Ep 7: Poly and Open Dating
Art by @newpolyanna
From budding romantic relationships, to long term partnerships, to connections with metamours and friends; we are interested in how to build and maintain connections that meet our needs, bring us joy, and help us feel seen.
Effy and Jacqueline discuss making new connections in the world of polyamory and open relationships when it comes to dating with a brave Fox, Ben, who had a very interesting story to tell.
To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla on Instagram.
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TRANSCRIPT:
Effy
This is the Curious Fox podcast where we challenge the status quo and love, sex and relationships. I'm Effy Blue.
Jacqueline Misla
And I'm Jacqueline Misla.
Effy
Our theme this month is connection hailed as the main source of relief from depression, healing from grief, the foundation for growth and more connection is as important for our species as food and water.
Jacqueline Misla
Human beings are built for connection. And at a time when technology makes connecting both easier and more challenging. Many feel starved for the real, genuine thing,
Effy
from budding romantic relationships to long term partnerships, to connection with metaphors and friends. We're interested in how to build and maintain connections that meet our needs, bring us joy, and help us feel seen.
Jacqueline Misla
Today, as we were discussing how to make new connections in the world of polyamory and open relationships. There's so many ways to discuss this. So today, we're going to start with dating,
Effy
we were scheduled to talk about connection and dating. And our producer Ben came in with a story. And we thought, what a great place to start. Ben, tell us about the Go
Unknown Speaker
Effie. Her name is omitted, because
Effy
we shall call her omitted.
Unknown Speaker
Okay, we'll just give her like a random name, let's call her moelis. Okay, so I met Melissa on hinge, which I think I can already see the look on your face is a bad place to start for this. But I met her on hinge, we hit it off. She's very smart. And we just we have a lot of fun, just have fun playing around. And our conversations were great. We went on a date that started at 8pm. And we ended up saying good night at like three in the morning. We just kept bar hopping all night. We didn't want to say goodbye. Yeah, it was really good. That connection was so good. And we went on another date. And at some point in the night. And this is something that I totally learned from hanging out with curious Fox people at some point. And I was like, I would love to end this night somewhere. Private. Oh, yeah. And she was a little hesitant. She was like, Okay, let's maybe let's go to another bar first and feel it out.
Effy
And I also like your coin is around the subject, somewhat private, yes,
Unknown Speaker
I wasn't gonna say want to take it home, let's go. But that's not my style. So anyway, we go to another bar, and the conversation gets kind of kicking about what we're both looking for. And she talked a bit about some of her past relationships. And she happened to actually mention open relationships and how she has been in a few in the past. And they've made her be a version of herself that she doesn't really like and that she kind of went into them, I guess a little hesitantly in any way, and that they're mostly for the guy. And I had mentioned that I had recently started working with you, and that I have, you know, been to a couple of play parties. And that I was interested in continuing to sort of explore this new sexual territory that I have no previous experience with. And I was looking for someone who, you know, to maybe do that with but also I didn't want to go to these parties and feel like very restricted by monogamy, or anything of that nature. And the first thing that she said was, okay, this sounds like something that maybe I'm not really interested in, but I might be willing to be like, in it for a little while, while I'm still kind of looking for something that meets more of the monogamy that I'm looking for. And we ended up we did end up spending the night together. But then a couple of weeks passed where we're both out of town and I was trying to keep up the contact and she was very reticent to be texting back and forth with me and it came to a head and she was like, no The truth is I did a lot of soul searching and I can't really I can't see myself doing that and and I was like well I'm not sure how honestly committed I am to I'm honestly I feel like I'm more interested in finding myself in a serious connection than I am in you know, doing kinky stuff at a sex party like once every three or four months where it'd be sad to say goodbye to that stuff but it's a lower priority item for me and she's like I don't want to be in a situation where I'm making you compromise or sacrifice something that you want. And for me like a vanilla monogamy relationship is the only thing that I want. So, so it ended and it but it just it felt like it was just it made me feel so sad that this thing had to ends that I was interested in, because I mentioned this thing that I'm not even all that. But also I am still interested in you see, what do you see the problem I'm having? For sure.
Effy
Yeah, absolutely. I have so much to say.
Jacqueline Misla
It sounds like but it also crystallizes the question of what's the difference between open dating and just dating? Because it sounded like you were saying, hey, I want to see you. But I also want to see what else is going on. And she was thinking, I'm looking for long term monogamy. And so you in the short term, exploring other things may make me uncomfortable, because it may mean you want that long term.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I think that I was saying that I was interested in something that's basically a phase for me, but I think that she heard something different. Like, I think that she and I weren't speaking the same language.
Effy
Hmm. Well, I think that's like a great place to start. Right? I mean, they're like, in your little capture story, is a microcosm of all the things that we want to talk about. Right. And I think a good place to start is what Jackie brought up, right? Why are we talking about long term like poly dating opened dating? before you're even dating? Like you skipped the dating part. And you're now talking about like, open dating or poly dating or being polyamorous.
Jacqueline Misla
Alright, so now I have a bunch of questions. For you. Yeah. And we can figure out what the order is. But first I we referenced it, but I want us to explore what's the difference between dating dating around who been dating poly dating, we mentioned all three. So I want to get and then when do you discuss how do you know what you want? And when? When do you discuss it with somebody? Yeah. So let's start from the beginning. Let's start terms. Yeah,
Effy
a great place to start. So okay, here's, here's how I segment them in my world. And the way I think about it, so poly dating is when you're dealing with the intention of having multiple long term relationships, right, with polyamory, poly many Emery love, many loves, right? polyamory and the ideas of a long term interconnected, potentially loving relationships may or may not be sexual. So I think for me part of dating is when either you're in it, and you're dating other people to be a part of it, or you're dating with the intention of this kind of structure,
Jacqueline Misla
having multiple long term or real kind of genuine, intimate connection
Effy
connections, right. So that's like probably dating over and dating, I would say, dating, while, you know, maybe in a while in the relationship with the idea that you're dating, openly dating multiple people at the same time,
Jacqueline Misla
but not necessarily for long term partnership. Right. But for sexual exploration or connection or emotional intimacy.
Effy
Right. Exactly. Exactly. And I think you do that. Well, you can do that while you're in a relationship with somebody. Right? So let's say you are in a committed couple, right? And you're, you know, you're open means that you're dating, like committed to each other, and you're openly dating other people as well. And that could be like short term affairs, or like sexual exploration or, you know, funding short term consensual affairs. consensual affairs. Yes. Yes. Yes. Like affairs in a romantic in a French kind of European affair means something different. Okay, exactly. The French style affair when you're like, kind of lost in a thing for a while. And then dating around is the good old good fashion dating, you know, this is the pre the relationship is free, anything else? It is when you're like dating, around getting to know people getting to know yourself. You're not committing to anything, you're not imagining look of long term intertwined relationships, it's worth having that conversation, because I'm finding more and more people are jumping into this, like, open dating or poly dating. And they're skipping the dating part. Right, which to me is a little strange, because in this country, you do have this idea of exclusive right going exclusive or being exclusive. Right? You like in this country in the dating world and the mainstream, there's this idea of, you know, dating around and then two people have this conversation when they say we're exclusively dating or dating each other. And then from there, they're in a relationship and escalator that are the
Jacqueline Misla
how is that different from your experience when you were dating? Not in the States?
Effy
Not in the US? There? Isn't this there isn't this overt turning point there? Isn't this like, we're now at
Jacqueline Misla
the moment when you get the Letterman's jacket officially been pinned?
Effy
And so it's interesting that that exists here. But, but for some reason, it seems to be eroding. I think as non monogamy becoming like, you know, more and more in the in the zeitgeist. People are kind of clutching on to it from the start. Instead of saying I'm just dating. For now. Like, I'm not I'm ready to talk about relationships of any sort. And like that, if that's what you are, I feel like that's what you should call it date. Okay,
Jacqueline Misla
so I'm gonna think about my experience for a second. Yes, I have some questions in there. So I was a serial monogamist for the majority of my dating and adult life, gotten I met my ex husband at 21. We were together for 13 Somewhat years and then was it started my new relationship with my current wife, we had been together almost seven years. So for almost 15 years, I did not date. And when I was dating, there were no apps where that was not a thing. And so launching into the dating world, after so long of not being in it and reemerging in a world that looked very different than I was expecting, and then used to, was challenging. So I'm interested in your feedback around that. But what it makes me wonder is I did to Ben's point, I struggled with, how much do I need to know about what I want now with the dating versus the long term? And what do I communicate now about what I want now versus the long term? So what should somebody do when they're first emerging in the dating world? What's the first thing that we should be thinking about? And then how do we communicate that to ourselves and to other people?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, what should I do?
Effy
Okay, so here's, I think, with pretty much all the advice I give to anybody, often the answer is like this, which is Know thyself, you kind of need to start with this, at least have an understanding of where you are today, right. And then, and then be prepared to then talk about it. But in terms of, and then one of the biggest differences, I feel like, let's call it regular dating, right, regular dating and open dating or poly dating is, with regular dating, people tend to sort of have an idea of the qualities that they're looking for another person. And then they go on dates, and they're kind of chasing that without a real kind of idea of the relationship or what they are. And there's like this, they're afraid of like talking about the relationship part of things or an idea of what they want. They're kind of like, Oh, I'd like the other person to be this, this and this. And they tend to be these like generic qualities anyway. And then you kind of bounce from date to date.
Unknown Speaker
Well, I want to I want to challenge that because I think like, that is while I would say that is true of the larger society on regular dating, that's not what you actually think monogamous dating should look like. So for defining our terms here, like regular dating shouldn't necessarily look like people being afraid to talk about the shape of their relationship. Right?
Jacqueline Misla
Right. I think that's what I think that's what I'm hearing the distinction that's what resonates is that with regular dating or monogamous dating, you're looking for the type of person that could be a partner. And the thing that you're focused on is the person not the type of relationship structure
Effy
Exactly. Because the relationship structure is given by looking to you like, you're going to meet somebody, it's gonna be monogamous, you're gonna have babies. You don't go around saying, I'm looking for this type of relationship. You're like, you're looking for that kind of person, person. And that person has a set of qualities that you're looking for, and
Unknown Speaker
everything else is pretty much locked in.
Jacqueline Misla
Exactly.
Effy
That's what you assume. Right? You go in with the assumption. That's what's gonna happen.
Jacqueline Misla
Right? Right, which we should note here, that for those who are not interested in open relationships, or polyamorous relationships, or justice, why you came upon this podcast somehow. But you're interested in monogamy all of these things are for monogamy as well, within a monogamous relationship, defining the types of way you define what monogamy is, what infidelity is, what good relationship and connection looks like, those conversations should not be a given. We should be having those two. Yes,
Effy
for Absolutely.
Unknown Speaker
So to recap what you just said. So regular dating is pretty much where you are just looking for a person because the type of relationship is more or less assumed. So that's that. So then you move on to open dating, like how that's different.
Effy
Yes. So open dating is you have to go in there and talk about the type of relationship that you're looking for. And also be able to talk about where you are today, you know, so you kind of need to know thyself, right? So I'm, I am, you know, I'm in I mean, I'm in a relationship. I live with somebody, I'm just making this up. And I have, you know, another partner on the side and I'm looking to date to meet people to explore, you know, New York City, you know, or I'm, you know, I'm dating to find somebody to, you know, have like short term Fun, flirty, French style affairs with you know, so you kind of have to have an idea of what you're looking for in terms of the relationship and be okay, talk about that.
Jacqueline Misla
I think as much as you can before you get out there start dating, you should be thoughtful about that. And I also think that part of it will be figuring out along the way, I think I was probably I needed maybe three people before I realized that I enjoy kind of the girlfriend role, if you will, like I, you know, want to check in and be like, how's your day? And oh, no, you're not feeling well, can I bring you some soup? And that may not be things that casual date would do. And that's the role I felt more comfortable with. But I didn't realize that at first, I think I wish I would have because then that would have those three days, you know, relationships short lived, would have may have gotten a little easier. Or I may not have dug into those or explored those more. But there's those ways of doing it, like paying attention for sure. Exactly. And
Effy
I think, you know, at curious Fox, we talk a lot about inspiration and permission, right. And I think one of the reasons why we do or, you know, that I'm very passionate about it is because the chances are you may have actually known that about yourself. But the idea of bringing that to the table to say, I am already in I'm married, and I'm doing this dating thing. And even though I want it to have the qualities of dating, I like the playing the role of a girlfriend. So I want the casual the casual pneus of dating, while the intimacy of a girlfriend. Yes, right. See, I
Jacqueline Misla
should have come to you. Yes, all those things,
Effy
right? Yeah. Do you think this is what I mean? About like, the Know thyself, and I, like, you know, I'm with everything that I talked about. Non monogamy as you said, it, it just applies to monogamy, you know, it will make your monogamous life better as well. But let's stick to what we have in mind, which is like non monogamy. And I think this is what I mean, about Know thyself, like have, first of all, knowing all the different ways that you can have a relationship. So like, knowing that it is available to you to have a casual illness, have a have a, like a dating relationship with the intimacy of a girlfriend, and to be able to ask for it and articulate that, right? It's not going to be everyone's game, people aren't going to like, people aren't gonna line up around the corner again, I'll be that person, I'll be that person. But if you are that clear about it, the chances are, you're going to find somebody's gonna be like, oh, yeah, I get that. I want to I want to do that.
Unknown Speaker
I'll tell you that the temptation after this interaction that I had with this girl, is to say, well, I asked for that thing. And basically, I lost, I had to give up on this connection with someone who I would have liked, and maybe would have had a good time with had it not been for that I was honest about this thing, or that I knew that I wanted this thing, like the temptation is to say, well, maybe I should just go back to like, looking for a normal, monogamous type thing, because it's going to it's going to mean not eliminating interesting people like this one.
Effy
So I mean, I can give you a reading with side, I can give you like straight up dating advice on the side, which is, you may feel like that what you're ignoring is qualities that for me that that are like coming through for me like so a sense of adventure, a certain a certain sense of curiosity, towards certain topics, right? So there are qualities in a person that pushes back and says, I don't want to play that game. So even though it the story happens to be about monogamy and non monogamy, the quality of the quality of the person saying I'm not game for that is is probably not the right match for you right now in your life. Right? Because you are just discovering this right now. Right? It is kind of intriguing and important to you, even though you're like I can give it up. Yes. But right now, it's intriguing and important and important to you. And you're like wandering around and experiencing it? Do you want to shut it down? Or do you want to find somebody who's equally curious and adventurous? And also just like, check it out with you with the understanding that that's not that's not that might not be your long term plan, right?
Jacqueline Misla
Would you have regret if you didn't take advantage of those experiences?
Unknown Speaker
So what you're saying is that the, if I choose to accept this thing that I now know about myself, that it will, even though it'll be harder to maybe find the sort of people that it is important that I that I acknowledged that I know this thing
Effy
it's important to you enough for you to bring it out, which I think is one of the next next things that we're
Jacqueline Misla
gonna as well but to his point, so should then so one of the pieces of advice that I've heard in the Pali world is DT within your species, right? So non monogamous people should date non monogamous people and don't try to convert a monogamous person because they don't. And it sounds a little bit like what you're saying is should you then be narrowing the field to folks who are interested and curious about open relationships? So I asked that question to you, should we limit ourselves? And if not, how, then do we introduce that we are in and want open relationships?
Effy
So the date yourself. I'm phrase comes from great sex educator called Reid Mihalko. Um, he coined that a while ago and I think when he says that it's like, at least like hear it in multiple ways like that your species in terms of poly people, they poly people can keep You'll be kinky people. So yes, that's a good safe rule of thumb, right? My experience has been that there are many, many people out there who haven't experienced or even thought about polyamory, non monogamy, kink, tantra, blah, blah, blah, blah. So if you just stick to your own, like people that, you know, if you date within your species, the chances are you're not gonna meet new people. Right. And there are plenty of people out there who would be interested in this if they were if they were introduced this in the right way. Right. And I think it's really important, but it is, I think what that brings up for me is that when you're doing this, you need to do it transparently. Right? So when you're dating, be transparent about where you are, what you're exploring right now, what you're interested in, you don't have to say, this is where I am forever. But right now, I'm exploring six parties, which is what Ben said, right? Now know that everybody knows that Ben hangs out and say, Smarties, everyone. So,
Unknown Speaker
this is where you're at. Very, very mad. This is like, hyper transparency.
Effy
And it is an I know you, right? And you know, it's my doing that, you know, it's like Smarties. But it's an exploration for you. I know that you're not like, I am now a part of this community. And for the rest of my life, I'm going to be sex parties. In fact, I'm going to conceive my children at sex parties, right? That's not where you're at. You're like, you know, somebody, like opened the door to me, and I looked inside, and it will be intriguing. I walked through, I'm still exploring, at some point, I might walk out and shut the door behind me. But right now I'm in that space. And I think there is value in being transparent in that.
Jacqueline Misla
So that's interesting, because then what if you are the other side of that conversation? What if you're the person hearing somebody say, Okay, right. Now, this is where I'm at?
Effy
Great question. Um, great question. Because we often talk about this stuff, always with the person who is open or who's exploring, right? What if you're, what if you go on that first date? Maybe you even, we do want to talk a little bit about online dating. And I believe that it should be on your profile. But we can talk about that a little bit, a little bit. So you met somebody in real life and somebody brings, you know, you've met somebody in real life? someone's like, Yeah, I'm kind of into like, I'm interested, I have a partner, and we're an open relationship, or I'm kind of interested in sex parties. Here's what I would advise these people. pause, take a breath. Check in with yourself, right? If you haven't, like an instant, absolutely no way, I don't want to even like be across from this person for one more second, walk away. Right, you're entitled to whatever. If you're able to just sit in it for a minute, I really, really would advise you to see if you can take a sidestep into curiosity. And just ask them what it's about. Right? Because I think that one it makes for interesting conversation, too. It makes her incredibly revealing conversation, like, what's up with this person? Why are they interested? What is you know, what is open? What is an open relationship? How does that function? What does that look like? How, you know, how do they make it work? You know, what is this ex parte? Why would somebody go to a sex party? like I would my my recommendation would be to go into curious mode. And the reason why I say that is because even though it might not be for you? Well, number one, you might suddenly discover like something is intriguing, right? You might hear something that like touches, a point that you're like, oh, you know what, that's something that I'd really would want to explore, right? Or it will give you, um, you'll learn something new, just like something that exists in the world that is new and exciting and different, that you just get to learn about firsthand experience. And
Jacqueline Misla
it gives you the person defining what is important for them and their needs, gives you permission to do the same with you, you know, being and now I'm in two really healthy, beautiful, polyamorous relationships with the opportunity to explore. I have the both the safety and loyalty of loving relationship and the opportunity to try new things. I have roots and wings. And so if you're willing and interested in what that feels like, you know, you may want to go on a second date.
Effy
Absolutely, absolutely. The thing that I would caution against here's the thing, this is where I was like if you can sit in it for a minute. Now, the noise around this, which is essentially what I what I call the noise around us is all the things that we're hearing. It's the TV, it's the radio, it's advertising, its marketing, its Instagram, it's like your your your bubble where you're hearing the noise. Most of the time, we've been told certain things over and over and most of us are in echo chambers. So if you meet somebody who's outside your Echo Chamber, somebody who's you that you've never thought about open relationships, you met somebody who's saying he's an open that he or she has an open relationship, they're an open relationship. This is your opportunity to hear something that is not in your Echo Chamber who is not in your bubble. So take that, seize that opportunity. And add that conversation, that noise into your general noise and see how you feel. Because there might be that you're sort of you think you're a certain way, because you just never thought another way is available, or the people who do those other things are weirdos. And then you're now sitting across the table with somebody who's like, this person is actually nice. They're kind they're articulate they we have common interests. They seem to be really engaged about their you know, about their relationships and their thoughts, and they're articulate, not the person I thought would be in an open relationship, right? So just challenge yourself, right? Challenge yourself. Well, that's
Jacqueline Misla
what is like permission to your point, all that noise layers on external expectations. And then you're the internal now narrative that was built around the external expectations. And that conversation gives you permission, maybe to strip some of that away, right? And say, Who am I underneath all of this noise? Who do I exist underneath all of those things? And so Okay, so once you get clear on that, and you have that level of transparency with yourself? How then do you discuss I want I, you know, I want this, this is what this looks like, for me, like, what's the language? Can you give us some tips around? How do you actually facilitate that conversation?
Effy
Sure. Um, I think what you would really benefit from is to use inviting language. So be open and inviting about your relationship structure. So ask things, you know, say things like, Would you like to discuss where we fall on the non monogamy spectrum? For example, or questions that aren't more questions and invitations than definitive status statements? Right. So invite people, ask people like, you know, what are your thoughts on open relationships? And would you like me to tell you about, you know, what it means to be an open relationship for me? Would you like me to tell you why I choose to be in this relationship? So an open and open inviting language, rather than saying things like, you know, I have a girlfriend, I have two days a week that's available. I'm going to see you between these these hours. Exactly. I'm scheduling it out right here. And that's just like this. This, you know, that's kind of, you know,
Jacqueline Misla
well, to your point earlier, too. And I also believe this, you talked about using the dating apps well, and I agree that you should be posting this information on there, that potentially the first time you have this conversation shouldn't be in person. I mean, maybe depending on your style. But it's interesting, because in my experience, I had it, I had an OKCupid account. And it was the very first thing that was on there, right under my name and age and whatever required information they gave. And I had probably three experiences, some folks who were in the world and you know, interested, some folks who clearly didn't read it. And then we would start having conversation, I would reference my wife, and then there would be shocking horror, or folks who like exotic sized, and was like, Oh, that means that you want to have a threesome with me and another woman. So despite all of those varied ways of people hearing it, I still think it's really important to put it out there. I don't know, it sounds like you feel the same way.
Effy
Yeah, I have mixed feelings about actually, they're not mixed at all. I have feelings about online dating. So a couple of things. Online dating, seems on the surface, like a great way to meet people. But where we are with online dating today is that the apps are designed primarily, first and foremost, for engagement in the app not to get you on to a date, they want you on the app. In fact, a really good way to sort of see that you know how that's working out for you is the if you find yourself changing from swiping on Instagram, to like getting bored of Instagram and switching over to your Tinder or Bumble, or whatever your app and start swiping on there. If you're mindlessly switching from Instagram, Facebook and Tinder, right? You are in that loop. You're sucked into the swiping, and it becomes more about a game exactly like you're getting a dopamine hits. You're getting the swiping the rush of the swiping. It just proves to you that those apps aren't interested in you dating. They're interested in you being on the app,
Unknown Speaker
but but that's that's actually not how hip hinge is designed. I'm
Effy
gonna get the hint. All right, I'm gonna get paid.
Unknown Speaker
But my point is that it's not designed with the swiping in mind. it is you do have these personality bullet points that you hit where you see, okay, do I and this other person have a similar outlook on on how to approach a dating app. And for one thing, you see that but then also, do we share interests and you are encouraged to discuss those interests with others.
Effy
And I think some apps are looking at those things and being more problem solving of like, how do we make more meaningful connections online? But here's the thing, it's not really about hinge and I'm going to talk about hinge not because I don't agree with them, but I will tell you why hinge like you're dating on hinges might be an issue. What I just want to talk about first of all, don't what I'm what I'm getting to is don't put your all of your eggs in the same in one basket, right? So online dating solely online dating is hard. Those apps aren't on your side, they're on their side, they have engagement in mind. And you just like you're doing the mindless swiping the person on the other side is also doing mindless swiping on most apps, right, which is why people didn't read exactly that. People don't read like they're just swiping. So um, so that's just like, just bear that in mind with online dating, if the only place that your online dating, is the only place you're dating is online, I would review that. And I would also read, most people have the illusion that always saves time, right? I can't be constantly going to, you know, events and meeting people. Like I don't have time, like I'm swiping, I don't have the data. I wish I had the data. But I would put money on that the collective time that you spend on engaging with the apps in this sort of mindless way. Or like how many dropped threads you have, like how many how many conversations that you initiate and halfway through, you got distracted and went somewhere else because that connection is meaningless, your brain isn't acknowledging that connection as a connection as a real person, right? So just the time that was poured into these online apps, the results are not there. It's not. It's not cost effective time cost effective. You know, it's just not a good good place to do this thing. However, what do you do? What do you get to do on these dates is at least try to be transparent, at least try to put on your profile the things that are important to you. So that's like, that is a plus. Now what I'm gonna saying is that don't do it ever. Just bear in mind like be really mindful of how using dating apps
Jacqueline Misla
and which app is for which type of age. Exactly.
Effy
And which exactly which apps are you dating on? So hinge, there's nothing wrong with hinge. I believe that slogan is built to be deleted. Yeah. Designed to be newly designed to be deleted, right? And they talk about, they encourage and champion monogamous relationships, finding the one finding the one.
Unknown Speaker
True, I see the dilemma.
Jacqueline Misla
When you found a woman via who's also trying to find the one you shared that you're interested in,
Unknown Speaker
I wonder if people on there? I mean, maybe this is so foolish, actually, I can already see how foolish This is. But maybe there are people on there who are basically as disregarding of the branding, as I am, you know,
Jacqueline Misla
right? The same people who didn't read that I was married. And then were shocked when I shared that. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker
I guess I guess the point being that if I'm going to look for people have have maybe less traditional tastes than going to an app that's branded on traditional values is maybe the wrong place to go. Except that the other app that I was suggested that I went to for a moment for interest was field. I gotta tell you, that it's trash. I mean, I'm, I'm so sorry, to anyone out there who is, you know, who has stock in field, I suppose. I don't know who else isn't really on the side of the it's trash. Everything on there is just, it's everyone's description. First of all, everyone's so afraid to put their face on there that it's sometimes people just put the city skyline on there and say, if we match, I'll send pics, but they don't say anything else about themselves. So all you have is a fake name. Because it's an alias. It's like a letter the letter L and age you and if we match, then I'll send you pics. You don't know their God dang gender. So I mean, it's useless. The thing I like about hinges that at least there's the personality, which is the thing that I'm most interested in in the first place. Yes.
Effy
I don't disagree with you, Ben. I'm not a big fan of field. I know for all the things that you've said. It's not I where it's today. It's not functioning very well. And what you've done is you've just mentioned the two extremes. You went from hinge to feel right, you're like, I'm doing hinge super traditional. And then I like doubled and feel, which is essentially anonymous sex app, right? There are apps that are in the middle, right? You know, old fashioned they've been around the longest OKCupid one of the most common ones for people who are polyamorous because they've actually put the options in their filters. So they've they've introduced open relationship, polyamory as well as a broad spectrum of genders and orientations. Way back at the beginning of this conversation like years ago, they were like, Oh, you want to be open back you can be open,
Unknown Speaker
which maybe to your point does a lot I used to do the necessary filtering. And it doesn't offer transparency however, it eliminates that crowd of people you were talking about that may be interested but have no awareness about this thing.
Jacqueline Misla
Maybe, maybe not. I, you know, in the spirit of transparency, the my partner, I met her on OKCupid she was monogamous before this. We she swiped and was like, hmm, tell me about what open relationships are like. And we started talking about it. And I'm like, let's talk about in person. That was seven months ago.
Unknown Speaker
Let's talk about it over camera.
Jacqueline Misla
Let's go to a more private location. So I don't know. I mean, not to say that that is the common story. But that that that exactly what we're talking about is what happened to me.
Effy
Yeah, I just Yeah, I mean, so the thing? Again, I'm not, no one's paying me, maybe they will pay us
Jacqueline Misla
any app except.
Effy
But basically, I think that, Okay, keep it as a good option, because it has like a massive user base. And users are used to seeing people having these preferences, right. So if you're sort of, you don't necessarily filter, but you're looking across the broader spectrum of people. You're not, you know, you're not in a monogamy, you know, app looking for someone who wants to adventure into sex parties, right? That's like a, that's like a harder, that's a harder quest, then chances of you finding somebody like that on OkCupid. So the moral of the story, I personally don't care about which app, the moral of the story for the listeners is, be mindful of the app that you're dating on, you know, pick the ones that make sense for you pick the ones that are more on brand for the way that you want to date. So for Ben, you know, hint, I know you have loyalties that we won't bring up but you know, like, be polished at one another, as well as hinge.
Unknown Speaker
Okay. Advice received.
Jacqueline Misla
Okay, so apart from dating online, then I said all over. For all of us who existed in dated before online dating, there's a thing where you can actually meet people in real life. Yeah. Can we talk a little bit about that? So you're not going to get online? Fe? Where are you meeting people?
Effy
Yes, in real life, who've put your phone down, attend local events. If you are really, really looking, if you're like I want to meet, I want to meet like minded people. By the way, if you're new to this, going into places where people self identify as openly in an open relationship polyamorous in those kinds of things is actually really helpful. Because until you get your language down, and you're in a place that you can be the educator in, in the in the dialog, it's actually kind of hard to try and like figure things out for yourself while trying to explain yourself to somebody who's like entirely new to this, right? So a really good place to start this stuff is to date people who are in open relationships or in polyamorous relationships are looking to be in one. And they have been doing it for a while and they have their language down. You can also get like good pro tips of how they handle it right? So attend local events. The thing about people in open relationships and polyamorous legions was by design, there's social people. And they often throw parties, events, socials, gatherings, movie nights, game nights, endless gatherings, so
Jacqueline Misla
check where you are. Yeah, depending on your city. So here in New York, certainly curious Fox, we have events, the joy list is a great place to access events where there's connection, but meetup. I mean, no matter where you are, yes, meetup has amazing list of small and large police events that you can
Effy
just, yeah, put polyamory and this the town that you're in or open relationship with town that you're in or you will meet up is great, great resource for finding local events and, you know, show up, show up, be kind make conversation, be authentic. Tell people that's your new thing. And, and, you know, have conversations with people.
Jacqueline Misla
Yeah, when it's interesting, it's one of the things that you talked about in terms of language is, you know, it's important to learn the language of this world. One of the things that is important in the polyamorous world and open relationships is consent, you know, in terms of how you get involved in relationships, and sexual interact and things like that. And so we've talked a lot about this, like this consent culture, both in terms of how you interact with somebody physically, but also making sure that people are enthusiastic about whatever. So talk a little bit more about that, because I think it's so important.
Effy
Yes, yes. It's definitely a culture right. So it's a it's a it's a way of being right and poly communities, open relationships, people who are in open relationships, people sex positive people at the core of all this is consent culture, the idea that whatever you're engaging with is every everybody's enthusiastically He engaged they enthusiastically saying yes, like hell, you know, people say things like hell yes or hell no, you know, so understand that the wishy washy and so maybe I guess Sure, if you want to do it is not going to fly, you're gonna have to, you know, understand that you got to have to own your yeses know your nose if you change your mind, you know, communicate and understand that there's a culture that exists within these communities.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I mean that reminds me of how this girl which I believe I gave her the name Melissa. Melissa reaction was very much like, okay, yeah, that's not really what I'm ultimately kind of wanting to do. You can almost even just ignore whatever words are coming out of someone's mouth and just read their tone. Yeah.
Jacqueline Misla
That's a no. And even though she was willing to kind of be in it for the rest of that night, if you will, that she when she went home, it sounded like when she thought about it.
Unknown Speaker
So when I arrived at now,
Effy
yeah, right. Yeah. And sometimes that's what it takes, by the way, you don't automatically know. But I think then the answer is I don't know right now.
Jacqueline Misla
Right. And so that's good advice. We talked about the people on either end of the dating table. So if you are the person who is saying I'm in an open relationship, or that's something I'm interested in exploring, how do you feel about that? You're listening out for someone saying, You know what, that does sound interesting to me. And if you are the other end, and you're being told, then you should really answer from a place of even if you need to pause and say, I don't know how I feel about that. I'm enjoying this conversation. Let's continue to talk tonight. And then go back like Melissa and really think about it and say, Yes, I'm gonna let's do this. Let's try it or that's, I'm not into it.
Effy
Yeah, yeah. And just did like a few tips on consent culture, it actually there's some practicalities to it, you'll find, for example. So in sort of, with the Nepali culture, especially in the sex positive world, people will ask you often if they can hug you, right, that you so mainstream, we don't have such an in depth understanding and practice of consent, you know, like, it sort of non consensual touching, just random casual touching doesn't really happen in sex positive communities and polyamorous communities. People tend to be a lot more verbal at every stage. Hi, good to see you. Can I give you a hug, which is interesting,
Jacqueline Misla
because someone I went to my, you know, first play party at some point, and felt so much more safe than I did at any bar, any party, any event that honestly I've ever been to beforehand. And I think that that was a surprise to me and folks who are not necessarily in the open world is you assume that there's like listless, Sidious behavior. People are like hanging from ceilings. And I mean, that does happen as well. There's a lot of, but there because of consent culture, there's actually such a respect for what Tanami and safety and yeses mean yeses and noes being knows that I think that's important just to for sure.
Effy
Yeah. And also, I just want to put a little caveat, since we were talking about this within can often with a consent culture, we obviously end up talking about sort of sex side of things. So that's kind of where where it really becomes very practical, right? But I think consent I when I do my workshop, I break it down which was really helpful for me my nerdy sensibilities years of studying Latin for apparently no reason at the time, but now I'm really happy I did. It can break down consent con together sent Santeria together feel. So the etymology of the word comes from the idea that you and I are on the same page, we feel together the same thing, right? And so consent culture isn't just about touching and sex and consent culture is about, are we on the same page, we want to be here doing this right now with each other? And that is that and we take the responsibility of seeing so or saying no.
Jacqueline Misla
Right? And that goes back to I want to say, tip number one, which was Know thyself, because not only again, on the side of the person who's asking, Are you looking out for that, but the sight of the person who's being asked to know yourself enough to know what it is that you want? I think what you were talking about in terms of the noise and the external expectations, sometimes I'm gonna speak particular as women, we go along with things sometimes that we are not comfortable with. There are many times I'm sure that people have been involved in both relationships, emotional and physical. And you thought, Well, I'm already here. I'm already started. I said, Yes, up into this point. I can't say no. Now, what are they going to think? You know, I don't want to ignore this person. I don't want to miss them. And giving ourselves permission to both sit and explore what we want and then say yes or no, based on that. Sure.
Effy
Absolutely. Let me put it. Let me put it this way. Again, just to re emphasize that the importance of consent right in for regular people. You know, you call yourself monogamous vanilla like those people hear me next time You're halfway through your friend dumping her was over, you know, her ex girlfriend, and you've come home from your own thing and you don't have brain space to listen to her, but you find yourself, you know, taking her, you know, listening to her and taking her pain. You haven't consented. Right? That conversation needs to start with. I really need to tell you, I'm hurting. Are you in a position to hear me right now? Like, I want to tell you about my woes with my ex, ex boyfriend, ex girlfriend, whatever it is. That is what we mean by consent culture, right? That is like, I'm about to like, emotionally dump on you. And I needed your my friend, are you in a good place for that? And then you can say, you can say, give me 10 minutes. Let me like, you know, go meditate, have a glass of water, like gather myself and I'll be ready. Or you know what, I love you. I'm sorry, you're hurting. I just can't do it right now. I had a really hard day. And I'm not I just don't have the brain space to give you the attention in the space that you know that you need. Right? So consent culture isn't just about can I touch you? Can I fuck you? Can I whatever. It's like, Are we okay to do the thing that we want to do right now?
Jacqueline Misla
Are we feeling the same thing together?
Effy
Right, right. Exactly. Exactly.
Jacqueline Misla
Okay, so you get your language together. You are looking for the enthusiastic Yes. across the table. You don't get it? Maybe you get Melissa. I like what I've seen sometimes happen in the world is then the poly preaching begins. Right? Oh, yeah. Then it's like, okay, so it feels like you're not really set. So let me give you the 10 tips. Were there were 10 reasons as to why this is awesome. Um, yeah. What are your thoughts on that? Oh, no,
Effy
no, don't do it. Don't do it. There is the rhetoric that poly people are more evolved. I hate that. untrue. untrue. There is the rhetoric that Poly is more natural. I also hate that, you know, none of these things stand up, you know, you're not more evolved, if you're falling, you've just made a decision, you made a decision for yourself and good for you. It's not more or less natural, even if it is it doesn't matter. In the 21st century, that we live in humans, in the modern life, do 1,000,001 unnatural things every day to sitting at a desk for seven hours in a Z shape with a laptop in front of your in front of your eyes that emit blue light is not natural, but we do it anyway. Because that's what we want to do. So to say that polyamory is a natural human way of being is not a good enough reason to, to encourage and annoy people into doing anything that you want to do. I'm also saying It's better. It's any kind of comparative language. Don't do it.
Jacqueline Misla
I think there's also a difference between need. We talked about this in nonviolent communication work, right? So the difference between needs and strategies, and so knowing what you want versus knowing how to get there. And so I think a subcategory of poly preaching, may be trying to preach the different type, the particular type of way in which you want to be open. And I think that's something that needs to happen in those conversations, too. i This is something a trap I have fallen in where you're like, you're open, I'm open. Yeah, like, let's hold hands and skip away. Like we've solved it, we're good. And then at some point, and really should be like, You meant that. Oh, you wanted to like fall in love? No, I just wanted to, you know, go to a party together. Oh, like, Oh, you wanted to meet my parents? Like, no, no, I just thought that we were gonna, like, you know, do this thing you want to move in? And so having conversations around what does open mean for you versus me? And then not trying to convince again, going back, they all relate to each other? Right? Don't preach about it and look for the consent around it. Like how then do we do that? Yeah, yeah, sure.
Effy
Absolutely. And I think the if you if you have a tendency to pull the fridge, here's, let me give you tips on how to do that well, in a way that it's not oppressive to the other person, work on presenting the idea in a way that invokes curiosity, not as a prescription to the other person. But if you can make it like this is the only way to do it. Well, if you can, if you can frame it, and be articulate about it in a way that invokes curiosity, and then you innocently without agenda. Respond to that curiosity is really the only way to get people interested only authentic, only ethical way to get people interested in non monogamy in open relationships in in polyamory, I mean anything to be honest, but like if that's what if you want to make evangelize? If you really believe that the structure that you've chosen for yourself is good for everybody else or good for the people that you mean is find a way to present it in a way that it piques their
Jacqueline Misla
curiosity and even same going back to nonverbal communication we they often then statements With for me, right? So even like, this is the right structure for me. This is really where it Yeah,
Effy
right, right. And experience is for me, because this is what I get out of it. Yeah. Because it fills this need, because it, you know, exposes me to these things. And then you know, see if it piques the other person's interests, the idea is not to convince, don't try to convince people because if you do convince people, if there's not right for them, you've led them astray. And they might come with you for a short while, but the chances are, they're going to be miserable down the line.
Jacqueline Misla
That's true. Okay, so we talked about knowing yourself. We talked about making sure that you're transparent, we talked about tips for how to have the conversation. We talked about going to local events and consent culture and poly preaching. Anything else people need to know. And why and why hinges okay, but And okay, cubed. Be cautious of all other.
Effy
Yeah, um, have fun, have fun, have fun, have fun, have fun.
Jacqueline Misla
I know poor Ben, this, this conversation started with them telling us and we're like, let me now it's preach to you for 45 minutes about things you could have done better.
Unknown Speaker
I think that, you know, the thing that started happening in this interaction with this girl is it really stopped being fun. It wasn't fun. It felt like pulling nails to even keep the conversation going. And yeah, so No, that's good advice.
Effy
Well, I mean, the other thing is, you walked away like you came, you know, you came and told us a story. And you're like, you're like, Damn, I missed out on a connection that could have been, you know, amazing, right? And you've disregarded the two awesome dates that you've had. Right? Like you had fun. Like you said, I really liked there's a reason why you going, I want more of it. Because there was some part of it. That was fun, right? So I think some of it is also just embracing that part of it and count that as connection like you did get to know somebody you didn't know before you had fun for the eight hour date that you had that eight hours of fun you had in your life. Like that is partly a success. Right?
Jacqueline Misla
And that's something there if success and failures only whether or not people are together forever. Right, then that's not a great way of looking at it. Yeah, that's true. Like,
Effy
going back. Amazing. We've just come back into full circle and what I'm about to say, enjoy the connection. Yeah, embrace and enjoy the connection, like in that one minute connection, 20 minute connection, eight hour connection, it's a connection. It is it is you've grown, whether you realize it or not, you found things out. And I think if you if you do end up for some reason, in an open relationship with polyamory, if that's where you ended up or not, it is about the connections that you're having. Often people are saying the reason why they like being in poly is because they embrace that they like the connection that they're having. So, you know, I'm a big fan of kimchi, Cuddles tick, Wolf, I really recommend you, you know, read their stuff, they often talk about that, like it is the connection in the moment. That is, that is the thing that we talked about that you know, helps cure depression and, and helps you heal from Greek grief and, and gets you to grow, right. And if that connection is one minute, one hour, eight hours, it was there. So embrace it. And that's what
Jacqueline Misla
we're talking about in the beginning, too, about not looking for a particular type of person. But if you really are fully present in the connection, you then will learn more about yourself. You learn more about different types of people, you're gonna have a conversation that you may never had before, like, stay
Effy
in the moment, don't think about are we gonna do you know, are we gonna have kids? Are you gonna like stay in the moment and embrace the moment embrace the connection? Okay. Right. And we came full circle.
Jacqueline Misla
I like how that happened. Um, all right, so we talked about going to local events. And we are going to be sponsoring a local event. Yes. So if you're in the New York City area, on Wednesday, July 24. That's next week, we are going to have flirt night. So we if you ever I mean, I love flirting, can we just pause for a second and say I love learning. And I love flirting when there isn't a need or an expectation that that's going to lead to anything else like it could? Sure. But like sometimes just the pure act of flirting,
Effy
I hear you loud and clear. Flirting and making out.
Jacqueline Misla
Underrated. Underrated, right? It has to like lead us Why Why does it lead? I have a daughter and it's amazing to see her play with other kids. She'll go to the park or to the beach. And she'll like run up to some kid or someone will run up to her and say, Hey, do you want to be my friend? And they're like, yeah, and then they play for a few hours. And at the end they're like, Thanks. That was fun buying that there's no exchanging of information. There's no conversation about what happens next. It was like that was fun. Thanks. Yeah. And I feel like that's what Miss missing with flirting like just to like anything again, if it leads to another connection. Fantastic. Right?
Unknown Speaker
Right. I would find it pretty upsetting if your elementary school age was like exchanging email addresses on their kids
Jacqueline Misla
on the playground. Right now they have phones and watches and all sorts of ways to connect. That's crazy to me. But if you are interested in flirting and meeting other people who are like minded in terms of being curious and exploring many different types of ways of being and connecting and being relationship, then come July 24. Yeah, we'll put all of the information in our show notes. We will.
Effy
Yeah. And it's, it's, it's, it's our curious Fox Soiree. We're going to be cute. We're going to curate some connections. We're working on how, you know, we're working on conversations that you wouldn't necessarily how but maybe will be a better experience if you did. So we're going to curate some conversations, we're going to create some connections, we want to make it inclusive for people to come solo people to come as a couple of the columns as a trial to whatever configuration that you're in. And we want to, you know, we're going to put you on and we don't put people in a room, we're going to dial up the, the environment and and see what happens.
Jacqueline Misla
Yeah, yeah. And if you are hearing this information, you're like, I need to hear more, I want to understand more about this world, or I've been doing this for a while. But this conversation is great, and I want to share it with other folks, there are a lot of different ways you can find us. So we exist on Facebook, and Instagram, and Patreon. We are curious foxes. If you love the work that we do, and want to support it and support the growth of this so that we can do more, go on to Patreon. And please support us. If you are interested in hearing different stories of people who are thriving and seeing articles and being engaged in you know, the events that we're having gone to Facebook and get all that if you want to see what we look like, go into Instagram and get plenty of pictures. We do a lot of events and we livestream them. And so we'll put them on to Facebook and Patreon. We do the podcast and we record some of our events so that you can come back to the podcast and listen to more of what we do, we actually have a few different types of podcasts that we do. So we have an event that we do each month where we have a panel discussion where we choose a different topic. And we explore that with a panel of peers. And so that exists. We also will be doing more episodes like this. And we're gonna explore other things like attachment and new relationship energy and infidelity, all the different things that come up as we talk about new relationships and open relationships and polyamorous relationships. And then we have these amazing interviews that we do with people. So we have one that's coming up soon, with someone who we met named Ryan, who I don't even know how to it's it's, you got to just listen to it. It's fantastic. It pushes back on what we think about relationships and families and parenting.
Effy
And so Ryan is good and pregnancy and love. And yeah, it's it's one of the most riveting stories I've ever heard.
Jacqueline Misla
It's powerful. So we'll we'll share some more information about that soon. We'll put that on your radar.
Effy
Absolutely absolutely. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind, and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious, curious, curious, curious, stay curious. Stay curious.
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