Ep 6: Know Thyself (Live)

Illustration of a girl in Russian babuskas — Art by @vangodoodle

The first step towards a healthy and thriving relationship of any kind is to know yourself. When people talk about trying to find themselves, have you ever wonder what the hell that means. Or more specifically, how does one go about actually “finding” themselves.

From sexual or relational orientation to the way we show and receive love, knowing who we are and how we show up in the world is key to designing relationships we can thrive in. Effy chats with a diverse set of Foxes on this live panel.

To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla on Instagram.

If you have a question that you would like to explore on the show, reach out to us and we may answer your question on one of our upcoming episodes. Leave us a voicemail at 646-450-9079 or email us at listening@wearecuriousfoxes.com

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TRANSCRIPT:

Effy

Hi, my name is Effy Blue. And this is the Curious Fox podcast. Curious Fox is a community for those who challenge the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. Every month, we pick a theme and good in these subjects. I invite a diverse set of panelists and we bravely explored the theme through personal stories. This month, we decided to tackle what it takes to know thyself. From Plato to Rumi to Buddha, every thinker, lover and teacher offers the same wisdom. And dare I say, the same challenge? Know thyself. It's certainly where I start with every client. It's the first step of relationship by design. I'd go as far as to say, it's the only way to thrive in a relationship, especially in a non monogamous relationship. What does it take to know thyself? Why does this message go through ages, teachings, cultures, embraced by all those who are dedicated to living a fuller, more authentic life? How do you peel the layers of social conditioning, family expectations, peer pressure, cultural doctrine, gender roles, and get to the authentic you? How does that then translate your relationships? Every day, I work with people telling me deep down they've always known that non monogamous, kinky, queer or non conforming in some way, but didn't act on it. And they're no longer willing to ignore these parts of themselves. They want to transform their relationships to be in line with their truth. This month at the curious Fox social, we heard from crafting your path, Jacqueline Missler, who as well as taking a moderating role, shared a story of how she came to realization that she was living a life that was dictated by outside factors and not in line with their inner truth. How she went from living this idealized relationship with her husband and daughter, to now living part time with their wife, and part time with their partner, and co parenting with her ex husband. Jackie shared not only how she found their authentic self and crafted a life that is more in line with it, but made a career out of helping others. We also heard from Alexis, a gender fluid lesbian woman who's currently in her first non monogamous relationship. Alexis shared how she struggled with her gender identity from an early age, consider transitioning, and only after a lot of experimenting and soul searching, she got to know herself. For the first time, instead of moderating. I sat on the panel to both share my story and my expertise, from corporate success to total disillusionment, defining the life, the relationships and the purpose that makes me feel fulfilled today. In this episode, you're going to hear a ton of energy, wonderful shares, and great questions from the boxes in the room. Curious Fox socials are not and will never be the final word on any topic. We solely aim to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind. And we'll look forward to hearing your feedback. Enjoy the episode.

Jacqueline Misla

So the way this is going to work is we're each going to share a little bit of our stories. I'm going to ask some folks and I'm gonna ask them some questions. And then I'm gonna pass it to you and you guys are gonna be able to ask questions. That sound good. Okay. Yes, so with that being said, I'm gonna pass it to Effy.

Effy

Sure. Welcome everyone. All of us here have definitely have a journey into non monogamy, which we're going to talk about. And I know there's a lot of new people here who are exploring, so we're gonna talk all about that as well. I was monogamous for a long time, like most people, I just didn't know anything else was available. And I didn't do a very good job I have I call myself I used to be a serial infidel, I used to be serial infinite infidelity. So I would have these relationships during which I would be very happy and content and you know, at a peak place where I would then want to go and explore other relationships. So and that's, that's, that's sort of a lot of people cheat out of discontent and dissatisfaction. And that's not where it came from me. It was like, actually, I was very happy. I felt that if I wasn't happy in a relationship that I could exit, that wasn't my that wasn't my problem. I wanted to like once I was happy and settled, I wanted to go and explore the things and I would go and do that. And then sort of Very soon after, I would confess, and that never went very well. There was heartbreak and a lot of tears. And I have been married before. So also a lot of paperwork. So, along that journey I have come to me I've come, I had decided that at some point that I wasn't good at relationships, like that was my, that was my conclusion. And I stopped. I was like, I don't want to do that anymore. I'm not very good. I don't wanna hurt anybody anymore. And I poured myself into a career, which is a corporate one before this. And I did really well, when you don't have any other distractions, and you're just like pouring yourself into a career. It was great. For a decade, I traveled around the world, made a lot of money. And at some point, it kind of came crashing down for me, I moved to New York, a bunch of things go, I did move to New York. And I stumbled, and I say that I literally stumbled into a house and like, met the non monogamous community in New York City. And I was like, Whoa, and then that was like a lightbulb moment. For me, I was like, oh, it's not that I'm not good at relationships. I'm just not good at this one type of relationship, which I think is the only thing that's available. But here are a bunch of people who are doing a different type of relationship and different types of relationships. And it looks like they're thriving, and they look like normal people, you know. So in what I mean by that is like people that I can relate to right people that I had things in common with, that I could have conversations with, and I felt very included. And that was a moment of like, Oh, there's more to it than I know. And that was like the thread that I kind of like held on and pulled as I did a bunch of things unraveled, at the time was very unpleasant. Now, I'm so glad I did that. The idea of relationship by design distilled from this idea of life by design, I, as I pulled this thread and my life unraveled, I decided to sort of slam the brakes on everything and try to figure everything out. And I was very lucky that I had enough of a nest egg to like, Stop, just stop and kind of rip into my life. So I quit my job. Well, I took a sabbatical. And I moved out of my $4,000 apartment, the waterfront, and the skills my life down, and I really wanted to look every aspect of it, you know, from my wardrobe, my three piece work suits, to my friendships, to the quick dials on my phone, like, who are my quick dials on my phone? Who are the first five people that come up on my text thread, right? And what are those conversations are about, and then my relationships, where my previous relationships, where my relationship, like, who would the type of people that I'm attracted to today. So I really kind of ripped into my life. And through that process, the thing that really crazy came up to the top for me is the relationship part of it. The other stuff that I could be pragmatic about and like, a career change, like I can do that, like I can have, I can have a systematic approach to that and, and, you know, scaling down my life, like, it just seemed, I could manage, manage, manage all that. The part that was like, big for me was relationships. And as I delved into that, I realized that I wanted to be non monogamous, and that's why I was that's what I was seeking. But I wasn't, didn't not want to be in a relationship, I want it to be multiple relationships, and I want to be more committed to multiple people and develop these relationships and having loving, committed relationships. And I wanted to know how to do that. So I spent two years trying to figure that out. I read listened to attended watched anything and everything that I can get my hands on, and found the community which was huge for me, spoke to as many people as I could and everything, every single angle that I could think of what is it like to be a solo Polly? So like, you're so you identify as a solo person? And you're dating a bunch of people, right? Or what is it like to date somebody as a primary partner? And then they date somebody else? Like, what does that feel like? What is it? What does it feel like when I date somebody else and handle my partner? What is that? You know, we've done a whole section on this, like, what is that? Mysterious relationship with your metamorph? So your lovers lover, right? So my partner's partner and I, like what is that relationship? Like? Um, so I, you know, I that's kind of what I focused on. And I'm, I'm a natural nerd. So I would that's like, that was my, like, that's what I'm doing. And through that process, I redesigned my life and my relationships, and I really wanted to push everything, everything that I learned on to like everybody else who was in the same situation as I did that. It was amazing to like, meet a bunch of people going, yes, it doesn't fit, like what do we do now? Right? And I was like, Ah, here's that process. And that's kind of that's been my transition. And the way that I got to know myself and as I as I got to know myself, that's how I ended up where I am today.

Jacqueline Misla

Thank you. Alright, so we'll, I'll ask her some questions a little bit, you get to ask her some questions and a little bit before that, I'm gonna pass it to Alexis, you have a different type of journey of self discovery, and some of them are very different type of journey.

Alexis

So, I mean, you know, it's Know thyself, right. And it took a very, very long time for me to realize who I was. And a lot of my struggles were straight around gender identity, sexuality, and, you know, like, if you're not confident yourself, you don't know who you are, then how are you going to be with somebody else, and just all of my relationships are going to shit. Like, they're just awful. And, you know, like, who's the common factor and all of my fucked up relationships? I am. So I was like, alright, something's not working out so well. So it's time to like, sit back and to, like, do some like self exploring. So, um, so I'll get into like pronouns a little bit. So, for the most part, I go by female pronouns, depends on the mood, I guess. So, you know, this was something that I battled with for a really long time. Ever since I was a kid. Like, I remember being like four years old and being like, I don't like the things that girls like, I don't like, you know, wearing dresses, you know, like, I want to play with boys toys, and I want to do boy things and wear boy clothes. And I swear to God, every time somebody gave me a fucking Barbie for Christmas, that hadn't got ripped off, and was probably like, what the GI Joes like somewhere like it was just like, absolutely awful. It was, you know, it was a constant struggle. Going from like, just like being as young as like four years old. And, you know, in elementary school, I was very alone, because, you know, like, kids, kids or kids, like kids can be like, kind of cruel, you know, so I didn't fit in with the girls. And they're like, oh, go away. And I was like, Cool. I want to hang out with the boys. And they were like, oh, go away. So you know, it left me feeling very alone. And, you know, on top of that, I was an only child, I am an only child. So not only was I alone at school, but I was really like alone at home as well. And it was, it was really, really, really tough to deal with, you know, with all the rejection. And I remember like, at nine years old, I had like my first serious bout of depression, like nine years old, like, I'm not even a double digits. Yeah, bro. And I'm like, Oh, my God, like, and I remember like having suicidal thoughts. I like nine years old, you know. And, you know, like, I continued to do me and go against my grain. And I remember one day, my father got mad at me for something. And he was like, like, for doing like, Boy things. This was like the 90s. So you know, everything was so gendered still back then. And I remember he said to me, he was like, Well, if you want to do boy, things, act like a boy, we'll go to the hospital, and we'll make you a boy. And he was like, No fucking shit. Like, that's a real thing. And I was like, Oh, my God, and even, like, I feared this man. Like, I'm like, I'm Hispanic, like, you know, like, they don't play like Hispanic fathers don't play. And I didn't express excitement. I was like, Really, I was just like, oh, okay, but I held on to it. And I found comfort in it. And it actually like, kept me going. So it's something that I always hold on to, but I still struggled. I still struggled with that loneliness, loneliness, I still struggle with the gender identity. And I'm one of those people where, you know, I was born gay. I've known since I was like, four years old, I had a crush on my pre K teacher, like, come on, like, I was just like hearts in my eyes, like, oh my god, I love this woman, I'm gonna marry her. And, you know, as like, time progress, like I still dealt with the struggles and high school was really tough. Like, I went to a small Catholic high school, when I say small, there was like, 300 students in the whole school. So I was like, and it was obvious, you know, like, I presented more masculine, you know, like, I started slowly coming out, and some people were accepting and other people weren't. But you know, thankfully, I had my my small group of friends that helped me get through that. And, honestly, graduation from high school was a fucking relief. Like, people were like, Oh, I wish I could go back in time. I'm like, why would you want to do that? Like, it's now like, so then I got into college and I actually started finding, you know, I was exposed to more LGBTQ people, more gender fluid people and on top of that, I went to art school, I went to Fashion Institute of Technology. So the gays were out there were like, Yes, I was like, awesome. I love this. I found my tribe found my people. But there was still that question of like gender. You know, like I identified as female even though I presented masculine but something just didn't fit right like I felt like so imagine like, remember, like gym class and your teacher like being like, I don't know, fourth grade, oh, we're gonna play red rubber boys on that side of the room girls on that side of the room. And I'm like, Cool, where do I go? Because I didn't fit well with the girls. And they were like, it'll go away. And I didn't fit well with the boys because they were like, it'll go away, you know. And then finally, once I was in college, I was like, wow, like, I don't have to fit in one of these two boxes, I can go in any fucking box that I want to go into. And, you know, like, as I got older, I really started to question myself. And, you know, I spoke to friends I spoke to, you know, I went to therapy a lot. And it was, it was an ongoing process. It was a huge, ongoing process. And it's something that I still like, kind of struggle with. It's gotten a lot better. But, you know, it wasn't really until like my late 20s, where I started really thinking about transition, like, do I want to transition I remember I cried a whole weekend, just like to my partner at the time, I was like, I don't know what I want to do. And the thing that she said, she was like, I will love you. Regardless, I was like, thanks. But like, I really still don't know what to do. I was like, I appreciate that. And then like, I just, I used every single resource possible, I read things online, I, you know, joined a bunch of like, subreddits. And finally, I was like, You know what, like, I'm just gonna just start being mean, start living for me, and I don't have to fit in any of these boxes. So what happened? Like I chopped my hair off. I started dressing like differently, what what was more comfortable for me, and you know what happened? I got so much attention. Like, it was insane. It's just like, women were like flocking to me. They were like, Oh, my God, Alexis. And I'm just like, and it wasn't the fact that I cut my hair that I started dressing differently. You know what happened, I got confident, because I finally felt good in my own skin. And that gave me that got me so much attention. And, you know, like, throughout my 20s I was actually like, I was pretty promiscuous. Like I was bouncing around, like, everywhere, all the time. I was I was having like, three, four days a week. And then, you know, I finally settled down. I was like, Well, I'm 27. You know, I think it's time maybe. So I was in a relationship with this person. And something had shifted in my life. And, you know, I started having like, these really bad thoughts and turns out that, you know, like, something was wrong with me mentally. So, you know, my partner at the time, she was like, I want you to really go see a doctor like to get some stuff addressed. So I said, Okay, so I go to a doctor, he's like, cool. He was like, you're bipolar, and you're depressed. And he's like, Oh, by the way, we're gonna sprinkle a little like generalized anxiety disorder in there, too. I was like, oh, okay, cool. So I got on medication and the side effects of the medication, I gained a lot of weight. Now I'm Hispanic came. So again this way and it went to my ass, my hips and my thighs. So I was just like, I really like that's why I never had body dysphoria before. But now I started I was like, this is I don't like this. And on top of that, because, uh, you know, like, my hair is short. Like, I dress more masculine, I'm very androgynous. So I was getting misgendered. So like, imagine like looking at yourself in the mirror and being like, I have this super feminine body that I can't stand. And meanwhile, I fucking go outside. And some dudes like, Excuse me, sir. And I'm like, I was like, so conflicted about it. Like I had no idea how to handle a no idea what to do with it. I remember I went to a nail salon. I shit you not. I went to get my eyebrows done. And this woman says to me, she looks at me, like kind of cocked her head. And she's like, Are you a boy or girl? And I was like, what? I didn't even know what to say. And I was like, all I know, for a fact. I was like, This bit is not getting a tip. I was like, I'm not going back here. You know? And, you know, it really, like ate me up. But, you know, like, I got stable on my medication. Thankfully, I actually switched medication. So I lost all the weight. So I was like, Cool back to being skinny. Again, life is good. And then, you know, like, I really started being like, okay, like, I'm gonna start exploring gender and gender identity. And, you know, I luckily, like I had made some trans friends and they it was like, really, really enlightening. Just to hear, like their experiences, and then I noticed like when I realized that I wasn't trans at all, if anything like and I don't like to use labels, but like I'm more gender fluid than anything like gender doesn't even exist. gender is a social construct. It's something that was put into place by society, like, did you know that like, pink actually used to be the color for boys? And blue used to be the color for girls, but some asshole was like, Nah, we're gonna switch that. And it's just like, what's, what's the point? What's the purpose of that? So yeah, you know, as as time went on, and you know, I started being honest with myself, and I started being honest with, with other people. And, you know, like, all those struggles that I had, like, I'm thankful for every single one of them, because if I didn't go through them, and the struggles that I still go through, I wouldn't be who I am today. And like that, in itself is priceless, because I found myself through it. And because of it, like, I'm in an awesome relationship now. And the relationship I'm in now is actually the first Go figure. The like, I can actually I feel more comfortable and even more like, apt to show my feminine side is not fucking crazy. Like, this whole time I'm Balliol I want to be a guy like life would just be easier. Nobody knows me and like, meanwhile, you know, like, the person I'm with now is like, I feel your feminine energy. And I'm like, cool. I like that. Like, that's cool. And you know, it goes back and forth. And like, to me, honestly, that ebb and flow is so fucking beautiful. And I am so grateful for it. So well, we'll talk about it more.

Effy

Thank you. Yeah.

Jacqueline Misla

You should know, this is the first time Alexis is sharing her story. So well done. Yeah. So before I ask him a few questions, I'll tell you a little bit about my journey. And then this way, you can ask me questions if you'd like as well. So for and I'm a writer, so I'm my stuff is written down. So for most of my life, I there was a difference between how I felt and how I behaved. I'm Hispanic was religious, the oldest child. So there was a lot of expectations around what I should do and what I shouldn't do. And I was really clear on that. And so from a young age, I was aware of two things. Number one, people had no idea what they were talking about. But number two, there was a game. And in order to be successful, I had to play it. And so I created two selves, there was the person that I presented on the outside, and there was the person who felt a certain way and had like a secret life on the inside. And honestly, I thought it was really clever about it. So on the outside, I was monogamous. And I was the ideal partner. If you get to know me, you know that not only do I come to understand what the game is, but I played a win. And so there was expectations and I would always exceed expectations. So not only was I monogamous I was the best God down partner you would ever meet. But on the side, and inside, I always knew that I was on monogamous always no. And that would seep out of me sometimes, and I would engage in secret unsanctioned experiences. On the outside, I knew that a lady should be dainty, and eat lightly, but on the inside, I was hungry. And so I would have many nights of eating like cannolis to myself, secretly. I even had two prom dresses, there was the one that I wore in the house with pictures and the one that I changed into for the party. So there was a lot of like, this is how I'm going to be because I know that that's what people want of me. But then the part of me that was an inside needed to be fed, and so it seep out in secret ways. So but there was another duality that was happening. So even though I was crafting this dual life and thought where I was being clever about it, there was a duality of on the outside, I looked really happy. And on the inside, I was tortured. And I felt miserable. There's only so long that you can pretend to be somebody and show you representative and not feel terribly lonely. And so if you look at my writing and my art to my adolescence, in particular, it tells a story of someone who is depressed, and someone who's hurting themselves. While that was happening, I was a leader at church, and I was on all the clubs in school, and I was the oldest of three and like the the role model, sibling and daughter. So I continued to keep these two separate lives. And by the age of 30, I had built a beautiful life for myself. I had a great husband, we were in a monogamous relationship. I had a beautiful little daughter, I had a huge apartment, I had an important job, I had done all the things, I checked all the boxes, I'd won, I was winning. And I felt like that life didn't fit me. No matter how hard I tried, no matter how happy I thought that I would be with this life that I had crafted, I was not happy. And so through a series of realizations that we can get into at some point tonight, I realized that I needed to create a new life for myself, and untangle and unweave this life that I had built. And so I finally reached a point where the pain of pretending was worse than the pain of whatever was on the other side of change. So I changed. My ex husband and I got a divorce, we are now great co parents. So that's fantastic. I eventually got married to a woman, we are in a non monogamous relationship, I changed my role at work to focus more on strategy, I moved and I changed my parenting style. And this is how one of the ways I knew that that happened for me, because when we are young, are our parents that people care about us want us to be successful. And so often what that looks like is and this is what I was doing to my daughter should sit down, relax, calm down, sit, don't touch that don't write, it's a lot of do this, make yourself smaller in order to fit and be successful, right. And so to be successful, meant don't do lots of things. And I was doing that to her, don't do this calm down, relax. And what I realize now that for her to be successful in the world, means that she needs to know herself deeply, because honestly, the world that I am preparing her for will be a different world when she is older. And the more that she is deeply rooted in who she is, the more that she will be able to navigate any space. And so instead of saying, now, don't do this, don't do that. We have more conversations around, okay, what's happening for you. We're in urine, you know, we're in the grocery store. So we're not going to do that. But I feel like your body needs to move, let's figure out a way that that can happen, right. And so it's more of a conversation around who she is. So six years later, after that realization, I had a whole new life, and then don't don't done. Within a span of two months, my amazing job was eliminated. And my amazing wife was having an emotional affair, even though we were in an open relationship. And I had the wind kicked out of me. So I had gone through all the things right, the first change had me confront all the external expectations. I dismantled those, I rebuilt something. And now there's new battle was my inner demons, a fear and doubt and shame, because when you built everything, and then if it gets taken away from you, you're left with yourself. And that was not pleasant, to be left with myself. And so my second journey was about getting comfortable just being with myself. And so once again, I had to rebuilt. And I went another journey of self exploration. And now it has been two years since that point, and my wife and I are an amazing place, the best place that we've ever been. I am in an incredible relationship with another phenomenal person who has helped me tap even deeper into who I am. I have worked that's aligned with my passion as a strategist and a coach. And I still struggle, but I am living closer to the surface of my skin than I ever have before. So that's my story. So I'm gonna ask a few questions. And then I'm going to see if you guys have any questions for our folks. So I want to start with I'm going to start with you Effy. How did you know? So how is it how is it you're navigating through the world? You she at one point told me remember the Hopi? Hopefully it is okay to share. You'll you'll tell me afterwards after I've shared that speaking about speed dial that you had the Saks Fifth Avenue personal shopper as well as on your speed dial. So how do you go from that life? And like, which is pretty incredible to realizing? No, actually, like how did you know? Yeah.

Effy

It felt it felt like I was a felt like, and I still get this feeling sometimes, and I know that I'm not in my own. Like, if I'm not living my authentic truth, it feels like I'm gonna turn inside out. Like that's kinda that's like a tangible feeling of like, I'm going to turn inside out that my insides get really really big and they do want to push out and then I just feel like, I imagined that I'm going to like become inside out and it's it started as something that I would ignore and distract myself with work and I would ignore and you know, distract was about socializing, I would ignore with like, my, the things I had to get done. And I and I, one of the reasons why I did so well that work is because it was an attempt for distraction. So I didn't feel that feeling which, you know, is noble one, right? When you're saying, You know what, I have an amazing job. I get to travel around the world. I'm living in Asia for a year I was living in Africa for a year I was like traveling around Europe for three years and like I'm doing really well my check my paychecks are doing really, you know, coming in. I bought my apartment in London, you know, and then like, you know, it's it feels like you're doing the right thing, even though it is ultimately a distraction. For me. It felt like it was a distraction from this feeling of like I'm going to turn inside out any minute. And it got to a point where I thought there's nothing I can do especially when And I, for me actually become the most acute when I realized there was another way of being right. So when I found that non Monogamy was an option, when I found out and a different life was an option, then it became really unbearable because I was like, it's there. I'm just like not, I'm just not going there. So I came to a point where I couldn't ignore anymore. And that's, that's okay, it was a very physical and I still get it. Sometimes if I'm like, off kilter, I still feel that I'm gonna turn inside out feeling.

Jacqueline Misla

One of the things that Fe has taught me that I think is really important to this work is this idea of when you see other people who are living a life that's different than yours, and they are thriving, it gives you inspiration and permission to do it differently. And so I actually started off as a client of FeS. So remember that story about me and my wife? You know, I was one of the people at two in the morning, who's like googling everything, and Abby's website comes up, and we schedule, you know, a call, and then we started to go to her as a relationship coach, and our relationship then evolved over time, and we began working together. So, Alexis, can you relate to the feeling of was it did it feel tangible for you in the same way that it did for Fe? Like, did you feel it in your body? Oh, no.

Alexis

Like, the thing is, you know, like, I wasn't really sure, like, my life is full of uncertainties always was, you know, because I just didn't know. But the one thing that, you know, like looking at my peers, looking at my friends, like, I was just trying to figure out like, why am I having such a hard time? Like, why isn't everybody else having a hard time? Why am I constantly going through this? Why, why why, like, why am I like, constantly in tears and feeling anxious and depressed? And like, I knew something wasn't right. But I didn't know what the something was. And it just took exploration. And it's literally like, I just threw things at the wall, and whatever, you know, decided to stick I was like, Alright, cool. The things that didn't work, I got rid of the things that did work, or I wanted to work up, I hold on to, you know, but there wasn't like, I didn't know for sure. It was just a matter of it was just part of the journey, really.

Jacqueline Misla

So it sounds like for you, there was a combination of being willing to explore, and try different things, and also meeting people who were vulnerable and in their own truth enough that they could show themselves to you that you could then start to identify and see difference,

Alexis

right? Well, the people that, you know, were willing to be vulnerable with me, it's almost like that gave me permission to explore, because I was like, wow, here's this person, like being vulnerable with me, you know, like they're giving me they're all so why am I not giving myself my all? And, you know, I just went from there. And, you know, there were a lot of a lot of struggles, but with all of those struggles, every single one of them had a triumph.

Jacqueline Misla

Yeah. That's one of the things I think that's been interesting. Also, in doing this work is realizing it sucks to be vulnerable. It's really hard. And when you actually see somebody else instead of their representative, you then can feel seen, and the power of that. Because if not, we're just like representatives, meeting representatives, and this idea that like to your point of everyone looked like they were great. I I'm sure that they were not actually, I'm sure they were not. But we all show our great side of it. We all show the Instagram face. And so then how then do we dig deeper? And do we create those moments?

Alexis

Or saying something along the lines of like, stop comparing your B roll to everybody's highlight reel? I'm like, This is my my B roll is my highlighter.

Effy

I actually see that a lot in my practice. And that first, so the most of the people I work with, we start with a two hour session where we sort of dig into everything and the around like, hour, 10 minutes, there's a moment where there's like, everyone's very feeling very vulnerable, because we've just covered some heavy stuff like around then we've dug into some background like what was it like at home question, right. And at that point, you've become, you've talked about things that sometimes things come up in that session that people haven't told each other yet, you know, and then there's, like, tangible vulnerability, a palpable vulnerability in the in the, in the offense, and it's, it's uncomfortable, and there's like, it's, it just had to lean into it. You know, it's only once you lean into it, and then you get to sort of see the other person and then you use the discomfort of being seen, right? You kind of have to now you can start building tolerance for it. It's just that we don't do it very often so we don't have a tolerance for it. And only when you get to those places, this is why any kind of work that you can do that sort of puts you in those situations in a safe way. It's good because it's a muscle right you just building a tolerance to the discomfort of being seen And, and that's, you know, and only through that, then you're like, able to live that out live out loud and the, you know, in the sort of real world.

Jacqueline Misla

One of the things that I that I want to know from you guys, and you guys shared a little bit about it, so I'm going to pick away at it some more as How did you go about finding yourself? Right? So when people talk about it, like I need to find myself, I need to take time off and look what actually did that mean? For me, it meant like crying in my pajamas, and Netflix thing and what and like eating Chinese food, right? Like it meant just like, part of it was like mourning the life. Even though it wasn't the life that I wanted, it was mourning the life that I had built, it was morning, the idea that my path forward though truer would be harder, because I couldn't just like, put myself on the assembly line track and just be like, I'm gonna do it, like everybody else does it and they all seem happy. I was like, oh, like, that's not going to work for me. So that means now I need to figure stuff out, which takes a lot of thinking, which takes a lot of effort. And that feels sad to me that I need to now be having so much ever. So it was that it was like sitting in the morning of it. And then it was a lot of writing. And like drawing and thinking and talking like there was a lot of processing that needs to happen and distilling down of like, what actually was my story, there was a story that I told myself, that was my story. Right? Whereas like I told myself forever, I hate fish. Like I don't eat fish. I don't like fish. I'm sure at some point, there was a moment where I had some fish and was like, and now I love right. But I told myself this story. I don't like this thing. I am not this thing. And it wasn't until I gave myself permission to try new things. Or to sit in it and explore did I realize, Oh, fish is actually kind of good. Okay, I'm kind of like fish. So I heard that a little bit in your stories. Alexis, you talked about giving yourself permission to explore an Effie, you talked about kind of go in the nerdy route, which I think I was a combination of both of exploration and like read every book as their portrayal of a road, but like read everything, right? Like read all the things, any other tips around what you did to acknowledge and explore that voice?

Effy

Write writing as well. But I know you and your writing is way needed to mine. Mine was a little drawing, I kind of think in like arrows and sort of graphs. And then for me have a lot of analysis of like, you know, I did spend the day looking at my phone. Like, I remember spending a day looking at my phone because your phone actually has a lot of information in it. Right? Like I was looking at who do I call? Who do I text? What are those conversations are like, who are my emergency contacts, right? My emergency contacts was my office. And, you know, it's funny, I tell the story, the on my speed dial was was a personal shopper at Saks and not because it's not it's not a representation of how much money I was making. It was more like, like, I didn't have friends, you know, like, I needed things that I did, you know, and the other person was like, my, my assistant, it was essentially people that I worked with, or like enabled things for me. Um, and then like, you know, obviously, mom, dad, you know, sex, and, you know, you know, the office, and there wasn't any, like friendships, and I would you know, who would I call? If I was distressed? Like, really, I didn't have anybody. And that was that was, that was probably one of the darkest days actually, when I was like working through that stuff. I was like, Oh, this is telling. And. And then from that, therapy, I checked into therapy, I think almost I want to say if I remember this, right, maybe two days after that date, in bed, just looking through my phone, I checked into therapy, I was very fortunate that I got a recommendation. And I found like a good therapist first go, which is a rare, which is where you kind of have to shop around for a therapist. I just lucked out and she was awesome. She really got it and helped me through the process of just like that she was she like most therapists didn't understand the relationship non monogamy part of part of it actually, that I had to work out for myself. But just this crisis that I was having, she was very good at figuring out helping me and helping me listen to the voices and the different parts of me needing different needs and different parts of me become activated, activated for different reasons and really kind of helped me read myself right gave me in my practice, I talk about, you know, I use the analogy of the brain as a computer. It's not, but it's just easy to simplify it to talk about it. And that that our operating system is essentially the the operating system that we write in the first four years of our life. That's why we call it the developmental years, right? So in those years, we write some really important serious code of our operating system. The core operating is Wisdom, which we then use for the rest of our lives, one of the first The important part is our code around attachment. And within that attachment is our code around love, right? The feeling of love and what love looks like in the world, right. And that's the piece of code that you write. And if we don't do the work, whatever that looks like, if we don't get to know, if we don't get to learn, to read and write that code later in our lives, we can't get, we can't really understand what's going on with us. And it's with her I really, like she taught me to, to read and write human code. And, and my work was adjacent to that was the work that I was doing around relationships and reading and that kind of stuff. And that's kind of how I think about it, like those voices, those instincts, those drives, that this feeling of wanting to turn inside out, that's all code. And you can just get to know that and get to know what you are trying to, you know, what's the message, right. And that's, that was kind of what I learned. And that's what helped me understand that voice.

Jacqueline Misla

Anything else?

Alexis

And how to how to go through it and manage it.

Jacqueline Misla

Anything else that you did to besides kind of exploring different people in different scenarios and different outfits?

Alexis

Yeah, took a shit ton of Xanax. No, it just basically what I did is I just threw myself out there. And I, I read a bunch of stuff. You know, because I was, you know, really considering, like transitioning. So, you know, like, I joined a bunch of transforms, talk to some trans guys even talk to some trans women. And, you know, just like, I spoke about it in therapy. And it was interesting, like, I may be jumping the gun a little bit here, but this is like, my favorite part. So one of my, like, my therapist at the time, she was like, you know, you'll be deemed a straight male, right? If you transition, I was like, I was like, that's boring as fuck, I was like, I don't want to be some straight, no offense to any straight man. But it's just, it's just not for me, you know, and I was like, I feel like, I'm gonna lose like my lesbian like, badge of honor that I wear with pride. Like, every single day, you know, and it's funny, because like, I think maybe like, a few weeks ago was like, lesbian visibility day. I'm, like, now fucking me that I'm like, I'm here all the time. Like, you know, like, it's so obvious, you know? But yeah, like, I just put myself out there as much as I possibly could. And I used every single resource possible. Whether it be like books, again, talking to people therapy. Meditating helped a lot. Meditating is really difficult to do, especially when you have like, so much like going on. Yeah, so when that didn't work, then, you know, the Xanax help. So yeah...

Jacqueline Misla

So what's interesting, so the thread that I'm hearing is both being a little nerdy about it. So like reading all the things, watching all the things, exploring all the things I hear, being open to the adventure, being curious, and trying different things. And I also here, finding someone that you can talk to and explore with.

Effy

I do want to add actually, is also the reason why this exists today is community as also absolutely vital. Finding community that is going through the process with you, is absolutely vital. With non monogamy. You know, I actually spoke to a couple of people about this, the path sometimes if you do it really well, the path is like you do your research, you have these conversations, you design your relationship, you set your boundaries. And then the next step people go to is like now they go and date, right. And the step they miss that I am I am so adamant about is community, make friends, find community, build a support network with the people who are going through it with you. Um, and then you'll be surprised how dating suddenly becomes so much easier. And you don't feel so isolated and you don't feel so alone and you don't feel so what are we doing? So I think in my case, I mean that for me, the thread that I pulled was finding community, like I met a bunch of people who are being non monogamous and thriving, and I was like, I want to be there. Um, so that was that's also huge.

Jacqueline Misla

I think one of the things that was helpful for me was around that was consistency. So as someone who is a type a control freak, very impatient, right? So I'm the type of person where I'm having a conflict with a partner. And I'm like, Oh, we're, I want to talk about this now. No, like, you know, it's Sunday night like, this is probably not the best time and like, we're gonna schedule this conversation because I can my brain cannot rest until I know when it is. But there is power. I mean, if he and I are both coaches, so we certainly the power and having one on ones, but there's power in having a therapist or a coach or community where you know, on Thursdays is when I get to have this conversation. And so when again or community or person that you relate to I, when I was going to see Effie, I remember one time, I was sharing with her a conflict that I was having. And she's like, Alright, so tell me about the conversation. I'm like, well, it's on flip chart paper, let me take that out for you. And I have a flip chart paper down and pulled out that you know, but finding a, you know, a nerdy soulmate, who would go down the flip chart paper, you know, rabbit hole with me was fantastic. So I'm gonna ask two more questions, and then I'm gonna open up to the group for questions.

Alexis

Sure, um, when you know, any, whether it's a, like a life thing, you know, we're talking about self discovery, people are the most important thing. You can't get life experience out of a book, like somebody could write their life experience in the book. But guess what, they have a fucking editor. So you're not getting the full life experience. So yes, like to have a coach to have a therapist, even just like somebody like solid to talk to even like a support group support groups are, I highly recommend them home. Because there's nothing more refreshing than sitting in a room with a bunch of people that fucking get it. So regardless of any of you are going through whatever, talk to somebody about it.

Effy

And we're lucky in New York, there will be other people, I promise you.

Jacqueline Misla

They will be pointed some people. Alright, so my last two questions are, how did you go about coming out? Or sharing your new authentic version of yourself with the people around you? So I'll start here.

Effy

I started a new career and start talking about it out loud. Yeah, I mean, it's funny, I make a joke. I'm very obviously out loud about what I do. When I build a career, and I come out, in the world out, you know, in the big wide world, the first three questions is, you know, who are you? What do you do? Where are you from? And what do you do? So, people ask me where I'm from because of my accent. So that's like, that kind of gives me one more question. And then like, third question is, what do you do? And I'm like, okay, so I'll tell you. So, um, I come out quite quickly. And then I, and then it's, I've now I know, it especially now that it's kind of out there and been written about, people become intrigued, and I like to sort of, I have now got good at bringing curiosity out. So ends up becoming like a sort of push people into being curious about what I do in this world. So it doesn't feel like about me personally.

Jacqueline Misla

Repeat the question. So how did you go about coming out, or at least explaining to the people around you, this is now who I am, I am gender fluid. i This how I'm a lesbian. This is how I identify.

Alexis

I didn't. I mean, I did come out, you know, as a lesbian. I remember when I was 16, I came out to my mom, and I'm pretty sure everybody here knows the, the reaction. What's the reaction? It's just a phase. Like, okay, and you know, it's funny, because like, even though, you know, my sexuality wasn't validated, like, it was still at weight off my shoulders, you know, coming out as a lesbian was easy, because I think it was easy, because, like, you know, it was kind of obvious, I guess, maybe it was obvious to me. And I feel like my immediate circle might not have been obvious to others, but that was only the the real coming out, you know, as far as like my like, gender fluidity, gender bending, whatever you want to call it. It's something that happened gradually, you know, I just didn't I mean, yeah, I kind of did chop my hair off overnight. So, you know, but it's like it, like people just started realizing it. You know, I didn't have to make this big announcement, because there wasn't, to me, there wasn't an announcement to make, because I was just living my life as who I am. So it wasn't like, there wasn't anything extra to it.

Jacqueline Misla

I think for me, it was, uh, have you ever had the experience, so I exercise and when I do, I'm constantly have to remember to breathe. So I don't know if that happens for you, where you're holding something doing something. And like, I realized all that time I was holding my breath. That is how all of my coming outs have been is that like, I'm like, like, holding it in representative representative representative. And then it's like, again, and it like, just like bursts out of me. And so that happened with with my ex husband, like one night, you know, after like trying to suddenly be like, but what if we like, you know, what if then you dated and then came back and like told me about it? Like that would be right? Or like whatever, you know, like, and it was like little things and he's like, no, no, and I'm like no, but really though, like, let's just think about like just, you know, just just pretend like trying to subtly subtly and then at some point just being like I can't like I'm suffocating. Literally feeling like I cannot breathe another day. And it wasn't an ideal moment. And it wasn't that but it like burst out. And the same thing happened when having a conversation with my parents several years into being in a relationship with a woman and being like an older woman. It's been like five years right? We live together and she's like, around the corner waiting for you to leave. Like, there was like all these like things of just like and, and then, and I'm trying personally trying to get a lot better at releasing the valve more often. So the pressure doesn't build to the point of explosion. I think that's the work that I'm constantly doing is being in touch enough with myself, and then realizing the pattern of okay, you know how this goes, Jackie, we've done this enough times that we know what's gonna happen. Let's do it differently. Let's try something different. So that's going to lead to my last question, then I'm gonna open it up, which is, if you could go back and give advice to pre transitioned you to former you who was conforming? And was living this dual life? If you could go back and give them some advice? Alexis, I'll start with you. And then I'll go to Fe what would you tell them?

Alexis

Stop wasting your fucking time. For real, like I was telling Jeff and Jackie like earlier if I could, like grab my old self by the back of the neck and be like, stop it right now. Like you're missing out on so much. Stop worrying about what people say about you what people think about you, you know, all those people in high school? Guess what, after you graduate, you're never going to talk to any of them ever again. And that was the truth. And I don't, you know. So yeah, like, just stop. Just be yourself. As cliche as it sounds. It's like the most simple advice that I could ever give to myself or anyone for that matter.

Effy

So similar, I think I would whisper speak your truth. I think that's what I would like if I was if I had that like time travel phone line. I would say speak your truth. Find your truth speak your truth.

Jacqueline Misla

My advice to myself would be it is not going to be your way. And it is going to be okay. Yeah. Okay, so that being said, I'm gonna open up to the group. So we have a mic in the back. So we'll hand it to you just for the podcast, if you are comfortable sharing your question with the world. So raise your hands like this, if you have a question, and you're interested in seeing it into the mic, if you have a question, but want to write it down and don't then do this, I'm gonna hand you an index card.

Unknown Speaker

This is really just gonna be like a softball question for you guys. So you can hit it out of the park. Like personally, like, I kind of don't like non monogamy as a way of describing what really either I'm looking for, or, you know, I think there's another way of describing like, like, not in the negative? So the softball question I would throw to you is, if you don't describe it in the negative, how do you what is your definition of it in the positive?

Jacqueline Misla

So I'll answer that first and then you're literally the expert on it. So I'm going to have a pass it to you. But for me actually, I identify as open so my language to myself is I am open I'm in an open relationship I live in an open life and open to me means open to possibility open to exploration open to not defining myself. So that is I agree with you, I use the non monogamous term because it is the term that is more favored in the community in terms of hormone known, I should say, but I define myself as open.

Effy

Relationship by design, right? That's, that's kind of where I live and breathe and do the work. So my relationship by design is, and then I just, I will describe to people what it looks like, you know, I partners live together. You know, my partner and I live in one apartment and my other partner, his wife lived downstairs we live in, you know, like, I'll just explain what it is. But I think that, you know, for me, it's because it's my work. I collab relationship by design. Yeah.

Alexis

Yeah, for me, um, you know, I'm in a relationship right now. I'm an open relationship. Okay. The amazing person that Jackie was talking about before is me. But it's funny, you know, like, so I was introduced to like, curious Fox, I was introduced to Fe but like, I, I feel I don't and I feel like I will never describe myself as polyamorous. But I what I do say is that I'm in an open relationship. Because once like, in my experience, you know, like, I know a lot of like, people that just are ignorant, not necessarily in a bad sense, but they hear polyamory they're like, Was that me? I'm like, well, Polly Emery, like break it down from you know what it's like. And they're like, Oh, how can you do that? Don't get jealous. And it's like, Yes, I do get jealous. Oh, I could never do that. It's like, well, first of all, like, I didn't think I could ever do it either, you know. But yeah, like, I hate that. It has like such a negative connotation. So yeah, I like the term open relationship. Yeah.

Effy

I would actually just a sort of desert terminology. I'm glossary for everyone who sort of knew and figuring it out. The way I said monogamy and non monogamy or like imagine them as like umbrella terms and under non monogamy, you have open relationships and polyamory actually is kind of even though that's my relationship design is polyamory it's kind of on the fringes like people who are doing fully like full on polyamorous relationships with multiple people committed long term. That's actually a friend, it's actually a rare group of people. More like the open relationship where people are mostly in sort of a couple that also dating other people is the more common version of that. Without getting into these like entwined long term lifelong, you know, fully committed relationships. That's kind of actually rare. Men and like open relationship tend to be like the

Alexis

Yeah, and you know, what's crazy, like, so this is my first open relationship, right? I have never been in such a healthy relationship before. Like, are you serious? Like, you know, Jackie and I, we've been together about six months, we've had like, what three arguments? And there are arguments, we have like debates, like we whiteboard and

Jacqueline Misla

Picture paper.

Alexis

Yeah. And we do flip chart, but we work our stuff out. Because it's like, I feel like the beautiful thing about open is that like, everything's on the line, there's no holding back, you know, and like before, and every relationship I was in before I was holding something back for fear of like, Oh, like this is going to trigger something bad or this person is going to get mad at me. So let me just keep quiet. Now if I have a problem like Jack, we need to we need to talk on Sunday night.

Jacqueline Misla

Questions? Alright, yeah. You're gonna go on this side first, and then we'll we'll head over here. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker

Hi, guys. Thank you so much for that wonderful conversation. I'm still like taking all of it in right now. Could you speak more about the vulnerability part of like opening up and like speaking your truth and living your life? Because I feel like that's kind of what I'm struggling with right now, personally, so I'd love to hear more thoughts about that.

Jacqueline Misla

Want to take it? I'm happy to.

Alexis

So it's funny. It's something I've struggled with for a long time. There's actually a TED talk on vulnerability. Brene Brown, is it? Yeah.

Effy

Stability, listen and read Brene Brown?

Alexis

Yeah, one of my therapist, she's like, uh, you know, I had a trouble being vulnerable. And she's like, oh, you should watch this TED talk. And I was like, Yeah, okay. I watched that TED talk. I was like, I went to her office next week, I was like, did you know that their strength and vulnerability, I was like, let me tell you. And I'm telling her stuff that like, she already knows. But you know, like, my, my suggestion is, find that one person, find the one find your person, whether it doesn't have to be a romantic sense. It could be your best friend, it could be a family member, like, and just pour everything out. And if you don't feel comfortable with that, write a letter to yourself. And like, just put everything out there and find comfort in that because, like, no one's gonna read it. You know, but it gives you a chance to, like, get all that out, you know?

Effy

Like I said, it's a it's a muscle, right? It's a tolerance, you know? So the more you do it, the easier it feels. And I think, again, I completely Brene Brown is the expert on vulnerability. She's done all the research, I think, for books now. And she's doing academic research on this stuff. And the thing that, that I would like to echo that she says is, vulnerability takes absolute courage. Like, it's not supposed to be easy. It takes courage, like guts from the deepest places. And it takes practice, and then building that tolerance and just sort of sitting in the discomfort of vulnerability. And I think starting with people that you trust is a good place for sure. And at some point, you kind of need to step outside and sit with the discomfort. There's no like, a magic formula. You know, it's about building tolerance.

Jacqueline Misla

So I so in addition to the work that I do with curious Fox, I founded an organization called crafting your path, which focuses on how do you get from point A to point B in your journey, and I wrote to this month, our focus is on feeling seen. And I just posted a blog post quotes that's called, I fell off the vulnerability wagon. And it really talks about how my drug of choice was perfectionism, and control. And it is very hard to be vulnerable when you are so conscious about how you're being perceived and ensuring that you are being perceived exactly the way that you are intended to be perceived. And so for me that that takes a lot of work. So it takes a lot of work to be vulnerable, but it also takes a lot of work to show up as perfect. It is exhausting work. It takes a lot of paying attention and adjusting and chameleon yourself to fit whatever that thing is, and there's manipulation involved. There's a lot of stuff that's going on to show up as like, you know, for me, the Rockstar parent and the amazing partner and the like, you know, successful entrepreneur and all those things. And what happens is, when I first got into the vulnerability stuff, I was like, This is amazing. And I was like, the evangelists like passing out stuff on the train, like motor abilities the way and was like, right, I was really, yeah, I was into it. And I was like, everyone needs to do this. And why aren't we doing this all the time. And like, I'm gonna tell you about myself that I want to hear about you. Let's do the right screw the weather and the light lead, what's your deepest secret go like I was like, right? Like, I wanted to be in it. And then slowly after time, what I realized was, when I when I felt like I was good and comfortable, like, Oh, I'm so vulnerable, I started to fall off the wagon and get back into manipulation and control and perception, and would find myself like, then to your point, like physically feeling like, I want to say this thing, but I'm not now because then they'll think this thing. And then like, I'm playing it out 12 steps ahead of like, what's going to happen, and, and then because of my holding it in, and then bursting out, it then would burst out and I would get emotional. And then I would be furious about being emotional, right. And then I'm like crying, and I'm mad that I'm crying. And I'm telling you things, and I don't know how to control it. And so what I'm realizing and my continued everyday work is about first, knowing who I am, so that I know how I can show up as being really seen, because you can't actually see me if I don't know who he is. And so it's continuing to connect with myself, finding the people who can bear the weight of my story. Because not everyone has earned the right to have all of me, and trusting that that thing is going to happen. The other thing is, I think I've realized, and we have done this work via nonviolent communication, understanding the difference between needs and strategies. So I may need something and I have a specific way that I want that needs to be met. And when I put that out there, and I'm vulnerable, and I'm like, I want to connect with you tonight, which means I want to lay in bed and like stare at each other and read poetry and like and when you're like, I'm a little bit tired, maybe you just sit on the couch, but like next to each other and hold hands. Like clearly you don't love me, then that must be what that means and realizing the distinction between the need for connection and my strategy for how I was going to do it. And in being vulnerable and sharing my strategy, I was setting myself up to fail, as opposed to being vulnerable, sharing my need to connect and being open to discussing the strategy for meeting that need. I don't know if that's helpful at

Effy

all. I want to add one last thing for anyone to this because I think it's important. We talk a lot about like Know thyself, and there's a lot of work out there about love yourself, right? Love yourself, know yourself. Know thyself, love thyself. I want to lower the bar a little bit, because it's not so easy to love yourself. I think it's a really high bar is that people like, know yourself and love yourself. It's actually hard. My middle step that I give people is to how about we start with tolerating ourselves? How about we are actually okay sitting with ourselves, maybe even bored. Right? And then they learn to tolerate ourselves first. And then from there work to ourselves, I think there's a lot of pressure out there about Know Yourself self care, love yourself, like, you know, right on your mirror that you see every morning, like I love myself, like, sure, but that's a high bar that like to set people up. So I think a part of vulnerability is also just like, you know, I'm gonna just sit here and tolerate myself. And then from there, I'll build on it.

Jacqueline Misla

We have a question over here. Yeah.

Nadia

Hi, I'm Nadia. Alexis, you mentioned an instance where you know, you were feeling maybe jealousy in your relationship, and the difficulties that you encountered, entering an open your first open relationship. I would like for hopefully, each of you to share an instance where you dealt with feelings that were projected onto your partner or your partner is based on the, you know, perception that you have of a relationship because I think of my relationship. And I think about the security that my partner is able to give me and I'm able to give them and I think one of those things is like fidelity. And oftentimes, an open relationship can then be interpreted as like, you're not giving each other that security. You don't need that security, you're looking for it, you're looking for it somewhere else, or your partner isn't giving you enough, and I'm very new to this concept. And I don't even have the language to broach the subject with my partner, even if it were something that we would explore. So I'm wondering like how you guys came To that, and how you also deal with like, your very human feelings, because when you talked about attachment being something that you form in the first four years of your life, your mom's your mom, your dad, your dad. Or if you did have just a parent or a guardian, that was just the person and you know how it is, even when you have a pet, like they just are so very attached to their guardian. So I'm wondering about how you guys dealt with that attachment and the feelings that went along with it.

Alexis

It's great. I just think it's important to have an open line of communication. You know, and I struggled with that, like with the jealousy, I'm like, Well, I'm in I'm in an open relationship. I'm not supposed to be jealous, wrong, like, and you know, and I expressed it to Jackie, and she goes, What's wrong, and I was like, to talk about it. She's like, we're gonna talk about it. And I told her, and I felt like this sense of shame. I was like, and I like my tail was like, in between my legs. I was like, I'm jealous, and I hate it. And you know, her reaction was, that's okay. And I was like, Oh, really, like, it's fine. You know, so, and it's just a matter of like, just being open about it. And like, recognizing and not just recognize that feeling, but owning that feeling. And just, and you know, because when I was going against it when I like didn't feel jealous, I hated it. I was like, Oh, my God, like, I hate being jealous i. And I remember like saying to you, I was like, this is such a toxic feeling. I hate this feeling. What who's making it toxic? I was making it toxic. But once I let it out, and once I started expressing it, the jealousy was still there. But it didn't have like that such like that heavy, nasty undertone. Yeah.

Jacqueline Misla

Yeah. So a few different answers to that. One is, the short answer for me is be curious about it. So get nerdy about the jealousy. So jealousy, there's different language, jealousy. Sometimes it's an umbrella term that we use for a lot of different things. So jealous really means I want what you have, like you can't have it, I want it envious is you can have it but I want that too. Then there's territorial, which is like, you can play with it. But know that that's my right. Like, there's that feeling of it. There's the expression of there, there's the feeling of so I'll give you an example. When I was in a relationship with with my wife for four years, even though we were open the whole time before we actually started practicing it. And I introduced it to the relationship. I was like, Hey, I've been doing mom and monogamy this whole time forever. I can't do that anymore. You want to be with me? It's gonna look like this. She was like, that's a thing. And I was like, yes. And she's like, Great, let's do that thing. And she started something first. And because of her patterns, of, not of similar to what she described, and what kind of some of us have experienced, not feeling like it was okay to be in other things. She had a pattern of infidelity. And so that pattern just happened again. And it wasn't about me, it wasn't about the relationship, even though we were open, it was still this is the thing that I do, I start to like somebody, and then they think that it's nothing. But then we start to flirt, and then it becomes something but now it's something that can't tell them that it's something and like that, and you've dug yourself into this hole. And so they were in a relationship for a little while before I found out and we had to unpack that. But what was happening for me was they were going to Central Park, and they want to rooftop dinners. And they were having picnics because it's the beginning. And we're sitting on the couch and pajamas and watching CNN. And I want rooftops in Central Park. So it wasn't even the jealousy around you can't be with that person. But like, Hey, you got the energy now to go to Central Park. And where was that energy? Like I want some of that. And so we've some some of it was realizing that there were gaps in the relationship around passion, or lust or joy that I wanted to include in our relationship and didn't think that was possible anymore because of the longevity. But once I saw it was possible, just not with me. Then we had to have a conversation the flip chart paper came out and we're talking about it. And she goes Yes, I did. They canceled Christmas. So that so the story behind that is last Christmas. We were planning for the holiday and we have the whole family come over and everything and and of course that's a great time right before everyone comes over to some really serious relationship conversation that was like ideal. And somehow in the midst of that my wife at the time revealed she wanted to have a non hierarchical relationship. So what that means is this I went into open relationships thinking there's me and my person and then we explore the world and like we explore the people and we explore things and we're open but like that's my person and like everyone needs to know that's my person. She came from and for me there wasn't love involved it was about experience with it me and my person we're gonna have she came to a differently when we talked to about being open and non monogamous. We did not define what that actually meant for each of us. Oh, when you say you mean that, oh, that's not what I meant, like we were married at that point, when we had that conversation like we had gone, we and so that was startling where I was like, Oh, you want to fall in love and like live with somebody else. I just want to go like to a play party, like I didn't realize, Oh, those are different things. And so we had during during Christmas, you just described that she was in love with her partner, and wanted to have a non hierarchical relationship, meaning neither person is the person, neither person is primary, they both are important, they both get time and attention. And I was like, Christmas is canceled. We cannot both have non hierarchy and presence, like we're gonna have to choose between them. It's over. And we did literally had an emergency FaceTime call with Effie. Because I and it was it was Loretta Cole. And while I'm in the back, like pacing and ranting, and then she and now the irony, of course is we are in a non toxic relationship. And I split my time between living with Alexis and living with my wife. So it what it was about what happened for me in that moment, honestly, was I felt like I was dumped into the middle of the ocean, I did not have the opportunity yet to dip my toe in the water to get used to the temperature to swim in together. It was like this is what I want. And I felt because I'd always been the role model everything that I had to adjust very quickly to meet that person where they were at. And I would go through like, that sounds great. That sounds I would help you decorate.

And then being like, this is terrible, you're clearly evil and sent to test me. And so I would like navigate between those things, because I wasn't yet there. And I and so it took a long time they they pause the relationship for a little while gave us opportunity to heal, we went slowly into it and have now emerged in this place. That that is really great and comfortable for both of us. But part of the tip of that was naming like, oh, that's what you mean and what you want, and knowing that that's going to change. So the partner thing that like you're my person came from me, I realized because of control. I wanted like a safety net, you're going to be my person. And like that's it. And I made that commitment. Once I was married, I was within a relationship for 11 years. And if I was still if I still held true to that I would not be happy right now. He's lovely. We co parent with friends he spent he shouldn't be my husband, though. And so right now we have the ability to grow with each other. That's where my safety is my safety. And we call each other copilot that no matter what the terrain is, we're gonna be flying next to each other. And it may look different. We may not live together anymore. We may. And that may be scary. But one of the things I realized is I sometimes plan for future me, does that make sense? Future Me is going to definitely want that. So I'm going to control for that, as opposed to being present to currently and knowing that future me is going to figure out future me. And future me a year ago didn't realize that I would want to live with somebody else. When I was canceling Christmas because I was horrified at the idea of living in two different places. Future Me couldn't realize that I would fall in love. And I would then want to have that kind of experience. And so instead of trying to control to that same thing, again with jealousy is is trying to control who I show up as and some and we just name huh, that feels really yucky. Sometimes it's creating better language, so it doesn't feel so charged up. I'm like, Oh, that felt yucky. And they're like, alright, well talk to me about the yucky. Like, ah, it feels like right now I just need you to like sit next to me and hold me. And then we can talk about like what's going on? Like just naming this doesn't feel good. I want to process it. And let's do that together. I don't know if that again, if that's helpful.

Effy

I want to add to that a little bit about because you said fidelity I actually have a whole talk about if not fidelity then watch right? Because that is the glue that defines the monogamous relationship. That is what defines it. I think a really good substitute for fidelity is integrity and integrity, integrity to the design that you've agreed to. So whether that's what did that design is now non monogamous, right. What went wrong with Jackie's relationship is that even though they agreed there was no integrity, because because her wife went and had an affair, which you can do, you can if you can, can beat an open relationship and have an affair because you're essentially out of integrity of the design of your relationship. Right? So um, if you don't want to have fidelity as a part of your design, then what's right, it's a good question. My suggestion is integrity. And what that looks like is now we design this relationship, we have agreements, we have boundaries, we have good communication, and we have integrity that we're going to stick to that. And we will redesign and refine and and move and be fluid. The thing that's going to hold it all together is the integrity that we have to keeping it as we've agreed to it.

Jacqueline Misla

And at that point of doing the check ins is something that's very important, because again, if you get married if you're in a relationship For 1015 20 years, and you committed to something when you were 20, something that assumes that 40, something you want to 20, something you wanted with the knowledge that you had. And that's just not reasonable to expect of yourselves. So having an opportunity that so every year now, based on these advice, we actually do a quarterly so our birthdays are in the summer, and then around the holidays. And then I were very structured and say, Okay, how are things going? Let's do a relationship check in, like, how are you feeling? What's going on? What do we need to adjust? How am I doing? How are you doing? But that continues to keep us that, to me, creates a sense of loyalty that like, Oh, I'm not doing that with lots of other people. Like, I continue to know you as you grow. Like it all. I've said to her many times, and I share the same with Alexis, I'm so excited to meet future you. Like I am so excited to know who future you is gonna be and like, support future you. And so giving space for that actually connect creates much more connection than putting the relationship in a boxton.

Unknown Speaker

Hi, I feel like you guys are this is specifically for you, Jackie, because a lot of what you said I relate to, but I just don't know how the hell you did it. This letting go like a lot of what you have done, I feel like what I'm what I'm getting is you letting go of a lot of the control? How the fuck did you do this?

Jacqueline Misla

Question? Yes, I asked myself that every day. How do I let go? It doesn't happen at first, it transparently, it starts with me going into bad old habits and like starting to control and then realizing, okay, I'm doing the thing. And realizing that if I had, I keep telling myself, if I had controlled my life, the way that I wanted it to, it would not look anything like this. And I really do feel, again, so much more in touch with who I am and so much more joyful. But that this was not what I was pointing towards. And so I have to remind myself in the moment that whatever is going to happen, a I can survive it because I have in the past and be it will likely navigate to better or more what it's supposed to be than if I controlled it. So that's the first. The second is when I fall back on old times, and I start to control the people around me can tell. So my birthday is coming up, it's on Monday in case anyone wants to know. And I started and because of the dynamic because we still play with this dynamic my wife and I between the relationship that she has, where there's a lot still of the new relationship energy in the play, when my eyes still struggle with naming what I want and saying I want more of that to say around like anniversaries and birthdays. I give myself permission. And I'm like, I want the parade to come out. Right. So I like start dropping into like, oh, wait, I think I think my birthday is coming. That's so that's so I wonder. I mean, if you want to spoil me, that's fine. You don't have to. But what that is what feels subtle to me is very not subtle. But it's me trying to control for particular Situ is trying to say, If you love me, it will look like this. And the truth is, there's such generosity in the way that she shows up every day, that actually me doing that and controlling creates like well now I don't want to do that thing. Right. So So I think it's those two things for me, it is hard and I have to practice it daily because my instinct is to control very early on, I realized that my my parents were in the struggle and I had to be I had to fend for myself in many ways they were loving and wonderful and fantastic. And I realized that they didn't know what they were doing. And so very early on I realized oh I'm gonna I gotta control everybody that's the way to succeed is I control everybody got it. And I went through my whole life trying to control everybody and so that's a habit that like is built into my code that I'm constantly trying to override and the two ways that I do that is that is I think to myself Jackie if you would have controlled you would not be this happy and then when I do it the people around me call on call me on and be like it feels like you're trying to control for something and I'm like oh yeah I am and then I feel terrible about it and

Effy

just like the technical stuff on control there's a reason why people are controlling and Jackie kind of tapped into it a little bit based on her background why control is a reaction to a feeling of unsafe and safety like you we are activated to become controlling because we feel unsafe. And and sometimes it's obvious to why we feel unsafe and sometimes it isn't it can it can be like in Jackie because if you don't mind if I just do this out loud, analyze yella and in Jackie's case in Jackie's case earlier on, she decided her younger Jackie like the young gal Jackie decided that there was no there's people around him who were supposed to give her safety when available to Who to keep her safe. So she decided that in order to feel safe and to be safe as a part of like survival system hard coded into her to make the survival like this is essentially how they operate in the world that she had to be controlling. And that then it becomes kind of habit, like a mental habit. So if you find yourself to be a controlling person, there'll be a reason for that. And trying to just stop outright, is not going to be as effective because it's a very old, it's coming from an old and hardwired place like survival place. So the unpacking of what happened along the lines that made you feel unsafe, either back then or today. And to deal with that will give you the will give you like, help you like go a little bit, and then you have to do like behavioral stuff. But if you don't get to get to the root cause of why you are controlling, and whether you unfeeling feel unsafe today, or in the past, you're just saying I'm going to stop being controlling is not going to, it's not going to be helpful. So some of the work that we did and Jackie do on her own is to like come to terms with the fact why she's controlling in the first place. So that's just a worth thinking about. And you can do that. I mean, that's what therapy is for. Yeah, but just like dig in, if you if you already have a therapist to dig in, particularly into like, what made you what makes you or made you feel unsafe to then makes you feel you need to be in charge, right? We call it I call it like the only adult in the room. At some point you decided you're the only adult in the room. Right? And that decision, you wrote that piece of code, and you're operating from that piece of code, and that code may or may not serve today.

Jacqueline Misla

So you said recommenders also accountability, they were able to hold me to say you're doing it again, because I've named this is something that I struggle with. I think being a coach in this work holds me accountable too. Because I'm like, Alright, I gotta you know, doctor, heal thyself. But being but sharing, this is what my struggle is in the space of and so I need you to, I'm going to slip back into it, so call me on it so I can fix it at home. Any last one last question maybe? Okay. All right. Well, thank you guys for coming out.

Effy

This episode was produced and edited by Ben Green. Thanks to Dave Zaha who composed our intro music. Special thanks to the new woman space in Brooklyn, New York. To join the conversation. Find us on social media at we are Curious Foxes. Until next time, stay curious friends.

Stay curious, curious, curious, curious. Stay curious.

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Love, IdentityCurious FoxJune 6, 2020identity, nonmonogamy, gender-identity, live, know thyself, non-monogamy