But that's not the only reason why people ride the escalator. I mean, it works. It really works. For a lot of people, sometimes it works because of all the exoskeleton, you know, all the extra support you get. Because you've chosen that kind of relationship, you get a lot of extra validation, and recognition and support and health care, and all that sort of stuff, at least in the US. But it really resonates for a lot of people, and that is fine. The reason why I just I did this book is to let people know that the escalator is an option. It is one of many options. It's important to respect all the options that are available. And then I presented in the book, what a whole lot of options look like basically, I went through all the escalator hallmarks one by one, and gave examples of people who are not doing that particular thing.
Effy
Which we definitely want to talk about, though I am curious to whether you have an opinion on why the relationship escalator is so prevalent, so privileged, and so adhered to, if you have any thoughts on that...
Amy Gahran
Oh, wow, you'd have to talk to a real historian about that. I've talked to a couple of the opinion I got from God from the historians I spoke to was mainly about how closely entwined inheritance is, with wealth and property life at property rights and political alliances, that, you know, that steered relationships to at least acknowledged monogamy, you know, most monogamous relationships throughout history, were not really monogamous. But if you wanted to have an heir apparent, you had to have an official relationship that that heir apparent came from. And so that's part of it. But that's just speculation. I'm really wary of kind of looking back historically, and trying to imagine where the norms came from. I tried to deal with society as it exists today, and how it affects people.
Jacqueline
Yeah, I imagine part of what has maintained it also is that certainly it is socially preferred.
Amy Gahran
It's not just preferred, it's promoted, is promoted and subsidized.
Jacqueline
Yes. And you have talked about the distinction between that it's not a staircase, it's an escalator, that it's moving on your behalf. And I think as a result of that, then there's less decisions that need to be made, which can be ideal for some folks, and then their safety and that their safety, there's privilege, there's decision making, I don't need to have the consistent, consistent conversation or what happens next, we all know about that. We may talk about the timing of it. But when you're in the relationship, that safety, security connection, I think is good. One of the things that I know that you've talked about and written about is that when you are ending a relationship, that those things can get into in the way right, that it's easier to make good decisions about a relationship if you don't have to worry about finances and housing and identity. And so I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about that about this may work when you're in it. But if you're trying to exit that escalator, if you realize that you want to jump off that escalator at some point, you're hearing this podcast and you're like, Oh, I didn't realize that was an option. That can be a little challenging.
Amy Gahran
A lot of that is specifically about the merging aspect of the relationship escalator and also to large measure the social aspect of privilege. Privilege is not really just about your identity or the kind of relationship you may have. It is about how other people perceive and treat you. You know, the two things that make it really real really hard for people to leave even terrible, terrible escalator relationships is the level of especially financial entanglement and entertainment. And also worrying about the loss of social privilege feeling like your relationship is a failure and that people will think you are a failure. That's really, really hard that that writing the relationship escalator and staying in it, even if it's hurting you is considered a success. And I got some issues with that. But also the social aspect of it is a lot of times people worry about how other people will treat them and they have reason to be, Okay, talk to anybody who has been who has been divorced, and especially anybody who is older and has been divorced and is not particularly eager to get married, again, it is very first of all, your credit ratings probably going to take a big hit. And then that makes everything financial in your life more difficult. Health insurance will get more expensive. There are lots of of institutional factors that make it daunting to leave, to jump off the escalator. And also, you know, if most of your friends were coupled up and you decide to leave the escalator relationship, you're gonna lose a lot of those friends most likely, because couples aren't comfortable socializing with and, and mutually supporting other couples, because singles are viewed as an intrinsic threat to Couplehood. As I'm speaking in absolutes, here, of course, every situation is different. But you know, when you take a step back, and you look at the social norms, the escalator is designed to make it really scary and hard to jump off.
Effy
I just wanted to extend the point that we actually see the opposite of that in countries like Scandinavian countries where things you don't get privilege for marriage, and you don't get privilege for couples, the subsidies, if you will, are individually based. When you look at your when you look at those societies, there's definitely that that like post marriage societies, you know, they don't marriage marriages only done for romantic sort of almost nostalgic reasons. And people aren't merging lives in a way that that we do in the US. So you see that the promotion and the veg that the government subsidizes these relationships, really has an impact on the choices that we make. When you change those situations. You see whole cultures, whole societies moving away from this relationship, escalator, marriage contract based relationships.
Amy Gahran
Now that's true. But also what's interesting is, I talk a lot with Dr. Peter McGraw, who's a sociologist and a scholar here in Colorado who studies single life and single living. And he constantly reminds people that more than half of US adults live alone. They either are not currently in a relationship, or they choose not to merge their relationship in that way. Sometimes they're widowed, sometimes they're divorced, sometimes they really, really wish they were partnered up. But a lot of people prefer not to merge their life even with all the trade offs in the US that come with that choice.
Jacqueline
Yeah, I'm seeing a trend. I'm interested if you've seen any evolution in the social norm, some of the trends that I'm seeing as browned, beginning to value friendship in a different way than has been in the past and friends and non romantic partners living together sharing expenses, because things are expensive out there and those types of things. And yet, and I love the point that you made, and I never heard it this way that a relationship is considered more valid if it started with sex. So you may not be having sex now you may not have for years, but if it started that way, okay. But if your friends who've been friends forever and not having sex, it sounds like then that doesn't count.
Amy Gahran
That's where the phrase just friends comes from. It's a diminishment. So yeah, that's where I'm talking about the privilege of the escalator. It's sneaky. It comes in even linguistically. This is why people when they first start getting involved with any kind of unusual relationship community, whether it's consensually non monogamous, or kink or the asexual community, they're like, Well, what's with all this jargon? Why do you need all these special words? It's like, well, because all the words we grew up with are biased toward a particular relationship structure instead of values.
Jacqueline
Yeah. Can we talk more about couples centric society and talk about what does that mean and look like and then talk about what it's like to not be coupled? Because to your point earlier, I think that we see so many less examples of that and particularly examples of folks thriving as either single or solo Polly and so we'd love to spend some time on that too.
Amy Gahran
Oh my god, where to start with that. Okay, so I'm here in my home and I have my home decorated with mostly with photos of people I love and who love me, and are right next to my friend Dora is a collection of photos that shows Both of my sweethearts, Bill and Ted, they are the excellent adventure. And also my former spouse and one of my dearest friends, Tom, who actually is my neighbor and lives across the street to women that I consider my soul sisters, Emily and Clarice and my dear departed friend, Michael, who was my mentor in so many ways, and a few other people. And in the middle of that, but higher up and like not really in focus is my large, Irish Catholic extended family, that literally like 52 people, I think I counted it once, from a photo where everybody's head is like tiny, tiny, you can barely see who it is. And then a photo of me and my, my parents, my five siblings, I came from a large family grew up in a crowded house in New Jersey. And invariably, people look around, but they they gravitate toward first, like, oh, is one of these your boyfriend, I'm like, actually, two of them are, what, and then after that, they kind of back away from that, and start looking at the family photos. Because people get uncomfortable when they realize that what is supposed to be the most important relationship that defines you, does not work with social norms. And I've seen that happen as a spy, I love keeping these photos by my front door, because a lot of times when people are leaving the building, see those photos, and they'll notice it. And that's just one issue. But also, you know, if you're taking a taxi and or an Uber and the driver is trying to make conversation, they'll say, are you married? That is so common to get to know you. Question, are you married, and that kind of pegs you socially and it also gives people guidance about how they can interact with you? Do you have kids is another one I have no kids on child free by choice. I watched alien way too many times as a kid ever want to get it? So there's a lot of those those social questions that come up in conversation, it just seemed like I'm just making conversation. But really what's happening is they're trying to peg you socially. Hmm.
Jacqueline
Can you talk a little bit about then what is the experience of someone who chooses not to be partnered, you know, single ism, and what that looks like up against societal norms and couple privilege?
Amy Gahran
Sure. Well, first of all, let's make a quick distinction between solo and single, a single while it is an identity and a valid personal choice. And many people consider themselves single at heart, the scholar Bella DiPaolo, has written an awful lot about that single is largely about relationship status, that you currently have no significant relationships that involve romance and sex that have achieved a level of depth or duration. Single people, you know, they can date they can have sex, you know, they have lots of friends, but they don't really have somebody that they are in love with, you know, they are not really quote unquote, committed, I'm putting scare quotes around this stuff. Because this is all the social norms for singlehood. Solo hood is different, there can be overlap. But solo hood is you may have one or more intimate relationships that really matter to you. But they are not the default priority in your life. And you choose not to merge the infrastructure of your life or identity. With those people solos, either live alone or they you know, don't live with any intimate partner or partners. They typically don't share property with them. They weren't legally married, they don't merge finances with them. And they still can have if they choose to have deep, ongoing, emotionally invested and committed relationships that can last a lifetime. That just don't involve those other hallmarks. And a lot of times people dismiss those relationships is not serious or committed. Without considering that maybe exclusivity, all that merging and the hierarchy that comes along with the escalator might actually interfere with the quality and depth and duration of some people's relationships. Many people who are solo polyamorous because they do not have the social and governmental support that escalator relationships get they really have to focus on building a good web of connection. Resilience is a big thing in solo polyamory making sure you have loadable people you can turn to and resources you can turn to for any kind of support that you need. Again a not universal some soul polyamorous are like I am a rock I am an island you know, and that's okay too. But most most solo polyamorous are very aware of and take very conscious care of their network of support.
Jacqueline
There is such a force of nature it sounds like within our society to draw us towards monogamy to draw us towards As a primary partnership, why would someone choose to be solo Polly? And if they so choose, how can they do that well?
Amy Gahran
People end up in it by choice or circumstance, the circumstantial thing is wow, I really thought I wanted to be on this escalator thing, guess what that relationship ended. Usually they were in a cohabiting relationship, sometimes married, and that ended or they have never been in that kind of relationship, and they just haven't been able to find it. So that's kind of like the circumstantial thing. You tried the escalator. You wanted it, but it didn't work out. And then there are the people who get to it by choice. I'm kind of a blend of that. I was married and trying to be monogamous for a long time for about 18 years. And then my former spouse and I through a variety of stuff became polyamorous, then eventually, we got unmarried. And the process of us getting unmarried was realizing Yeah, this living together thing, we really aren't good at that, at least with each other. And the financially merging stuff. Well, that was a disaster, wasn't it? And then the, the identity, the social things? Well, we've each always had very close friendships with people. And so it's like that hierarchy of intimate partner and friend was never really an issue for us. We were already off the escalator in some very important ways. But I grew up in a crowded house. And I never lived alone until after my former spouse and I got divorced and sold our house and then I lived alone at the age of 42. Well, then I went and moved to in with friend in Oakland for a while, and that was fine. But then I got my own solo apartment for the first time. And I always resisted this, I thought it would be lonely. I thought I would hate it. And after a couple of weeks sitting around this like, this kind of rocks. So I had all already been polyamorous. But then when I ended up circumstantially solo, I realized that like, why didn't I do that to start with? Well, honestly, I didn't know it was really an option. I was a teenager in the 80s, and a young adult in the 90s. And it never occurred to me that I could have any depth of love, affection, connection, intimacy support, if I didn't ride that escalator, which is why I did it. Sure. But it never resonated with my nature. So solo polyamorous people get at it from a variety of ways. And sometimes increasingly, they are people who are single by choice. But who also wants to start bringing more love and affection into their life, they may decide to do that in a non exclusive way, which would be probably solo polyamory, but it can also be swinging or other kinds of consensual non monogamy, or they choose what's increasingly being called a partner's, where you choose to have an unmatched relationship specifically not living together. And that's becoming increasingly popular choice for monogamous people. Even married, where by choice, they decide, yeah, this living together thing not going to work for us. So that's, that's becoming an important thing too. But people get at solo polyamory, but by a variety of routes. But it is almost always at some point, a choice, because it is. So we live in a couple centric society that pushes people toward Couplehood, or at least toward having at least one important sexual and romantic partner in your life. And if you push against the tide of having that like highly merged Couplehood in any way, you're already off that escalator.
Jacqueline
That's right. And people will call you non committal or avoidance. We're not a grown up.
Amy Gahran
Let's just a footnote here. Okay, attachment theory. So much of the language of attachment theory is rooted in escalator assumptions, our own and also white middle class assumption. So I It drives me crazy when I hear everybody in the polyamorous community going on and on about attachment styles. It's like, you realize those characters, all those categories were developed under very biased criteria, right? I don't live very far with those conversations.
Effy
I feel like all of this also leads us into beautiful segue into symbolism, which is also something that we don't hear often. Can you tell us a little bit more about what it is and how it shows up? And how do you recognize it?
Amy Gahran
Symbolism is about the impact of stapler, wherever you have privilege, the flip side of it is going to be stigma where you have white privilege, you will have racism against people who are not white. Okay? If you have gender privilege, where mountain men are privileged, then people who are female or otherwise along the diversity spectrum are not a cisgender male will experience impact from it. This happens with symbolism, too. It's the flip side of couple privilege, that shows up in lots of ways. For instance, there's a fair amount of research showing that people who are single, specifically not married but even not in a cohabiting relationship. If they're doing shift work, they tend to get less, they tend to get the crappy shifts. because it's assumed that the married people need to be home with their wife and kids. Mm hmm. Sure. Another thing that's interesting is that single people are often discriminated against in health care. Because if you are facing saying a cancer diagnosis, and you're going to need a lot of treatment and a lot of support at home, doctors will sometimes recommend less aggressive treatment that would require the person to have more home care because they've been getting surgery or heavy duty chemotherapy or things like that, they will often recommend less arduous and less effective treatment, if they think somebody doesn't have the right support at home not asking people, Do you have friends? Do you have family? Do you have neighbors that can help you? Do you have the resources to hire somebody for a homecare assistant? No, they ask, Well, are you married, are you living with a partner, and if not, the will often get a very different course of treatment. This kills people, it actually kills people. If you are not married, you will have probably have a more difficult time obtaining a mortgage, even if your income is equivalent to what a married couple might make. Because married people are considered to be a better lending risk. And think about how many people who have you known who are married or in cohabiting relationships, where their partner is really not that supportive, their partner might be trashing their credit rating, their partner might be emotionally or verbally or physically abusive to them, their partner might be incapable of offering certain kinds of support that people who are making these decisions presume they will be getting.
Effy
Yeah. And also the couple is not ironclad that one person can leave or they decide to split up. So I think there's the this, going back to what you were saying earlier, that is somehow considered to be a permanent thing, once you're in this couple situation and an escalator, that, you know, it's permanent and forever. And that somehow, you know that that privilege will stay somehow you always pay your debt, you know, which is a make believe situation that is considered as a fact and taking into consideration such a fact that your mortgage rates is a certain way your credit lending a certain way, which I also find quite fascinating.
Amy Gahran
Yeah, yeah. In some ways, it's similar to education privilege, you know, where people assume that just because somebody went to college, that they're smarter, they're more dedicated, that they're more skilled.
Effy
Yeah, yeah, for sure. So given that, we know, we know that the relationship escalator isn't ideal for everyone, though it does work for some people. And if it's working for you, we say this always on on the show, like if it's working for you, and you're thriving, good for you. What can we say to those people who just realize they're an escalator and they they're considering getting off? How can they do that? What is available to them? And also, what can we do overall, both personally and systemically to support people to have relationships that they can thrive? And not necessarily subscribe to this, this heavily promoted prescription from system of monogamy, modern normativity.
Amy Gahran
Okay, I'm going to back up a little bit from that. You talked about people who are on the escalator and are thinking about getting off. I think everybody should think about the relationship escalator, especially the people who really want it, think about why you want it. First of all, how much of that comes from personal desire? And how much of that comes from feeling like if you are not, quote unquote, normal, bad things will happen to you in life? Consider, do you really want a partner? Or are you casting for a role? Do you really want the depth of relationship with another human being? Or do you feel you need to have a specific role? This is seen over and over again, especially in cisgender heterosexual men who get married. Once they get divorced, they often want to jump right back on that escalator. You know why? Because the relationship escalator guess what mostly really supports and subsidizes cisgender heterosexual men, especially white men.
Effy
So like everything else?
Amy Gahran
Yeah, it's okay to follow norms because they are norms, but be conscious of it. So you asked about people who want to diverge from the escalator in some way. It's kind of like diverging from any social norms. For instance, say you are in a heterosexual, married straight couple. And then one of you says, You know what, I really my gender identity shifting. I still love you, I want to be with you. But I need to shift my gender identity or I'm just going to feel like I'm dying here. Even if that does not mean changing the structure of the relationship and now that opposite sex is not a requirement for the relationship escalator. You could still stay on that escalator if you want. And even if the partner who was not shifted their identity still would love and respect and want to be with that person. A lot of times the questions come up will we need to divorce because, you know, I've shifted my identity in this way. It's not necessarily about non monogamy sometimes. Or if somebody wants to make a big change in their lifestyle, like, Yeah, I know, we've had the suburban house for a while, but I really feel like I need to, like, do RV Life for a few years. Okay, there's social stigma against that. So when you separate out what you actually want, versus what the impact of diverging from social stigma would be, then you can deal with the impacts of social stigma and a big way that people can do that. Even if they're just in the inquiry phase, where they're wondering, maybe I might want to do something else is reach out and start making friends and find community in that new way. Or if you are partnered with somebody say you're monogamous and your partner says, I feel like I am polyamorous or I want to learn more about polyamorous maybe this is something I can do rather than recoil about it. And don't just leave it up to the partner who prefers polyamory to do all the work, go out and meet some poly people and make friends. Because something that seems really scary, anything that's stigmatized is going to see some scary if that looks like that stigma is gonna start attaching itself to you directly or indirectly. Stigma is a lot less scary when you start to get to know human beings, as complete human beings who are already dealing with the fact that their identity or choices are stigmatized, whether that is being polyamorous or deciding to go live in an RV or whatever. When you make friends and find community that accelerates social learning, that reframes your mindset of what normal and healthy is or can be, and you start to see options. And the idea, you may distill decide, yeah, not for me, I don't want to do it. But you won't discount it out of hand because of assumptions rooted in social stigmas?
Effy
Absolutely, I mean, that that makes a lot of sense. It also makes me think of, we know that on a on a sort of very big skill and an evolutionary psychology point of view that we do have a sense of belonging as a part of our safety, sense of safety, right? Safety numbers, was really important to us as we were evolving. And I think, as you find community, I think as you diverge from the norm, the thing that kicks in on some level is that that the safety numbers are I am I am leaving the thing that keeps me safe, the big community. And I think once you do find friends and other community, then you can then it appears that feed, you can get sued that fear to say, Oh, actually, here's some other people as another community that I can belong. I think once that safety suit, that fear is sued, then you can go back to making some some healthy decisions again, you know, I think that that plays a role as well. Yeah, I
Amy Gahran
mean, when you think back over the history of social acceptance of same sex relationships, what really turned the tide on that? Yeah, there were a lot of protests. Yes, there was advocacy at in state legislatures what really turned the tide on this is more people decided to be out about being gay. So more people knew somebody who was gay. And it's really hard to say, Oh, guess what, you're not allowed to get married, if you actually know these people, if they're part of your life, in your society, in your social circles?
Effy
Sure.
Jacqueline
So I have a question about escalators within non monogamy. So I am in poly Fidelis relationship, and have even though I'm in polyamorous, I have still absorbed all of that escalator expectation for monogamy. And I'm married to one of my partners not married certainly to the other because that's not legal. But there have been conversations in my other partnership around well, then what next? And an expectation of if we can't get married, then what? And what does that look like? And so those dialogues have been happening, so I get it from that side. But then from the other side from the polyamorous community, I have received what has also felt like an escalator of, we start off by opening up our relationship and having hierarchy. But then the next stage of that is non hierarchy. And then the next stage of that is relationship anarchy, and that I'm supposed to be moving down that track. So on the one hand, I'm supposed to figure out some way of living together and getting married and doing all those stuff with multiple people. But on the other hand, I'm supposed to not have hierarchy with anyone at all really have relationship anarchy and not have labels. And so I feel stuck in the middle sometimes with this messaging.
Amy Gahran
So the relationship escalator is fundamentally about two things, relationship characteristics, and presumptions about trajectory. When people say, Where's this relationship going? Okay, they're talking about some kind of trajectory. It may or may not be the traditional relationship escalator. But when you start thinking about what's next, where's it Knowing that means that some aspect of this relationship is not meeting where you already are, at some level that you've decided maybe I'm really at the point in life where I want to live with a partner, or I want to live alone, where I want to have a kid or I'm really sure now that I don't want to have kids, or that I really want an exclusive, sexually a romantic ly exclusive relationship, or, yeah, that exclusivity just isn't working for me. Okay? When you've gotten to the point that it's not just about casual inquiry, but you've really recognize that something in you has already shifted. Then if your relationships do not shift to meet that you're going to be increasingly dissatisfied with those relationships. It is possible to allow relationships to change, ideally, with negotiation through through the people involved in it, all of the people involved in it, not just some people making decisions for other people. And a lot of people are doing that. And sometimes those decisions end up reflecting the steps of the traditional relationship escalator. And sometimes they don't, and hollyland. When people talk about the poly escalator, they talk about basically the relationship escalator just with more people, people start at the entry level where they have less rights and less opportunity. And then gradually, they build sweat equity in the relationship, and that allows them to basically buy in to all the aspects of merging. With the relationship escalator, usually on the poly escalator, it's about how do we merge more. So this is why solo polyamory is a twofer for freaking people out. Because it presumes that yeah, I just don't want that merging, it doesn't work for me. And then the egalitarian polyamory, which is the flip side of hierarchical polyamory is a lot of people get really confused about this. And this is escalator thinking, well, there has to be hierarchy. And if it doesn't, there has to be rank. And if there is no hierarchy, that means every all relationships have to be absolutely identical, that everybody has to be on the mortgage, or you spend 3.33, you know, days per month or weeks per month or years, you know, equally identically allotting time, resources or rank, which some people do actually takes a hell of a lot of logistical ability. But some people do that. But in fact, what egalitarian polyamory is, is when partners in a relationship are on equal footing with their partners in that relationship, and their voices and choices about that relationship cannot be overridden by anybody who is not in that relationship. The relationships still usually do look very, very different from each other in a polyamorous network. But it just means that they're, they've decided, they're all just people figuring this stuff out. And they are not going to prioritize a certain person or relationship first by default. And they do decide if their patterns of behavior actually indicate that they are doing that kind of default prioritization. The ethical thing to do is to speak up about that it's like, yeah, you know, what, I looked at my behavior. And guess what, I am practicing hierarchy, because when you don't do that, you get this thing called sneaky. archy. Yeah, and it's up on anyone. And a lot of times the poly escalator features, sneaky archy, we want, I want all my partners to be equal, freely, you know, less like animal farms, some partners are more equal than others. And I'm going to prioritize them differently. But I'm still going to say no, I absolutely am just as committed to this relationship as another relationship, and you'll matter just as much as the partner that I happen to live with, except that I keep making decisions and behaviors that diminish and deprioritize. You. So you're lucky it's horrible, because a can sneak up on anybody. People who really, ethically by their values want to practice the egalitarian polyamory they find out, they just, you know, aren't doing it or can't do it. And that's, that's really distressing if you realize that you are not capable or willing to live up to your own values. That's that's a big point of stress.
Jacqueline
Yeah. And I think what you're saying is the important part is the people who are in that relationship or making those decisions. I think that the distinction that you've made about hierarchy has been one of the clear distinctions I think that I've ever heard about it, which is, hierarchy is when someone outside of that relationship has control, and some say in what's happening in this other relationship that they are not a part of. And I know you've talked about whether or not that is that is ethical, but I think that that's a good way for everyone who is trying to practice non hierarchical relationships to think to themselves, do my other partners. Do my parents, does somebody else actually have more of a say in this relationship that they're not a part of than I think that they should?
Amy Gahran
Hierarchy is a power dynamic?
Effy
Yes. And exactly. And I want to bounce off that and say, I think it's not even for those who practicing non hierarchical relationships or polyamory, I think it makes sense for all of us to look at our relationships and acknowledge the power dynamics within and see if we're choosing them. They're serving us. And if you want to carry on, and if the answer is no, how do you make adjustments. So there's so much that and I think, I imagine that people who are listening, I'm definitely gonna be one of those people. Go back and listen again. And again, to really get into the nuance of what you're talking about, and how much these ideas are so woven into our society, our culture, our way of living, the way that we connect and love one another, and in almost an insidious way. So we think all that you've shared for us is a really good guide to take a step back and look at our relationships, our interactions, the way that we connect the way that we form relationships and connections and really think about is it conscious, choosing the these relationships are we choosing the way that the relationships are, and to continue to review them, and make sure that we are actually choosing it now. And now, and again, now, rather than we chose it once, and it's kind of we're kind of in the flow of it, and we're not really checking in anymore. And I think that's, that will also be a really healthy way to make sure that you're thriving in relationships as well.
Amy Gahran
Yeah, and resilience, because, you know, if people get into relationships, saying this will save me, and this relationship should never change, because my life depends on it. You're not being very resilient, individual resilience, it allows for better sharing, and that allows room for change and growth.
Effy
Yeah. Beautiful. Amy, you have given us a lot to think about in terms of relationship escalator, and single them and solo polyamory and all precious, precious wisdom. We do want to learn a little bit about you if that's okay.
Jacqueline
Okay, so we have four questions that we would love to ask. The first of which is, what is one piece of advice that you would give to your younger self about love sex or relationships?
Amy Gahran
Oh my god, that new relationship energy is not your friend, or at least it hasn't been my friend that it's an intoxicant, and it gets a lot of social supports, just like there's a lot of social support for drinking and like all intoxicants, it can be fun and it warrants moderation do not make major decisions or including your own decision to have about how committed you are to something under its influence. Give yourself and anybody else that you are involved in that anarchy swirl all the pink fluffy stupids, you know, time for it to settle down and look at patterns of behavior keep your feet under you don't make major life changing decisions. Until you've had a good year or more to see the patterns of behavior emerge, how you eat really role what kind of people you eat really are and then have the relationship based on that. I went to through several relationships that usually monogamous were because I felt so in love with somebody, I figured, well, I had to find a way to make it work. And I did myself a lot of damage in the process.
Effy
Absolutely. Good advice. And sorry, is an intoxicant check. What is one romantic or sexual adventure on your bucket list?
Amy Gahran
Done most of the romantic and sexual ones. And I've purchased my own house as a self employed, longtime self employed solo person in a crazy housing market. So those are all like bugging, listening. I'm a boring person. But for future bucket lists, I mean, the next things are finishing two more books. So, yeah...
Jacqueline
The next one is self evident, potentially, but how do you challenge the status quo?
Amy Gahran
By not keeping my mouth shut? That is getting increasingly hard to do in such a polarized society, a lot of people are just defensively keeping their head down and keeping their mouths shut. And I try to remember that people have very different perspectives, and they come by them for different reasons, and they're complete human beings, they are not this, the whole of who they are, it cannot be compressed to their one opinion on one matter, but, you know, some things really matter to me. And I they are a matter of values, and they're a matter of what I think make good relationships and good society. And I speak up about them. And I just realized that and then like, people come up later and said that because I, you know, I feel the same way, but it's like, speak up, you know, because the first step toward tyranny is silence and self-censorship.
Effy
Sure. Beautiful. Okay, so we are a curious bunch over here at Curious Fox and we are curious about what you're curious about lately.
Amy Gahran
I can't wait to go and see the images that came off of the James Webb telescope. today. We are as we're recording this, they're going to be releasing a lot of the first infrared photos that are just galaxies and galaxies. Basically, going back to the almost the beginning of the universe. I'm such a geek. And I just can't wait to see what we learned. Science is amazing. At science, I don't know who did this quote. But I love it. It really resonates. It's science is the practice of separating the probable from the possible.
Jacqueline
That's incredible. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for your time and your energy and this conversation.
Amy Gahran
Now. Thank you. I mean, I know we're all over the place. And everybody when they talk about polyamory they're expecting oh, let's talk about sex and jealousy and all that. It's like, here I am spouting social theory. But it's the stuff that actually matters. And it shapes people's psychology and their emotions to a level that they often don't realize. And it's like, if you just sit, sit there and say, What is this environment that I'm existing in? And how has that shaped me just that one inquiry can change your whole life?
Effy
Here here.
Jacqueline
If you want to learn more about Amy Gahran, read her articles and get a copy of her book, visit off escalator.com and join our newsletter so that you can be the first to hear about when her new books are released. Stepping off the escalator, the second edition, which includes the latest research on relationships, and monogamy the fine print if you enjoy this episode, have questions or have strategies to share. If you want to connect with other foxy listeners, then head to our Facebook group. At we are curious foxes, you can become a patreon member, you can get early release of episodes many episodes content that we could not fit on the show and so much more. Visit our website for blog posts, reading lists, past episodes and more at we're curious foxes.com And then finally, let us know that you're listening, share a comment a story or question or email us a voice memo at listening and we are curious boxes.com where you can record a question for the show by calling us at 646-450-9079.
Effy
This episode is produced and edited by Nina Pollack, with whom we have the perfect non escalator relationship. Our intro music is composed by Deb Sahar we are so grateful for their work and we're grateful to you for listening as always Stay curious friends
Amy Gahran
Will not check the turn this off. Sorry about that.
Jacqueline
Hi good morning, Nina. Maybe since maybe it's not morning for me. Good evening. When everything in society points us towards and judges. I don't know why judges judges us canceling a case because
Effy
it's like it's just this is just
Jacqueline
avoiding it or stepping up to New York. There's like therapy happening inside the house New York traffic.
Effy
Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic. With solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious, curious curious. Stay curious.
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