Ep 136: Talking to Kids about Sex, Gender, and Relationships with Cory Silverberg
Illustration by the talented @morelaaand
What is the distinction between talking with children about their bodies, about sexuality, and about sex? And why is it important to talk about each? What are some barriers for adults to have these conversations with the children in their lives? How can we ensure that our conversations about sex are age appropriate…and what does “age appropriate” mean anyway?
In this episode, Effy and Jacqueline chat with children’s non-fiction author Cory Silverberg about having expansive conversations with children about sex and sexuality, including consent, body autonomy, pleasure, relationships, and identity - all grounded in the child’s experience. They discuss the building blocks that support honest dialogue between children and trusted adults, as well as some of the barriers and pitfalls adults can come across when talking to the kids in their lives.
More about Cory
Raised in the 1970s by a children’s librarian and a sex therapist, Cory grew up to be a sex educator, author, and queer person who smiles a lot when they talk.
Cory spends a lot of time reading, writing, and talking about sex and gender and are happiest working with others. Cory was a founding member of the Come As You Are Co-operative and worked as a researcher and television consultant for over 10 years. Cory is a core team member of ANTE UP!, a virtual professional freedom school founded by Bianca I Laureano. They also spend a lot of time helping other people make books.
Cory is the co-author of four books including What Makes a Baby, the ALA Stonewall Honor Book Sex Is a Funny Word, and the forthcoming You Know, Sex, all with Fiona Smyth. Cory has been featured on NPR’s Fresh Air, and their books have been called “the books about sex that every family should read” by the New York Times. Cory's life is full of kids. All of them know where babies come from. Some know more. Learn more about Cory at www.corysilverberg.com.
IG: @corysilverberg
Twitter: @corysilverberg
FB: https://www.facebook.com/whatmakesababy
Website: www.corysilverberg.com
Profile in the New York Times Magazine: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/28/magazine/sex-ed-books-teens-parents.html
ANTE UP! Professional Development School: https://www.anteuppd.com/
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Curious Fox @wearecuriousfoxes
Effy Blue @coacheffyblue
Jacqueline Misla @jacquelinemisla
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TRANSCRIPT:
(intro)
Hello, hi. Hi. Hi. Hello. I'm curious about curious about I'm curious about cute is about building open, authentic, loving relationship? I'm curious about jealousy. I'm curious about polyamory, just mean that you're fucking all the time. How can I tell my parents that my partner is already married and curious about how do you know when you're too busy to have another relationship? I'm curious about dominance, subordinate relationship. I'm curious about sexual health. How can relationships evolve with people as they grow and change?
Cory Silverberg
The way that we try to make books is that we're actually trying to center young people's experience. So we're less interested in what adults think kids need to know and more interested in what they want to know.
Effy
Welcome to the curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy blue.
Jacqueline
And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today we're diving into the sex talk. That uncomfortable yet important conversation that we have with kids, often just about the time that their bodies start changing. Now, talking to kids about sex goes beyond the birds and the bees.
Effy
Well, maybe let's stop saying birds and the bees start with.
Jacqueline
Yes, yes. And in fact that conversations about sex often have nothing to do with sex, consent, body autonomy, pleasure, relationships, identity. These are all the building blocks to a healthy romantic sexual relationship with oneself and with others, and ultimately, a strong sense of self.
Effy
Although important, let's be honest, these conversations can be awkward for everybody involved. Many of us can remember the uncomfortable sit downs with our parents, or maybe your sex education came from reductive sex at a school, magazines, movies or older friends. The fact that many of us didn't have proper sex education makes it harder to talk about sex with the children in our lives. So how do we tackle this challenge? First, start early, little often, and in a way that feels age and developmentally appropriate for the child specifically, start with the basics, learning about body parts body autonomy, consent, feelings, and relationship skills. Keep the communication channel open and build on what you've already discussed. Second, have good resources that invite curiosity and provide safe conversation starters.
Jacqueline
We've often talked in the show about the lack of resources that we had growing up and the misinformation that we got as kids. The whitewashed hetero and mono normative sometimes elusive information wrapped in euphemisms and innuendos that left us feeling confused and not seen. In Episode 127, the sex misinformation crisis, we spoke with journalist Sophia Smith gala about the impact that sex misinformation has on us personally, and as a society. What we needed as kids were resources that were honest, engaging, accurate, and reflective of different types of bodies and relationships.
Effy
Guess what kids? Today, we're talking to someone who has made it their mission to make the sex dog empowering instead of embarrassing.
Cory Silverberg
I'm Corey Silverberg. I'm an educator and an author. I make kids books about gender and sexuality that are also good for adults and families.
Jacqueline
Along with co author and illustrator Fiona Smith, Cory is the author of what makes a baby sex is a funny word, and the book that we focused on during our conversation, you know, sex. In addition to being a parent, educator, and author, Corey is just a lovely human being, our conversation with them went way beyond the allotted hour, making it hard for us to cut the best parts for this conversation. So if you're a Patreon member, you can listen to the extended version of the episode at we are curious foxes on Patreon.
Effy
There has been many books and curricula about sex ed, for preteens and teens. Knowing what's out there, we started by asking what their guiding principles were while writing their latest book, you know,
Cory Silverberg
sex? Well, I mean, yeah, so I mean, there's the content, but I guess the the guiding principles, I mean, the first one is just I didn't want to lie, right? I don't want to say anything. That's not true. And so what that means is, I'm not very I'm certainly this, there's nothing there's no universal statements in this book. Right? There just aren't any, you know, in terms of like, sixth grade or sixth is a problem or your feelings are this or this is going to look like this. I'm just not aware of any useful any universal truth in that way because we all experience stuff differently all of our bodies and minds are different and so I really didn't want to say I just so much sex education is very well meaning but you read it and you're just like, you know, in some of it might really click and then you get to the part which is just like that is just not true. And it's not just that they've said some people that it's that they say this is the way it is puberty is blank. or even sexist blank, right, like, so I don't answer any question with a single answer. Because I don't mind people saying, You left me out, I'm gonna do it, you know, obviously I don't want to do is but like people saying like you left me out of this book or this doesn't fit for me that makes perfect sense. I really don't want someone to leave the book feeling like I the author and right and they are wrong because that was my experience a lot as a kid is reading this material and thinking, oh, there's something wrong with me, right. And that's the last thing I want anyone to get away with. So that's sort of that's sort of a guiding principle or practice, right? That whenever Of course, I would write I'm like, everyone I met my first draft is terrible. And I would write all sorts of sentences full of full of like, exaggerated universals. And then I just, it all goes in in the edits. And then the other thing is disability justice. So my my work is really informed by disability justice, my life is informed by it, and being in disability community. So sort of, you know, thinking about ableism, and thinking about what disability justice looks like, as it applies to every topic. I think those are kind of the biggest sort of guides for me,
Jacqueline
that makes a lot of sense to me. On our Facebook page, we'll make sure to show some some pictures and some videos that folks can get a sense of actually what the book looks like, what it is, when I was looking through it, and I gave it to my daughter to look at that was actually the first thing that she named was, Oh, look how inclusive it is. And that was, you know, to say right on the cover, you can see folks with different abilities. You see, what I love also is that you use colors that are blues, and reds and greens, because
Effy
no non skin colors. Yeah,
Jacqueline
that was something that was when I was growing up looking at the textbooks, and I was not that color. And that's not what my labia look like. And that's not what my area was like. And to your point, I then internalize, oh, there was something wrong with me, because that's what it's supposed to look like. And there are some gorgeous images of all sorts of rainbow colors of every shape of labia and Ariola and penis and testes. And so, you know, first gratitude to your point around being able to have that kind of representation. Can you talk a little bit about that about where did that come from, for you to say I want to make sure that we show all of it?
Cory Silverberg
Yeah. And actually, I'll start by saying there's one exception, which is blood, because it was amazing to me that so you know, whenever I start a new project that I go and see, I read all the books that are on the topic. And there's there's like probably 20 or 30 books that kind of either include something about menstruation or having your period or bleeding, or books that are just about that. And even I guess I wrote this, I started writing this three or four years ago, whenever it was, none of the books used read, even like the really progressive ones that are like, Yes, we love periods. And, and still it was something that wasn't read to say nothing of kind of the brownish read that. So Fiona Smith, so my, my co author and illustrator, a lot of her earlier work was about menstruation and her body and bodies in general. And because of that she brought extra more to this to that chapter. And we were really clear. And I mean, as you have seen, like, it's amazing, because the the chapter is just full of blood, but in a way that I don't think is scary. And I have to say that I have yet to have any young person. Now the books been out for a few months, say this freaked me out. The thing with the skin colors is actually that's just how Fiona has always done people. So even in her adult art, she really hadn't drawn for young people before. Most of her work is for adolescents, someone who's quite dark and intense a lot of his mess around mental health and getting body image and stuff like that. But she just kind of this, this was this was her mode. And I like it. And I don't know, I really need to ask her what her answer is. So I can just give her answer. But my understanding is that her work is both very real in the world and surreal, like and we want it to be that right? So we want it to be fun and funny. And you know, the approach to sex ed so often is very biomedical, it's very, it's, it's a science lesson, that's fine, because it because it is in parts, that's kind of all we ever get, particularly, you know, to like the the worlds that you guys inhabit and talk about so much like, not many people think about starting a sex ed lesson around how we've structured our relationships, right? It's like, how are babies made? And how does your body develop, what's the bones of it, you know, and your frontal lobe, etcetera, etcetera. And it's like, that's real. But it's actually not the most relevant thing to a child to a young person's life, even though I can see how it's important. But the way that we try to make books is that we're actually trying to center young people's experience. So we're less interested in what adults think kids need to know, and more interested in what kids want to know. So to that point, you know, kids are very obviously, they're incredibly astute observers of the world around them. And so when you have a book that just has everyone that kind of looks the same, and then you have your token, this like, tokenistic like person in a very old fashioned wheelchair, and like one black person, it's not what the world looks like, in most places. And even in a place where maybe people do look more the same young people are noticing the differences. So for us, you know, one of the goals that we set that we kind of gave ourselves or challenges was we wanted the book to look like the world that young people live in. And luckily we both come from Toronto. I mean, Fiona, you know, feeling has been a working artist in Toronto forever. I grew up in Toronto, and Toronto is this very kind of diverse, multicultural city. So it kind of just looks like Toronto. And by making it sort of look like our world, what you find is that that becomes very relatable, right? It doesn't have to be every world. And in fact, when you try to do that, like I read a lot of kids books, you really get a sense of like, oh, they were trying to be diverse, right? And it's a good thing to try. But it doesn't always feel good. It doesn't feel rich, it doesn't feel interesting. Sometimes it just feels like an excellent exercise.
Effy
Yeah. To almost tokenistic, right, you're just gonna take one of everything. And then now you're supposed to have diversity, but that's just not how, like you said, that's not how the world works. Also, I love what you're saying about kids not necessarily being that interested in sex straight away, right? Because I don't see that they really start with relationships, body consent, and then why do you think sex is kind of down the line? But you're right, when we talk about sex ed, for kids, we're like starting from, you know, how you make babies. And that's just not what their their heads that unless they have like a brother or sister, you know, they have a sibling, and they've seen the bump, and they're like, where's the bump? Where did I come from? But until then, they're really more interested in the relating that happens around them. Right. Right. And, and I love that you you've covered that in this book as well. So it's not just in the title is like, you know, sex, but there's a whole section on relationships, including non monogamy. Right? Can you speak to a little bit more about that?
Cory Silverberg
Yeah, well, that was certainly one of the most exciting things for me, like, there were some things that I was like I'm gonna get to do in this book, because the last book was 79 year olds. And I mean, the truth is, whatever 79 year olds also pay attention to relationships, and also live in families, where there's monogamy and non monogamy and polyamory and, and non consensual non monogamy and, and all sorts of things. And kids know about that. So the idea that we don't do it with younger kids, it's not exactly accurate. But nonetheless, the previous book, because it was for younger kids, it also had to be shorter, so I didn't get to do it. I can talk about how families are made, but not really relationship structures. So it was just fun to do, right? I mean, it also helps by the fact that my world is full of people who are non monogamous and less so. But I have some good friends and people in my world who are polyamorous, so. So I've already heard these, you know, I've already had these conversations. And, you know, I've had, I've listened to conversations that people have with their kids who are kind of openly poly or non monogamous. So it actually wasn't so hard. At first, it was like, how am I going to do that? Exactly. And I should say that, that's, that's a chapter that I'm not getting a lot of feedback on, I'm not getting negative. But it isn't, it isn't the first one people talk about with me, which I think of course, we know that a lot of adults have complicated relationships to their relationships. So I think I imagine after the books been out for a year or two, I might start getting, I do get a lot of adults coming to me to talk about what they learned in the book and how it how it helped them. I think this is maybe like kind of one of these edge things where people aren't quite ready to talk about it. But I don't know, I don't know if I'm allowed to ask you questions. But if I am, I'd be curious as to what you thought of it.
Jacqueline
For me. And if he and I were having conversation earlier, the way I would describe this book almost feels like and I'm not sure if this was your intention, but like an encyclopedia, like I can see this as a reference tool, it's on the shelf. And, you know, as my daughter or myself or whomever looking through it to say, Oh, let me learn more about this thing. And what I love about it is that it is included as every other thing. So I want to start from that place. And I want to learn more about menstruation. I want to learn more about you know, breast development, I want to learn more about the I want to learn about relationship structures, and so that that's a resource that I can go to there. And so there's just something straight about, like normalizing I think that that was really helpful.
Effy
And also I think the the variety of structures that were offered to them, right, there's like, you know, there's a humorous side of it with the aliens and, and to kind of say, like, relationships come in all different shapes and sizes. And let me show you all the different like, you can take it to the moon, literally, you can take it to the moon. And it's an I like that it is especially on the relationship side, on the polyamory side, it's showing normal expected conversation, but just in a different construct. Right. So it really I feel like it's it's really normalizing it and saying, Hey, like, here's all the different ways, different ways that adults make up relationships, and it's all okay, and you might see it this way, you might see it this way, and it can go crazy. But ultimately, as long as there's like, communication and understanding, and you know, talking about your needs, and all that kind of stuff. It's all the same, and it's all okay. And I appreciated that.
Cory Silverberg
I'm glad to hear that because that was it was the sort of challenges when you start thinking about who the audience is, of course, we know we have some young people who will have parents who are non monogamous or polyamorous and are, they know about it. And so it's nothing. It's not an unusual thing. It is the way that their families are. And we want those kids to feel that their families can be centered. And also we know that for some kids, it'll be absolutely brand new news, right that there are kids who are depending on the age and where they're growing up, who really have only ever heard of monogamy, and monogamy or cheating. And so sort of how to do that the thing that I was I kind of happiest about and it didn't it came into later draft was realizing that so at the end of every chapter After we have questions, and this is sort of to the point of your podcast, this is, to me is the most important part of the book, which is sort of developing curiosity. So part of the goal for me of sex education is not that people learn information X or Y, but that people's curiosity is ignited. And that they know that it's okay to be curious that curiosity is never bad, right? The way that we need to ask questions in a way that a boundary and respectful but our internal curiosity is something that can guide us. And tell us about who we are right? Because what you're curious about says something about who you are. So I love that at the end of writing that the chapter and then having those questions, I realized that we could just ask the question, when you think about relationships, do you imagine what kind of relationship you would want? Because the thing that was stressing me out a little bit was that because this is for kind of puberty, age kids, it didn't feel it didn't feel a little further ahead of where many of them are. So except for the kids who are learning who get to see their families reflected. So that's very important. I'm happy that my friends who have kids who are polyamorous and non monogamous now have a book where they're in the book that feels very good. For the rest of the kids. I know that many of them are like nine or 10 are not thinking about relationship structures yet, which is partly why so for us, I love what you said about the aliens for us. Part of the reason to do that was to kind of add that element of like, it's, it's in the future. So don't so even like because again, we don't we I never want a kid to think like, Oh, am I supposed to know this? Right? Is this something I'm supposed to be doing? We want to let me clear that, like we're sharing information. And maybe it'll be relevant to you. And maybe it won't, it doesn't need to stress you out. But so this idea that I really love this invitation for kids to imagine the kinds of relationships they want, and again, to the point of like making all relationships structures that are consensual and respectful, giving them equal value. The question is not Do you want to be monogamous or poly polyamorous? Right? The question is, like, what do you want your relationship to look like? And we know this, I mean, I have a lot of teenagers in my life now. And I don't know if you guys do but you know that, like, they're just, they're remaking everything, right? So there's lots of teenagers that describe themselves as polyamorous, right, who are dating and may or may not be having any sex, but dating in all sorts of configurations that is that, uh, wow, them and I'm 52 years old. So for me, it's wild and amazing that they're doing this, and they're doing it differently than we're doing it, which is great. Sure.
Jacqueline
Two things that you mentioned, standout one is, I do think that having to your point around planting the seeds early, whether or not now they're in a place of thinking about how to design their own relationship, but starting to have conversations that build on each other. So that when it is time to have that it is not a brand new concept that blows them away, we've already had the conversation established, that you can love anyone that you can identify as anyone that you can love multiple people that all of those things are possible. And I think that's the other thing that I want to note based on reading the book, and in this conversation is what I appreciated about that chapter. And all of it is it exists without opinion, that everything exists as consider this right, which is, which is a real value for us here is here's an option. Here's another option, your body may look like this, but it may look like that. It just presents itself as this is something that exists that you should know of and you should consider and you should be curious about. But it has no agenda. And I think that generally, at least speaking about non monogamy what we read about it has an agenda on either side. And it's trying to convince someone, you know, one way or another. And so there was just appreciation that this wasn't about convincing. It was just about acknowledging and representing
Cory Silverberg
Yeah, I thank you. I love that. I haven't heard it described that way. But yes, it doesn't, it doesn't have an opinion. And it's interesting to see how people want it right. So not not with this book. But with our very first book, which is called What makes a baby, there's a page that has when it gets to the birth part, it has a vaginal birth and a C section. And that was important because a lot of people have C sections and they have scars. And they don't always have the opportunity to explain what that scar is to a kid. And so it should be in a book. And people got angry because they said you shouldn't make C sections seem equal to natural birth. I'm using quotes, because you know, because this is Aaron section, and there's a problem, etc, etc. And of course, I understand what they're saying. There's some some issues around that for sure. But it was just like, Well, I'm not like I don't have it. Why would I share my opinion about that? You can you know, and I say to adults, like parents like, the thing is you can take this, but because there's no opinion, you absolutely could read this book with your child and tell them some things are wrong, and use it as an example to you know, narrow their options, if that's what you're doing as a parent. There's nothing that says you can't do that.
Effy
Yeah. The other thing I think with especially with the non monogamy piece is that even though kids themselves and their families might be monogamous more and more, they're coming across family, their friends, families aren't their struggle, you know, the basic traditional structure and I think just knowing that those things exist out there I think also allow kids even from the most traditional families to be able to relate to kids with non monogamous families, polyamorous families, blended families are those structural families so it doesn't feel like something is wrong with them, which can you know, I can imagine it stops bullying, it stops All the things that can happen.
Cory Silverberg
It puts it on the table, which is, of course, it shouldn't be. I mean, this is the other thing is part of what the book is just doing is just like making things, like the things that we try to make visible. I just want to make visible. Yeah, we know this, you know this thing around. I mean, I feel like it is starting to shift, but like having been in these worlds for decades, like I've known forever, that so many people are not monogamous. It was like still this this kind of lie about the fact that no, no, no, almost. I mean, maybe I don't know.
Effy
I mean, we were having this conversation around gay families. Yesterday, you know, like this, we've been, you know, this idea of the monogamous heteronormative family has been challenged with the gay marriage and gay families, and, you know, kids with two moms, two dads, two parents, and I think this is just the next chapter of that, you know, it's like, look, there's more to that, you know, the families come in whatever size and it just matters, that they're loving unit that that sticks together and kind of welcomes and celebrates everyone. Anything. This is just like building on that. And we should just keep building on it and expose people expose kids as much as we can, to what they're going to come across in their lives. With that in mind, I'm curious to what are the main differences in the way that we talk to adults about sex and relationships and kids? I
Cory Silverberg
think we do it badly with adults. And we don't do great with kids either. But I think if we try to do it with kids, so the thing is, adults constantly tell me that they're learning stuff from my books. And I think it's because first of all, none of us got the sex education we need or deserve. But also, most adult sex education is. It's okay. It's fine. by that. I mean, like something that's set out like a curriculum or something, right. So your podcast is a form of adult sex education? Yes, it's a lot better than most of the curriculum that's out there. Because it's very first of all the sufferer, adults always assumes that we know something, right. And of course, when you're writing for a young person, I don't make that assumption, I don't make the assumption that a young person knows why we were closed during the day. I think it's perfectly reasonable for a very young person that asked, okay, my books as they do in the second book, Why do we have to wear clothes anyway? Right. And we should start from there. We start around body autonomy from that kind of question. So I would say the big difference. I mean, maybe I'll just say this, I don't for me, there's not a big difference. So the way that I talk to young people, the way that I talk to adults, the difference is kind of maybe the density of information, right? So if you look at the three of our books, the first book is 32 pages. And it's like, I think, 800 words in total. So it's almost like a poem. It's about where babies come from. The next book was like 149 pages, and has a little bit more information. And then this third book is just dense. It's like a graphic novel, there's so much visual information. So it's sort of like how, as people get older, often they have more ways of taking in information. And then when they're younger. So I think there's that,
Jacqueline
just the answer, noting that I think one of the things that I experienced in terms of adult education is it feels like it has an opinion, or it's a means to an end, I'm going to learn about my genitalia, so that I can orgasm or so that I can please my partner or so that I can, as opposed to just to learn to learn to know to know to how to see what the options are available. That I think that's one of the things that as a for children, it is Let us teach them the beat the biology about it. And for adults, let's teach them how they're used their parts to bring them closer in their marriage. And
Cory Silverberg
that is a much better answer than the one I get. Thank you. And so and so but I'll and I'm going to add to it by saying except a lot of education for kids does have an agenda which is be monogamous, be heterosexual and be normal, right? So don't be queer. And so that says like, don't be trans Don't be non binary. So my good friend and colleague Bianca liriano, we, who I work with a lot, she talks a lot about adults and adult supremacy. So this idea that, in fact, adults know what they're doing. And this is the way the world should be. And our role is to teach kids how to become adults like us, which of course, is not a good idea. When you look at what we have done with the world, the planet, with politics, with violence with our relationships, like like, by no measure, are we doing well, including heteronormativity, right? So if you look at the divorce rates, or whatever, you want to look at rates of domestic violence. So I do think that that a lot of sex education does have that kind of agenda. The other thing that I experienced when I'm working with kids, both in the classroom, but also when I'm writing is expansive to space, it just feels like there's a lot of space. So I spent years and years working in like queer sex stores. So that was work with adults. And often I love that work. But often it was, you know, someone was coming in the thing I loved about working in sex stores was that it wasn't so much about there wasn't as much pathologizing so people didn't come in as much and say, like, I have low sexual desire, they would come and say like, I want to be more turned on they would talk about what they want. And so that was really lovely. And usually how had like 15 minutes. And they had an idea as you're saying they have I want an orgasm, or I want to be able to do this to my partner. And when you're starting a conversation with a young person, especially again, when we're talking, you know, our book is right around puberty. So the fact is, the sexual activities we're discussing, are kissing and masturbation really, right, because we're not talking about intercourse, we're not talking about, you know, a lot of other kinds of sexual activities at this age. So it does feel more kind of like there's more space, because it is less goal oriented, I really appreciate that.
Jacqueline
Yeah, I want to pull out something that you were talking about right now to around there's a distinction between preparing children for the world and preparing them to know themselves deeply for a changing world. And that was a shift that I had to make as a parent that so much of what I was doing early in my daughter's life was sit down, be quiet be still be this be that the messaging that I received, which is you need to be these ways in order to be successful in the world. And what I recognized at some point is that the world that I'm preparing her for will not exist when she is older. And so the only thing that I can do as a parent is help her know herself so deeply that she can navigate any world that she is in. Right. So for example, you know, I would love to talk to you a little bit about consent and having that conversation, because that's something that hopefully parents are talking to their children about. But you talk to it from a place about starting with body autonomy, like let's not start from the place of this is what you should say, and this is what's going to happen, because we can't anticipate that. But let's talk about how it feels in your body when a no is it No, or when you're right. And so I'm wondering a little bit about that if you can talk about some of the conversations that parents have with their children that aren't about sex or body parts, but are about relation and about body autonomy?
Cory Silverberg
Yeah, so I mean, I think you know, around consent, the thing is that the big thing is like, we don't start by talking about sex, right? So in our consent chapter, the first of all, we lay this groundwork. So there's a chapter on bodily autonomy. And it's all sorts of stuff about communication and knowing yourself and feeling your body, right. So this is the crux of consent is being able to have a sense of what you actually want, as opposed to what you what you think you're supposed to want, or what someone else told you to want or what's in the in the moment, and then being able to communicate that, and then being able to be present with another person. So you can not only take in the information they're sharing whether they're however, however they communicate, so you can hear them. And however that means but also you're paying attention their body because of course, we all know how to perform right, we know how to perform at the age of four or five. Right? So this is sort of the problem that I'm sure you've come across like this concept of enthusiastic, enthusiastic consent, which is not what I use in my work, both because it's really ableist. Because of course, we all show enthusiasm in different way. And also all of us know how to pretend enthusiasts. So what you're doing is you're tuning into your own body of what you want in your mind in a moment, you're also having to tune into someone else's body and mind and listen, like with your we call it whole body listening. So don't just listen to the words, they're saying, but listen, do you know what this person looks like when they're uncomfortable? or uncertain? In so it's very complicated, right? So unfortunately, so the content isn't simple. So we shouldn't start in sex situation. Because you know, by the time so are, you know, I if the consent chapters, but 20 pages, the first 10 pages have nothing to do with a sexual situation. And then there's a spin the bottle game. And the thing that we add there, of course, is like on top of all of this, imagine feeling sexy, if you, you know, we don't use the word arouse. But for adults, I'd say like, imagine when you're feeling aroused, which is a whole body feeling. It's in our minds or in our bodies? How does that impact our choices? You know, the scene starts with a classroom. And one kid says, you know, Cooper asks me if you can borrow a pen. And she pauses for a second. And then she says, yeah, here's a pen. And the teacher says like, that was just consent, right? Because someone asked, you asked for something you want to needed, you thought about it, you made a decision, and then you acted on that decision. So that's one piece of it is like just looking for the consent in everyday life. Now, the complicated thing for parents is that most of the samples with our younger children are examples of non consent. Right? So they don't get to decide, you know, at the earliest age, they don't get decide whether to wear a diaper or not, or what kind of diaper like we're making that decision. We're deciding what clothes they're going to wear. As they get older, we're deciding if they're going to go to school and where we're also where they're going to live. Right. If we have to move for a job. Most of us don't ask our kids if it's okay with them. And we don't because we can't. So our kids lives are full of nonconsensual experiences. I think the thing that we should do is start naming them. But I think the first thing before thinking like how do I have these complicated conversations, the first thing I would say to parents that I do say to parents is just start pointing out where consent is, where it isn't, and name it and I say that I do that with my kid all the time. I say no, it's not. You're not you don't have a choice here. And that sucks. It's not fair, which is the language that language my kids uses. So you're right about that. And this is the way it is. And of course I also share that as you get older, you're going to have more you know, more access to your body autonomy. You'll have more access to choices, but it's also finding the choice finding power in that constraint. Right? So giving kids I guess you can't decide if you're gonna go to school or not. But, you know, what can you decide, right? And so you know, you know, some parents like, but you know, you can like, basically take mental health days, right? If you need a day off, and I can manage it, then I'm gonna let you do that, because I know that school is not your thing, or whatever the example is, so. So for me, that's, that's actually, you know, the important because the other thing is, you know, in terms of sort of setting our kids up to experience sexual violence and victimization, is we're teaching them to ignore their bodies, right? Particularly in school, like, and I love teachers. And also, I do not like school, as a structure. It's not about the teachers or the people who run the schools necessarily. But you know, what happens in classrooms all the time, is, you know, you have like, 20, or 30 Kids, kids are having feelings, including, like, some kids might just be crying, they're having a hard day, and everyone is told to stay in their seat, right? So you're literally being taught to ignore feelings and people you have a relationship with, whether it's a good one or not, you are connected to them, because you're in this classroom five days a week. And you're also taught to ignore whatever is happening for you like, right so it's like when I see someone who I think is in pain, you know, if you're on the subway classic example, I used to live in New York. So you have this habit, you see someone crying, you're just not sure, like, Should you intrude, you do not intrude, you want to make sure that they know that there's someone is noticing them. It's stressful for me, right. And so, you know, you figure it out, you just always walk around with Kleenex and and so you can offer a Kleenex or when you figure your way out, but but our kids are, are being told not to reach out to other people and also to to ignore those signals to ignore their instincts. And that is not good, right? And then they're teenagers. And the ones who choose to explore sex are exploring sex, and they're not very good at like, feeling good consent. And it's like no surprise, because because we don't give them a lot of opportunity to practice.
Effy
I don't have any kids. So Jackie's got, you know, hands on experience. I just have like, book, no book knowledge. But one of the things that
Cory Silverberg
Well, I'm sure that's not 100%
Effy
I'm surrounded by, yes, you know, I'm different. I'm surrounded by kids. And I do actually I'm like the I'm like the answers to all the threads in it. And they love me, because they get their questions answered, like, I'm the one that comes to because they know they can ask anything, and they'll get an answer. So that I am that person. And one of the things is that I have to explain is that for us as well, for adults to know that a human infant is born 100% dependent with zero boundaries. And then that needs to shift throughout the developmental years, right, we learn, we get to have boundaries, and we get to have them in an age appropriate way, we get to become independent on our way to becoming interdependent. And it's a process, right. And I mean, I actually love your books, I found you through your books, I have a stack of books that I give to all my friends when they have kids. And it's like age appropriate sex ed and relationship and they like just, you know, when the time is right, pull the book, you're gonna have what you need, and your books are in that stack. And I love that you cover you cover the full range of that, you know, because it is a process, you can't dump it all and you can't ignore it, you can't do too much too soon, or leave it too late. And then now you're dealing with a mess and trying to undo a bunch of things. And I think just realizing that it is a process. And I is one of the things that I love about your book that it honors the process.
Cory Silverberg
And it never stops, right. Like the thing I like love about what you guys do and talk about is that it's such a good relationship stuff because adults don't want to always talk and it's not always appropriate to be talking about sex, the topic of sex and sexual activities is not the one that you share in a study with young people. So relationship structure is right. And I think it's such a perfect like, I think, again, one of the lies that I think we tell kids over and over is that adults have it all figured out. Right? And of course we don't, particularly in relationships. So getting to see adults who are talking through How should our relationships be and being open about that I feel like this thing that I was offered as a young person does not work for me. And I can actually do something different. I think it's like it's the modeling that young people deserve.
Jacqueline
In the spirit of of normalizing experiences to as a parent I want to name it can be very uncomfortable to watch your child practice consent, that is the thing you want them to do. But when you are the recipient of the know, that's really challenging. Oh my god. Yeah. So there's there's two examples of things that I started to do with my daughter when she was young one was tickle game. So I would tickle her. And she would say at any point, she would say stop immediately, my hands had to move off of her. And that was a part of the game because then she would be tickled by that and say go and then we need to go again. And she could say stop. And and so that started really early on of I'm going to teach you that when you say no, that means even for me, I stopped touching you. That's what that looks like. And the other was and this was actually much more difficult was not forcing her to hug relatives or to kiss relatives and to be and to give her other options and say, Okay, well you can do high five or you can do virtual and then having conversations with the grownups to say I know that you want to smother them and I know I know. And this is why I'm teaching them that and So they, you know, there were many conversations there. But they're oftentimes now I just want to kiss her and hug her. She says, she said, and she'll say to me, you do not have consent? And I'm like, damn,
Unknown Speaker
like education. I know, I answered, teaching you about boundaries.
Cory Silverberg
Just happened to me last night is so hard, because you sometimes just want to like, like, consume your child, because they're so beautiful to you. And then they say no, and he's like, okay, and I think I also want but let me let me throw in another one, I'd be interested how you deal with this, because this is this is, for me a complicated edge is. So for example, we'll be out together in public just walking down the street, and I'll start singing or I have a song stuck in my head because of them. So I have Kpop stuck in my head. And I started singing it and they say, No, stop. Right. And they were having me sad because they're embarrassed. And there have been times when I don't stop. And then someone has pointed out, well, wait, they said, Stop. So I don't know what to do about that. Because I feel like it's about where consent begins and ends around our bodies, right? So absolutely, it is not right for me just to go up and hug them, even though it's a beautiful thing. And of course, sometimes sometimes it happens. Like, I go to wake them up in the morning, and I wake them up by kissing them on the forehead. I don't say, Can I kiss you on the forehead? I do. And usually they're fine with that. But like you I mean, I really have done that time where it's Can I go and drag them out? And be like, no. But then there's this other these other times, which then is confusing, because they're the one that bring up this if I said no. And I've had that. And I'm still thinking through like, how do I do this? How do I explain to them? Well, this now is different. Because I were out in public and I'm not actually touching you, or making you do anything. What we got to was like, if you don't like this, you can walk ahead. Have you had any of those kinds of moments where you're like, well, the
Jacqueline
things right now, particularly the songs that she's interested, I should know that also be interested. Exactly. That's mildly embarrassing, if I but it's also embarrassing if I'm listening to music that she doesn't listen to, because that's old fashioned music. For me, I think and it is exactly what you're describing. I think each time is different. It's about conversation. I think what was important to me at some point was I wanted to teach her about differentiation and that I too, am an independent person with choices. And sometimes my choices about my body aren't going to be the things that she wants my choices about my relationships, and that will have dialogue about them, but that I am not going to shift what I'm doing all the time to make her feel comfortable. And so there my daughter in particular has sound sensitivity. And so sometimes I'll be singing low and she'll say like the like she'll like tighten up and say like the whispering is bothering me. That makes sense. That's about like, there's something happening in your body there. And I'm going to adjust now, but I'm joyfully singing a song as I'm cooking. And she's embarrassed by that often My case is my statement is just let me be me.
Right, exactly. Because it brings me joy, if it doesn't bring you joy to see me joyful, and there's no compression here. That's okay. Other spaces where you can find joy,
Cory Silverberg
right? Find joy elsewhere. That's great. I really appreciate that other example around around sound sensitivity because that's right, because I did have a moment of like, oh, wait, and I think you know, what I got stuck in there was like this, this very kind of black and white thinking of yet about yes and no, which again, is how consent is often taught. Right? Every no isn't the same kind of No, no, this was and this was a big challenge in our book, because it is a book for you know, 1011 or even eight 910 year olds. You know, there's a lot of concrete thinkers, so you don't want to say I never said something like Well, every No, you know, there's there's many kinds of knows, because it's like that and you know, to your point about adults like that is something you know, I feel a certain responsibility when writing for young people to do a lot of protection around our violence but we know as adults as you just said like so then you know, no, stop singing is I said no, that's not the same as I because I'm embarrassed versus because it's actually hurting my body. So I really actually I'm gonna I'm going to use that and share your example because I think it's very good. It's very concrete. Also, I
Effy
think there is something around the I agree with you the enthusiastic consent is not ideal, right? Because sometimes you're not enthusiastic you are curious and you don't know if you if you want something or not because you've never experienced it right. So at some point you're going to have to try it. So how do you negotiate and maybe how you negotiate Okay, can we bring this down? Like I want to have a go Am I short and enthusiastic? Not really am I curious? How Alia right so how do you how do you allow for curiosity? How do you allow for flexibility? How do you allow for change your mind? How do you allow for experiences that you're not sure but you want to find out about right so it is it gets the binary the enthusiastic yes or hell no dissolves really quickly when you're dealing with real life stuff, especially for youth who just don't know, but they just don't know.
Cory Silverberg
Exactly. It's not the way that the content is taught doesn't work. Like doesn't almost doesn't apply to people who haven't tried things yet, right? So how do you know if you're gonna want to kiss someone? So that's the thing it gets. I mean, it's where we're doing disservice because we're not making it. Real life.
Jacqueline
Yeah. And as a parent again, I think I'm glad. So glad we're talking about this every moment, if you're a conscious parent, there are a forks in the roads everywhere. And Michael, I'm constantly so for the example that that came to mind fe, as you were sharing that is with food. Right? And I don't want to I don't want that, because that's doesn't taste good. And I'm like, Well, you haven't tried it yet. So you don't know whether or not it tastes good. It's like, well, I want the standard, right? I want the I want pizza, or chicken nuggets, or mac and cheese or hamburger, like, give me the standard. I don't want any of that. And in that moment, there's one side of me is saying, Well, her body is telling her what she wants, I need to honor that. The other side of me is saying, well, but it's my job and responsibility to expose her to different things, right, she can't just have ice cream, because that's what her body wants, she needs to have protein. And so like, there's this battle that's happening live. And in that moment, and every time the strategy will change. And so you know, at some point, when she was younger, there was a rule or an invitation that she had to put something in her mouth, try it, chew it a few times, and she could spit it out if she wanted to. But at least try the thing or take the bite of the thing once and then you can make a decision after that, or, or I'm going to cook this meal. If that's not the thing that you want, you're now old enough to prepare your own meal. So this isn't like I made you can go figure something else out. But there is no one answer to it. And you're standing there in the midst of a moment and feel conflict that is normal. And you we're all doing the best we can.
Cory Silverberg
But it's hard to act like I just don't know, I never know what to do. Yeah, we have this like, No, thank you helping. Like you have to have no thank you helping, which is just try it. But that's also such a good example. And of course, it's also happening when we're busy and tired. And so we're not in the best position to be like, How can I maximize this as an educational moment?
Jacqueline
Yeah, we're not talking right now about sex, per se. No, we are talking about yes. All the part of the conversation. It is all the building blocks to that exactly.
Cory Silverberg
Because it is about bodies, right? I mean, that's the thing. It's like, it's very connected. It's like you're she's making a visit, she's telling you something about her body, you are responding. And you're also responding with a bigger context, which is you happen to know, like, so funny with kids, though, because of course, like you may have sense, like, they're gonna love this new food, because it's so salty and salty foods. But of course, if you present it as something they're going to love, then they're probably not going to love it. And so. So it's very complicated. It's also interesting,
Effy
because they all have different reactions to different people, right? Sometimes, you know, I mean, I because like we're saying, I'm the cool adult, that they get to ask questions, and they want to share what they're listening to, and they want to know what I'm doing. And they want to try to things I'm doing. And it could be it's often exactly what their mom is saying. Right? But but because it's coming from me and not mom is suddenly excited and interesting, and all the things and they're much more willing to try. So they totally depends who you're dealing with. Right?
Cory Silverberg
I mean, it speaks to the failure, in my opinion of like, sort of sort of traditional monogamy but also heteronormativity around families like it does not parents are not able to do all of us education. We don't do our kids a service if we think that we're going to be the ones to teach them everything. So my friend and colleague Greg mentioned Bianca loriana, was also child to child free by choice. She's the trusted adult to many kids, including mine. And the stuff that she can do with kids and stuff that you can do with kids is so necessary. It's so different.
Jacqueline
Yeah. Question about age appropriate conversations with kids. And my my personal struggle, I think with that, so Effie has known me for several years and has seen my daughter grow up. And there are times where she has shared with me that I have the ability. My background is in many things, youth development, education being two of them, I can turn anything into a game or story. Right? And so the delivery was age appropriate, but there were times that he was like that content feels a little heavy for an eight year old. I appreciate that. construction paper and dance to go along with it without feels like a lot of context for an eight year old. Right. And so that was an important conversation for me because it helped me partial out the distinction between Can I say it in a way that a child understands? And is this the conversation that I should be having with this child right now? Right? So those are two different things. Right? What what I have heard people say is well wait for wait for children to ask. I think that that that that can be smart. i My My experience is that my daughter is asking questions that she is curious about based on what she's seeing on TV we're hearing not net but more from a place of I heard this word what does this mean? Not I'm ready to understand this concept and how it applies to me. And so like parceling out that is also something that I'm thinking about. And then you know, my strategy has been to try to share things outside of context. Meaning we're not going to sit down now and have the conversation but in some normal outside conversation, I will reference something or plant some seed that I can build on later. But that is something that I that I struggle with is how do I know what is age appropriate? How
do you know when the time is and so I'm interested in your thoughts.
Cory Silverberg
I really like Have you just shattered like eight? Because because the term age appropriate is such a sort of a trigger. It's not trigger thrown word, but it's so like, it's gatekeeping. Right? Because Because Because what like age appropriate, according to who? And for who? Right. And it
Jacqueline
doesn't consider developmental developmental growth Exactly.
Cory Silverberg
Versus so but I just want to say that it's the way that you just shared that was beautiful, because you didn't you didn't go in that direction, you know, because it because I think that what we're taught what you're talking about, like so what's best for your kid or for a kid? I mean, what can I ask you? And you can just say no, it's like, the, the time when the FAA called this, like, what was the topic? Was it was it related to like, like, violence or war? Or was it, you know, relationships or sex or something?
Effy
My guess would be that it would be around relationships, right, with your partner coming into coming into your lives and how to how to approach that, and how much does she need to know? And I imagine it's probably around that conversation more than Yeah,
Cory Silverberg
yeah. I mean, so I guess my, I mean, listen, as you already said, There's no right answer. And I'll also say, because I'd say the second chance I get like the last thing, parents need to be told they're doing it wrong. So I don't think anyone were doing their best. And I personally err more on the side of view, Jacqueline, in that, in that I think that kids are treated like they're such idiots, by so many adults, that, that for those of us who are the other things, it's a skill, right. So it's a skill to be able to explain capitalism to an eight year old, or for that matter, non monogamy or polyamory, or desire, or hate, or I mean, or war, and all of these things, they are very complicated stuff. And for adults that aren't comfortable doing it, or don't quite know how I don't think we need to, though, you know, but those of us who can turn anything into a construction paper project, I think you go go there, because the other let me say this, which is something I learned from a children's librarian, kids are their own best sensors. And she was talking about books, in that if a kid picks up a book, and it's too much for them, or it's over their head, they just put it down. They don't, they don't try to get a band and they don't get offended, they just stop reading it. And with my books, it's so clearly it's so clear to me, because I have so I have an eight year old and you know, so they have friends on it. But I have kids in my life of all different ages. And I've seen this over and over, where a parent will say like, let's sit down and read Corys second book, which is sort of a seven to nine year olds, and the kid is bored and not interested. And six months later, they can't put it down, because they're just in a different place six months later. So I do want to say that, like if you're paying attention to your data, you already don't use the term engaged parenting. But anyway, obviously, you're an engaged parent. If you're paying attention to your kid, they're gonna let you know, on some level if like, Okay, I mean, often what happens with parents like you and like me who want to want to do this? They're like, Okay, that's enough. I've heard enough. Because I
Jacqueline
just I'm like, I just listened to a podcast, and I learned this thing. Now everyone around me must also learn.
Cory Silverberg
Right? Yes, exactly. But you know, and the truth is that, like, our friends might not be honest with us, our friends might sit with us for another 20 minutes and let you go on. But you know, your kid is not going to do that. So they're getting something from it. And also, it's very possible that they're totally tuned out. And so they're not being harmed by it. For me, I'll just shove it. So I don't have an answer here. But I'll share like my struggle is it's about it is about kind of like how much I should expect my kid to show up for kind of processing in a way like, like, when I don't have an agenda, when it isn't about like, okay, you know, we are going to visit, like to visit family. And let's talk about how we're going to deal with grandparents who want to hug and kiss you. And we support you and making your choice. So that's that's like a that's like a sit down thing. We're gonna decide this this. But when it's not that, and it's more like, there's something that I'm wondering about, or I'm curious about. And I do wonder like to sort of speak to what like Effie was sharing with you like, maybe it's just too much for them. Because the thing is, we also know that our kids don't, you know, our kids take stuff on, right? The kids take responsibility for us in ways that we know is not good, but it's almost inevitable. I've never seen a family dynamic where that doesn't happen, right? Where the kid had some sense that their parents mood, etc, is it's dependent on them. So we know that kids can take stuff on and not share with us the burden of that. And the other thing is, I think that we can also go back to our kids, like if like, you know, go back the next day and say, like, how did that feel? I don't feel like too much. And like and like give them a bunch of I mean, your kids a bit older, like, you know, for younger kids that give them some options about like that feel boring or weird? Or are you tired of me bringing stuff to you? And also like, what do you like, I have to ask my thing, because I'm so overly enthusiastic about things about learning. Like I tell them like so tell me what what do you how can you slow me like if I want to talk to you about something you're not interested? Because the thing the other thing that happens is sometimes my feelings get hurt, right? Which I don't tell them, but it happens. And so I'm trying to like, you know, they don't want to learn about this. Yeah, I
Jacqueline
took all this time to create this construction paper saying you don't want to learn about
Cory Silverberg
liberals, but I think but I also just think the thing I'll say You know, that I found with our book is I have never seen a kid be really harmed by a conversation. Right? So I think that kids can be harmed by images they see basically photographs more than kind of drawings and things they hear, you know, and things they witness, but I'm not really sure it's harmful. I think it might I mean, I guess is, you know, it's also the I can see it'd be questions like, how anxious is your kid, right? So many of our kids are more anxious than they were before the pandemic. And so for people who have I was just doing this talk for parents, and one of the parents asked this question, and then their second part was like, and how do I deal with that with a severely anxious kid and I have a lot of anxiety like, the melted me. But yeah, so that's feelings, you have a sense of like, how much your kid can handle?
Effy
Also, I think me changes from kid to kid, right, Jackie's kid is very vocal. And even I think when one term shocked, right, how did that happen? And I think she, she's not that some, you know, she's not afraid to say the unpleasant thing. You know, like, she cheated me, she did look at your book. So Jackie did give you a book, and she did have a look. And she said, yeah, some parts of it made me feel awkward. You know, she was like, I don't, I'm not ready to look at genitalia. And she was able to sort of say, that part isn't for me, right? And I think there's a kid who can do that. And there's a kid who can't do that, right. And I think you just need to know your kid and Know thyself, and know your kid, I guess. Right? So we
Jacqueline
have gotten to know ourselves better through your book and are interested in getting to know you better with some four with four questions that we have to end our conversation. Okay. Yeah. And we asked this first question to everyone. But frankly, I think that you were the best person to ask this question, which is, what is one piece of advice that you would give to your younger self about love sex relationships?
Cory Silverberg
So I think the advice would be like, would be to know that you can have intimacy without sex, and you can have sex without intimacy. I think even though I was raised by text therapist with a lot of this, I did not know that and many years of my adult, like early adult life, many men in my 20s in my life would have been different and a lot better if I had understood that
Effy
beautifully. I love that. That's so good. That's so good. Okay, what is one romantic or sexual adventure on your bucket list?
Cory Silverberg
Yeah, I don't have I don't have. I mean, what luck is my bucket list would be like, all my friends have housing. And we get to live near each other as we're when when we're when we're when we're when we're near the end of our lives. That's.
Effy
Yeah, that's amazing. Love.
Jacqueline
This, it feels self evident. But I'll ask the question anyway, how do you challenge the status quo?
Cory Silverberg
You know, difficulty? I will say, right, even though it's my job, it still feels like I still feel uncomfortable when I know that some people don't like what I do. So how do I do and I do it, I guess my experience, I do it by just trying to be as much of myself as I can. Right. So to actually be honest, right, which is always hard, because I know that I'm weird that I'm queer. And that's just another way of saying I'm weird. And so sharing the ways that we're weird is really helpful, as it turns out, because it helps other people, you know, talking about how they're weird
Jacqueline
answers that I've heard. So that that's, that's great.
Effy
That's funny. Last but not least, we are a curious bunch around here. And we are curious about what you're curious about lately.
Cory Silverberg
I am curious about where human people fit into the incredible kind of divisiveness in I guess the United States. Right now, I'm living in Canada, but it's all North America, you know, people are so mean to each other and are being so violent to each other. And so we know that there are people who are violent and and also, we know that lots and lots of people are not right. And yet they're making choices like including here. This is not actually but to be very clear. It's not like only bad things happening United States. People make choices to who they vote for, and the kinds of language they use. And I guess I am genuinely curious about like, what so I guess I'm just curious about that, in that, like, it's hard for me to imagine it's not hard for me to imagine a small group of white supremacists making a lot of noise, like so I know that that's how bookbinding works, that it isn't the majority of people are parents, but then you can because it's so overwhelming, you can start started thinking like, Oh my God, there's so many people who are just being so hurtful and wanting to control other people. And so I guess Yeah, I mean, I have curiosity, but that I guess I have, you know, curiosity, but like, how, how do we get somewhere else? Right? How do we move towards liberation? And maybe the answer is just like, there's gonna be like, thinking that things are gonna keep getting worse and worse, and then it'll get better. But yeah, so I guess I have a lot of friends who are abolitionists who are teaching me. And so I'm, I have this and because I'm queer, like I have a real interest in imagining a different future. And I am curious about how we get there, right. I think I do partly with my age, like, I'm 52. So I don't have that, you know, I have, hopefully some years left, but it's not like I'm 20. So yeah, I'm curious about that. And then, you know, the other thing I'm gonna say is I'm actually now just very curious about both view. And I'm going to share that because having spoken about I do a lot of interviews, which I don't like mostly because it's just people asking me questions, and I'm genuinely very curious about people. And you know, so I got to be on fresh air with this host who was she was amazing. It wasn't the regular host. And she was great. And she was very, like, warm and generous with her questions. But it was like, she was all business as she should be. It's like this national show. So then you just get off and it's like, I don't know anything about her. And it's also not appropriate. Like, I'm not going to email her until now. Can I ask you questions? Because like, it's her job. So anyway, so because you asked, I'm just gonna say like, this is this is the problem with these things. Because like, I have 100 questions for both of you, but, but it's now live and you know, it's time so.
Effy
Welcome. Please come back. Yeah,
Jacqueline
right. And also official invitation to have conversation that is not recorded.
Dialogue, this has been such a fantastic conversation. It's been fun for you. Yeah, really, really, really enjoy you.
If you want to learn more about Cory Silverberg, visit their website, Cory silva.com, or find them on Instagram and Twitter at Cory Silverberg. If you want to tell us about the awkward sex talk that you got as a kid, want to share resources that you've used with your children or just want to connect with other foxy listeners, Head to facebook and join our Facebook group at we are curious foxes. Our beautiful website is filled with reading lists, blog posts, and past episodes that can help you indulge your adult curiosity about love, sex and relationships. Visit us at We are curious foxes.com to support the show and continue to indulge your curiosity. Join us on Patreon at we're curious boxes, where you can find many episodes, podcasts extras that couldn't make it to the show, and over 50 videos from educator led workshops. If you find our episodes interesting, funny or helpful, please share our podcast with a friend quickly rate the show leave a comment subscribe on Apple podcast or follow us on Spotify or Stitcher is only going to take a few seconds of your time, but it's going to have a big impact for us. And let us know that you're listening by sharing a comment story or question. You can email us or send us a voice memo to listening at we are curious foxes.com Or you can record a question for the show by calling us at 646-450-9079.
Effy
This episode is produced by Effy Blue and Jacqueline Muslim with help from Yağmur Erkişi. Our editor is Nina Pollack, who magically transforms the awkward into awesome every episode. Our intro music is composed by dev Saha. We are so grateful for that work, and we are grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends. Full start to full start. Okay, Alex. Good morning that exists. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic. We solely aim to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we'll look forward to your feedback.
(outro)
Stay curious friends. Stay curious, curious, curious, curious. Stay curious.
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