Ep 138: Closing the Orgasm Gap with Grace Wetzel
Illustration by the talented @caprikado
What does research say about the orgasm gap between men and women? Why do women report a significant drop in sexual pleasure when men enter the equation? Why is it important for us to have orgasm equality and what can we do collectively to close the gap?
In this episode, Effy and Jacqueline sit down with Grace Wetzel to explore how our gendered experiences shape our sexual experiences. They look at research, which indicates that bi and straight women have the least amount of orgasms, compared to straight men, bi men, and lesbians. And they discuss why this disparity has more to do with desire than biology.
To learn more about Grace
Grace Wetzel is a doctoral student in the Social Psychology program at Rutgers University. She works in the Close Relationships, Identity, and Stigma (CRIS) Lab under the advisement of Dr. Diana Sanchez. She received her undergraduate degree in Psychology from St. Lawrence University. Grace studies the impact of gender on sexuality from a feminist psychological perspective. Specifically, she studies the orgasm gap between cisgender men and women. Her main lines of research focus on how biological essentialist explanations are used to justify and perpetuate the orgasm gap, as well as women's decisions to pursue or not pursue orgasm as a goal in their sexual encounters. Grace is a recipient of the National Science Foundation's Graduate Research Fellowship for her work on this topic.
Grace has dedicated her professional life to the pursuit of sexual and gender equity within and outside of academic research. Notably, she has a TEDx talk on the sexual pleasure disparity which has garnered over six million views online. She has continued to advocate for sexual equity by giving academic guest lectures, speaking at events, appearing on podcasts, writing for newspaper outlets, and building an educational Instagram platform with over 17,000 followers. Her ultimate goal is for her work to aid in removing the stigmas and inequities surrounding the gendered sexual experience, through both empirical research and broader advocacy.
Instagram: @orgasm_equality_
Twitter: @grace__wetzel
Ted Talk: Let's talk about sex: the reality of the sexual-pleasure disparity | Grace Wetzel | TEDxStLawrenceU
Research publication: Orgasm Frequency Predicts Desire andExpectation forOrgasm: Assessing the Orgasm Gap within Mixed‑Sex Couples
Website: www.gracewetzel.com
Research cited within podcast:
(Roughly in order of appearance)
Sanchez, D. T., Fetterolf, J. C., & Rudman, L. A. (2012a). Eroticizing inequality in the United States: The consequences and determinants of traditional gender role adherence in intimate relationships. Journal of Sex Research, 49(2-3), 168-183. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224499.2011.653699?journalCode=hjsr20
Sanchez, D. T., Kiefer, A., & Ybarra, O. (2006). Sexual submissiveness in women: Costs for autonomy. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 32(4), 512–524. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0146167205282154
Sanchez, D. T., Crocker, J., & Boike, K. R. (2005). Doing gender in the bedroom: Investing in gender norms and the sexual experience. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 31(10), 1445– 1455. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0146167205277333
Kiefer, A., Sanchez, D. T., Kalinka, C. J., & Ybarra, O. (2006). How women’s nonconscious association of sex with submission relates to their subjective sexual arousability and ability to orgasm. Sex Roles, 55, 83–94. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-006-9060-9
Mahar, E. A., Mintz, L. B., & Akers, B. M. (2020). Orgasm equality: Scientific findings and societal implications. Current Sexual Health Reports, 12, 24-32. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11930-020-00237-9
Frederick, D. A., John, S., Kate, H., Garcia, J. R., & Lloyd, E. A. (2018). Differences in orgasm frequency among gay, lesbian, bisexual, and heterosexual men and women in a U.S. national sample. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 47(1), 273–288. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-017-0939-z
Armstrong, E. A., England, P., & Fogarty, A. C. K. (2012). Accounting for women's orgasm and sexual enjoyment in college hookups and relationships. American Sociological Review, 77(3), 435–462. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0003122412445802.
Wetzel, G. M., Cultice, R. A., & Sanchez, D. T. (2022). Orgasm frequency predicts desire and expectation for orgasm: Assessing the orgasm gap within mixed-sex couples. Sex Roles, 86, 456-470. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-022-01280-7
Wetzel, G. M. & Sanchez, D. T. (2022). Heterosexual young adults’ experience with and perceptions of the orgasm gap: A mixed methods approach. Psychology of Women Quarterly, 46(2), 131-146. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/03616843221076410
Mintz, L.B. (2017). Becoming cliterate: Why orgasm equality matters - and how to get it. New York: HarperOne.
Nagoski, E. (2015). Come as you are: The surprising new science that will transform your sex life. New York, NY: Simon and Schuster.
Blair, K. L., & Pukall, C. F. (2014). Can less be more? Comparing duration vs. frequency of sexual encounters in same-sex and mixed-sex relationships. The Canadian Journal of Human Sexuality, 23(2), 123-136. https://utpjournals.press/doi/10.3138/cjhs.2393
Jones, A.C., Robinson, W.D., & Seedall, R.B. (2018). The role of sexual communication in couples’ sexual outcomes: a dyadic path analysis. Journal of Marital Family Therapy, 44(4), 606–623. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jmft.12282.
Chadwick, S. B., Francisco, M., & van Anders, S. M. (2019). When orgasms do not equal pleasure: Accounts of “bad” orgasm experiences during consensual sexual encounters. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 48(8), 2435-2459. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-019-01527-7
Chadwick, S. B., & van Anders, S. M. (2022). Orgasm coercion: Overlaps between pressuring someone to orgasm and sexual coercion. Archives of sexual behavior, 51(1), 633-651. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-021-02162-x
Popular press article and research about women’s engagement in hookup culture:
Sent an email, waiting for follow-up
Artist:
Meg Primmer
Instagram: @meg.primmer
Shop: https://megprimmer.bigcartel.com/
Stop Faking Orgasms: https://megprimmer.bigcartel.com/category/stop-faking-orgasms
This is the popular press article that we discussed about women's hookup motivations:
Katie Adams, the author of this article, is the person I was referencing, and she has one research publication about this topic which is listed in the references of the Sex and Psychology article. I copied the reference here:
de Jong, D. C., Adams, K. N., & Reis, H. T. (2018). Predicting Women’s Emotional Responses to Hooking Up: Do Motives Matter? Journal of Social and Personal Relationships, 35, 532–556.
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TRANSCRIPT:
(intro)
Hello, hi. Hi. Hi. Hello I'm curious about curious about I'm curious about cute is about building open, authentic, loving relationship? I'm curious about jealousy. I'm curious about polyamory, just mean that you're fucking all the time. How can I tell my parents that my partner is already married and curious about how do you know when you're too busy to have another relationship? I'm curious about dominant subordinate relationship. I'm curious about sexual health.How can relationships evolve with people as they grow and change?
Grace Wetzel
So when you go through a sexual encounter and you do not touch the clitoris, sis men can imagine a sexual encounter in which their penis is not touched. And you know, only there only their testicles are touched only their prostate is touched, but their penis is not touched.
Effy
Welcome to the curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.
Jacqueline
And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And today we're talking about orgasm equality. At a time when equality is top of mind in our communities, jobs and social constructs, we should also consider what equality looks like within our sexual experiences.
Effy
Let's start with looking at some of the data to really understand what the lay of the land is when it comes to sex and pleasure. In a 2017 study on differences in orgasm frequency among gay, lesbian, bisexual, and heterosexual men and women in the US, were researchers analyzed over 52,000 people, they found that a whopping 95% of heterosexual men were most likely to say they always usually orgasm. When sexually intimate, gay and bi men were close, with 89% and 88% respectively, of them saying they usually always orgasm during sex. These results are somewhat unsurprising, we'd maybe imagine gay and bi men to be at the top of the list. But overall, these findings align with what we experienced socially. The number starts to get interesting when you look at lesbian bi and straight women with lesbian woman reporting about the same as gay and bi men, with 86% of them saying they usually always reach an orgasm during sex. And then there's a massive drop to 66 and 65% for bisexual and straight women respectively, saying they usually always orgasm when having sex, indicating a massive pleasure gap when men get involved with women's pleasure.
Jacqueline
So basically, we have st men at the top of the list with 95% followed by the gays and lesbians and by men who are in the high 80s. And then the numbers plummet with by and straight women in the mid 60s.
Effy
To jump headfirst into this gap. We reached out to the creator of the popular Instagram feed orgasm equality.
Grace Wetzel
I'm Grace Wetzel. I'm a social psychology PhD student at Rutgers University, researching how our gendered experiences shape our sexual lives.
Effy
Gray studies the impact of gender on sexuality from a feminist psychological perspective. Her TEDx talk on the sexual pleasure disparity has garnered over 6 million views. And her research connects the dots between the work of several social scientists and researchers who are looking into gender, sexual orientation, sex and pleasure.
Jacqueline
Before we dig into the research with grace, we have a few disclaimers. As with most research out there, the results are based on experience of self reporting says straight monogamous college aged often white individuals. And because researchers often look for the quantifiable and the binary, in our conversation, we're going to use terms like men and women as that's the language that's used in the research. However, the information about arousal can apply to vulva and penis owners, regardless of their gender. We're also going to focus our conversation on orgasms because again, orgasms are quantifiable in a way that overall pleasure is not. However, not everyone can, wants to or needs to orgasm, and orgasms are not a sign of or necessary for pleasure. So while we're talking about the quote unquote orgasm gap, this is really about how people have different experiences with desire and pleasure based on their gender socialization. As with most research, the population in the studies do not reflect the diversity and complexity of the real world. That said, there are some universal experiences and opportunities that apply across demographics.
Effy
If you're interested in looking into the research that was referenced within today's discussion, you can see the citations in the episode show notes, or for those who subscribe to our newsletter in the new episode drop email in your inbox. And if you'd like to check out some research on relationships and sexuality that includes an even focuses on participants who are queer, poly, sis and trans of different ages. from different countries and cultures, listen to episode 122 relationship satisfaction, non monogamy and science with Dr. Justin Mikulski.
Jacqueline
We started our conversation with grace by asking about how our gendered experience shapes our sexual experience.
Grace Wetzel
When we talk about gender roles in society, I don't think we always have a full grasp of just how deeply these gender roles shape everything about who we come to be. And of course, that includes sex and sexuality. And so there are traditional sexual gender roles as well. From a cisgender heterosexual perspective, men are active and women are passive receivers of sex in these traditional roles. And research has found that when women adopt a passive sexual role, where they're the receivers of sexual action, with no real autonomy of their own adaption of this role can lead to less pleasure and orgasm for women. And we can see this active versus passive distinction in the way that we even just talk about sex. So men are often the actors of the sentence, and women are the literal objects of the sentence. So when you think of phrases like did you hit that right? Or did you hit it, women are literally the object of the sentence. And then in the same vein, women often take on a performance role during sex, where they're actually putting on a performance of their pleasure for the pleasure of their partner, rather than actually experiencing that pleasure authentically themselves.
Effy
Wow, those all ring true, right? I feel like there was only thing very, very true.
Jacqueline
And I don't think I had thought about that before that women are the that and the it in the sentences.
Effy
Yeah.
Grace Wetzel
So related to that you can't separate women's sexual experience from women's objectification in society, which often leads to women's self objectifying right or viewing themselves as an object from that outsider perspective. And then women also deal with a long history of sexual shame, they often have to overcome that sexual shame in order to experience their sexuality authentically, as well as slut shaming and sexual victimization, and all of those things that that women deal with. And then men also have to deal with gendered expectations of masculinity that put a ton of pressure on men to perform in specifically gendered ways, including putting a lot of pressure on the penis, in particular, to give pleasure when actually clitoral stimulation is more important for orgasm for people with Volvos. So there's this expectation to perform these gender roles in the bedroom. And research has actually found that that that pressure to perform leads to less pleasure and satisfaction for everyone involved because it keeps people from being able to express their sexuality authentically.
Effy
Did you get anywhere around why this dynamic is installed into our society?
Grace Wetzel
The gender roles that that I'm talking about, even
Effy
though no one's having fun, like what I heard you just say is like, no one's everyone.
Grace Wetzel
And no one's no one, no one's having pleasure?
Effy
Do we have an idea as to why we've done this ourselves?
Grace Wetzel
I mean, that's such a hard question to answer. I mean, we can take it really broad, like we can go to patriarchy, and kind of as far as how and why these rules have been established. But I think that also connects to just like how patriarchy hurts everyone, like, we think of patriarchy as hurting only some groups of people. But these rules, they're limiting everybody involved, right? Like, no one's having fun. Everyone's limited. And yeah, I love talking about how patriarchy hurts men too. And I feel like this is one example of that.
Curious Fox
Mm hmm.
Jacqueline
When I was listening to your TED Talk, something that came up for me was my own experience with heterosexual sex. And in particularly in my 20s this idea of having to like suck in my stomach hide the full arch my back like position myself just right. And spending so much time thinking about my positioning, thinking about the sounds that I was making, like thinking about trying to be like the living breathing porn movie or magazine exactly has seen that it was about it was really focused on his pleasure, whether or not I did a good job at the end of it, and reflecting back I feel sad for young me. It should, I couldn't have done it differently. But it speaks a lot to what you're talking about in terms of the factors that shape our spirit, our sexual experience, are these perceptions of this role that we're supposed to be playing. And then that just gets so caught up in our heads.
Grace Wetzel
You're hitting exactly right. What what I'm trying thing to say, which is that that performance element like so many women have had that experience of, of performing their pleasure, what sounds am I going to make? What facial expressions am I going to make in order to, to enact that fantasy for their partner? And that's kind of distracting from their authentic experience?
Jacqueline
Yeah, something else that you mentioned, too, was that women ask for less oral sex than men do generally. And, you know, in reference to that has to do with naming that we have desire, not believing that we should have desire all of those things. And again, it really had me reflecting, particularly in my experience in my 20s, and saying, yes, younger me, why didn't I ask and I, we didn't have the language, we didn't practice it, it didn't feel like it was comfortable. And so there's just so many experiences that you're that you're what you're quoting in the research that it has brought up for me, totally,
Effy
also asking for what you want, but also instructing, that's the other thing that we talk about a lot. You know, it's like, the thing that has happened to you might not be optimal. But we don't feel like we have, we can take up the space or we have the right or we worthy of saying, hey, like this isn't actually working. Like I can see, you're trying to pleasure me, and it's not quite working for me, can I just show you what would work? And it feels like that just being able to say that is a huge deal. And the world is going to come crashing down if you were to make any adjustments to what's happening at that time.
Grace Wetzel
Yes, sexual communication is so so key. And it's and it's more difficult than then we think it's going to be I think, because of there's this entitlement gap that you're touching on that women tend to feel less entitled than men to to that pleasure.
Effy
Yeah. So what are some of the other major factors that shape our sexual experience?
Grace Wetzel
Yeah, I think one that I would also want to touch on is sexual scripts. So there are sexual scripts for heterosexual sex, that tell us you know, what to expect when we get into a sexual encounter. And the dominant script for heterosexual sex is basically the following. So you start with foreplay, which is usually pretty brief. And it's designed to get the woman quote, unquote, ready for intercourse. And that usually includes the sex acts that would be most likely to result in her orgasm. Then you have intercourse, which is considered the main and most important sex act, then the man has an orgasm from intercourse. And then that signals the end of sex. So now sex is over. So there's very little room for women's orgasm within this dominant script. Since only 5% of women report vaginal penetration alone as their most reliable route to orgasm. There's so little room for orgasm in this script, right? Women would need to either orgasm quickly during foreplay, or they would need to incorporate clitoral stimulation into intercourse, which many women do. But as you can see, like, if this is how heterosexual sex goes, there's no wonder that there's an orgasm gap, right? This this script is not designed for women's orgasm in any way. So we shouldn't be surprised that women are experiencing less pleasure and less orgasm.
Effy
And you started a whole Instagram page about that about the orgasm gap. And yeah, seeking orgasm equality, which I was support 100% Yeah. So can you tell us a little bit about that? Like, what is the orgasm got? What do we mean when we say the orgasm gap? Yes, absolutely.
Grace Wetzel
So the orgasm gap is the name for the well established finding that cisgender men have substantially more orgasms than cisgender women on average, during partnered sex. And so depending on which study you're looking at, men are typically having orgasms around 90% of the time, while women are having orgasms around 65% of the time, but the size of that gap can vary greatly depending on other aspects of the sexual context. So, for example, during relationship sex that includes oral sex and clitoral stimulation included during intercourse, the orgasm gap can essentially close and then it can be greatly exacerbated in other contexts, like a first time hookup. And then something else I want to specify is that any kind of couples can have an orgasm gap in any direction. But when we talk about the orgasm gap as a social phenomenon, we're specifically talking about cisgender women who are having sex with cisgender men.
Effy
Are we just counting the orgasms? Or are we counting the orgasms from penetrative sex? Like how are we counting the orgasm?
Grace Wetzel
We're counting all orgasms because very few women are reliably experiencing orgasm from penetrative sex.
Effy
Okay, okay.
Jacqueline
Can you talk more about you mentioned kind of the distinction between hookup sex versus I imagined relationship sex? Can you talk more about that? What is the distinction between those? Why is there a difference between those?
Grace Wetzel
Yeah, so I think both men and women experience orgasm less frequently in a first time sexual encounter. But the gap is much, much larger for women. So there is an aspect of you know, the more comfortable you get with a person, the more you learn a person's body, right, the the more you're going to be able to pleasure each other. So the more comfortable you get, the more familiar you get, the more orgasms you'll experience. But that gap is so exacerbated for women. And I think there's a lot of factors that play into that one being there's been research that has shown a kind of disregard for women's pleasure during casual sex. So something that it's something that's not as expected. And women often don't feel like their partners are prioritizing it. And even men themselves, report that they're not prioritizing their partner's orgasm in that kind of situation.
Jacqueline
Wow. Which is fascinating. Because for the perspective of a woman, if the intention is a hookup, and you're thinking, well, this won't leave to lead to a relationship, then why in those moments, would I be shy about what I write? Who cares if I ask for what I want? And he's offended? Or, you know, like, what do I have to lose, essentially? And so it's so interesting that in those cases, that that the gap is even larger? Certainly, because it sounds like the males are, you know, men are prioritizing their own, but that women are D prioritizing themselves more in those situations, which is fascinating.
Effy
That's exactly I was just like, what is in it for the women. And if you're not, if you're going from a hookup, and you're not gonna get pleasure from it, you're not going to get a latest sustaining relation relationship from it, probably going to end up feeling shitty, like why are we even why are we even bothering with a hookup like, what is in it for us?
Grace Wetzel
Yeah, yeah. And there is a lot of research looking into that exact question. Like, why Why are women even engaging in this if they're not really getting, theoretically, anything from it, but people do have other motivations for sex. So there, there are other reasons to engage. There's also research that when we expect orgasm less, we're less likely to pursue it. So I think in a sense, women have come to expect that that's not a context in which orgasm will be experienced. And so they're actually pursuing it less. And then I think another factor is feeling comfortable with sexual communication. And and the entitlement gap that I talked about before, like not feeling entitled to pursuing pleasure in a hookup even though it seems counterintuitive. There's, there's an element of not feeling entitled to pursue that.
Jacqueline
Yeah. I wonder too, if part of it has to do with our socialization as women around being polite. I know that there's some research that's been done around the fact that that women have been put in situations for either sexual assault or kidnapping, that potentially could have been avoided had they shouted, yelled, said Stop said no earlier. But what was stopping them was they did not want to be perceived as being rude, or being mean, or not being polite. And so I wonder if that translates into that experience of like, this is a first time person, they don't know me very well. I don't want them to think that I'm rude. Like, I don't think Right, exactly. I don't want them to think badly
Unknown Speaker
of me. And so
Grace Wetzel
sexual, like there's these expectations of women as to sexual they can meet a woman who advocates for what she needs, who advocates her, for her own pleasure is probably seen as a slut as to sexual to dominant. And so everything we're saying relates to those gender roles I was talking about before. Like they're so deeply ingrained in ways that we don't notice until we actually sit down and start to unpack it.
Jacqueline
Yeah. So you talked about what the orgasm gap is. Can you talk more about what orgasm equality looks like?
Grace Wetzel
Absolutely. So to me, orgasm equality is a movement that is about advocating for pleasure and orgasm to be equally valued and prioritize between all intimate partners. So this does not mean orgasm has to be the end all be all, it does not have to be the goal of every sexual encounter. Or even that it should be. It just means that pleasure needs to be equally valued and prioritized between everyone and right now it's it's not women often come to expect less and then be satisfied with less in their intimate relationships. And I'm hoping to change that I want to create a reality where women's orgasm is just as much the expected result of sex as men's orgasm is.
Effy
I do find it that also just reflective of life in general, I think women do expect less, and they can do, they can make do with less in many areas of life. And I think this is just the orgasm gap is just another, you know, another bullet on that list.
Grace Wetzel
And in ways it's very adaptive that that women are able to adjust their expectation so that they can retain their satisfaction, but in my opinion, they shouldn't have to. And so if we create a cultural shift, then maybe they won't have to, and they'll be able to to experience greater pleasure.
Jacqueline
You've talked about the societal structures and norms that have been built in to that advanced this orgasm gap and have people play these roles. Can you talk about what are the biological essentialist beliefs that are used to justify and perpetuate the orgasm gap?
Grace Wetzel
Yes, absolutely. I love this topic. There's a very commonly held belief that the orgasm gap is caused by biological or anatomical differences in the capacity to experience orgasm. And research shows that this is just not true at all right? Women experience orgasm during masturbation and about the same average timeframe as men, which is about four minutes. The clitoris and the penis are anatomical complementary structures, they derived from the same tissue, women orgasm at rates similar to men's when they're having sex with other women, when they're receiving oral sex and stimulating their clitoris during intercourse with men. And when they report pursuing their orgasm very strongly. So if the orgasm gap was a biological inevitability, we would not see it disappear, depending on context and in several contexts. Does that make sense?
Effy
Absolutely, yes, yes, yes, absolutely.
Grace Wetzel
And there is a biological difference in what is stimulated during penile vaginal intercourse. So for sis men, their main orgasm center, the penis is being stimulated by intercourse. But sis women's main orgasm center, the clitoris is not directly stimulated in the way that most women need to orgasm. So that is a biological difference. But it's actually more of a biological similarity, since the pianists and clitoris are homologous structures. But the reason that that's a problem is based on our cultural assumption that intercourse is the main and most important sex act. Like there are so many ways that we could organize our sexual experiences to prioritize the stimulation of both partners. Does that make sense?
Effy
Completely. It just made me realize that it's because we reduce sex or property for religious reasons to be making. And really, the penetrative sex is for baby making a novel pleasure. And pleasure sex is something that you need to it's like, there's almost like you have to have two to two different types of sex. You need to have sex for baby making, that needs to involve you know, hard penis and Yvette wet vagina as we call it, the show, and a male orgasm to make a baby. But that is not sex for pleasure. That's very functional sex and we need to kind of think maybe think about those things separately and think about okay, we're just having pleasure and we need to explore and and think of sex in a much bigger way. Versus we're having sex now to make a baby. Because that seems to be like that seems to be the two main differences.
Grace Wetzel
Totally and intercourse is penile vaginal intercourse is very pleasurable for very many people, but we tend to see it as, as the the only thing or the the main thing. And there's just Yeah, so many other ways that we could organize our sexuality. Yeah, broaden it and, and focus on pleasure more broadly. Makes me
Jacqueline
think about when we talk about losing our virginity that it is based on when did a penis enter a vagina? Like that is really what that means and within kind of the LGBTQ community. I've heard various answers when asking about losing your virginity and it feels much more kind of complicated and not clean, because the societal definition is very clean around what it should be.
Grace Wetzel
Yeah. And then And what also when you ask people to define sex, people don't yeah, they don't know how to define what counts. Yes. Yeah. And so some people think that other kinds of sex you know that they count that in their definition, and other people only count penile vaginal intercourse. But that language reflects the prioritization of intercourse as well and that we sub label everything that isn't intercourse. So oral sex, foreplay like all of the anal sex, all of these different words we've created And for any other sex act rather than just sex? Yeah, yeah,
Jacqueline
it makes me think back to high school years of doing all of the things except even like just the tip, exempt actual, so that you can continue to hold on to that name of Virgin. But you've literate, you've done so many other things. But you get to still call yourself a virgin? Because you haven't done that one thing and how wild that is?
Grace Wetzel
And what would it mean, if we defined a sexual debut for women as the first time they truly experienced pleasure from a partner? Like? What would that look like? Like? How might that shift women's perspective towards sex moving forward? Hmm.
Effy
Also, I think it depends on the context, right? So you can have a couple that might sort of complain and said, We haven't sex in a while, meaning they haven't had penetration in a while, but they've been cuddling and kissing and touching, and all that kind of stuff. And then the rhetoric is that we haven't sex in a long, we haven't had sex in a long time. But then if one of those couples were to do those things with somebody else, right, that eating now accounts, now, like having sex with somebody else, you're like, Well, I'm not sex. So I think it really does depend on context, as well, and how we feel about it. You know, the question that we ask all the time does 16 counts? You know, I think it just you need to explore the edges and really think about what sex means and what what we think it should mean, and also what it means within the context of our relationship. Yeah,
Jacqueline
I love the idea of relating naming, what is sex to pleasure, if it's both folks, or whoever's involved experience pleasure, because I kind of love that moment, in my mind, or I'm thinking, you know, heterosexual couple, and someone has asked, well, when's the last time you had sex? And, you know, the guy's like, last week? And she's like, it's been a few months? And how could that be? And she's like, because I have not experienced any pleasure. Few months. So we had sex, maybe, but I have not, I have not had sex with you.
Grace Wetzel
And to answer the rest of your question about the how the biological beliefs kind of perpetuate the orgasm gap, I think the reason that they're harmful is they they create a sort of it is the way it is attitude towards the orgasm gap, that it just can't be fixed, there's nothing that can be done about it, right? Because if the orgasm gap is a natural, quote, unquote, result of a biological difference, then people have this assumption that we can't do anything about it. So you'd be surprised how many conversations I've had with people were just disproving those ideas alone, including the expectation that women should orgasm from vaginal penetration, just disproving those ideas alone can totally shift their perspective on sex. So I do think that disproving biological justifications can have a really big impact.
Effy
I agree, I have facilitated a workshop in a country that is less sexually liberated, and my slide that pointed out how a penis and the colors are essentially the same organ, just organized differently was a paradigm shift that it completely shifted everybody in the room. And it was it became the focus of conversation. Like there's a whole bunch of other things that we're going to talk about. We people just locked on to that, about that for an hour and a half. And it just changed everything about what they think about their body, what they think about sex, what they think about pleasure. So absolutely, I think just having those like, which seems like such an obvious thing, when you when you introduce it to people who don't know it, and once they click onto what's going on, it just changes everything. And
Grace Wetzel
another little tidbit related that I feel like really blows people's mind. I think it was Dr. Laurie Mintz who said this, women often have sexual encounters where their clitoris is literally not touched like it's not stimulated at all. And that is the anatomical equivalent of a sexual encounter in which the penis is not touched. So when you go through a sexual encounter and you do not touch the clitoris, sis men can imagine a sexual encounter in which their penis is not touched. And you know, only there only their testicles are touched only their prostate is touched but their penis is not touched. That is what that kind of sex looks like.
Effy
That deserves
Jacqueline
a repeat
Unknown Speaker
again. I think we need
Jacqueline
to say that and that's gonna be the clip that's at the beginning. So sis men out there straight men just remember that if you have sex and do not touch the clitoris, it is as if you are having sex and your penis is never touched.
Grace Wetzel
Absolutely,
Effy
yes and sit with that for a while. Yes, yeah.
Grace Wetzel
And it was it was Dr. mins who said that first she she came up with that analogy.
Effy
It's so true. Like, it's so it's so true. And also, similarly that, you know, we talked about the way that we do touch the penis or like men understand that they have a penis, and they have a way that they like that penis to be touched and handled. So it's not that big of a, of a leap from that to be like, Oh, clitoris, and there's also ways to touch the clitoris in a way that is pleasure before that person, like, it's not that big of a leap. We just have that information gap, as well as an orgasm gap. So that otherwise when you when you frame it in that way, I can't think of a man who doesn't get it, you know, because it
Jacqueline
clicked. The clitoris is not like a mystical being. It's like a mystical creature like you have practice in your own orgasms when you are in your own body when you're masturbating. Try some of those things, and show that you know, hopefully, she'll be empowered to let you know whether or not that's working.
Grace Wetzel
Yeah, totally. And speaking of the information gap, I do feel like women are trained on how to stimulate the penis, like, they are expected to be a good performer and there, they are trained to do that. Not that men don't have expectations set on them. But it's mostly expectations for the vagina like intercourse as well as fingering the vagina. And there's there's so little information about they're kind of like training young men on how to stimulate the clitoris.
Jacqueline
Yes, yes. And to your point, oh, I'm thinking again about high school. And while the fingering experiences
Unknown Speaker
terrible, they were, there was this huge thing in high school. It's wild.
Jacqueline
And it was just like, worried like this this, like, you can't see what I'm doing with this gesture of just like madly very quickly jabbing. That's the work. You're doing having everybody be like, are we good? Did that work? Are
Unknown Speaker
you are you there?
Jacqueline
Hey, now actually, that's what happened.
Grace Wetzel
And not that not that people don't enjoy fingering or vaginal penetration doesn't feel good. But it's, you know, taught as sort of like the only thing
Jacqueline
Yes, yes, yes. Yes.
Effy
I'm now thinking this harshly even though we're right now we're very much talking about straight sex with sis people in heteronormative relationship. So that's partly what we're talking about. But I also can see how that can somehow resonate into other experiences where this myth that lesbian sex isn't real sex is the thing, right? Oh, you know, it shows up in places like when people are couples are opening up, they're like, it's okay, if we have another woman because that doesn't really count as sex. Right? You know, or it's okay. It's like one penis policy is something that comes up a lot with people who are like thinking about opening up their relationship, because they don't think women having sex doesn't count. I think it also penetrates probably excuse upon penetrates, also into gay male experiences, that there has to be penetration, and then there has to be no slacks. And that's something that that if they're not, then it's not, it's not real sex. So I think this idea that is rooted in the heterosexual experience actually kind of spreads to all sexual experiences.
Grace Wetzel
Totally. And when women have sex with other women, their orgasm rates are similar to men's across sexual orientations. And I think that one of the reasons why that is, is because they're free from these heteronormative expectations that define what sex is supposed to look like. So when you're when you're freed from those sexual scripts, you're able to organize a sexuality that works for everyone involved. And so I feel like heterosexual couples can learn a lot from queer relationships where it for example, in lesbian relationships, a turn taking culture that often happens, where all please you and then you please me. So heterosexual couples, yeah, I think I think can learn a lot from other relationship structures.
Jacqueline
And just to note, too, how insidious the socialization is, because I've, you know, exclusively we now have been with women for about a decade now. And in the beginning, definitely was still watching my curves and tucking in the stomach and replicating the same thing. So until at some point, you know, my now wife was like, What are you doing? Like, what is this thing that you're doing right now? Like, isn't this the move like doing my like, you know, but outpost's? Isn't this what I'm supposed to be doing? She's like, what's happening right now? What is that noise that you're making? Like, what were you doing? So that would be the case? Or if my partner wanted to my female partner wanted to have sex and I didn't, there's still set felt like a sense of pressure like, oh, I shouldn't say no, because that was something that was socialized you know, my male relationships. I'm wondering if Is there is there research around the myths about women's desire to have sex because you know, we understand and know right men wanted men want to More men need it, that's a part of the narrative, right? If they don't have an orgasm, like something will shut down in their body. Right, exactly blue balls will occur and their genitalia will like explode inside of their pants. That to the point that even men need it to the degree that they cannot control themselves, that women around the world have to cover their body, because the very sight of their body will be too much for the male desire to handle. So we have this one side where it's like men need it to this extreme degree. And then this other side where I think the myth is women could take it or leave it.
Grace Wetzel
I'm glad you brought that up. Because there there's some research by Terry Conley about how there's an essential confound in any comparison of sex, any research on sex that's comparing men and women in the fact that women speaking in a cisgender largely heterosexual lens, women are having a sexual experience that is inherently less desirable. So how can we possibly compare men's and women's desire when everything about women's socialization and sexual experiences makes sex less desirable for them? And I think the analogy that she uses in the paper is comparing a an Italian meal at a fancy Italian restaurant to Chef Boyardee. So women are being served Chef Boyardee. And then they're being asked, Why don't you like this as much as I do?
Effy
Yes, yes. I think that's yeah, it's so good. It's so true. If it's not good, like, why would I want it in the first place?
Jacqueline
Right? I do not want the jabbing and so you're right, I could absolutely take or leave the jab, egg or leave it mainly more than taking it. But you're right. If we had the option to have something that was pleasure base, that there would be more desire around it. That makes so much sense.
Grace Wetzel
Yes. And there is research that the more women expect an orgasm or the more women expect pleasure, those gender differences go away. Hmm. Women have more desire when they expect more pleasure out of the encounter, which makes total sense. Yeah.
Effy
Right. And the more you have it, the more you want it as well. So the more you want, the more you have it, the more it's good, the more you want it. So it's not you know, it's not necessarily that we don't want it. We're just not getting enough of the good stuff.
Jacqueline
Right. Yes, exactly. Yeah. We've we've had conversations on this podcast about the inequitable division of labor that happens in households, particularly in heterosexual households, and women historically, taking on more of the burden of domestic duties and child care. And so then, at the end of the night, landing into bed more exhausted, nor on her mind, more distraction. And then the guy's like, let's do some stuff and is shocked and disappointed, and has now created the myth of the headache right? This the stereotype of women getting a headache, because she is so tired and exhausted again and things in her mind that she does not want to have Chef Boyardee.
Grace Wetzel
Again, how how all of these gender roles and norms they all intersect. They all create all of these outcomes in combination with each other.
Jacqueline
Yeah. I'm wondering then what is it can we do to combat this? So as individuals in our relationships, but also collectively in our society, a societal level? How can we address and level out the playing field between the genders when it comes to orgasms, right?
Effy
How do you it's your vision of orgasm equality for all?
Grace Wetzel
Yes. How do we get there? I'm so glad you asked. We know that according to research number one thing is clitoral stimulation. Right, more clitoral stimulation is key. Most orgasm problems come from not enough or not the right kind of clitoral stimulation relatedly greater variety of sexual activities and greater length of the sexual encounter, which does not mean longer intercourse or lasting longer, but longer encounters from start to finish. So all of that means more oral sex, more manual stimulation or stimulation with hands. more use of vibrators right at turn taking culture, I'll make you feel good then you make me feel good. Basically incorporating and prioritizing those acts that are most likely to make your partner orgasm. The other big key is sexual communication. You won't know what acts are most likely to make your partner orgasm unless you talk about it right. So talking to your partner to see what feels best for them how they can guide you. And this can be larger talks about desires that happen outside of the bedroom but can also be smaller cues within an encounter, to signal in and encourage your partner about what you like. And then we've talked about the entitlement gap. So all partners need to feel entitled to experience orgasm. And so men in this case can indicate to their partner that their pleasure is a priority to them in the relationship, whether that's a casual sex fling, or whether that is a long term marriage that has been going on for decades. And then finally, just as I've said before, just rejecting the sexual scripts that tell us how a sexual encounter is supposed to go and how sex is supposed to look, and instead, instead working with your partner to find whatever works for your relationship.
Jacqueline
I love that. Yeah, I love that list.
Grace Wetzel
I do want to make a quick caveat that there is research on people, particularly sis men, pressuring or coercing their partners to orgasm. So obviously, that's not okay. So make sure that while you're actively prioritizing your partner's pleasure, you're not placing a pressure on your partner to have an orgasm, that you're listening and responding to what they want.
Effy
Also, that pleasure doesn't mean orgasm. I think that's right, we need to pleasure is a much bigger thing that orgasm is a part of doesn't mean that somebody didn't have pleasure just because they didn't have an orgasm, maybe decoupling that idea. When there's more of like this fluid, I mean, right now imagining like his bubble that you hang out in with orgasm being one of the elements that's floating within that bubble. And focusing leisure doesn't mean focusing on orgasm, it means focusing that makes sure everyone's having fun, whatever that fun looks like.
Grace Wetzel
Yeah, absolutely. And there is this expectation that orgasms should be the ultimate goal. And I and I don't think that's, you know, a productive mindset to have. So it's, it's important to, to not prioritize orgasm alone. But orgasm is a useful tool for us to assess like this difference in pleasure that exists. And for us to quantify it in some way that we can say, like, hey, look, there's a problem here. And we should be addressing this problem. And I also do think orgasm is important in a sense as well, because women come not to expect it. So we do want to encourage that it is something that can be expected.
Effy
I also think just culturally, changing the idea of what like, right now, for men, it's like number of people, especially younger men, number of women they've had sex with is is like the, the thing they talk about, and I think changing that narrative and talking about how much pleasure in what you're able to provide. And that being a point of pride rather than just like you when you come in people you've had sex with but like, what, like, what are your What are your skills? You know, like, how are you able to find your way around the clitoris? Are you able to have a conversation with your partner with your partner, even on a on a hookup? situation? I think really putting value in those skills. And putting that conversation out there when they dialogue out there is also I think might help towards cultural change.
Jacqueline
Yes, yeah, absolutely. And for women to Stop faking it, we need to stop pretending because they
Unknown Speaker
think that they're it's good. No, not. Yeah, don't fake it.
Grace Wetzel
Dr. Laurie mints also said faking an orgasm teaches your partner to do exactly what doesn't work for you.
Effy
fake friends Ah,
Unknown Speaker
so many good sound bites. So many things that I feel like needs to be turned into like memes and need to print out and like put around their walls?
Grace Wetzel
Absolutely. I actually have a poster on my wall that says Stop faking orgasms.
Unknown Speaker
Love it. Can
Effy
you share with us and we can put it in? We can put it?
Grace Wetzel
Yes, I should. I should tag the artist as well. So I should I should get the image from her website and then share it with you. Yeah,
Effy
that's fantastic. And nice. Before we wrap with you,
Jacqueline
is there anything else that you want to make sure to cover or say that we haven't yet?
Grace Wetzel
I think I had one more thing on the last question. Yeah, so talking about what we can do to address the orgasm gap. You also asked about society. And so I think societally speaking, I think we need a broader culture shift, in which, you know, we need to value and expect women's orgasm and women's pleasure just as much as men's. Right now sex is synonymous with men's orgasm. Men's orgasm is the expected result of sex and women's orgasm is seen as a bonus. So I think heterosexual sex needs to be completely reorganized, to be about mutual pleasure and whatever form that takes, which means taking weigh this primary focus on intercourse alone. And I think women can do that by advocating for themselves. Men can do that by prioritizing their partner's pleasure. And we all can do that just by continuing to have these conversations. Here here.
Effy
This is fantastic. You're amazing. Yes.
Jacqueline
Before we wrap though, we do want to ask you a few questions just to get to know you a little bit, and have our listeners get to know you. And so, first question to you is, what is one piece of advice that you would give to your younger self about love sex relationships?
Grace Wetzel
Not specifically to my younger self alone, but I think I would tell young women everywhere that their pleasure matters, and they are entitled to sexual and romantic relationships that are fulfilling to them, where they are truly valued and respected. And also, I would tell them that there is nothing wrong with you if you do not orgasm from your vagina. Yes, I think a lot of young women need to hear that. And all people would always need to hear that.
Effy
Yes, yes, yes. Yes. And I'm so glad you said this on our show. We'll send it out wide. And hopefully, you'll fall on on the right years. Okay. How do you challenge the status quo?
Grace Wetzel
I challenge the status quo by questioning everything about how heterosexual sex is currently organized.
Jacqueline
Yeah, there needs to be a lot of questioning. So you're doing good work. Thank you. Thank you. Because the impact of that to your point Fe earlier is the impact of that goes beyond more broadly than heterosexual sex, because you know, our societies is based on that framework. So
Grace Wetzel
all the systems are intertwined. Yeah.
Jacqueline
And then what are you curious about lately?
Grace Wetzel
I am curious about the factors that influence women's decisions to pursue or not pursue orgasm in their sexual encounters. That's a new line of research that I've been working on lately that I'm I'm very excited about.
Jacqueline
Yeah. We'd love to talk to you more about that. Yeah. Come
Effy
back. Come back when you know, when you have answers come back.
Jacqueline
This has been really great. Thank you so much, Grace. We appreciate you and your time and your work. Thank you. I'm
Grace Wetzel
so happy to share this information on a platform that has a mission that I feel so strongly about.
Effy
Beautiful, thank you.
Jacqueline
If you want to learn more about grace Wetzel, you can visit her website Grace weitzel.com. And find her on Instagram at orgasm underscore equality underscore and on Twitter at Grace underscore Wetzel. If you want to weigh in on this topic, share if the research reflects your experience, or just want to connect with other foxy listeners, Head to facebook and join our Facebook group at we are curious foxes. If you've enjoyed this topic and want to hear more episodes like this, sign up for our newsletter. Every week, we send out an email with our newest episode, along with related episodes that we think that you'll enjoy. At the end of the month, we share a digest with amazing YouTube videos, books, articles, Instagram reels, tic TOCs blog posts, and episodes from other podcasts that we love. It is a beautifully packaged bundle of goodies that you can rely on at the end of each month. To sign up go to we are curious foxes.com backslash newsletter. If you found this or any of our episodes interesting, helpful or even funny, please share our podcast with a friend quickly rate the show leave a comment, subscribe on Apple podcast or follow us on Spotify and Stitcher. This is only going to take a few seconds of your time but it will have a big impact for us. Our beautifully colored website is filled with reading lists, blog posts and past episodes that can help you indulge your curiosity around love sex and relationship you should visit us at We are curious foxes.com If you want to support the show, join us on Patreon. At we are curious foxes, where you can find that many episodes, podcasts extras that couldn't make it to the show and over 50 videos from educator led workshops. And finally, let us know that you're listening by sharing a comment a story or question you can email us or send us a voice memo to listening at we are curious foxes.com Or you can record a question for the show by calling 646-450-9079
Effy
This episode is produced by Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla with help from Yağmur Erkişi. Our editor is Nina Pollack, who masterfully closes the gap between potential and perfection. Our intro music is composed by dev Saha, we are so grateful for the work and we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends. Anybody with questions? I have you. I have the script. I have me. Yay. We're all here.
Effy
We're all here everyone.
Jacqueline
Okay, good. You know what it is? I still want to laugh.
Unknown Speaker
I still have a laugh in me. So it's Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Love. Where do you want to live?
Unknown Speaker
I don't know. I still would love him for it. I was like trying to put the laugh away. I was like, Let me hold you inside. But no, I needed to get it out.
Effy
With Dr. Justin most. With Dr. Justin most. Normally you can't say anything
Unknown Speaker
I know I was. I was actually so happy. I was like It's not me.
Effy
Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic. We solely aim to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind, and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends.
(outro)
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