Ep 135: Unpacking Infidelity, Surviving the Earthquake
What happens to a relationship after there is betrayal? Is it possible to rebuild after trust is destroyed? Can infidelity exist within a non-monogamous relationship?
In this revisited episode, Effy and Jacqueline take a deeper dive into Jacqueline's story of surviving what felt like an earthquake when she discovered some shocking information about her wife.
To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla
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TRANSCRIPT:
Effy
Welcome to the Curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex and relationships. My name is Effy Blue. My dear friend, thought partner and co host Jacqueline Misla is out sick this week, so we haven't been able to record the episode we planned. However, do not fret friends, we have selected an episode to revisit that captures the story of the affair that changed the trajectory of Jacqueline's life. years ago, weeks before she was to be married. Jacqueline found out that her wife to be was unfaithful. Though they were non monogamous. This other relationship had been kept a secret from her with disastrous results. Jacqueline beautifully tells a story of heartbreak and healing as a part of an infidelity trilogy, we bravely are potentially madly produced some time ago. Although Jackie and I have been on both sides of affairs in this trilogy of four episodes. Shout out to Douglas Adams, Jacqueline shares her experience as the person who was cheated on and I tell my story as the person who cheated. You can go back and listen to the original episodes starting from Episode 61. For today, let's go back to the story that shook Jacqueline's world and ultimately brought her and I together as creative partners. Enjoy the episode.
Jacqueline
Today, I'm going to do a deeper dive into my story. Talk about my fascination with natural disasters, and break down how I found stability again,
Effy
when fidelity is uncovered, it often feels like an earthquake. I've heard this from so many people I've worked with, if not directly naming it. It's reflected in the way they talk about the experience. People often talk about how all at once the stability of the world as they know it shifts beneath them. And once the ground stop shaking, people are faced with the wreckage or trying to make sense of it all. Some walk away immediately leaving it all behind. Some decide to walk through the wreckage, trying to see if they can salvage anything. In all these cases, it feels like a disaster.
Jacqueline
I was three years into my relationship when my unnatural disaster hit. It was my first consensual non monogamous relationship after being a serial monogamist and married for over a decade. This was also my first relationship with a woman falling in love with her I felt like I was acknowledging, embracing and loving a new side of myself, one that was not confined by monogamy, or gender or anyone else's definition of love. I felt seen and known in a way that I had never had before. And although we were in an open relationship, we were both so wrapped up with each other, and in building our life together, that neither of us wanted to see anybody else. Two weeks before we to be married, everything changed. I was in the midst of a personal life change. I started my coaching consulting practice after 15 years and nonprofit work. My daughter and I moved from our Manhattan apartment, which was three blocks from Central Park and Lincoln Center to a residential part of Brooklyn to be with my soon to be wife. I was orchestrating the details for our upcoming wedding taking place in the front of the water with the Brooklyn Bridge and the skyline as our backdrop, our expression of love, both for each other and for New York City. And despite all of the things that were consuming my mind and my attention, there was this underlying feeling that something was off. My wife started to work later and later, she carried her phone around everywhere she went which was unusual for her as she began talking a lot more about her friend. I sensed that there was something going on between them several times I asked her if there was anything happening if she had a crush feelings were developing. And each and every time she denied it. She became more private. And even when she was with me, it felt like her mind was somewhere else. My suspicion grew and moments before traveling to the restaurant to write our Her wedding vows. I found myself madly scrolling through her text messages trying to find evidence that validated what my gut had been urging me to see.
Unknown Speaker
And I found it. I confronted her.
Jacqueline
And she admitted that she had fallen in love. And they had been involved for at least six months. I suggested that we call the wedding off, and she committed to do whatever was necessary to repairing the damage and rebuilding the
Unknown Speaker
trust. We got married, we celebrated, and we separated.
Jacqueline
We started meeting with Effie for relationship coaching. We argued, we learned, we cried. We laughed, and we tried to rebuild. And despite the fact that I loved her, and wanted deeply for my relationship to thrive, despite the fact that I was the one who introduced non monogamy into our relationship. And despite the fact that I did not like who I had become as a result of what happened, I just could not seem to move on. I couldn't let go of the hurt the resentment, the rage, and the recurring internal narrative that said that I was no longer safe. My world had shaken and the pillars of my life fell down in the process. How does one recover from that?
Unknown Speaker
About a year after
Jacqueline
I found out about my wife's emotional infidelity, I became obsessed with reading about earthquakes. After months of working on a relationship and still feeling like we were on shaky ground, I began to develop a curiosity around how earthquake survivors recovered after the ground underneath their feet shook, and the life that they knew was forever changed. I read research papers and survivor accounts, writing pages of notes, correlating the parallel between the aftermath of a natural disaster and the aftermath of my personal one.
Effy
disaster experts have actually identified a pattern, a succession of phases that individuals experience after natural disaster like an earthquake, from the time before the impact to the establishment of a newly constructed life. There are six phases, the pre disaster phase, the impact phase, the heroic phase, the honeymoon phase, the disillusionment phase, and the reconstruction phase. Unsurprisingly, these phases map onto the experience of an affair almost exactly, and create a structure and a narrative around what people go through. The pre disaster phase is characterized by uncertainty, anxiety, and fear. If a disaster hits with no warning, you can feel vulnerable out of control and unable to protect yourself or your family. On the other hand, sometimes there are small warning signs that something was brewing. Sometimes there are what they call foreshocks, small earthquakes that precede the big earthquake. If you realize that you ignore the warning signs, and embrace yourself for the quake, you can feel guilt, self blame, and self anger for not heeding the warnings.
Jacqueline
Weeks before wedding, my wife told me that she was in love with another woman. It felt as if the world stopped by understanding of my past my dreams for my future, and the security that I felt in the present moment collapsed
Unknown Speaker
all at once. I didn't see it coming. And I did. I was shocked
Jacqueline
and also angry at myself for not jumping to action. As soon as I became attune with the warning signals. I had noticed a change in my wife's behavior months before. But honestly, apart from those small changes, the biggest sign was in my gut, the nagging voice in my head, and the strong feeling of tightness in my chest, that something was wrong. Even though I shared my concerns and my observations with her, she'd always denied it. So I overrode my intuition, and I tried to ignore it, because I really wanted to believe her.
Effy
These foreshocks are warning signs that come in so many ways. In some cases, like in Jacqueline's story, the affair takes the person away from the relationship and creates distance. This can look like spending more time out of the home, longer work hours, not being available for dates, more screentime, withdrawal, lack of sexual interest. But the signs aren't always disconnection or distance. Sometimes people seem as if they're suddenly awakened. They become more engaged, more attentive, happier and lighter. They may have more interest in sex or willingness to explore. I've seen couples grow closer amidst an affair. And sometimes there are no signs, no warnings, no change to notice. The ground moves and shakes under you, out of nowhere. In all these cases, there is an emotional Fallout directly linked to the pre disaster phase.
Jacqueline
The realization that I had in fact seen the warning signs for a pending earthquake and didn't stop it somehow made me both furious at her, but also furious of myself at the time, I felt angry at the earthquake and angry at myself for not having the ability to prevent the disaster, I felt vulnerable and out of control, resentful and deeply unsafe all in a flash.
Effy
The impact phase of an earthquake is relatively short lived. So short lived, in fact, there is measured in seconds, the longest lasting earthquake ever recorded went on for five to 600 seconds. That's not very long at all. But it literally shook the whole planet in space. The survivors of an earthquake talk about their experience as if it was forever, or they thought that it would never end. This is because so much happens during that short period of time. As the ground shakes, people are flooded by a broad range of thoughts and feelings, from shock and disbelief, to panic and a drive to self preservation. This is mimicked in the moment when people find out about the affair. These days, phones are often at the center of a disaster. Just as in Jacqueline story, one party checks the other's phone and finds a text, a photo and email a DM there are other ways of course, and note credit card statements, comments from strangers, sometimes a confession. Ultimately, the ground shakes. And that's all that matters. Moments after, as people find themselves standing amidst the wreckage, they often survey the damage and begin to take stock of the scope, destruction and loss.
Jacqueline
Personally, I experienced what a stare Perell describes in the state of affairs as swinging from depression to indignation, from lifelessness to roaring rage, from collapse, to counter attack. She had lied to my face multiple times. She made me feel crazy for believing that what I knew in my body was true. I could not stand the sight of her. But it also did not want her out of my sight. I was so livid that I couldn't stand to be touched by her. But I also wanted to be held and comforted by her. I know we had this vision for our relationship for life together, and it felt ruined,
Unknown Speaker
now soiled. And as I stood back
Jacqueline
and surveyed the damage, I could not understand how we would put the pieces back together.
Effy
In an earthquake. After the initial shock wears off, we enter into the heroic phase. This is when the survivors of the disaster tried to help one another to deal with the catastrophe. In a real earthquake. This is the time when the shellshocked community becomes altruistic and focuses on their emergency needs for food, water and shelter. People respond as their highest selves, demonstrating an adrenaline induced rescue behavior and pulling people from the wreckage offering needed supplies and giving the best of themselves to meet the most dire needs. After the revelation of an affair causes a metaphorical earthquake. This may be the phase where the initial anger and fear temporarily softens. And each person can see the other's pain. partners may talk all night about their feelings, reflect on their love recommit to each other and go out of their way to listen and try to understand each other. Others may focus on trying to save themselves rather than the relationship. This can look anywhere between a brand new closet and a haircut, to taking golf to travel around the world, or taking control by summoning a support network who could help them pull themselves out of the wreckage.
Jacqueline
A few weeks after finding out about the affair, we got married. And while I won't put this in the level of heroic. Looking back, it does feel a bit like adrenaline induced rescue behavior. Except I was trying to pull my relationship from the wreckage. during those weeks leading up to the wedding, we really did work hard to listen to each other, to sit in each other's pain, and ultimately to recommit to each other and to our life together. We sobbed during our ceremony, it felt like a burst of possibility that if we could just respond to the situation as our highest selves, then we could get through it together.
Effy
The heroic phase in a disaster characterized by altruism and a desire to rescue others quickly move goes into the honeymoon phase. The short lived phase is defined by a sense of bonding around this intense and personal common shared experience and hope that everything will return to normal is characterized by the idea that I Are we survived. During this time, partners are working on surviving their relationship disaster together, may go to therapy, they may become physically or sexually intimate again. And because of all the time spent talking about the relationship and their feelings, partners may feel temporarily closer than they ever did before. Those who decide to take a solo road might experience a newfound gusto. They may feel stronger than ever, they might embrace singledom with glee and do things they may have put off for the sake of the relationship. While this phase doesn't last long, and the bubble pops relatively quickly, it can be a glorious reprieve from the devastating shock, fear and the pain of the initial impact.
Jacqueline
For me, this phase ebbed and flowed. At times we felt invincible, and others irreconcilable. We spoke for hours about our relationship, went to relationship coaching, read books, attended workshops, dug into childhood wounds, and honestly learned more about ourselves and each other than we knew before. We went on dates again, the rooftop bars and the walks in Central Park that I longed for. We made love and cried. We told the truth. And we began to dream again, about what could be possible as we rebuilt. And even though our relationship began to deepen, it continued to struggle because of one important factor. She was still actively involved with this other woman, just because their love affair was revealed and that admission broke my heart didn't mean that they wanted to stop seeing each other. In fact, because their relationship was now out in the open. My wife wanted to spend more time with her have overnights and develop a non hierarchical relationship. I tried to focus my time alone on me, eating, watching and doing whatever I pleased. I painted I wrote, I went to museums and took myself out to eat all in an effort to reconnect with myself and deepen my relationship with me. And unfortunately, there continued to be this underlying current of disillusionment, and deep disappointment that the vision for my life and relationship had taken such a sharp and downward turn.
Effy
The disillusionment phase of an earthquake hits hard, and it can be long and arduous. It's often a stark contrast to the honeymoon phase. It's an epic calm down for most hope turns into discouragement, and anger and frustration re emerges. The closeness and connection walks into isolation and abandonment, and deep fear and pain can creep back in. This is actually when the individuals and the relationship are at their most vulnerable and fragile. In an actual earthquake. This is when the new cycle moves on, and the broader community goes back to normal. The aid and assistance might have run out or have done as much as possible. The survivors are now left in their individual experiences to truly face what happened square on. Similarly for the people coming down from the honeymoon phase of an affair. The reality and the stress of the situation can take it all. Physical and emotional exhaustion creeps in. Optimism is gone, and the loss can become consuming. sugars can be seen everywhere, reigniting and extending the fear, resentment, hurt, theory, desperation, disgust, and
Unknown Speaker
heartbreak.
Jacqueline
We were in this phase for a long time, stuck between what brought her joy and what caused me pain between who she was longing to be and be with and who I wanted us to be. Every time her phone dinged with a text message every time she had to work late every time she left the house for hours to run an errand. My mind became obsessed with the worst case scenarios. I imagined them together, laughing and plotting how they would run away together. I wondered if intimate gestures between us when she brushed the hair out of my face. When we lay together with legs intertwined when she'd hold my hand as we walked. If these moments now we're no longer just ours. And that possibility broke my heart would explode into fits of rage or meltdown on the floor in tears with an inability to breathe. Reaction to my hurt and anger fluctuated from empathy to shame to frustration to disgust I remember feeling as if I was going mad. The angrier that I got, the calmer she got, I would scream and she would stay silent. I would sob and she would sleep. One night, after an argument on a drive home, I refuse to get out of the car and go into the house with her. I sat in the car in the cold for over an hour waiting and willing her to come out to get me. I had an uncommunicative expectation that if she really loved me if she really wanted this to work if she really wanted to make amends that she would attend to each break down each tantrum and each heartbroken need of mind to prove herself and the value of our relationship. As time passed in the car, I moved from sad to furious, I called a local hotel and checked on availability and prices. And eventually I went into the house to grab an overnight bag. And when I walked into the living room, I found her asleep on the couch. While I wept and raged. She slept. I was beside myself. I began to yell at her, and I could see the disgust on her face as if she was embarrassed for me, repulsed and repelled by this shrieking woman in front of her. The look on her face triggered my own sense of revulsion at my behavior and the bitter resentment that I felt towards her for bringing out that side of me, I began to shout, you did this your lies, your cheating your apathy towards my pain, my reaction is not the problem, your behavior is. While our arguments never again escalated to that level of mutual disgust, it was a pattern that we revisited from time to time, she would do something big or small, that would trigger my insecurity, my pain by anger, and I would melt down in subtle or dramatic ways she would feel repelled my behavior and take solace alone or with her new partner. And I would feel as if I was losing my relationship, and more importantly, like I was losing myself.
Effy
So why do earthquakes happen? Both real ones, and metaphorical ones. An earthquake is a result of a shift in the tectonic plates beneath the earth's surface. When they move, it creates a reverberation that shakes the ground above. Similarly, the metaphorical earthquakes can be caused by individuals changing and moving in different directions. Earthquakes can also be caused by underground explosions, natural ones such as underground volcanoes, or human made ones like weapons testing or mining. Similarly, explosions beneath the surface of a relationship such as unmet needs. Deep, unresolved issues, and surfacing resentment can be the reason for our relationship to shake. Whatever the reason, it's worth exploring. Understanding why and how an earthquake happened, will allow us to rebuild safer homes and stronger relationships. Truth be
Jacqueline
told, there was more behind my sadness and simply being the wounded partner. I was also experiencing shame. See, I was married. When I met my wife. I was married when our friendship began to evolve into something deeper. I was married when my husband asked why my phone calls with her were so long and my dinner meetings were so late. And I was married, when my feelings for her prompted me to ask him to open up our marriage. That marriage ended in divorce. And I was afraid that this marriage would end the same way, the byproduct
Unknown Speaker
of karma, my just desserts. Eventually,
Jacqueline
I realized that I could not control the outcome of this marriage just as I could not have controlled the outcome of my first. My first marriage didn't end because I developed feelings for somebody else. My first marriage ended because after a decade, we were different people, I wanted different things. The 21 year old who met in college grew into adults who wanted to live differently, love differently and frankly, raise our daughter differently.
Unknown Speaker
By request to open our
Jacqueline
marriage was the invitation that my husband needed to name the things that he wanted, and to acknowledge that we could no longer get what we wanted from the other person. Similarly, my wife's emotional infidelity was an invitation, an invitation for her to confront her pattern of serial infidelity, to see herself through the loving eyes of someone new, and in turn to love new pieces of herself, and to see her relationship with me with new eyes as well. Both is something that was fragile, and should not be taken for granted, and something that was strong and could bear the weight of her truth. It was also an invitation for me. I had spent The first 30 years of my life, playing by the rules and succeeding by someone else's definition of success, I left my job and married a woman. And I believed that I was crafting my own path, one that was directed by my inner compass. And I realized that while I begun to fight back on external expectations, there was a much more insidious Nemesis to worry about my own inner narrative, the one that told me that I had to be the only one to be special, that my value came in whether or not I was chosen, and that the real me the messy, complicated, bigger than fits inside of my skin me that she could not be loved. This was an invitation to see and love myself, and to rebuild my life deeply rooted in that self love.
Effy
The final phase of the disaster recovery is the reconstruction phase. While continuing to grieve the loss, there is an adjustment to the new normal, the wreckage is cleared, and each person begins to assume responsibility for building their lives, whatever that may look like. Some build homes and new, others move away to start anew. Those who decide to stay together after an affair get an opportunity to rebuild the relationship that they never thought possible, a proverbial clear piece of land to create something, they may be open to new structures such as non monogamy, or may be reminded how much they love the monogamous home they built together. Those who decide to move on do so with a greater sense of empowerment that furthers the recovery. This process is slow. And it's also abundant in its ability to reaffirm one's own belief in their capability and capacity to recover.
Jacqueline
So here's how we reconstructed our relationship and how I rebuilt a relationship with myself. First, my wife asked me what did I need in order to restore our trust and connection, and I told her that everything needed to slow down, I asked her if she could take a break from seeing her partner. She was mad about it. But at that moment, my anger seemed to Trump hers. And so she begrudgingly agreed for about three months, they stopped seeing each other and limited their texts and calls. And it was hard for both of them, particularly because they were still in the throes of new relationship energy. But they did it. And I appreciated the gesture. I appreciated having more of her focus, having more time with each other to talk and to heal. During those months, we met with Fe we read books, watched you to videos, went to workshops, and had countless hours of conversations, all focused on addressing our individual feelings, patterns and needs, as well as the needs of the relationship. Over time, and at my pacing. They began to see each other again, first twice a month and once a week than twice a week. And based on my request, she'd be home by dinner, then by 10pm than by midnight. And each time my wife, let me lead the way. I know that it was hard for her because she is wildly autonomous. And so she instinctively rejects anything that feels like rules or curfews. Yet she did it to rebuild trust. And to ensure that we were moving at a pace that I felt comfortable with. That said it wasn't an easy process. I mean, she and I were both frustrated. If it was up to me, they would have stopped seeing each other all together. And it was up to her, they would have had the flexibility to see each other daily. I was mad because she cheated. She was mad because our open relationship didn't feel open at all. There was a lot of anger and hurt and resentment on both sides. And that we had to navigate through. And frankly, when you're both feeling that way, it makes it really hard to remember why you're staying together. However, our shared values, the life we'd built, the way in which we cared for each other and the potential that we saw in our relationship and for our lives together kept us going. During one conversation, I remember sharing how frustrated I was that she came home an hour after we agreed she in turn shared her frustration at the amount of times that she had said no to dinner dates to calls to tax so that she could honor our agreements. I saw how hard she was trying. And somehow I was able to see past my hurt to see the person who I loved and my heart softened. The second thing that we did to reestablish connection as we sought help. A late night Google search led me to Effie blue, and soon I was meeting with her weekly. And my wife joined us shortly after we needed another perspective. We needed someone to help us break out of our own narrative and open us up to possibilities. I was able to hear things from Effie that I could not To hear from my wife, and she was able to unpack our behaviors in a way that resonated both in our hearts and in our nerdy heads. In that space, we were able to tell the truth, knowing that there was someone to catch us so that we wouldn't fall too far into our struggle without knowing the way out. We weighed our options, with difficult conversations. When we practice listening to each other. We each did our own work with Effie and in therapy to understand how she could experience the freedom that she needed in a way that didn't hurt me, and how I could let go of the original vision for my relationship without betraying myself and my needs. The third step we took to rebuild was eventually both accepting that there is no timeline for healing, it will take as long as it takes. As time passed, we both grew tired of dissecting ourselves and our relationship. We want it to be past it, we want it to be back to normal. Except there was no going back. The relationship that we once had was over. And we were in the process of building a new relationship, one that included both deeper pain and deeper joy and connection that we ever had before. And an accepting that the pain would not just go away. We both had some work to do to help the pain feel more manageable.
Unknown Speaker
For her part,
Jacqueline
it was important that she check in with me to see how it was feeling and to proactively create room for me to share my hurt and sadness. Often it's the responsibility of the person who was cheated on to continue to say, I'm hurt. I'm scared, I need reassurance. And over time, both the person who cheated and the person who was cheated on likely thinks is still you're still hurting, you're still angry? And the answer is yes. Still, when the earth beneath your feet shakes, and it shakes your sense of safety and stability, it takes a while to recover. By proactively checking in after her dates and asking me how I was feeling by inviting dialogue about the stories in my mind. And by continuing to apologize unprompted. For the hurt that her actions caused. It helped me feel like I did not have to keep reminding her that I was in pain, which reduced my resentment and replaced it with growing trust. As for my part, I needed to work on reframing. Instead of continuing to see this event as a disaster that destroyed my life. I worked to reframe it to see the event as an invitation for both of us to dig deeper into ourselves and our relationship. That reframing enabled me to be more patient with myself when I felt exhausted from the pain. The fourth step on the journey, I had to take on my own, I needed to revisit my expectations for my wife and our relationship. I wanted excitement in my life, passion, romance, eroticism, and I wanted those things for my relationship with my wife. And I wanted her to want those things to I remember telling her that I wanted her to want to take me out to museums or for drinks. I wanted her to want to write me letters and to read me poetry, or sometimes I wouldn't tell her what I wanted at all, and would secretly pining for those things with the unspoken expectation that she would somehow know what I wanted, and how to deliver it because she wanted those things to essentially, I want a new relationship energy all the time. And while I've come to realize that energy phase doesn't fade, for me the way that it does for other people, I do understand that when the newness of a relationship is gone, that for some so is the drive for passion and excitement and romance. And so we both revisited our expectations, I realized that she was not my only source of passion and eroticism and romance. I started dating, I went to non monogamous events, I took myself out along dates to museums or for drinks and I spent more time with friends. I expanded my support system and my connections and stopped expecting that one relationship would fit all of my needs. on her part, Fe introduced my wife to the concept of energy redistribution, which essentially is leveraging the time and energy that you put towards a new relationship, to also feel your existing one. Excited to plan a fancy date with your new partner. After that, think to yourself, when was the last time I went on a date with my existing partner and plan something fun for the two of you. Buying a gift for your new partner? Ask yourself when's the last time you bought something for your current partner and think of something special that you could get for them? Essentially, use the prompts that are driving your creativity and your generosity for your new relationship to pour into your existing one as well. Lastly, on the road to healing, I worked to let go of the labels. I've gotten Stuck on what we were where we open or poly hierarchical or non hierarchical was i Her primary partner or nesting partner. While I had left the framework of monogamy, I got stuck trying to determine the framework for non monogamy from one construct to another. While I rejected labels and all other areas of my life, I was holding on to labels in my relationship as a way to define my value and my significance as a way to distinguish myself as special, important and worthy of love. I realized that my work was about healing with myself, and that no amount of labels can define my value. So instead, I focused on letting go of what to call it. And instead, we focused on designing relationship that worked for us. It's been four years since the earthquake, and my wife and I are still together. Our relationship look really different now, not what I expected or planned for, and yet, it's one that feels deeply safe and rooted in trust and mutual respect. We have a stronger closer and more honest relationship than before. She continued to be with her partner for several years after I found out about their relationship. And two years later, I fell in love with someone and I moved in with them. I now split my time between the two homes with my wife and my partner, and I'm consistently surprised by how much love My heart is able to hold holding room not only for my relationships, but more importantly, for me,
Effy
disasters and affairs are traumatic, painful and messy. Everyone has their own unique experience and grapple with their inner turmoil. Road to Recovery is long and arduous. Trust is probably the hardest thing to rebuild. After all the conversations mutual and personal work, it boils down to a leap of faith. One chooses to take a step forward without knowing if the ground will hold. Although it may feel like it's easy to try to assign blame and villainize the party who transgressed there is often more to the story. And that's what we're going to explore next week. As the party who cheated. I'll share the not so neat version of my story, how I ended up in my relationship, the choices I made, what led me to cheat on my then husband, and the aftermath of my choices.
Unknown Speaker
If
Jacqueline
you enjoyed this or any of our episodes, then you should find out more about us and get engaged. You can do that a few different ways. First, check us out on our website, on Instagram and Facebook all under the same name. We are curious foxes. We have updated our website to make it easier for you to find blog posts and the resources that you are curious about and it is beautiful. Just visually beautiful. Just Just go on. We are curious foxes and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. If you find that our episodes are interesting or funny or helpful, that we ask that you share our podcast with a friend. You can quickly rate the show you can leave a comment, you can subscribe on Apple podcast or follow us on Spotify or Stitcher. It will only take a few seconds of your time, but it's gonna have a big impact for us. And if you want to support the show, and you want to continue to indulge your curiosity, and you should be joining us on Patreon. Go to patreon at we're curious boxes and you're going to find many episodes, podcasts extras that we couldn't fit into the show and over 50 videos from educator led workshops. So go onto Patreon. We are curious foxes. And then of course, let us know that you're listening. Let us know if you have a comment, a story a question or an episode idea. You can email us or send us a voice memo to listening at we are curious foxes. Or you can record a question for the show by calling us at 646-450-9079
Effy
This episode is written by the brilliant and courageous Jacqueline Missler. It's produced and edited by Nina Pollack, the solid ground under our feet. Our intro music is composed by Dave Saha. We are so grateful for their work. And of course, we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends.
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