Ep 126: Rest & Reason and Flirt & F*ck

Art by @martina.francone

Are there different modes to the same relationships? Can feeling safe, settled and comfy get in the way of passion and the erotic? How do we know what type of connection is available in any given relationship?

In this episode, Effy and Jacqueline are exploring a relationship theory that encourages people to consider different states the same relationship. Rest and reason, flirt and fuck and disconnection. Inspired by Polyvagal Theory, they look into how we can recognize what state the relationship is supporting and how to shift if we want to.

To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla 
on Instagram.

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TRANSCRIPT:

Effy

Welcome to the Curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.

Jacqueline

And I'm Jacqueline Misla. You've heard of rest and digest, fight, flight and freeze. But today, we're introducing you to rest and reason, flirt and fuck, and disconnect. Inspired by polyvagal theory, we're exploring how different states of being impact different qualities of connection within a relationship. We're back from hiatus.

Effy

August was our season of rest and digest, if you will. And we're back to start back with something that has been stewing on my mind for a while now. This topic sits at the intersection between two of my favorite things, the inner workings of our neurology, psychology and physiology, and the way we connect and form relationships.

Jacqueline

We have behind the scenes been talking about this idea for a while you've introduced a little bits of it in conversation, and then they continue to expand and expand. And it's interesting because when when I was growing up, I learned certainly about fight or flight but really was related to animals or in threatening situations, right? So someone is pointing a gun at you and is going to mug you. Are you going to fight? Or are you going to flee? Or certainly watching animals run through the Sahara? What are they doing? Are they fighting? Are they fighting? Are they freezing? So that was the context there? And then rest and digest? Honestly, I didn't learn until I was probably in my 20s. I was seeing the gastroenterologist and they were telling me that that is the state that apparently I was supposed to be in, and my body wasn't. Which is why I was having lots of stomach issues, because I apparently was not digesting. So there was like limited context. But now I feel like that is all I'm hearing. All I'm hearing is about fight flight and freeze, but not necessarily what that means in a threatening situation. But what does that mean, in our lives and our day to days and our relationships? We're constantly talking about being in that survival mode. But outside of times of threat?

Effy

Yes, yeah, I think a lot of this conversation is had mostly around trauma, right? Because that's when these things become kind of irrelevant. trauma happens when we're actually actually according to polyvagal theory theory, which we will go into in a second a little bit just to, you know, get people caught up. trauma happens during free state, rather than fight or flight, you can fight or flight situation, trauma is less likely to imprint on you. It really imprints on you when you get stuck at freeze when you can't fight or flight. So your body kind of just shuts down as a way of preservation. And that's when trauma occurs. And then that's going to get imprinted. And that's things like PTSD comes from that place. Any kind of trauma related disease comes from that place. Anything that you deal with when you say, Oh, that was trauma like that had a root in trauma is when your body ended up in the Free State. And that it wasn't they couldn't get out of it. It couldn't get out of the situation. And that's when trauma occurs. That's interesting. Yeah,

Jacqueline

I think to your point around trauma is important because I think that is exactly why I've been hearing a lot about it. I think that nowadays folks, particularly millennials, are really working to unwind, undo address, lots of trauma, big T and small t trauma that that's happened. And as a result of that are having more and more conversations about fight and flight and how that shows up in our day to day in our relationships in our work. And so I do think it's that I think I think we're trying to now learn some lessons and do things differently.

Effy

Yeah, I think trauma informed is now a category or trauma informed therapy, trauma informed recruitment will make informed organizations right or kill them for kids do exactly a trauma informed curriculum. Right. So I think that is becoming a definitely a big part of our Zeitgeist that we are aware that trauma is a thing that it has impact on people which then affects their body. yours, your cognition, their nervous system and all these all those weird and wonderful things that make us human, the mechanics of the mechanics of humanity,

Jacqueline

and realizing that we need to be in rest and digest more. I think that's why we took this month off, we need to rest, I think I have come to some realizations, I'm sure we'll make some time for it and other episodes of how I need to just incorporate more rest and digest in my every day. And not just to bring our seasons of hiatus. But all of those things have been such a topic of conversation, I think in in the circles that I'm in and on social media around rest and digest flight, fight, freeze, but you have a different spin on it that you want to talk about today.

Effy

I do I do. So let's just do a little two sentences on the polyvagal theory, because we mentioned that just give people a recap. For those who people who are familiar with it great, just sort of remind you, those you've never heard of it, this will just give you the very, very sort of top line description. And you know, I encourage you to read up on it. And we in fact, are probably going to do an episode on pretty soon. But the polyvagal theory essentially says that our nervous system has three states, that color behavior as a reaction to our environment. And whatever we're experiencing, right and through imagine that three states of being, and that's not necessarily about who we are in our personality, though, it's reflected in that this is really about our nervous system, the state that our nervous system gets into depending on what we're experiencing, right. So it's not an identity thing. It's very much a neural, neurological, physiological thing that then colors, our behavior and our personalities, which shows up differently that so we show up differently, depending on what state that we're in, right. So the idea of these three states or you have the rest and digest, also known as ventral vagal, that's when we feel safe and calm. And we think that everything is going to be okay, I've heard somebody call it stay in play, I love that as well. I love that as much as rest and digest, right. So you have that, that is when everything is great. Then we have the sympathetic state or hyper arousal, that's what we would call fight or flight, right? That is when we are reacting to a stressful situation, we actually react into it either by fighting it, right? Or getting away from it. You know, like you said, like you said, Jackie, it could be the very, very physical, literal description of that, right, you could literally like getting your fists separated the fight, or you know, like, literally running away, or fight mode also looks like being judgmental, being hyper, I'm controlling. So there are there are more subtle behavioral expressions of fight. And also flight that can also when you mentally checkout, right, when you distract yourself, those are also flight responses as well. So that was your fight and flight. But in those situations, and fight and flight, you are actually dealing with a stressful situation, right? It's not pleasant, you're not loving it, but you are able to deal with it through these strategies. If for some reason you cannot, right, you can't fight or you can't get away from the situation, then our nervous system goes and goes into freeze mode, right, or dorsal vagal, or what they call hypo arousal, meaning you are freezing, you're stuck, you could literally be like frozen in place, you shut down. And it is your your nervous systems way of dealing with whatever's coming. It's like your pain tolerance goes up, your sensitivity goes down, you're kind of in like shutdown standby mode, so that you're not as affected by whatever's happening happening outside of you, right. And then the The important thing to to understand this is that you can't really be in two of those states at the same time. The best way to imagine them is almost like a set of stairs, right? So you got you can go up and down the stairs at the top of the stairs, you got rest and digest, right, you're having fun, everything feels good, right? You can come down the stairs if things get stressful and go into fight or flight mode, right. And then if things go really you can't get out of that situation, go down the stairs, again, to dorsal vagal to your freeze mode, and you can go up and down the stairs, what you can't do is kind of jump from one to the other. And you can't be in two states at the same time. So you have to manage the emotional agility and have tools and skills and strategies in place so that you can go up and down those stairs, you know, you can tell where you are on the stairs, and how you can go, how you go up and down those stairs. Right? Does that make sense? So my theory, kind of is inspired by this idea. And it's really to do with the time that I spend with my clients talking about their relationships. And what I'm noticing more and more that there are three states two relationships also, regardless of whether they're monogamous or non monogamous, right. So this is just about looking at a relationship between two people. It is not really addressing whether that relationship is a monogamous relationship or a non monogamous relationship, right. And what I'm noticing is there are really three states of relationships as well, and one I'm calling rest and reason. And we're gonna go through those in detail. So you got rest and reason, then you have flirt and fuck, and then you have disconnect. And I think it is important, just like we say, and for the polyvagal theory, it is these three separate states that color, your behavior and your experience, I think these three different states within the relationship, also color, your experience and your and your behavior within those states as well. And we're going to get into that, I think is, it's similar to the polyvagal theory, you can't really be in two of those states, at the same time, you can really be in one, and you can travel to the other one. And then you go back to the other one. And there's really just about, again, the agility between moving between those states the awareness of what state you're in what state you want to be in. And if you have a path to the state that you prefer to be in, does that make sense?

Jacqueline

Yeah, and before we kind of dig in, we're going to spend less time talking about the disconnect stage, just because we're talking this episode about connection is actually the stage where you do not you feel disconnected. So we're gonna spend more time talking about rest and reason and PHLEARN fuck, but it is important to note that if you are in disconnect mode, then frankly, you're going to feel that you're not going to feel either safe or aroused. And so that's just something to be paying attention to, as we're talking through this thinking about, where are you in your relationship state over all, or particularly on any given day, because you're not stuck in one of these stages for the length of your relationship? You can kind of move up and down those steps, as you said,

Effy

right, right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. So all right, let's, let's dig in. And let's give some examples. So let's start with rest and reason. What does that mean? So rest and reason is when we feel safe, right? So we're when we're able to rest, when we can truly rest with the presence of our partner, the person that we're talking about, right? So that's when we can sit on the couch, not worry about anything, that it feels comfortable, it feels safe, secure, that it feels predictable, that there's nothing in that that is browsing us into fear or interaction, right? That's when we feel safety consistency, if we're living with somebody that we're sort of enjoying our domestic environment, maybe we're nesting, right, we're in that mode. That's kind of where we think of like an anchor in the relationships. That's kind of arrest, right?

Jacqueline

Yes, yeah. For me, I picture this as like, the sweatpants stage. Right? This is where now I'm physically going to get comfortable putting on sweat pants, there's talk now about whether passing gas is now appropriate to each other, right? Like is that are we that level of comfortable, it is deciding that you're just gonna like chill on the couch sitting next to each other each on social media, but still feeling connected, because you're doing that together. And it's not the same as like longingly looking into each other's eyes and throwing each other against the wall. But you're so happy to be together in that space, going to bed early, putting on your acne medicine before bed. It's like that's what I like rest is like the settling into of a relationship and kind of being more of who you are being more comfortable in that space. Yes,

Effy

exactly. Exactly. Beautiful, comfortable, consistent state. Reason also sort of sits along with rest, so is resting reason and reasoning piece is really about understanding life together, making some reasonable choices, processing and digesting life together, it's kind of working things out right reasoning is compromising, it's problem solving, it's collaborating, it's learning growing, it's that kind of intellectual, emotional flow that you can be with somebody. Right? So that's kind of the state that we're talking

Jacqueline

about. Yeah. Right now, my wife and I are heavy in this state. We are we are working on wills. Right now. We're talking about taxes.

Effy

We're looking about rest and

Jacqueline

reason. Exactly the mortgage payments, like literally all of the very adulting responsible things and like the compromises that need to be made and, and all of that kind of stuff. And so it is deciding to have a life together and then having dialogue to your point and compromise and discussion and growth together. Sure. In this stage as you grow into adulting together.

Effy

Yes, yes, exactly. And just to mention, this doesn't necessarily also always mean like a long term relationship, right? You can be in arresting reason. In a one night stand. Totally. You can write you can you can like have, which we're going to talk about in a minute you can have like crazy wild sex and then in this sort of postcode is chill. You can kind of chill together feel safe and calm, and you know, chat and you know, be reasonable towards each other and then like, just go your own ways, right? So this is not just describing long term settled relationships. So that's why it's almost I think it's more conceptual than like the tasks, right? It's a state of being unrest in reason. So I would really encourage people who are listening to like, think about that as a state and think about themselves. How do they feel? What does it look like when they imagine themselves in less than reason? And how that can translate into a long term relationship? Or a one night stand? Or a short fling? or multiple different relationships? Right? So think about is more of a state of being, which then translates into a behavior within a relationship? Yes, depending on the relationship?

Jacqueline

Yes. Because in that in that description, then it means in a relationship, do you feel comfortable being who you are? Do you feel comfortable with the other person showing who they are? Do you feel comfortable having difficult conversation or dialogue? And now navigating through that? Do you feel comfortable? Do you trust them and trust their opinion enough to really truly collaborate with them and allow their opinion to be incorporated into decision making, so to your point, that can happen at any stage or relationship, but it's about trust and comfort level and feeling settled enough to really dig into something and grow either again, in that moment with the person or over a long period of time?

Effy

Right? So that is what resting reason is you're calm, you're cozy, you're comfortable. You are from a regulated mind, you're sort of what dialectical behavior therapy calls your wise mind. Your chill that's your rest in Reason No, that's one side think of this as a as a switch right? Your your switch things the other way. And now you have flirt and fuck right and the clues in the title way that's pretty much on the nose right? So this is flooded fuck mode. And flirt in fight mode is they're slightly different from one another right? This is why certain fuck so like flirt, think about is more arousal, sensuality, playfulness, beginning feelings of love and emotional connection. It is flirting to get to know somebody in a very particular way is really steps towards arousal. Mm hmm. I love that. Right.

Jacqueline

flirty. Relationship energy see that I love and want to last forever and ever. Yes, yes.

Effy

Yes, it doesn't. But it is nice. And then you have, right again, the clues in the title. But it is when you're having sex. It's about lust, about passion. It's about spontaneity. It's a physical connection is carnal. Right, it is when you are aroused and sexually connected with the other person.

Jacqueline

Yes. Also like that stage? Yeah, yeah, I'm happy with that. I mean, happy with all of the stages absolutely want rest and reasons certainly. And you know, some flirting fun. Isn't that better?

Effy

We want. Exactly. So these, these are states that you if it's important to you, if if you're like I love that certain Fox state, you can find your way there, right. And you need to find your way that we need to be aware of what state that we're in. Right. And we're going to talk a little bit about that. The important thing to note here is that by design, by definition, rest and reason, uncertain, can't really coexist, right at the same time. Because flirting, that playfulness, that arousal, that excitement needs a little bit of the unknown, right, which is the opposite of consistency and predictability it needs is arousal with the opposite of like rest and safety and chillness. Right. So that's why he needs to understand we need to understand that these are kind of the opposite places for each other. And it's important to realize that we need to like the state of the relationship, the state of the quality of the relationship needs to shift for us to then feel flirty and aroused and sexual.

Jacqueline

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. Wait, pause a few different things. First, it does I want to go back to what you were saying it doesn't mean that a relationship is doomed to be in a certain space like if you're in flow and fuck mode that is all that relationship is or if you're unrest unreasonable that is all that relationships because to your point, maybe during the week, it's very rested reason then on the weekend and here comes down, you know, like the party party lights turned off on exactly and we're in so one relationship or Series A, you know, a set of relationships can navigate through each of these phases. To your point, it just can't be at the same time. We're not necessarily negotiating and talking about our will and flirting at the same time. I mean, maybe that's somebody's kink and and you know, your kink is not my thing, but your kink is okay. But in most cases, those things are going to happen separately, and also want to note that it does doesn't mean that people are only having sex when in flirt and fuck mode. Because I've had plenty of rest and reasoning sex, like I've had sex that feels comfortable, that feels predictable some guys I've had, where it's like, I'm still it's still feels good. You're still getting off, you still feel connected, but it's not that passion. It's not like, devouring each other.

Effy

Yeah, that totally makes sense, right? That's why it's called for in fact, not Fullerton coffee sexy times. Right. So it's not really about the actual sexual act, which can be this like comfy cozy act that you just described. The floor and fuck, sex has a different quality, right? And we all kind of have an idea about that. Right? So it's really less about the act of sex, but more about the state in which we're having sex. Right? And you might find that if you're craving sex that comes from the first and fuck mode. If you're having a ton of rest and reason sex, you might not feel satisfied because what you're seeking what you're what you're yearning for is the flirting. State sex.

Jacqueline

Yes. Yeah. When we were talking about this before, an analogy that you gave or an example that you gave them made a lot of sense is masturbating right before bed so you can get to sleep. Versus you're so turned on that you just like have to like I have to do it. Right. Like like some happened during the day, there was a date something and you like watching something and your body's just as like, you need to be touched in this moment, right? There's a difference between those two things. Either way, you're answering the either way you're getting off. But one is like comfy cozy gives you some warm vibes before you sleep and the other fields, like an insatiable craving that you just need to be touched exam. Those are the differences. And both have their place. And both are lovely.

Effy

Yes. Besides restaurant reason, and foreign fact, the third state is disconnect. Right. And that's when none of the above is happening. And those are people who are kind of they in a relationship where the disconnection has eroded to almost nothing, and they kind of exist in the relationship, but aren't really connected, right? They're maybe at the end of relationship, or they're kind of staying without really pleasing they've checked out of the relationship. And that's when you can't be unrest and reason together, and you can't really flirt and fuck up, you still remaining in the relationship. And the third state is this like, disconnect? Right? And that's your way of just being in that relationship?

Jacqueline

Yeah, yeah. So you neither feel comfortable? Or do you nor do you feel aroused? You neither feel attracted to the person in a wild way? Nor do you feel like there's trust there in order to build a life together?

Effy

Right? Right. Exactly, exactly.

Jacqueline

So given those three states rest and reason, flirt and fuck and disconnect, I do not want to be in disconnect. So let's pretend that was to the side. I imagine many of us do not want to be in that stage in any of our relationships. But I do want to be in rest in reason. And important book, a motto of mine is and not or do not want to have to choose between them. And so if we want to have both, what could that look like? Because, you know, let me let me say, there have been times when I'm in my rest and reasoning mode in a relationship, where we get glimmers of that new relationship, energy flirt and fuck particularly, let's say like vacations, vacation sex. Then at home sex, like I'm not surrounded by my visual to do list of all the things right? And I can like, just be in the moment and be there. And so there's like these moments of like, oh, yeah, I remember what that was like. But I want more.

Effy

Sure. So I think longer term relationships, we tend to gravitate towards rest and reason over time. And flirt and fuck is something that we kind of have to work towards, or I guess work on, because your term relationships is really about more kind of doing life together. Right? Unless we work on it, the floor and fuck diminishes over time and it needs to be nurtured. And uh, you need to consciously step into that state, if it's not happening for you naturally. Right. And I think really a balanced relationship does require both both states unless, unless people have decided that that particular relationship is about one state, which is also okay, you and your partner decide this relationship is really about rest and reason. This is our safe home. Just the phone calls it safe haven secure base, right and this is the relationship where we do life together where we support each other where we negotiate and problem solve together and collaborate right that's what That relationship is about, and neither of the parties are interested in shifting the relationship into float mode.

Jacqueline

Right? Yes. Yeah. So if you're in an open relationship, yeah, you can have that dynamic, exactly what you're describing, if you're an open relationship, you can decide this relationship is going to meet this need, or this other relationship or series of relationships aren't need this or these other needs. Right? Just make sure everyone's on the same page.

Effy

Eggs, I think that that is the most important point. Those are in the relationship, in that state of that relationship. Agree? That's what they want to be. Right?

Jacqueline

Yeah, I think that's something that I see out in the in the non monogamous world that they say particularly if a relationship starts with a couple who opens up, and it didn't, they're opening up because they want some more of that flirt and fuck energy in their lives. And so they go out into the world to find folks to flirt and fuck with. But those folks may be wanting a more in depth, emotional connection, or rest and reason type of relationship. And they it may start for them with flirting, fuck as many relationships do, but they want it to evolve to something else. But you don't have intention of it evolving there, because you already have that. So let's have those conversations people. Let's be very clear. And we'll talk a little bit about self auditing and communication around that. But let me just note that here, let's talk about it. Let's telling people, what is we looking for?

Effy

Exactly? And how much time you want to spend in those states? Right? Do you want this relationship to be mostly about in the flirting folks stayed with the occasional Rest, rest and digest? Where you can get pizza after a, you know, hot and heavy session, right? And talk about state of the world where you spending? So you spend little time investing? Reason new spending most of your time in Florida, right? Or is it the other way around that you want to do? Where are you spending most your time and rest and reason with the occasional, you know, special occasions, or in frog sessions, where you're like stepping into that into that state? Consciously? And then, you know, letting it go? Because it's not where you want to spend your time?

Jacqueline

Yeah, yeah. So let's say let's go into self audit right now. Because I do think that that's the way in which we're going to be able to figure out where we are. And so if you are reflecting on yourself, first reflecting on, what do you need and want? What do you have that feels great? And you want to keep going? What do you feel like you are missing? And you want some more of that? And kind of? Are you getting that from your relationship? If you're in multiple relationships? Are you getting those things from those relationships? What are you getting from where I think that evaluation is really important, because that's the first step before you have a conversation with anybody else about what it is that you want is for yourself, to figure out what is it that you want, and then what's getting in the way of that thing. You know, when we talk about rest and reason, and actually the benefit of rest and reason of flirting, fuck, I think actually about kink. And so there is a spontaneity, and a anonymity that comes with exploring a new kink. And telling somebody who you don't have to actually sit at the breakfast table with or to or drop off your kids to school with whatever that you want to do this particular thing that you wouldn't actually tell somebody who you have that kind of rapport with. So there's something about exploring new things about yourself with someone who you are not in rest in reason with. And there's something also to be said, though, about being in a relationship where you feel so safe and comfortable with each other, that you are willing to explore those things. And so I think about for myself exploring some of my desires, and why is it that some things I would want to explore with somebody brand new, maybe I feel embarrassed about it? You know, some of what I've heard of people say is that in the beginning of our relationship, I could have done that. But no, I respect you way too much now to do that thing, that actually, as the relationship progresses, you become less and less comfortable exploring that part of your bug side. And, you know, is there a way as we're talking about trying to get it all? If I am in a relationship where I want all of it? Is there a way that I can lean into the fact that we're really comfortable and trust each other to try to explore the like sluttier Wilder, darker King gear side of some of the things that I wanted in my sex life? Sure.

Effy

I would be curious if you are truly interested in Reason state, to such an extent that it is getting in the way of exploration and kinkiness. And, and sort of the darker things, right. I would wonder if you actually don't feel safe, that you're not invest in reason that you might actually be in disconnect in some way. Because if you truly felt safe, you could explore those things. Because you'd feel safe that your partner would not see you in different way. Right. I think sometimes we feel safe, right? Or we imagine that we're safe, but that safety feels so precarious, that we don't want to be fully seen because we think that if we're fully seen the relationship won't stand. So technically, that's not really safe safe. That is an illusion of safety. So if that's where you are, my question to you would be, are you truly invested in Reason? Or are you in some version of disconnect? Right, in that there's no illusion of safety? Because that if that safety is so precarious, you know, that you don't feel comfortable exploring some kink, or you don't feel comfortable fully seen, then I would wonder if you're truly invest in reason. That makes sense to me.

Jacqueline

So two things I'm thinking one is, yes, I do think that being able to feel safe enough to be fully seen, is important. And so having that foundation can be important to exploring something. And I think for me, in particular, they're some of the things that I that really turned me on, are the things that are naughty, essentially, no, we shouldn't be doing this. And you know, we shouldn't do this here and not you and you know, and some of that, like the danger aspect of it. And when you're home with your longtime partner, after watching a movie on Netflix, there's nothing that is dangerous about that. There's nothing that's naughty about that. And so what I ended up doing is kind of creating narratives in my head, where I'm like, oh, no, this is Barrett summer camp, and like, we're gonna come up to my bunk, like, what are you doing? Right? Like, lay these stories out in my mind, to get me to the to I, I mean, physically, I'm there and present and connecting and enjoying, but there's there in order to create that I feel safe. But that just doesn't exist in that particular relationship that like newness, and that so I'm trying to manifest that. And in my mind, I think that's kind of what I'm talking about are what are some of the things that we can? What can I do to to make that switch? When Yes, when the thing that is the switch on the other end? is new, but my partner is not?

Effy

Yes, yes. So again, like the polyvagal, here, this is really kind of nuanced, right? It's you feel safe enough to actually the idea is that invest in reason that you feel safe enough, in terms of the structure of the relationship, right, not safe in that, oh, we're not doing something we're doing something naughty, together, right? You can feel safe within the relationship while doing something naughty, together. It's not that you're feel safe, that you're not going to get caught by the knees, you feel safe, as in this relationship is a safe place for me to be seen and heard, and I'm not going to be abandoned, I'm not going to be rejected, I'm not going to be discarded, I'm not going to be lied to right, I'm going to be taken care of, since the safety piece isn't necessarily safe meaning like, like you said, you're not gonna get caught safety. That's not That's not what we're really talking about. It is more like that you feel safe within yourself as in terms of sense of self, and sense of safety. Right? So I do think that you kind of when you're truly invested in reason, right? When you feel that you can rest and that you are fully you aren't you feel safe being fully seen and heard and, and you can feel vulnerable, and you can expose yourself, like the polyvagal theory steps, you can then go up to Sturtz into flirt and fuck, and now you can come up with your fantasies of being naughty or actually go out there and be naughty and don't hurt anyone. Right? I think if you I think those people who stay in and rest and reason for long periods of time and don't go off the floor and fuck, I think they actually may not feel safe, like they don't feel safe. You need to feel safe to be able to leave that rest and reason to go into flirting fuck and then knowing that you will come back to that right? I think the fear is that you go from wrestling reason to flirt and then go up to disconnect. Right? Rather than ideally what you want to do is we want to go rest and reason flirt and fuck rest and reason, Preston reason for a reason. But I think the fear is you kind of either in so you have sort of disconnect on either side of these things, right? That you use you cling on to an illusion of rest and reason. Because ultimately you don't you probably feel disconnected on some level. So you can't leave this illusion of rest and reason to go into a truly flat and fuck mode. Knowing that you will, you will find your way back to rest and reason.

Jacqueline

Yeah, so let me let me think about that. I do think that I have been in situations I've been in phases or moments or with within somebody that I'm in rest and reason it feels comfortable, it feels predictable, but it feels good, it feels safe. But at some point I think that if my flirt and fuck needs are not being met, I could move to disconnect or I could feel like the needs of my my my sexual needs, my body needs and my body aren't being met in that relationship and that can create that resentment or, or fear or whatever those things. And then actually I'm no longer than impressed and reason because I'm not feeling safe and I moved to this connect. Right. I've also then been in flirt and bug where it's like exciting and fun. But then maybe I don't feel like they could see me I have to like suck in my stomach. I've talked about that right or like accentuate my curves. And because I'm trying to leave, I don't know if I feel comfortable sharing my full body, and its full state with them. And so in that moment, then I actually then also start to disconnect and guiding more attention to the lines of my body that I am being present in that moment. And so you're right, it's super precarious. You can like be in the state. And if you don't have enough of the other, if you don't want if I don't have enough safety and security, and flirt and fuck, then I can move to disconnect if I don't have enough flirt and fucking kind of some of that arousal energy in my restaurant reason I can do this connect.

Effy

Right. Exactly, exactly. So in an ideal if when you get this like ninja level, and you and we'll talk about the self audit and and transition, like how we do this, in the ninja level for this, what you're doing is you are you have the agility, the mental and the emotional agility, to rest and reason to flirt and fucking bet back to rest and reason. So in, for example, you're in Florida, fuck, but you realize that you're actually kind of thinking about your body, and you're sort of your body conscious, and you find yourself disconnecting, right? Can you instead of going to disconnect? Can you go back into rest and reason and say, Hey, can we stop and go into the reason mode and say, Can I just tell you what's going on with me? Can we pause, stop rest? Feel safe? Can we just talk about uh, can I tell you what's going on with me like I'm in my head, all I can think about is when my body looks. And now you're in rest and reason, right? Hopefully, you can get a resolution of whatever you need. Your partner's probably saying, honey, you're hot, or whatever it is that you need, maybe just need to be heard. And then once that happens, hopefully you can like gather yourself back up and then move towards flirt and fuck again. Right? So the the ninja level for this is to be able to shift between those two modes without stumbling into disconnection.

Jacqueline

Um, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, I think I see this too, with folks who, let's say maybe are in rest and reason, you know, or long term partnership and want some of the third fuck and expect that that's just going to happen spontaneously. Right? I've been in that situation where it's like, no, no, we shouldn't plan that we're gonna have sex on Friday. Like, it should just happen when it happens. And I see in what you're saying is that is not then having the dialogue around what the needs are creating space for that, it is just hoping that somehow naturally the the planets will align, you'll be on the same page. And something will happen whilst you are making Friday Night Dinner that will inspire passion between the two of you. And I think that's, that's definitely very different than Hey, on Friday, we're going to disconnect from everything else and connect with each other. And let's see what happens. And this way you're not planning actual sex. Unless that's sometimes planning actual sites can be really fun, though, to your planning connection. And that can morph into to your point, then you can walk up and down those steps together.

Effy

Yes, exactly. Exactly. And to your point, absolutely. I think planning sex can be fun. And a good place to learn from is folks in the community who plan to the tee scenes, right? So they spend sometimes up to weeks of really sort of scripting to an extent, like a scene where they really talk through the power dynamics, and what's going to happen, what's the storyline, and they've talked about the desires and the boundaries, and you know, all the experiences and things like that. So they're always I think when we say planning sex, it sounds so dry, that it's not fun for anyone, right? You just like, oh, planning sex, like, that's kind of like planning sex. It's like when rest and reason meet, support and fuck, and it's just like you like planning it just like the words planning and sex is like, oh, that sounds dry. So, so boring. I think I think we just get stuck on the semantics, right? I think planning is extra, like, whatever, we can come up with new words for this. But planning sex, if I was to think about kinky folks who are like, really thinking about designing scenes, like that's hot as hell, you know, like the amount of energy the amount of thought that goes into it. And the fact that like, when you're thinking you can get aroused by it, you can do research and get aroused by it. Like, you can really plan that sex and have fun while you're doing it. But I think when we say words like planning sex or scheduling date nights, I think we might want to think about those words, I think. I think the words are what sort of making us go Wow. Like scheduling sex. Like scheduling is a boring word. Like why are you putting it next to like an exciting fun word like sex? You're ruining it. It's like food. You're like putting a horrible tasting soapy thing in my delicious food and telling you to be happy about my food. It's just not gonna have have, you know, when you say scheduling Whoa, into sex? Like you just run my sizing times?

Jacqueline

I think that I think that one of the reasons why that is the case and we don't scheduled talk about it and it feels uncomfortable, is it sometimes talking about sex can feel embarrassing. And I want to note that because I think we have a negative connotation when we think about fight and flight. And we're like, we shouldn't be in fight and flight, we shouldn't be in rest and digest like all the time. And that will get you killed, right. Like, if you're an animal, you cannot actually be rest and digest all the time, you will then die. You, like flight and fight have their purpose and are very valuable and necessary, and are good, it is not is not a bad thing. What is bad is when we start to apply fight and flight survival techniques to everyday situations that are not life and death. Like when you get an email from your boss, and you suddenly go into fight and flight mode, like that's not the best way actually to to deal with that exit. It's not bad in the same way flirt and fuck is not bad. But I do think it has a negative association, I do think it's, well, that's the thing you do when you're younger, or that's the thing that you do in the beginning of a relationship, but not when it's settled in. Or even when you're in a relationship. You don't talk about those kinds of things. Because, you know, those are those are your private thoughts. You keep that private, I think that there's something that's negative about flirting Focke again, in the same way that fight and flight is, and that, at least for me, has prevented me from naming in the past some of the things that I wanted and scheduling it to your point and all those that it feels like it should be spontaneous and just happen. Because the idea of talking about it and being vulnerable in that way feels super scary.

Effy

Absolutely. I think it's, you know, if you look at our systems or societies, you know, like sex is only for making babies in marriages. Like we don't encourage this idea of like embodying our sexuality, we don't talk about being fully sexually self expressed. Like we don't think about flirting as a certain energy that you also get to deal with your 20 year old partner my age, but the relationship was 20 years old. So I don't I agree with you, I don't think we champion this idea of flirting, fuck, and especially I think as people get older, the older you are, especially if you're a woman, the idea of like I want to be in I'm gonna flirt and fuck mode is definitely discouraged and stigmatized. And shunned. For sure. And I think even within relationships, I know that there's this idea of like, Oh, you have kids, you know, as if you're like, they're not supposed to flirt and fuck later on in your life or later on in your relationship. That's not that's not the case. However, here's the super important thing. And I'm gonna keep coming back to that and just pointing it out for anybody who's listening, who's saying, Listen, we are our relationship is not about flirting, right? And that's okay. The idea is not that you must have those things in your in your relationship, the idea is to be aware of those states that these states exist and they cannot coexist. And you might have to shift from one to the other depending on the needs and wants of the people in that particular relationship. Right. As long as people are aligned, like we said, it is okay to be have a relationship that purely exists in rest in reason. It is a okay, as long as nobody in the relationship is yearning for seeking, hoping, wishing you're secretly praying that there was there was a flight and flight mode that suddenly spontaneously that happens in the relationship right? That's the only glitch you can have a relationship that's all about float and fuck you can have relationship is all about rest and reason. You can have a relationship that beautifully and smoothly transitions one from the other. You have a good relationship where you have to actively say, hey, tonight's all about risk sneezing Hey, this weekend's all about flirting fun. And you have to name it, right? Those are all AOK relationships, the thing they have in common is that people in it are aligned.

Jacqueline

Yeah. And alignment also means I mean, there are plenty of relationships where both were let's say you're in a rest and digest mode. And both folks feel like they want some of that flow and fuck energy, but don't tell each other that they're actually both masturbating in separate rooms wishing that they could be having sex, but actually or you know, so that is true. And there there are instances I'm sure this has happened for me where I'm in Florida fuck mode, and want some more safety and some more grounding, and both people may want that too, but don't want to mess with the energy. Don't want to be that person that like ruins the fun with scheduling, as you say, you know, that, you know, wants to continue to play the game. And so how, how do we create both of those things? I think that if you are in a monogamous relationship, and you've decided that you're gonna have one sexual partner, then it is about being aware and having that conversation around? How can you consider or collaborate on how much time you want to spend in each of those areas? I think that's where the self audit can come in. What do you you can ask yourself, what do you currently have? Why is it that way? What do you want? Can you get it from your current relationship? What do you think your partner wants? Why do you think that's what they want? Because the next step is going to be communication to validate if that's the story in your head is true. But to do that self audit to say, am I getting all those buckets met? Do I feel the safe and the sexy? And how much time do I want to spend in each?

Effy

Yes? And what it looks like? Right? What does rest and reason look like for you? Is it sweatpants? Couch, Netflix, is it out there? trekking in nature? Or planting a garden? Is it intellectual pursuits? Like, are you taking classes together? Right? So what is it? What does rest in Reason look like for you? Like, what is that state? This is what I'm saying? It's like, think about it as a state a way of being. And then you need to kind of do the self audit around. What does that look like? Like? What does safety look like for me? When I'm safe? How do I know that I'm safe? What's happening to my body physiologically, what's happening to my breath? And what's happening? What does it take for my environment? To induce a state of safety for me, right?

Jacqueline

So the rest and reason peace is something that is very, very personal that we need to understand for ourselves, both personally, and also in the context of the relationship, right? Because rest and reason in one relationship can look very different than the rest of reason in another relationship. That's why these are states not descriptive behaviors. Yes. And I want to note that we're talking a lot about how do you get this within partnership or partnerships and, and the role that each person plays. But I want to go back to when we talk about this all the time, it really is about what's happening for you. If you are not comfortable with things with yourself with things in your life, you're not going to have a comp, that kind of comfort level with somebody else. If you do not feel sexy and have that energy, that's going to be really hard to manifest that within a Fleur unfuck dynamic. And so, and actually, the solution doesn't even need to come with the other person. So I'm in I'm in poly Fidelis relationship. So I am not sexually active with anyone outside of folks that I'm in relationship with. And right now, I have been in with my wife for almost 10 years with my partner for almost four. And so there's a lot of Western reasoning that's happening. There's certainly those other moments, but there's, and what I realized is, I haven't been feeling as sexy as I have in the past. And it's not about not having sex, I'm having sex, but that like flirty energy, feel swagger, like, I wasn't feeling that. And so I decided to do a few things for myself. First, I got a real sexy hair cut.

Effy

And it is so hot.

Jacqueline

I decided to go with some curly bangs. Yes, Mama, I got curly bangs. It was like a departure from what I was doing before. But I wanted something different. I started taking burlesque classes. Super fun, we absolutely need to do an episode about burlesque because it was some fantastic and started to do some things for me. So that I would have an energetic change and feel sexier and feel energetically in that flirt and fuck mode without actually having to involve anybody else. It nothing to do with with anybody else. And similarly, I have had to really sit with myself and see why don't I feel stable or safe? Or in a mode of reasoning? And what do I need to do for myself to get into that stage before involving any other partner?

Effy

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. We are the common denominators of our lives. So and everything starts with with us and what's inside of us, and how are we feeling? So that makes so much so much sense to me? And I do agree, right? And I would also encourage people to think about as you're reflecting on rest and reason, for example, first of all to say, Do you truly feel in rest in recent mode, you might be on the couch in your, in your sweatpants and watching Netflix. And it might look like you're in rest mode, right? But are you truly investment? What are you present? Is your mind feeling in the room? Or are you like, worried about something else? Like are you truly in the rest and reason mode? Right? Are you let's talk about reason, like Are you truly collaborating and trying to problem solve or are you phony, right, which looks like a reason from the outside, but how are you feeling? So absolutely. I think when we're reflecting on the restaurant, reason or flirting, fuck you. We have to really truly think about how we're feeling. And if we're truly embodying that right with or whether it's just looking like that from the outside.

Jacqueline

Yeah. And then you can switch. Again, this isn't doesn't mean you're like stuck in that stage you can, once you have that realization on the couch, you can like shake it off and be like, no, no be here, right here in this moment. And you can walk up those steps from tears, Canaries, you can walk up to the top and sit there and rest and reason or you can like look at the other person, get some some eyes and maybe some flirting but but you have the ability to navigate through, if you're in a relationship, that you know that that's your only sexual partner, if you're in an open relationship, then you do have more options, you can have different relationships that meet different needs. The key there is to be honest with all parties about the kind of connection that you want in that and make sure that there is consent about the type of connection that exists in each of those relationships and not just segregating them in your mind and not talking to anybody about it.

Effy

Right? Absolutely. I'll certainly say would flirt. In fact, by the way, it's like we, I mean, foreign focus, kind of fun, you know, section title. And I think even though we're seeing certain fuck, and we're talking about it being this like carnal yearning, tearing each other's clothes off type state, again, that's really prescriptive behavior. We also have to think about like, step back a little bit and think about what this flirting fuck look like for me, right? For me, for example, flirting is more physical than verbal, right? I can, I can do the talking at a bar thing. But that's not how like my prime sort of flirt and certain fuck mode is more about like, hands on bodies moving dancing. That is for me, okay, now I'm in the flirting, flirting. I'm more like the flirt on a dance floor than I am at a, you know, at a bar. Because at some point in the conversation at a bar is going to put me in my in my reason mode for too long, I'm probably going to get caught in some argument or explaining some concept because my nerdiness will kick in. And I'm going to fall out a flirt into reason. Right? So I know that for me to say in flirt, we either have to get to some sort of physical and like, just some sort of physical contact or ideally movement, right. And it doesn't have to like I flirt on a dance floor bubble, you know? So, yeah, looks different for different people.

Jacqueline

Yes, that makes sense to me. Like, you know, I'm going to be having some serious life conversations. So again, we're doing wills and mortgages and all those things. But I often like to have those types of conversations outside. And you know, this coming weekend, I'm gonna go go to the park and like, you know, sit out in the park with my wife and talk through some stuff that just says we're kind of figuring out next steps and in some of the areas of our lives, and there's something about being outside and grounded in nature, that allows me to be in that restaurant. And reason mode. Again, being at home. I'm just surrounded by the my, my visual to do list. And so being outside of that state, and then to your point, yes to dance floors for flirting fuck mode. Yes to that, please. One of the things that I that a need that I would like met, I need to figure out how to what stage do I need to I just want to make out I miss making out the beginning or just like kissing and kissing for like hours and like, Oh, and there's the touching the other things but you just like cancer? Why? Why does that go away? Yeah. You need to awaken

Effy

it doesn't go away.

Jacqueline

Yeah, I'm gonna need to we need I need some steps. We need to walk up some steps. Yeah, that needs to walk up and down some steps. Myself. Yeah, more making out that's happening. Yeah, I guess it's, you know, I gotta take I gotta Doctor heal thyself. I need to do a self audit, and then have conversation with the people my life would be like, Hey, what are the conditions under which you can have a makeup session?

Effy

Totally, totally. I think it's asking you questions like what gets you to flirt and fuck mode? What does it take for you? You know, and again, like, like, it doesn't have to be this. You know, ramblings it could be the soft, soft, sensual, sexual connection. It doesn't it doesn't really matter. It looks like it is really a state of mind, instead of being to really embody flirt and fuck or rest and reason without falling off the edges to disconnect.

Jacqueline

Yes, yes, yes. Yes. So if you're out there in the world, and I've been thinking, I need more fluid and fucking my relationship, but it really should happen spontaneously, like, it's just like, just the energy. That is not the case. You wouldn't feel that way about rest and reasoning things like you wouldn't be on a crowded subway and want to have a concrete deep conversation about something you know, you would want to be in the right conditions. And you would set that up to make sure that you're in the right conditions. So why not set up the space where something can happen, something can emerge there that is fun and flirty and sexy. And not it feels like scheduling. I like that what you describing it about and using the kink model of setting the scene. Mm. So how do you set the scene so that what can emerge emerges in that space solely,

Effy

totally. And I think, especially if we're seeing if especially a long term relationship, and we're if you're a domestic partnership, and we spending a lot of time at home, our domestic environments are more often than not designed for restaurant reason, right? Unless you have a sex room, which I think is a show on Netflix now, where people are actually putting sex rooms into their homes, right? Unless you have a sex room, right? Or you have porn available on your phone, or on your TV that you can get to with your remote, right? Most of the time, our domestic environments are geared towards restaurant reason, which is something else that we might want to think about. Right? It is they're designed for ease, they're designed for comfort, they're designed for predictability, right? And I think both macro and micro like systemically, culturally, societally and micro domestically, we don't put things in places to really invoke flirt and fuck energy, right. So it's not only that it's like, feeds within ourselves, but like, we don't have the external clues and the support and the celebration of sex and sexuality. So Florida doesn't get the same support and the push that restaurant, reason gets, right. So if you look at the six positive communities, people were having, like we were talking about sexuality, we're experimenting, they're exchanging notes, going to six parties, you know, exploring all that kind of stuff. Those people are actually besides like, wanting to have connections over for a fact. But they also saw the breeders and reinforced through a community of people who also championing and like putting this idea of sex and sexuality, front of mind, right? So that's something else as we're thinking about, if you surround yourself constantly towards rest and reason, right, that's why vacation sex that you talked about vacation sex, right? Why vacation is so good. It is away from Yes, your visual to do list, but also the environment that you have so painstakingly designed for rest and reason for comfort, for safety for cozy, right. I would make an argument and say like, maybe we need to rethink about our bedrooms, right? So I think those are the other things why why Fleur and Fabian sort of disappears, dissolves. Urbino dissipates at the other reasons. It's, it's not only that it's shamed and stigmatized and taboo. It's also more insidious than that. We just don't have the physical cues for it, we don't have the environment setup for it. There is no change in our environment. That's all designed for for comfort and rest and reason to know, like, what is going on? What is the thing that's going to spontaneously prompt us into flight? And

Jacqueline

yes, yes. And that goes back to polyvagal theory, right. So think back into the animals in the Sahara, they don't just get up and start running as fast as they can for no reason. It is in response to their environment, they look and see danger approaching and they get up and they get the hell out of there, where they start fighting for their lives, right, like, so they're not just similarly, we're not just sitting at dinner, and then look at each other. And then like, push the dishes off the thing and like, throw each other, like the environment isn't such to create that reaction. And so if you were and also if you're in Florence, luck mode, maybe you and you want some more rest and reason, then you can schedule time to go take a walk with the person that you you know, are playing with and just have conversation or meet somewhere where it is not sexy. And it is about go to go to a library or bookstore and like, show each other your favorite books and like talk about that. But I Yes, that is the key. The key is create the environment that will allow for the reaction in the same way that real rest and digest and fight and flight is a reaction to our environment.

Effy

Exactly the stimulus you need a stimulus to get into, you know, you might just be so lucky that both people are feeling physiologically aroused in that moment. And horny and it looks like the spontaneous combustion and you're in like foreign Park and you're like, yeah, why isn't this happening now? It's like we are more biochemically reinforced to be who regulated into horniness at the beginning of our relationship, that's a new relationship energy that is yours millennia of evolution, right? Once that that CO regulation that that biochemical reinforcement feeds you we need external stimuli. So yes, in order for us to shift to that, and I think it is the fantasy is the myth. It's the false ideology that this idea of spontaneous sex with no external stimuli is just going to appear. It's I think it's super corrosive to relationships

Jacqueline

or even that safety and security and that that will just magically exist in relationship to without intentionality around creating space for that. Exactly. Alright, so this is this is our next steps. Everybody, gather close. We are I'm going to do a self audit, we're going to look at our lives and say, How much rest and reason do we have? How much float? And fuck? Are we in disconnect mode? Right? We're going to think about that. Think about what we want, what we think maybe what is what are the stories in our mind around why we haven't gotten those things, why we're not in those stages, then we're gonna have conversations with the people that we're with, so that we can collaborate together on creating environments that allow us then to switch into whichever mode we want to be in, so that we can have some rest and reason we can have some fun and fuck, we can walk up and down those steps together, holding hands. And so with honesty and communication, it sounds very simple. It is not easy, though.

Effy

Like my goal of these things, simple but not easy. You can do it. Yes, we can do it. And tell us tell us I would love to hear this, I would love to hear two things. One. By the way, I'm back in the Facebook group, everyone, this is a big celebration. Somebody very kindly helped me out. I would love to hear it on the Facebook group. One, I love to hear from people. What does restaurant reason and foreign faculty look like? For you? What does it look like? What does it feel like? What are the conditions that support and nurture those dates? What are the things that get in the way of those days, and that is your first like, top level self audit. And the second thing I want to hear from everyone is how do they think that they can switch from one to the other and to the other again, without falling of the edges into disconnect?

Jacqueline

And if you do, if we all go if we go into disconnect, which happens to me, we can get out of it. We can get out of it. We can do it. So go on to Facebook, in our Facebook group. We are curious foxes on Facebook, you can check us out on Instagram, we are curious foxes, and then check out our website. We are curious foxes, we have been doing some website updates to make it easier for you to find the blog posts and the resources that you're curious about. We love the way that it looks. We love our artists partners, and so please go on. Take a look. It is both colorful and informational. You're gonna enjoy it. And if you find this episode or any of our episodes interesting or funny or helpful, please share our podcast with a friend. Quickly rate the show, leave a comment or subscribe to Apple podcast or follow us on Spotify and Stitcher. It is only going to take you a few seconds of your time, but it will have a big impact for us. And if you want to support the work that we're doing and continue to indulge your curiosity join us on Patreon at we're curious foxes you're gonna be able to find mini episodes, podcasts extras that couldn't make it onto the show, and over 50 videos from educator led workshops that we have hosted so go to Patreon. At we're curious boxes, and then let us know that you're listening. Share your comments and stories and questions and episodes ideas by emailing us or sending us a voice memo to listening at we're curious boxes.com Or you can record a question for the show by calling 646-450-9079

Effy

This episode is produced and edited by Nina Pollack with whom we have a beautiful relationship of all states. Our intro music is composed by dev Sahab. We are so grateful for that work. And we're grateful to you for listening. As always stay curious friends brushing up the cobwebs but in

Jacqueline

doing Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers peck of pickled peppers Peter Piper picked up Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers with a peck of pickled peppers Peter Piper picked

Effy

where you were spending most of your time and rest and digest. Sorry, sorry. We are back. Well, curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends.

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