Ep 137: Legal Rights for Non-Nuclear Families and Same-Sex Couples with Diana Adams

Illustration by the talented @morelaaand

Why does the overturning of Roe v Wade impact same-sex marriage in the U.S.? What can same-sex couples, non-married couples, polyamorous families, triads/quads, and platonic co-parents do to protect their rights? What can we do, on a system-wide level, to protect and expand the rights of all non-nuclear families and non-traditional relationship constructs?

In this episode, Effy and Jacqueline speak with LGBTQ rights lawyer and advocate, Diana Adams, about the very real concerns non-traditional individuals and families should have about their rights within the United States. They discuss strategies that individuals, families, and communities can take to protect their rights outside of the marriage construct and explore how we arrived here, as a nation, and what we can do to create a different and more inclusive future.

More about Diana
Diana Adams, Esq. founded both the Chosen Family Law Center, Inc. non-profit legal services organization and their own boutique LGBTQ family law and mediation firm Diana Adams Law & Mediation, PLLC, both based in New York City.  Both organizations serve primarily same-sex couples and non-nuclear families. Diana is passionately dedicated to helping form healthy, stable families, whether between same-sex couples, platonic co-parents, polyamorous families, or different-sex couples, by facilitating conversations that support the creation of clear personal agreements, as well as solid legal agreements to protect their families. Diana is a leader in the legal support of LGBTQ families and proud to be one of the New York State representatives for the selective national organization of leaders on LGBTQ family law, the LBGT Family Law Institute of The National LGBT Bar Association.

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TRANSCRIPT:

(intro)

Hello, hi. Hi. Hi. Hello. I'm curious about curious about I'm curious about cute is about building open, authentic, loving relationship? I'm curious about jealousy. I'm curious about polyamory just mean that you're fucking all the time. How can I tell my parents that my partner is already married and curious about how do you know when you're too busy to have another relationship? I'm curious about dominant and subordinate relationship. I'm curious about sexual health. How can relationships evolve with people as they grow and change?

Diana Adams

The issues of abortion also affect sexually active men, for example, who want also want sexual freedom for themselves and their partners?

Effy

Welcome to the curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo and love, sex and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.

Jacqueline

And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today we're talking about the very real risk to gay marriage. The fact that non monogamy is not protected under the law and the steps that we can take to protect our rights.

Effy

On June 24 2022, the US Supreme Court overturned Roe v Wade, which affirmed the constitutional right to abortion, in addition to stripping away bodily autonomy from those who can get pregnant, it also threatened other US rights, such as the right to contraception and the rights for same sex couples to marry. Let's take a

Jacqueline

few minutes to connect the dots between the decision to overturn Roe v. Wade, and gay marriage. So, in 1973, the US Supreme Court ruled that the Constitution of the United States conferred the right to have an abortion. There are two constitutional provisions that the court relied on to rule in Roe v. Wade, the Ninth Amendment and the 14th Amendment. The Ninth Amendment was a part of the Bill of Rights that was added to the US Constitution in 1791. The amendment says that unenumerated rights are those protected under the Constitution, even if it's not explicitly mentioned in the document, that means that the rights of people are not limited just to the rights that are listed in the Constitution?

Effy

Essentially, the default is that we have all the rights unless we're told we don't have the right rather than the other way around, which would be that we only have the rights that the Constitution tells us we do.

Jacqueline

The 14th Amendment of the Constitution was ratified in 1868. And amongst other things, guaranteed all citizens equal protection under the laws. In addition, one of the clauses in the amendment. The Due Process Clause prohibits state and local governments from depriving people of life, liberty or property without fair procedure, which has since been used to uphold a citizens right to privacy.

Effy

So if one US citizen gets a right, then every US citizen gets the same right, regardless of who they are.

Jacqueline

There are four other cases that also relied on the ninth and 14th amendments. First Griswold v. Connecticut in 1965, which bars states from interfering with married couples right to buy and use contraceptives. So

Effy

the ninth and the 14th are Cambodia. The ninth argues that just because married couples have the right to buy contraception. That doesn't mean unmarried couples don't have the right. And under the 14th. It was argued that in fact, because married couples get the right now we all get the right.

Jacqueline

The second case to use the ninth and 14th amendments were loving V Virginia in 1967, which legalized interracial marriage,

Effy

just like the previous case, the ninth same sex couples have the right to marry. But that does not mean only they get to marry. And the 14th says same race couples get to bury so we all get to marry. The third case

Jacqueline

was Lawrence v. Texas in 2003, which struck down sodomy laws criminalizing same sex intimacy, and fourth was Obergefell. V Hodgins in 2015, which legalized gay marriage.

Effy

You know what I'm going to say? Just because one group gets it, it doesn't mean the other doesn't. And because they get it, we all get it. You get it.

Jacqueline

The willingness of the Court to overturn the precedent set by Roe v. Wade means that they can also overturn the other four cases that utilize the ninth and 14th amendments. In fact, Supreme Court Associate Justice Clarence Thomas wrote that he believes that the court should reconsider three of the four other landmark cases. Interestingly, the fourth ruling that Justice Thomas did not include is the ruling on interracial marriage, which I imagine is the case because his white wife might have something to say about that. So the ruling that applies to him is fine, but the ones that do not should be overturned. And finally, this means that federal protection of rights previously ruled as protected by the ninth and 14th amendments could instead be rolled back, leaving it to individual states to decide on behalf of those who live in that state. This

Effy

opens the door to introduce or I guess, reintroduce unfortunately, the district donation segregation and inequality that is happening in our society in the name of religion into law.

Jacqueline

To dig into all of this and discuss concrete steps that we can take to protect our rights. We knew exactly who to reach out to.

Diana Adams

I'm Diana Adams and I am a lawyer and activist for LGBTQ and non nuclear families. I started a law firm in 2007 in New York supporting those kinds of families and now I also have a nonprofit for low income families and legislative advocacy chosen Family Law Center.

Jacqueline

Diana spoken her annual conference consider this and facilitate a workshop for us on how to set up your non traditional family for success, which is available to Patreon members via our Patreon page. In addition to the chosen Family Law Center, Diana has a boutique LGBTQ family law and mediation firm which my wife and I actually used when we were getting married. Both organizations serve primarily same sex couples and non nucleolar families as Diana is dedicated to supporting same sex couples, platonic co parents, polyamorous families and different sex couples. Dan is a leader in the legal support of LGBTQ families, and is one of New York State Representatives for the LGBT Family Law Institute of the national LGBT Bar Association.

Effy

Diana is always hard at work. So we started with asking her to catch us up on what she's been up to recently.

Diana Adams

I've had a really exciting year, my TED talk on non nuclear families came out early winter. And I think that that was a really incredible opportunity to bring my ideas to an even broader platform, and really brought together the linkages between what single people have in common with polyamorous people and same sex couples in that we're all doing something different than heterosexual monogamous marriage, and that we need to be aware that we're allies in trying to support each other's rights beyond marriage and creating family beyond marriage. And so as part of doing that TED Talk, that meant that I also had to have a really rigorous the fact check set of data. And now I have that data in my head. And I think also people recognize that when you're giving a TED talk that you really have to be really fact checked in what you're saying. And that has really, I think, helped these ideas to get even more respect. And part of that has been going to present to the Biden administration about LGBTQ public health, and particularly, I am a bisexual person, by which I mean that in a trans inclusive way, to mean basically the same as pansexual. But whichever term people prefer, and the half of that community, the bisexual pansexual community is actually the largest chunk of the LGBTQ community, even though many of us by folks and pan folks don't feel like we should be have the right to take up any space in LGBTQ spaces. There's also a misconception about bisexual pansexual people that we have an easier than gay and lesbian people. So maybe we shouldn't speak at meetings, maybe we shouldn't be in leadership, maybe we should don't deserve to be here. And actually, although there are some tremendous ways that we have privilege, you know, I am a partner to a sis man. And that means although I'm gender non binary, I can pass as femme when I need to. And so I have been able to travel to places in the world, that would not be safe for me if I was in a same sex couple, or if I was more visibly trans. And I recognize that as a privilege. At the same time, it's useful to note that bisexual pansexual people have the worst public health outcomes right behind trans people in our community, much worse, and gay and lesbian folks are much more likely to experience family rejection, much more likely to experience domestic violence, which sometimes is breaking up with a man for a woman. And then the man goes after his ex girlfriend for that being rejected by family, maybe because, you know, if you're gay or lesbian, it's like, well, you can't help it. But if you're bi, you're just doing this to, you know, break your mother's heart or something. So anyway, there's lots and lots of issues in bisexual public health. And I'm really passionate about that, and was able to go for celebrate bisexuality week to present to the right administration about some of those public health disparate outcomes. The ways that the MPV vaccine, formerly called monkeypox should have been rolled out differently to include women who are partnered to buy men because the vast majority of men who have sex with men also have sex with women. And so when we make when we say, this is where this is where it's spreading, and it spreads through semen and mucous membranes, and we only make it eligible for men, we're not realizing the demographic reality of the way people are living. And I think that's really important that we actually think about the fact that we don't necessarily fit into neat binaries. There are lots and lots of people who are in family configurations that are more diverse than nuclear, and also many people who are bisexual or pansexual, who aren't fitting into our our images of what we think of as LGBTQ people. So I've been passionate about that and advocating for that kind of public health policy and bringing home some of that work with the Department of Health and Human Services with my nonprofit chosen Family Law Center in New York, to for example, create resources to welcome LGBTQ refugees who are coming from the southern border, as well as coordinate with the New York City Public Health Department about ways that they could be more inclusive for the reality of LGBTQ populations, so I'm really passionate about doing that kind of work, and also have been really involved in expanding the nonprofit chosen Family Law Center. And we take clients throughout New York State who are low income, LGBTQ, and polyamorous people and people doing platonic co parenting. And we're the only place where you could get for free, a polyamorous co parenting agreement, or polyamorous cohabitation agreement about how you want to share your finances. That's just a document, but a facilitated discussion and process by a trained mediator and services that support not just same sex couples, but the whole range of other kinds of ways people are creating family beyond a romantic pairing of two. So we do platonic co parenting agreements, we do sperm donor agreements, and help really navigate what that will look like, as well as supporting low income trans people and asylees, who are getting a green card on the basis of LGBTQ persecution. So that's the kind of work that we're doing with chosen Family Law Center. And now, we're also expanding some of our legislative work, we've been doing multi partner domestic partnerships, which have passed in three cities in Massachusetts. So now for the first time in the US, you can actually get a domestic partnership with more than one person, you can actually even be married to one person and domestic partners with a different person and the V triad. And that's the first time you've been able to do that, and then be able to come home and maybe say, my husband does not need my health insurance, but my girlfriend does. And you don't have to have residency so you can come from someplace else in the US, and also just have that as something that stabilizes polyamorous relationships. So we're excited about that. And now we are hoping to pass that in more places, we're looking at places like Seattle, and the Bay Area and also trying to pass non discrimination protections both within corporations for their employees, but also at a city level, so that somebody couldn't be denied housing or discriminated against in employment, or have it used against them in other ways that they may be polyamorous or in other kinds of non nuclear family structures.

Jacqueline

Because folks may not know that that polyamory is not a protected class. polyamory is

Diana Adams

not a protected class. And that's something that's been really challenging and sad for me. For the past 15 years that I've had my firm doing advocacy work and legal work for polyamorous families, people will call me regularly, once a month for 15 years and say, I can't believe it. But I just was told that I can't. I marched in the this really happened I'm somebody marched in the polyamory contingent of the New York City Pride Parade, live in New York City as a queer person with a tremendous amount of privilege working for a big corporation making a great salary. And were brought into HR the Monday after pride because their picture was in the paper for being in the polyamory section of the parade. And we're told don't ever do that, again, take down any other profiles that mentioned the you're polyamorous. And they call me and say they can't do that. Right? They can, because being in a polyamorous relationship, or any kind of other relationship structure is not a protected class. And so that's also something that's really important for us to realize. And this kind of thing happens all the time. Another person was told they were a professor. And after class, we're playing a song on guitar, and the music class that they were teaching to college students. And the song was about polyamory and a very tame non sexual way. And one of the students reported that she felt uncomfortable and harassed because he mentioned that he was polyamorous in a song and reprimanded. Other people have been, you know, had their jobs transferred, just because they had a picture of two partners on their desk. And that family picture made somebody uncomfortable, right. So these things are happening all the time. And people don't realize even people who have a lot of privilege, even people who live in leftist Blue Dot cities, we need to recognize that and it's time that we actually change that.

Jacqueline

Yeah. So what is the status of legally recognizing non traditional family structures within the United States and abroad,

Diana Adams

I just moved back from Germany and was quite involved with helping coordinate LGBTQ lawyers across Europe. And at this point, as alarming as is to say, LGBTQ people have some of the most expansive rights here as they do anywhere else in the world. And we have one of the most developed polyamorous communities as well as movements for same sex couples and for trans people. And while it may feel really under fire in the US in it is just imagine that it's worse just about everywhere else, which is horrifying. So I'd say that this movement is much further along in the US in terms of family recognition. And that's partly because we don't really have a social welfare state to speak of. And in places like Europe, families haven't had to push same sex couples haven't pushed us hard for same sex marriage, because there was not thought of as essential as a way to get health insurance, for example, or tax benefits. That was one of the biggest pushes behind the same sex marriage movement was actually making sure that people weren't missing out on all these tremendous benefits that you get from marriage because we really privatized dependency within marriage and have all these incentives to get married. That does not necessarily exist in Europe, or in Scandinavia where you know, if you get if a woman gets pregnant, she doesn't have to chase the man for child support, because the state will support her if she needs support as a mother because we value that and but there isn't as much of an emphasis on finding a partner. So for many of those reasons and other cultural reasons, the movement for same sex marriage was much, much more intensive and earlier than in Europe, and had been much more of a fight that also I think, was tied into seeing the beauty of these of the gay community with the horrible AIDS crisis. And just how much you know, humanity was revealed and how so many people were outed by having to come out and explain that they had AIDS. And so people realize we all know somebody who is LGBTQ we all know somebody that's gay, we this is this is an all of our communities. This is people that we love. And so that really propelled the movement forward and then combined with the need for the legal rights of marriage. So at this point in the US, it's unfortunate because while we're taking giant steps forward toward multi partner recognition at City levels, for example, within Massachusetts, and potentially in other progressive cities, we're moving toward the recognition of polyamorous triads and quads. And also, with domestic partnership, I think it's a really powerful state registration, because it doesn't come with everything that marriage comes with. And I think that's a good thing, because marriage is a Christian sacrament. And I think we really need to get away from having our legal designation, mean something that is spiritual and religious for certain people. Because domestic partnership doesn't have that meaning. And it is much more flexible and open, it does not necessarily mean that you're in love. It doesn't mean that you're lovers domestic partnership, when it first passed for same sex couples was thought of as okay for savings couples that can't get married. And many, many cities around the country drafted basic laws about it, that may have been really broad. And what they were surprised by was that it wasn't just same sex couples registering, it was also to single moms who are best friends. Sometimes it was two sisters, where I want to get my sister on my health insurance, because she's my family person. Sometimes it was best friends who were doing platonic co parenting, it could be me and my long term girlfriend who are co parenting are living together, and are not creating our relationship based on romance. But based on long term friendship and maybe co parenting or sharing finances. There was elderly widows who were in a Golden Girls configuration that wanted to come register together. So domestic partnership had a lot of creativity, and a lot of openness for just what kind of diverse beautiful families are out there. And I think that helped us realize, in the family policy world, there were a lot of other people that would like to be registered as, as legal, special people to each other, that were not necessarily romantic partners. And so I think we need to keep that creativity, and that expansiveness with domestic partnership that doesn't have all of these other romantic meanings. And so that's also something powerful as we see this movement, not just for multi partner domestic partnerships, but the domestic partnership laws that we're writing could also be for two people who are platonic, or it could be for three best friends were all living together, it could be for, you know, you get divorced, you know, or you have a co parent. And then you have another romantic partner, but you still want your co parent or your ex to be on your health insurance, or you're still sharing a child together. So it makes sense to have all of your family lives combined. So there's a lot of creativity there. So we're seeing a push forward in these progressive cities with these multi partner domestic partnerships, and what greater recognition of family structures including polyamory and non nuclear families, while at the same time having this terrible step backward, and a lot of places where we're at risk of losing same sex marriage.

Effy

So following the overruling of Roe v. Wade, in the US, there is talk of the Supreme Court challenging same sex marriages, how likely is that? And if likely, what are the signs to look for? And what can we do to protect this privilege?

Diana Adams

Where we're at with that right now, is that in the Dobbs decision, where we were overruling Roe v. Wade, unfortunately, what the Supreme Court that was also questioning the the fundamental footing that Roe v Wade was standing on was about this idea of substantive due process, which is really the right to our freedom and bodily autonomy, and was kind of extended in a really beautiful philosophical way from due process, but was not necessarily articulated specifically in the Constitution. And there was a whole line of cases that had that kind of thinking that also related to Griswold v. Connecticut, which was about your right to make decisions about birth control, which is really essential for women's reproductive freedom and health and everyone's reproductive freedom and health. And then also cases related to same sex marriage that also came into this right to privacy, right to privacy and bodily autonomy. We're sort of all netted in with this substantive due process ideas. So with that, that means that's the underpinning of our same sex marriage laws. And we really might lose same sex marriage in the US. But what that means right now there is a there is a bit Bill, that's the Respect for Marriage Act. And what that would do. It's not an exciting, expensive bill. But there's a push right now, while we have democratic control of the Senate, thank God, I've cried about that this weekend, I'm so relieved, that would be basically to fully overrule the Defense of Marriage Act. So we're not just relying on the Supreme Court. Because what happened was that the case, Edie Windsor, had this Supreme Court case in which she had her, her wife had died. And she was married and living in New York City and had this beautiful long relationship. And they were an affluent couple, she was going to get a tremendous amount of funds from her wife at the time of death, if they're legally married, that is a tax free transfer, because they weren't it was going to be over $300,000 in federal taxes. So this case was about how that's just fundamentally unfair for the federal government to do that. So that was a case saying that the federal government has to recognize state marriages. So New York state recognizes her marriage, the federal government doesn't. So that was causing this big tax burden on her. So basically, that overruled a section that that case took away part of the Defense of Marriage Act, which was the federal bill that was saying that the basically the federal government doesn't have to respect state same sex marriages. So if Windsor gets removed, that defensive Marriage Act could come back. So the Respect for Marriage Act is something that's a very simple bill, it doesn't have everything in it that we would want. But it's one that may be able to pass with bipartisan support and pass more quickly than some other more expensive bills like the Equality Act that we really want, ultimately, but the Respect for Marriage Act would just fully overrule the Defense of Marriage Act. So that that would mean two things, it would mean that the federal government has to respect state, same sex marriages, no matter what they're doing court does. And then number two, that states have to recognize each other's same sex marriages. So it is quite possible that if our extremist Supreme Court overrules even more precedent and takes away same sex marriage rights federally, that at least we would then have the ability to, for example, if you can't get married in Texas, you could go to California or New York and get married and your state come home, and your state would have to respect that other states marriage, and also your federal government would have to respect your marriage. So for people that live in blue states, their marriage is going to be absolutely fine. We think that existing marriages are not going to get undone, that can't really undo a marriage once you've made that legal legal contract. So it would just be for future same sex marriages, we might have to go to a different state. So that's a terrible situation to be in. It is fundamentally disrespectful to people's humanity, to allow this to be happening and to pretend that religious freedom is a way to overrule people's rights to create family the way they want to. And I'm angry also, because I grew up Christian. And there's nothing from the teachings of Jesus that would convey this. That's right. I mean, it is not Christianity to me, and I will fight anyone on that. And so I'm just outraged that this is happening. But that is a reality. We all need to know. I think all of us who are doing anything other than monogamous, heterosexual marriage need to be especially following this, even if we're not interested in getting into a same sex marriage. This relates to all our freedoms, we all need to be engaged in this, even the straight married couples, I think we all benefit if we want freedom to our bodily autonomy. This is how this can get chipped away. So we need to all be pushing for this Respect for Marriage Act, which Chuck Schumer's just proposing this week. So as the podcast comes out a week later, this is something that's going to be a present topic that may be getting passed, and then the next level we really want, but that may take longer to get passed as the Equality Act. And what that would do is it would encode LGBTQ rights within federal civil rights act. So once again, this has meaning that if we lost the employment discrimination, same sex marriage cases got overruled in the Supreme Court, then basically, we would still be able to have that enshrined in the Civil Rights Act and have robust protections because of that. So we're basically trying to replicate what the Supreme Court did with legislation. And one thing I will say and appreciation of the Biden administration is that having been at the Capitol and having presented to federal officials who are working on civil rights issues, it may not seem from the outside, in the ways that President Biden is can be very seeming sort of neutral and trying to get along with everybody and bring people together. Within the administration. There is a lot of robust effort to try to enshrine as many civil rights laws as possible in case we get a Republican future president that might have been like Trump, and I was really impressed with how intensively they're taking that internally and how there are people working around the clock right now who are working on that and trying to make sure as they told me when I was at the Capitol, that it's not possible to overrule civil rights with the flip of a switch by just overturning a case of the Supreme Court or over undoing one law. You know, we don't strike down one law or have one case and how people's civil rights go away for women and LGBTQ people, we're going to enshrine that in every single piece of legislation that we can. So that you know, if states want federal funding at all is related to following the Civil Rights Act laws and have much robust protection for women and LGBTQ people as possible. So I was really impressed with that. And I actually give appreciation for President Biden and as well as what people are doing that I think you can't always see day to day, I actually feel like I see that there's a lot of preparation for what I think we need to be really aware of. I mean, what's happening right now in Iran is absolutely horrific. Living in Germany, I was around, I was around people who talked about their experience, women in their late 40s have the experience of being a nine year old girl in a bikini, older sisters in med school, this is when my friends in Germany, and then within a few years, these rights are getting chipped away, and women can't go to school anymore. And now we have to cover up and now women can have bank accounts anymore. And now we're in a situation where Iran is talking about, you know, doing a mass arrest of 14,000 women who are protesting, and that to make sure they don't get into heaven, that they should be raped before their bleed to death. That's what we're talking about in Iran. And that's a place that had a revolution, that was basically a fascist takeover. And having lived in Germany, that also Germany also experienced a fascist takeover, it was less than 20% of people were actually supporting the Nazi party. This was a minority radical group that took over in Germany as well. And so I think a lot of people who have experienced that all move to Germany. And so I think, living there and having a more international perspective, I think that sometimes Americans can get overly complacent that something like that could never happen in the US. And it could, and there's been an attempt to have a Christian fascist state takeover. And that's something that I can say, on public radio in Germany, and everyone's like, Oh, yeah, obviously. But when I do policy, common commentating work for a mainstream media in the US, they're like, maybe don't say, Christian fascist takeover. And I'm like, that's what it is. But okay, you know, people aren't ready to hear that, that's too radical. But I think that's the reality. And we need to recognize that we all need to be working together, to keep our democratic norms to make sure that all rights of minorities, of all kinds are being respected, because they may come for them now, and they're coming for you next. And particularly when it comes to family policy, I think we need to make sure that we realize that the rights of single women to be single not be treated differently, because they're childless, that when people don't get family benefits, because they're single, nearly 40% of American adults don't live with a romantic partner. And so all of those people are also not getting any of those benefits of marriage, they may not have anybody they can share their health insurance with or could share it with them. And when we set everything up based on a nuclear family, a lot of us lose out.

Effy

You're absolutely right, we do agree that we need to fight for those rights, regardless of who you are. And you might be in the most traditional setup for yourself for now. But you don't know how things are gonna, gonna turn out. And we should all stick together and fight for all this all this stuff for just the quality of human life. So how can we advocate for same sex marriages on a system level?

Diana Adams

I think number one, is following along with legislation. I'm somebody who posts really frequently in my nonprofit chosen Family Law Center, following along with us following along with activists like me about what's going on. And then we regularly post alerts about, hey, there's a bill, you need to call your Senate. Senator, you need to tell everybody on social media, you need to let people know who are in districts in areas where their senator might not support it, even if ours will in New York. So I think that staying present with what's going on in our political process, and the legislation and being willing to follow when there's alerts, I think that's incredibly important and staying present for that conversation. Even if you think I'm not in the same sex marriage doesn't really impact me, it does abortion rights. Also, anybody that wants to have freedom over their body should be following along with what's going on with abortion rights. Even if you are a man that just wants to have sexual freedom for yourself. And for your partners, you need to follow along with what's going on with abortion rights, because that impacts you too. So we're all in this together. And I think just staying present for this political moment that's incredibly crucial for our country. Is is key. And there are a lot of people were putting the information out and making calls, making fundraising pitches, saying hey, spread the word. I think there is actually a tremendous power to on things like social media, there's power and being able to follow along and be really connected and hear what's going on from different specific activists like me and and other groups, but also then to be able to share and share with people who may not be persuaded yet, people who may be on the fence, not necessarily your most conservative relatives who may not change their mind. But there may be very many people that you know, who are not necessarily engaged who don't realize that the issues of abortion also affect sexually active men, for example, who want also want sexual freedom for themselves and their partners, other things that people can do to be involved. I think getting more involved with activist nonprofits. I'm one of many people that runs a small struggling nonprofit. We're always fundraising. We're always looking for volunteer kind of help. And there are many, many people who are doing that kind of grassroots work. So for example, I'm here in New York City and work actively with local LGBTQ centers with refugee populations with low income trans people with sex workers with low income polyamorous people, low income LGBTQ people. And there are lots of opportunities to be in support of that kind of work. And frankly, if you're not sure what to do, finding activists and causes, and donating money always helps. If you're not sure what to do, saying, I don't know what to do. But I bet you could do something with this $1,000, you know, and for that money, I can set up a polyamorous triad with all of their legal paperwork that they need, you know, it can make be really efficient with what we do. So donating to nonprofits that you support, volunteering with groups that you support, and figuring out something that's connected to your issues in your own community. So for example, I'm here in the New York City, polyamorous community, supporting the low income members of our community, and giving them the legal stability that will help them with whatever comes next. That's one way to tap in, if that's relevant to you, but figuring out whatever is a cause, and then getting a bit more engaged, even if it's, I donate to this nonprofit, and I share their information on social media. And I read what they say that I should be doing in terms of calling my senators. That's something that's a start. And there's lots and lots of people like me, and every local area that you can get engaged with.

Effy

So important that we do that. Because like you said, this is just the beginning. And it rolls downhill really fast. Fast. Yeah.

Jacqueline

So what legal steps can or should queer married folks take to protect our rights in the case that marriage is dissolved in the eyes of the US government?

Diana Adams

I think it's really important, first off, to recognize the tremendous divide that we have in our country, and that there are some places where there are tremendous rollbacks, and LGBTQ rights. And that sometimes you may want to think about whether you are if you're in a red state, or if you're in a particularly conservative area, thinking about do I want to stay if I if you have the privilege to leave, I think that's a really valid decision. We need people to be voting in Texas, we need people to be voting in Florida. But I would not live as a person with a uterus, or a queer person in Texas or Florida right now, I would get out. Honestly, I would. Because you're in a place where they are specifically and successfully banning a lot of your rights and privileges in terms of reproductive freedom. And in terms of LGBTQ rights, your ability to advocate for your trans kid, drag queen story hour, it starts there, and it may end up with your marriage. Next, your ability to be fired from your job for being LGBTQ. So if I was in a red state, as a queer person, I would think about leaving

Effy

that just gave me goosebumps, I literally feel like I just heard what you said, across my body.

Diana Adams

Yeah, it's terrible. Then for me here in New York, honestly, I wasn't going to buy a house, in this area in the US until I saw what happened with the Senate and whether Trump's election desires were getting voted in. And still might even wait till the 2024 presidential election before I buy a house because otherwise I might move to Berlin or Portugal. Honestly, like, that's where I'm at, you know, seeing this from a world perspective. And the way things could turn really quickly. Just being aware if many people, most of us don't have the financial privilege to pick up and move. But if you have the financial privilege to pick up and move, just be conscious about where you are. And if you are choosing to if you have the choice, whether you want to choose to be living in a place that doesn't respect your civil rights. And also for those that feel like they're up for staying and fighting, we also need progressive voters in those places. And that's one of the reasons these places are voting the way they are. Because a lot of the queer people that have the privilege to leave left a lot of the progressive people with graduate degrees left because they didn't want to live in a place that was going in that direction. And so we're seeing this population drain. We need people to stay if they feel strong enough for it. But I think it's important to weigh that as a personal choice if you have that privilege.

Effy

So let's talk about polyamorous folks and non married couples read what are the legal steps can or should non married couples, polyamorous partners, and or queer parents take to protect their rights.

Diana Adams

Getting all of your legal paperwork in order is actually really powerful, if not something that sounds sexy and exciting to talk about doing your will or your advanced medical directives, or making financial agreements with your partners. But that's really something that can be stabilizing. And I've been doing this work long enough to have been doing it before we had same sex marriage in New York State and working with people to creatively figure out okay, we're not you know, two gay men, for example, not legally married, but how could we do a will for them, that makes it clear and minimizes any kind of taxes, they're gonna have to pay a death? How can we creatively structure their finances together? Maybe they have joint accounts so that there's not some big transfer happening? You know, at the time of death, it's going to cause a tremendous tax hit. How do we make sure we your gay partner can stay in your apartment after you leave? You know, if you're not legally married, doing all of that kind of brainstorming and creative work to try to keep people legally connected, is tremendously helpful in a time I'm where you're not necessarily relying just on marriage or what marriage means. That's very helpful. I think it's also in this time of everybody wanting stability, particularly with both the political climate and what happened with COVID. More and more people are realizing that they want to feel that safety and stability as much as they can with their family members. And so, with that, I'm helping people for example, who are polyamorous or who are doing family in any kind of other different way platonic co parents or people who are cohousing and living together collectively, actually doing agreements about how you're structuring your finances? Having conversations about how if one person isn't working, and is staying home does care for children are the household? How are they getting financially provided for if the situation breaks apart? We all need to separate? How are we making sure that person has financial security? Staying connected, making sure people all have retirement savings having check ins about what's our financial situation? How are we entwined? What are our assumptions? Because I think also when people are going off road and creating family in their own way, we don't have a script for what that looks like. And I'm really passionate about helping people to figure out well, how do we want to share finances? How do we want to structure our lives together? How do we want to set this up? Do you want to have children? Do you not want to have children you want to be financially and interdependent? Or do you want to stay more independent, those are all worthy conversations. And people like me, relish having them with clients. And I think that having kind of legal documents in place that clarify your parental status, and make sure that that's as clear as possible, especially if you're a non biological parent, getting your protections in place to keep you legally connected to your kid, keeping you legally connected to your partners as much as possible, making sure that everyone's financially provided for advanced medical directives to make sure you could all visit each other in the hospital and be together with each other. Those are the kinds of things in times of crisis that help people feel safe as much as possible, and will also help regardless of whether marriages are valid in the US or not.

Effy

Yeah, it's kind of interesting. Wait, the marriage take care of all of those things in one fell swoop, the marriage contract. And then when you break it apart and try to do it individually, it sounds so unromantic. And I think what we've done with marriage that we've made a legal document, romanticized and everyone's like, yeah, let's get married, they don't quite understand the extent of support and privilege it comes with. And it just feels like it's about the wedding and the white, the white wedding dress, and then only when you break it apart and say, Okay, how can we do this without the romantic part of it all, it sounds calculated, and so, so dry, but it's just shows how essential it is and how much of a privilege marriage is, it's not about the white wedding. It's about all these things that affords you to have in the world. And I think sometimes people aren't willing to separate the romance from the practical legal side of things and aren't necessarily willing to sort of go through the steps that you you've described. But we really have to have to really think about that. And I think goes back to what you're saying about like, it's wrapped in Christian values or religious values, right, we've got to be able to separate that. And if that's if that's really important to you, if the spirituality if the religious part of it is really important to you, by all means celebrate that, but let's not ignore that there is a much like, practical and legal part two, that that then needs to be allowed for everybody.

Jacqueline

Absolutely. I

Diana Adams

think that marriage, as it exists in the US is dangerous, because it conflates this romantic idea of a sacrament, and also of this spiritual moment, this incredibly romantic time, we get distracted by throwing this giant party. And then it's actually like you've signed on to a template contract with the government, you're in a way, an unholy three way with the government in which you've signed on to just what the standard marriage laws are, which are over 1000 different rights and responsibilities to each other. But most people don't even read like they would have cell phone contract. And so we have no idea what you're signing on for. And I think that is actually a risk for people. And one reason why I prefer, I think we're all safer when we have marriage or domestic partnership as options when you go to City Hall, and then just taking a moment to say, oh, what's the difference, and realizing, oh, marriage means we've become a social welfare state of two, and we pool all of our money together. And so if one of you gets into $1,000 worth of debt or $100,000 worth of debt, you share that, even if you had nothing to do with that debt, even if you know your spouse goes off and gets a bunch of credit card debt or goes to rehab, that $100,000 Bill, you split that so that the government doesn't have to, or if one of you does tremendously well buys a big house or does very well, professionally, your spouse gets to share that income. That's an incredibly messy situation. That is the end of many romantic relationships. That's what I do also, as a divorce lawyers help people figure out those kinds of messes that they didn't necessarily intend or they don't necessarily feel fair. And so it's just important for people to know that what they're signing on to, and I think that marriages will be stronger when we do short marriages will be stronger. If we have another domestic partnership kind of option that says you're legally connected, and you'll be each other's legal partners, and you can share health insurance, but you're not sharing all of your finances unless you make a separate contract about it. It's actually good to have that choice and make that a bit more of a conscious choice for people because I had so many situations with clients right after same sex marriage passed in New York and it It was so exciting. And then it would be like a surgeon is married and out of work actor, because they're in love. And then they're like, oh, oh, wait, what this is going to impact our taxes, this is going to mean that we're supposed to support each other, you have a whole credit card situation, I didn't necessarily want to like become your daddy, and like help you fix your credit card situation, that's not hard. You know, it should be more of a choice people realize they're making, that you're going to become financially entangled and have to sort of take responsibility for each other's financial maturity in a way that is not necessarily sexy, or romantic, or what you intended to do. And so I had many situations of people who are very well educated people, but had no idea that that's what they were signing on to when they were like, Yay, we're gonna get married and Pride weekend. And so this is important that we recognize that and recognize that there are other kinds of choices, and maybe let people have that romantic peace with marriage, but make the the practical legal documents as well. And I tried to add, maybe with my own enthusiasm about how beautiful these conversations are a bit of the romance back into making these agreements, that it's a really sacred thing that I get an honor to be part of midwifing with people, and just recently met with a triad who came into New York City to do their legal documents with me a few weeks after they'd had a big triad commitment, ceremony, wedding, and doing the pieces with me like stamping the paperwork and having a really nice moment where we went to the roof and took a deep breath together. And it does feel like it's really sacred, and was really meaningful for them. And I feel really honored to be part of that. And I think we can also bring the romance back into making intentional agreements, and having intentional conversations.

Effy

Beautiful. I have a quick question for that. Just the devil's advocate, I would just explore it. Do you think though the marriage protects the woman and the women needs, women need that protection?

Diana Adams

I think that marriage is a really effective institution for making sure that perhaps a dependent parent, often a mother, if they're not working, or they're underemployed that they are provided for. So even really radical progressive couples will sometimes come to me and say, What should we do to structure a relationship? And I'll say, Okay, well, if she's going to be staying home with children for several years and take a major career hit, that's when marriage makes sense. Maybe because he's putting all this money into his retirement account, that retirement account, money will get split. And it's half hers when you get divorced. So if you're going to be a dependent, stay at home parent, for example, or just a financial dependent in whatever way, maybe you're home, taking care of the household, maybe you're supporting your partner's career, then it makes sense matter what your gender is, it often does help women and mothers. But then I've seen many situations where it's important also, for men to recognize that maybe they might need that kind of protection, especially if they're going to be in a situation of caretaking or being independent. So if you're sacrificing a lot for your partner's career, even if it's just every two years, we have to move for my partner's career. So I don't ever really have a chance to fully dig in and make as much money as I wouldn't be making a career sacrifice. That's a situation which maybe, then it's appropriate for you to be splitting their earnings with them if you get separated. Because you've basically signed on to be mutual support each other's careers. So that's a situation where sometimes I say, you know, what, actually getting married might make sense for you. And it's useful to recognize as a legal tool. And I think it's useful to, to actually recognize what it means and when you can use it as a legal tool and when it's not the right legal tool for you. I've also done many situations in which there are polyamorous triads and they reconfigure their marriage based on a need for health insurance, or immigration status. So for example, longterm happily married couple gay couple had a boyfriend and boyfriend did not have a green card, and was potentially going to go back to a country where being gay is criminalized, it was not gonna be safe for him, we explored all the other employment options he tried with the other kinds of immigration options. And then finally, a year later, they said, You know what, this is getting dangerous for him, and we love him. And we're now in this, you know, multi year committed relationship as a triad. We're gonna get amicably divorced, long term married couple, and then one of us is going to marry him so that he can get a green card based on marriage. It's fully legal. I've also had multiple cases like that, where we're not lying to the immigration officials, when we're doing the interview. There's this traditional ideas that you need to sort of lot of people have done sham marriages. This is actually a real marriage. It's just complicated and New York style, and we just explain it and explain that they're in a legitimate relationship and also still in relation with this person. And yes, I did just get divorced from this guy that we still live with. And now I'm married to this person, but we have a legitimate relationship. And that's valid, you're allowed to use marriage that way. And so while legal, it's it may not sound romantic, but marriage is a powerful legal tool that you can share with somebody if you need to. I've also seen situations in which it's four people together and maybe two of them who are married to each other both have really good health insurance, and then the other couple don't and it's going to cost the whole quad a lot of money to buy them health insurance, or the two people who are, who don't have health insurance, maybe the person who have health insurance is going to be the one having a baby or has a serious health issue. And it's like, you know what, we're not going to navigate one of our partners having ms without the good health insurance, we're not going to navigate our partner doing IVF without the good health insurance. And we don't need this legal contract to demonstrate our love. We could legally disentangle marriage. And then one of us we could remarry in a different configuration a triad or quad to utilize that as a tool. And then sometimes do something that's affirming, like creating a commitment ceremony. That's okay, we're disentangling this, we're recreating over here. But regardless of that structure, let's do a beautiful ritual, about the three of us getting reconnected, you know, let's honor the wedding rings that you've had together. And that we all share them now. Or that you still have them or you know, that we're gonna put them in a special box, but we're going to acknowledge where you've done, you're gonna acknowledge those relationships, and create our own radical rituals to celebrate that relationship, even as we use marriage in a more strategic way.

Jacqueline

So do you have any legal advice for CO parents who are not biological parents?

Diana Adams

Absolutely. I think it's incredibly important that any non biological parents do everything they can to stay connected to their children. So first, this if it's a scenario of, for example, a female same sex couple, is a very common example, in my world, where maybe there's a birth mom, who's gonna be the bio mom, and then partner is not biologically connected. That's often a female, same sex couple, but it could be a partner who is trans, it could be a man who's unable to have children, whatever the reason, a non biologically connected partner that's going to live from the time of birth as a parent, in that situation in New York State, you can now do what's called a judgment of parentage, we just passed us with the child parents Security Act in 2020. And that's a legal document that just clarifies we had a sperm donor, we have to document where the sperm came from. So it has to be sort of that traditional model of we had, you know, non sperm donor with a legal agreement, or what to a sperm bank. This is the other mom who's an equal mom. And we're just clarifying that, and that is going to be stronger than just being on the birth certificate. If you're married in New York State, or many blue states in the US, whoever's married to Mom is allowed to be on the birth certificate, this actually comes from a really old fashioned principle called the presumption of parentage. And so if me and my wife husband go to the hospital, and I have a Chinese baby, everyone's just like, not on on on our, we're not thinking about it. But when you're married to is responsible for take paying for this baby, it all comes down to the state not wanting to pay, right. They're like, you're you're married, I don't know, you know, you had a baby, there's like either of you. But okay, it comes from that kind of principle. And but then, oddly, females and sex couples are able to benefit from that. But that's only valid in New York State, and it doesn't really clarify where you got the sperm from, and that there's not some other person out there. So the birth certificate is not enough, people need to realize the birth certificates, not enough just to guarantee their parentage. So doing a judgment of parentage is really helpful. In other states, that might be a second parent adoption, where you clarify that bio mom is staying the parent, but the second parent does an adoption. To clarify, that can be a long process, it could take over a year, in some places, you have to get fingerprinting and a home study from a social worker, it's a hassle, but it's worth it. And also at chosen Family Law Center in New York State, we will do your judgment of parentage for free if you're a low income person and a non bio parent, so contact us and we'll help with that. Because it's incredibly important people get that done for their safety, because that won't count the recipient won't make won't make a difference.

Effy

I'm so glad you tried it out. Because that's exactly what I wanted to say that all this legal stuff sounds great. But it also is a privilege, right? It costs a lot of money to get that stuff in in order. And what you're doing with the chosen Family Law Center is so incredible, now that I really wrap my head around what it takes. And then first of all, I'm glad there are options. And that species sort of the US for for better or worse, at the same time that it just requires privilege and resources to be able to do that on your own. And the work that you're doing with the chosen Family Law Center allows people their human rights and right to love and to parent and to do all that stuff. So that's really important. So I just want to thank you for that. That's like just so incredibly important.

Diana Adams

Thank you. I appreciate that. And I started the chosen family law center because I saw that there was a real need for these services. And I started my boutique law firm serving paying clients in 2007 in New York. And partly I sorted that because I saw that there weren't other people who are supporting polyamorous families and supporting the kinds of configurations of LGBTQ families that were in my own personal community as a polyamorous queer person. And people would ask me, you know, who do I go to? If my ex is threatening to take my kids away because I'm polyamorous, no child custody case. And I looked around and there was no one doing that. And I said, Well, I'm a family lawyer. And I'm personally polyamorous and queer. I could do that and who do I go to to get my Help as a female, same sex couple to get all the documents in order. And at the time, it was really complicated it was how do we figure out whether the Vermont civil union is going to be valid here to share health insurance of my partner? And who do you go to, to navigate that there were very, very few people doing that at all. So basically, I started my own law firm in 2007, to do that kind of work, and then expanded it with other attorneys working for me. But still, during that whole time, you know, if there was a solid decade of major LGBTQ organizations, if you called and said, I have a polyamory issue, they would all just refer to me. I don't have any nonprofit funding. I'm just one person working on my own with a few employees. And so I had to turn away a tremendous number of people who were calling and saying, you know, how do we set up our polyamorous family, or if they couldn't afford to pay me, then I couldn't help them. And I'm doing this as a mission driven business, not just as a business, and I want to be able to serve my community. And so that's where chosen Family Law Center came in so that we can afford to give people that kind of support by getting nonprofit funding and support and donations.

Unknown Speaker

That's fantastic. So appreciative of the work and like I said, I, my wife and I were clients, your law and mediation center. And so you know, really appreciated that that was something that was an option. Thank you. Wondering if we can spend our last few minutes just getting to know you a little better before we leave this conversation. And so we have four questions that we'd love to ask you. Just to get to know you a little bit more.

Jacqueline

The first of which is, what is one piece of advice that you would give to your younger self about love sex relationships.

Diana Adams

I think that I would give myself the advice that it's possible to really manifest the life of your dreams, and the relationships of your dreams, through self awareness and communication. I think the advice to my younger self would be to feel bravery to leap into that journey, and my younger self would have been delighted with the life I've created now as a polyamorous person and a long term relationship with a child and other partners.

Effy

Beautiful. Okay, let's see if we can get a little saucy. What is one romantic or sexual adventure on your bucket list.

Diana Adams

I have been in beautiful polyamorous quads before and polyamorous triads before. And I'm now in a phase in my life in which I have become a parents and lived internationally for a while. And I feel like I would be really excited for this next version in my life of being in a triad again. And I think that I'd be really interested in that kind of adventure. And I look forward to being in even though I have a really grounded nesting partner, I look forward to adventuring and other kinds of relationship configurations in future and continuing to build poly family for myself. I'm open to so like living internationally. Again, I'm open to having another nesting partner. I'm open to that kind of fluidity. And I'm excited about that.

Jacqueline

Yes, everything that we concur here I want to it seems like an obvious question, but how is it that you challenge the status quo?

Diana Adams

I challenge the status quo by having really designed and created my own career and my own personal life in a way that works for me. And I'm really grateful for experiences like Burning Man, and my polyamorous community, that helps me sort of step off the hamster wheel.

Effy

Beautiful. Okay, so we are a curious bunch around here. And we aren't curious about what you're curious about lately.

Diana Adams

I am a really wonky answer. But I am a geek about history. I'm a geek about political movements, and thinking about what's happened historically and learning and continuing to develop my knowledge about what has happened in the rise and fall of authoritarianism. What we can learn from other countries in that experience, what we can learn from the tremendous sects of the same sex marriage success of the same sex marriage movement, and how we can carry that for other movements. Because I am really interested in being a positive change agent in the US, I moved back to the US to try to fight for my country, because we are in a desperate situation politically. And I want to be curious and always learning and not stuck in my ways, or think that I have all the answers about how we do that. Feeling like I'm curious about expanding my perspective, always beyond what's happening in the US and beyond what's happening, my own experience, so that I can stay nimble and stay in a place of growth always.

Effy

Beautiful. That's amazing. Thank you. Thank you, Diana. Thank you, Diana. Thanks for all the information you shared with us. It's one of those episodes. I think we are we're going to listen over and over again. I think it's going to take a few less Since there's just so much information, such precious important information, and we'll also you know in our show notes will give you all the links and everything else for people who want to support you and find out more about the work. Just thank you for the work that you do.

Diana Adams

Thank you so much. This has been such a wonderful conversation.

Jacqueline

If you want to learn more about Diane Adams and their work, visit Diana Adams law dotnet and chosen family law center.org or visit Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at Diana Adams II S Q. If you want to weigh in on this topic, share additional resources or just want to connect with other foxy listeners. Head to facebook and join our Facebook group. At we are curious foxes. If you find our episodes interesting and helpful or even funny. Please share our podcast with a friend quickly rate the show leave a comment and subscribe to Apple podcast or follow us on Spotify or Stitcher. A few seconds of your time will have a big impact for us. Our beautifully colorful website is filled with reading lists, blog posts and past episodes that can help you indulge your curiosity around love sex and relationships. Visit us at WWE are curious foxes.com to support the show. Join us on Patreon. At we are curious foxes, where you can find many episodes, podcasts extras that couldn't make it to the show, and over 50 videos from educator led workshops including the one facilitated by Diane Adams, go to patreon at we're curious foxes. And finally, let us know that you're listening by sharing a comment story or a question. You can email us or send us a voice memo to listening at we're curious foxes.com Or you could record a question for the show by calling us at 646-450-9079

Effy

This episode is produced by Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla with help from Yağmur Erkişi our editor is Nina Pollack, who protects our right to be awesome on every episode. Our intro music is composed by dev Zaha we are so grateful for that work, and we're grateful to you for listening as always Stay curious friends.

Jacqueline

I feel like there's tongue twisters in every episode. I just because I can't speak say words.

Effy

Catch up. catch us up

Jacqueline

on why can I say words? I'm gonna do it. It's gonna happen.

Effy

He's a numbers guy. No, that's true. On June 24 2022, the US supreme government overturn Roe v Wade,

Jacqueline

which the sorry You said supreme government it does the overlords

Effy

my buddy knows the truth him back to another episode. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends.

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