Ep 79: Roots and Wings and The Beanstalk
Art by @reesabobeesa
Why is it that when we feel comfy and settled, we suddenly long for passion and freedom? And conversely, why do a string of spontaneous adventures have us longing for stability? Is it possible for us to be both planted and to fly?
Effy and Jacqueline discuss how to balance the comfort of being rooted and settled with the desire for variety and passion but not before they catch up on crushes, books, family, and city life vs country.
You can find the Fuel Gauge Activity worksheet mentioned in this episode here:
https://craftyourpath.org/cyp-worksheets/day-1
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Curious Fox @wearecuriousfoxes
Effy Blue @coacheffyblue
Jacqueline Misla @jacquelinemisla
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TRANSCRIPT:
(intro)
Hello, hi. Hi. Hi. Hello. I'm curious about curious about I'm curious about cute is about building open, authentic, loving relationship? I'm curious about jealousy I'm curious about polyamory. I just mean that you're fucking all the time. How can I tell my parents that my partner is already married and curious about how do you know when you're too busy to have another relationship? I'm curious about dominant and subordinate relationship. I'm curious about sexual health. How can relationships evolve with people as they grow and change?
Effy
Magnus mica a really good fidget toy because you can do that thing when you put the same size against each other and they you make them push. And it feels like there was a sweet spot where they will just like keep steady, but it's so slim. It's so hard to find. You can just like totally spend hours trying to balance magnets, you know, and I think that is a good metaphor for trying to balance that Xavi stability and passion and variety.
Jacqueline
Welcome to the curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex and relationships. My name is Jacqueline Misla. Lately, I've been having this feeling of restlessness. We've finally had a string of sunny days. And my daughter shared that on one particularly warm day, her class poured out into the yard for recess and feeling the warmth of the sun on their faces. They peeled off their jackets, threw them on the ground and ran around the yard shouting, I'm free, I'm free. And that is how I feel. I want to peel everything off my responsibilities, my obligations, my work meetings and deadlines and dishes and dinner Oh, my God dinner every single night. It's time for me to cook dinner again. When I just cook dinner the day before. I want to peel it all off and run and shout, I'm free. I'm free. And as I was reflecting on this the other day, I started to get this feeling of deja vu, this strong sensation that I felt this way before. So I went to the curious Fox podcast and started scrolling through the old episodes, as I'm sure you do when you're trying to find the answer to a problem. And there was a conversation between f&i From July 2021, called roots and wings. So I listened to the episode and took notes, again, as I'm sure that you do when you're trying to get to the bottom of something. And I was amused to discover that I did, in fact feel exactly like this two years ago. And indeed, according to the episode and 2021 me, I seem to feel this way, just about every two years. And see, and craving change, craving room to breathe, and lightness and space to be creative and fun, and passion and lust and adventure and freedom. Apparently, I have a bit of a pattern of feeling settled and then feeling antsy. antsy to let go of all of the things that are keeping me grounded and just break free. Until inevitably, I get resituated and reground myself in all of the things in my life, my daughter and partners and work and obligations until I feel antsy and want freedom, and wash and repeat over and over every couple of years. Before I throw everything to the side and just buy a one way ticket to Greece, which I have truly considered. I've decided to heed the advice of well, myself from 2021. It was as if I was speaking to my future self, giving me the roadmap for how to deal with this unease. And because I imagine that many of you may also be feeling the desire to throw down your coat and work emails and grocery list to the ground and proclaim your freedom and run towards the warmth of the sun. I thought that I would share this advice with you as well. So here it is. My conversation with Effy. My deep desire for roots and wings and my color coded bullet points for how to deal with my by annual restlessness. The conversation starts with me simply answering the question. How are you doing? Enjoy? I'm good. I'm good. Relationships are good. Work is good daughter's good. All the things are good. And and I'm feeling a little antsy.
Effy
Ah, everything is a little too good. I hear.
Jacqueline
sigh Yes, yes. I mean, okay, so what happens for me is sometimes when I'm all is well settled, then I start to feel confined. Almost like when I don't know if this happens to you when like if I'm in the library and it's too quiet. Then I just start to imagine like what would it be like to just start yelling or if I'm, if I'm in a meeting Everyone's being like Uber professional that I just like, visualize and daydream about, like standing on the table. And she was like cursing everyone out and just like, does your brain do that?
Effy
Yes, I tend to just want to disrupt the situations as well. But I team, my team, that part of my brain, but I totally get it right, exactly.
Jacqueline
No, I don't do those things. Right. But that is, that's the feeling that feeling when like things are too calm or settled, then I start to feel restless. And at some point, I wondered if this was like a method of self sabotage, if I was either intentionally or unintentionally disrupting things in order to cause trouble. But now I have a new theory.
Effy
Oh, do Tao I love theories. So
Jacqueline
Okay, have you ever been in bed with a partner and you're cozying up for the evening, and maybe you're like, you're gonna go to sleep and you're like intertwine your legs and one leg is through the other. And you just like, feel like cozy with each other and like comfortable. And then at some point you like, are like getting close to sleep. But you realize, you can't sleep like this, like you can't sleep with your legs or intertwined with each other. And so now you start to feel like, okay, I want to move like I want to rollover, and you start to think, well, I don't want to move my legs because they looks like they're comfortable sleeping, and I don't want to wake them up. And so you like sit in it for a little bit. But then the pressure starts like building inside of you and you're like, I need to move I need to get out. And then finally you're just like, boom, and you like get your leg out as quickly as you can and you roll over to like the cool side of the bed. And you're just like, Ah, that feels better. Does that make sense?
Effy
Yes, yes, yes, yes, I think the biggest difference is that for a very small person, you and I both small people, I revel in a king sized bed, so that I can have all the space in the world. And like maybe like when I like is like my toes touching. Like I like the toes touching. Like, because I don't period is great. And then listen, no hard feelings. Like, you know, we have a lot of bad. Let's find our own patches. And like, yeah, such toes like that is how I like to roll. But I totally understand that moment, when you are all tangled up. That actually does have to be the beginning of relationships. When you're like, Oh my God, I want to feel every interview skin on the air feels perfect.
Jacqueline
Like, this feels cozy and wonderful. And I just want to like fall asleep in your arms. But then actually, I don't want to sleep like this. Because a little while later, I just feel desperate to like, roll away. And then when I do I feel tremendous relief. That is what it feels like it is that like push and pull that desire for comfort and closeness. And then that desire for like, freedom and relief and excitement. And so that like literally that happened to me. And when it did it clicked. I was like, Oh, I'm not self sabotaging, like this is normal. This push pull of like closeness distance, closeness distance, like that's normal.
Effy
Totally. This makes me think of Freud's the hedgehog dilemma, which essentially a metaphor he uses for the struggle of the human and the human intimacy. It describes a situation in which a group of hedgehog seek to move closer to one another to share heat during a cold winter. But they must remain a part so they don't hurt each other with their sharp spines. And when I think about it makes me so sad. I think of these like, cue hedgehogs cold in the winter. All they want to do is get close, huddle up, be warm, but they can't they just can't get close, because they will hurt each other. Just makes me so sad. And when I hear that that's exactly what I think.
Jacqueline
Yeah, that that. That metaphor immediately, like people can't see specific people in my life games of mine where I'm like, Oh, you're a hedgehog. I understand now, but yeah, that's so that that's it that push and pull is what I felt. And actually, for years, I've had this motto, which I think really in this mantra that fits into this, which is roots and wings. And I've used this expression forever. Honestly, I would love to get a tattoo of it. I do not have any tattoos. I would love that to be the first so if anyone out there is a tattoo artist, and you would like to submit your designs to wings, I am accepting admissions. But I love that because it captures the two things that I'm craving, which are stability and freedom. You're here. So my default setting I think is stability. Like my default setting is like intertwine my legs. And eventually that desire though for freedom like breaks through and it takes shape. Like in all areas of my life. Right I could be I could suggest to my daughter, for example that we spend the day together that we play games that we do crafts that we watch movies, or just inspired by by desire to be close to her. But then she Two hours in, you're gonna find me in the bathroom. And I'm scrolling through social media, and listening to a podcast or writing a work email because I need a break from that closeness. Now, luckily, it turns out my daughter's the same way. So we've learned to bring to building connection breaks together. Because at one point or the other, we'll both like escape. But it's like that or at work, I will be seeking out as a consultant, like a long term project with a retainer, so that I can have stability in my schedule, stability in my bank account, however, a few months into the rhythm of zoom calls and daily emails, and then I start to daydream about walking away from all of it. And going back to multiple projects at a time, which, by the way, when I was doing that, I was longing for stability, my paycheck and in my calendar. And then, of course, you know, in my relationships, I think, actually, I think my relationships historically have taken the brunt of my desire for freedom. The worst thing that is the place where I have wreaked the most havoc
Effy
that totally resonates with me, I guess I almost am the opposite of that my default are wings. I think sometimes I find myself with gloriously large wings that helped me sort the highest of heights. And I think I'm you know, thriving and soaring. And then I realize I'm missing roots, like I don't know where to land. And when I do, I don't have it's not like a thriving stability. It's like inertia or dullness or boredom that even though I'm, you know, I might be landing and should be grounded. I'm not really grounded. It's kind of this temporary just landing pad. I'm sort of landed in a desert, it just needs like, take a breath, and then I, you know, take off again. And I think i mean i Right now I feel like I'm going through one of those one of those stages, I have nothing to anchor me. I make my own schedule, I can work from anywhere I could take on projects that really excite me and really nothing else. And you know, I'm soaring, I know that I'm going to be at some point, I'm gonna be like, Wait, hold on. Where do I land? Where am I roots? like, Where's where's my community? Where are my peeps? Who are my lovers? You know? So I get it, I get it.
Jacqueline
Yeah, you know, it's funny listening to you say that it makes me think of the expression that you say of how you are going places how you are everywhere. Am I saying that? Right? How you do anything is how you do everything? Yes, because if you have listened to our infidelity episodes, we have just literally described the way that we showed up in a situation where I was like bolting everything to the ground, and you were setting everything on fire and flying free. So yeah,
Effy
your hairy area
Jacqueline
was who this is, alright, so the trouble is, because I default to stability, that, you know, eventually my desire for rebellion has been disruptive for me and for those around me. So for example, in my relationship, I have kind of painted myself into a bit of a corner, in that I was in a steady relationship, right, I was married study after the infidelity stuff, like all good. And then I started to date other people with the desire to find adventure, just like stare, Pearl calls it like looking for waves to complement my anchor. And of course, in a very lesbian U haul kind of way, I jumped into another serious relationship. And so now I have two serious study partners, and I have no French love affairs, I have no adventure. I know who. And in the past when I was feeling antsy, I would feel inclined to hit the areas of my life like a tornado, like with everything around and honestly, and most commonly, I would have put the burden of that change that excitement that ventured those wings, onto my relationships. So seemingly out of nowhere, I would announce to my partner that we don't go out enough. And they don't say that I'm sexy enough. And we don't flirt enough. And we don't long for each other enough. And this was a pattern actually that my wife identified a few years ago because I was sharing with her that I felt like I was suffocating. And I needed to do something. And she was just listening kind of like, unaffected. And when I asked her I was like, aren't you curious? Are you concerned? Are you as riled up as I am? And she was like, No, you say the same thing about every two years. Not every time you make the same declaration and she's like, and I've just learned to like write out the tornado until it passes. That's
Effy
so funny. Yeah, yeah, that's so funny. You know, I hear you and I know you write and we've talked about this stuff so often. I can also tell you that you're not alone. Like I hear this. From so many people. I hear this
Jacqueline
tornado is landing all around the world.
Effy
Exactly. Tornado touchdowns know this comes up in relationships all the time. In fact, I would say this way of feeling is one of the sort of top reasons As people bring up opening up relationships, it seems like the answer like they they feel a certain way, do you think it's the relationship that's causing it? And they feel like the only way they can get away from it is to make a huge, courageous change. And of course, open relationships have been as part of the Zeitgeist recently, and everyone's talking about, it's now mainstream. So more and more people are like, you know why, you know, let's open a relationship. And I can tell you, it's really is not the answer. And we'll talk a little bit about that, that later on. But if you're feeling that way, there are many things you can do. Yes, you can explore an open relationship. My guess, my professional guess is that it's not really going to answer your calling or answer the what the fanciness what you call that? The answer is the feeling. It's not happening outside of you. It's happening inside of you.
Jacqueline
Yeah, I remember we did a live event a few years ago, I think this even was before I was a part of curious Fox, I think I was just a fox at that time. And I was sitting in the audience. And Dr. Ely chef was leading a workshop. And I think it was about the mono poly mismatch and like how to make those relationships work. And in that conversation, she shared this analogy that has stuck with me forever, she said, Imagine you are that you have a pool with a large crack in it, no matter how much water you pour into that pool, it will never remain full, because it's going to continue to leak through that that crack. And she's like, and so if you have something in you that is unresolved, as much love as you try to pour into yourself from as many people and that you have around you, that is going to continue just to like leak out until you heal that piece inside of you. And I think that's what I hear you saying is you can open up and have all of the people. But if that restlessness is inside of you, none of those people can solve that
Effy
for you. Absolutely, absolutely. And I find again, I've heard this, I've heard this pattern, different stories, and it's why I love my job, I get to hear all these different stories. And ultimately, I really end up noticing a handful of patterns that people are going through and I definitely there's roots and wings. I love that terminology that you've introduced me to happens. So often, I find that there are a few reasons why it happens actually, and this is my theory to add your theory, I have some I have a theory on why this happens. I think we slowly get disconnected from ourselves and spend more and more time in our doing minds rather than in our being minds. And more importantly, in our bodies. We are caught up in day to day we are caught up in other people's needs we got caught up in, you know, our story is, you know, just getting through today and we get disconnected. So we don't get a feedback loop of like it's getting warmer slowly. You know, it's just like we don't listen to it ourselves. We don't hear ourselves. We missed the signs that allow us to make small adjustments along the way rather than like maybe like stick out an arm out of the sheets and keep that cool. Navy have thinner sheets straight. make small adjustments. Don't wait to the last minute when you're like, Ah, I gotta deal with them off the bat. I'm like, I can't take you shoving them off the van. They're like, we're cuddling. You know, it's because you just like disconnected and you're not listening to yourself. You know?
Jacqueline
That's so true.
Effy
You raise one of the reasons also we bigger big picture stuff, right? We lose sight of our purpose or vision for our lives or intentions. We just get caught up in putting one foot in front of the other, which is great from getting ATB right, it's great. And we talked about this in the worst of days, you just put one foot in front of the other it gets to the end of the day, it will get you from A to B. However, if b is not where you want to be, then why are we putting one step in front of the other right we've lost purpose of what B is maybe we want to course correct and go towards C or or zen like but it's just that we lost sight of our purpose or vision all the beautiful things that keep us going towards thriving right rather than just doing doing doing I think that's another reason people find themselves like trapped in the way that you're describing.
Jacqueline
Yeah, that completely resonates cuz I think that's true I think that it will happen it's almost like your to your point like I get robotic I'm in the thing I'm doing the next thing and then something deep inside like maybe that that inner child that wants to play that part of myself that has always longed for some adventure and some freedom and frankly had that like squash out of me for the first you know few decades of my life like that part like reemergence and like burst through because that's the only way that they knew how to like, get my attention was just like start screaming. And to your point, I am sure that there were little things along the way that were little signs that I was ignoring until finally I just felt like I could not breathe and then boom, the tornado hit.
Effy
Yeah, absolutely nothing in your case, again, because I know you and I know how you show up in the world. Though I'm always open to you changing and evolving. Jacqueline, I think I know you. But I remain curious. My friend, I just want to tell you that about from what I know of you thus far, I also know how much of a an ethical life you need, right that you are, you know, responsible that you want to show up for everyone that you your commitments are important to you. And so you kind of get into a place of like, well, I have a schedule, I promised that I'm going to be with these people on these days. And these you want these days, I'm gonna coordinate these people and in your master coordinator of pretty much everything, your life, other people's lives, curious Fox, you know. And I think as a part of that master coordination, you assign yourself certain parts. And because you have integrity, and you are ethical, and you care about other people, and you're proud of your work, you show up, you show up, you show up. And I think sometimes not showing up is just you getting that from a TV that one foot in front of another, you know, and not giving yourself enough of a pause to to question like, actually, maybe we need to readjust some of that stuff, maybe I don't need to go back and forth in the same schedule, you know, that I might just have to tell people actually, I need to take some time, you know, I don't you might have might have had to like disrupt the pattern. And these things, I think maybe that also plays a part. I
Jacqueline
know that I and I also want to just take a breath and a break there because that is absolutely speaking to somebody right now who is listening to this, that you have systematically given pieces of yourself away just by showing up for people with integrity to your point, there are myself included the caregivers of the world that you know, I the other day, people often ask about how do I manage all of the things in my life, right? The four jobs, three houses, the two partners on the kid, and a lot of it is scheduling. And hey, are there two times of year where my regular schedule gets completely disrupted? That is over the summer, and that is through the holidays? So twice a year, I have to sit down for a several hour process where I look at where my daughter is going to be who's how she's going to be because Is she going to be in camp? Is she going to be traveling she's seeing her grandparent, whatever that looks like, where am I going to be? Am I going to be at the beach? Am I be here? Okay? Where am I gonna spend time with this partner with my wife with an eye it is just it's like, I have a piece of paper in front of me. And I'm just like moving little pieces around. It's a little boxes. And essentially what I'm doing is just giving away my time I'm here for work, I'm here for her, I'm here for him. So I'm for you. And I'm doing that willingly, right? These are things people that are important to me and things that are important to me. But when I look at that, it is exactly what you're describing of just like giving myself away to the point of being overly structured. And after a while that builds up resentment when you feel like you're giving more time or energy than the folks around you or will you have given all of your stuff away and there's nothing left at the end?
Effy
Yeah, absolutely. I can totally understand that. And I mean, I I observe it with you and other people in my life. I you know, it's not just you. And I know like you said there are listeners out there right now going oh my god, me too. And take comfort friends foxy followers that you are not alone. Jacqueline, is there right with you. Doing the same thing, you know, I think it is out of integrity is out of love. I think that it happens slowly. And you end up in a place where you're feeling resentful, like you said and disconnected and spread too thin. Totally happens.
Jacqueline
I think the other thing and Astaire Perell talks about this in her book meeting captivity, that when you have those things like rules and structure and systems, like that's not where the Dirty Sexy lives, right? Like the the like lustful, passionate, spontaneous. Oh, like the yummy does not live in the same place necessary as the comfortable and the predictable and the stable. And so it's hard when we as human beings are longing and craving for those things for both those things, and how they are almost absolutely opposed. Like, like magnets, opposite side magnets to each other and they just like repel each other away.
Effy
Yeah, I know. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, it's, I think it's a lifelong quest to find that balance to find that sweet spot. You know, when you actually it's funny you talk about magnets. I was playing with magnets earlier today as a part of a construction project random magnets are a great fidgeting toy. By the way, if anybody needs them, I'm definitely one of those people who need fidget toys. Magnets make a really good fidget toy because you can do that thing when you put the same size against each other. And they you make them push. And it feels like there was a sweet spot where they will just like keep steady, but it's so slim. It's so hard to find. You can just like totally spend hours trying to balance magnets, you know, and I think that is a good metaphor for trying to balance that that safety, stability and passion and variety. So furniture, talk about magnets, yeah. What else causes this, there are other things I think causes this. We are as humans are super adaptable creatures. That is why we live in all corners of this beautiful planet with so much different living conditions. We can do it. It's great for for the survival of our species. However, we sometimes adapt to our situations a bit too much we adapt to an extent that we stop questioning our status quo. We forget to challenge it. And I don't mean challenge it in a way that we challenge it in curious Fox was little aggressively, but really keep questioning keep keep being present. But like is my status quo still, what I want is, is this soul working for me and my thriving? And it's just that staying present with it, and adjusting it and course correcting or reveling in its beauty. And it's harmony, right? It's that being present piece that we kind of just adapted, and we're we're just you know, flowing and not in a good way.
Jacqueline
Yeah, yeah. It's so interesting that you say that yesterday. So yesterday was my wife's birthday. And we spent the morning at the beach, she spent the rest of the day there. But unfortunately, I had to head back to work, which was super annoying. But I had ridden my bike to the beach. So this way I could leave and she could still be there. And we live whatever houses across from a lake. And so at some point, I literally said out loud to myself, I am riding past a lake, from the beach, on my bike to my house, like I was going from point A to point B like I was trying to hustle to go take a shower and get ready for all my Zoom meetings for that afternoon. But I had to stop in that moment and say, Oh, my God, what is happening right now this is incredible. Like it really, even though I was moving towards structure, that moment and afternoon of calls, I did capture that moment of freedom. And that felt joyful,
Effy
beautiful, beautiful, I love that you're able to be like, let me just take one secondary present and enjoy what I have so important. So so important. I find another reason why people feel get to that trapped place and kind of feel like they have to unleash themselves from themselves that there is unresolved trauma, that continues to have an impact on their sense of safety and stability. And that no amount of safety or stability is enough. And they they don't deal with it. They don't know how to deal with it. And they double down on external factors that makes them feel safety and stability. And of course, we know that that kind of safety instability doesn't come from our external factors, it might vary a little bit, but eventually it's going to be ineffective. Going back to the pool analogy that we talked about that the more we seek safety and stability from the outside and we double down on that in relationships, the more we are going to move away from that balance that sweet spot of the of the of the magnets where there's going to be passion and excitement as well as safety and stability.
Jacqueline
Yeah, yeah, we should bookmark this and talk about this explore this in a future episode, because I think folks like you and myself and others who had some challenges in her childhood, and who became Uber aware of paying attention to people and paying attention to when there was calmness and the moments right before storm, that for me, at least when there is calmness, I am constantly paying attention to up this is not going to last something's gonna happen, right and like looking for those signs. And so yeah, we need to explore that more at some point.
Effy
We will I definitely have intentions of exploring more of trauma, and how it affects our relationships. In fact, we have an episode coming up, where we're going to be talking to the author of Polly secure Jessica Fern, where she actually talks about trauma and attachment in intersection of trauma and attachment and polyamory so that's gonna be really interesting.
Jacqueline
If you want to read the book before we do that episode so that you know what we're talking about that you can go onto our website at curious fox.com/reading list, and you'll find the book there
Effy
and so many more books that we recommend, so go and check it out. Last but absolutely not the least one of the main reasons why I think we feel we're trapped in a relationship or be trapped, we feel trapped in any situation is that we have lost sight of our boundaries, that we have abandoned ourselves and our own boundaries. And by the time we come around, we are in places where we don't want to be. And I think boundaries are so. So so, so important. And we'll again, we'll talk about it. We have talked about it in the podcast, and we will keep talking about this. I would say one of the, even though we mentioned this last, I would say one of the top reasons why people get there, it's because they've lost sight of their boundaries.
Jacqueline
Yeah, all of those things, check, check, check, check, check all of these things for me. Let me say I am at least older and wiser now with the tornado scars to prove it. And so when I'm feeling antsy, when I'm craving wings, I don't have to spiral out and stir up everything in my path.
Effy
Burn it all down.
Jacqueline
Exactly, yeah, that was true. I mean, I've learned and applied, I think, three strategies that have helped me name and act on the feeling without allowing it to, like, unravel all the important things in my life.
Effy
I love that you just like, look at it, and you're like, I'm going to extract three strategies. I'm going to name them and break them down. And so like, I'm gonna Jackie the out of these I love to share. I can't wait, tell me to shut up.
Jacqueline
I mean, if you're gonna go through pain, you got to then at least resulted in a list. I need a checklist.
Effy
Some kind of fancy bullet points? Yes. Why are we living on this?
Jacqueline
Point? Okay, well, the point number one is no unsee the first thing that I've learned is pay attention to my body. Mm hmm. And you mentioned this before, and it seems obvious because I'm in my body. But exactly, as you said before, I just like check out for my body. And now I can sense when I'm starting to get that claustrophobic feeling. I know that it is. It's a tightness in my chest. It's like this antsy feeling in my feet. And I like start to like clench and unclench my hands. I do these like, quick inhales and long exhales it's like
Effy
sighs Yes.
Jacqueline
And so in the past, when I felt that way, I would either label it as anxiety and like, ignore it, or I would intentionally write it out and be like, Okay, I'm feeling uncomfortable, but just like, push through, push through.
Effy
Yeah, I actually, it's funny, you should say that because we do pathologize that feeling we instead of, you know, the fact that you're saying you would label it in xiety? Exactly. We just pathologize it often get medication for it. But you're doing something completely different with it. You are actually learning from it.
Jacqueline
Yeah, well, it's funny because I saw a meme once it said, Whenever like, I go through something first. I'm like, Wait, is it the moons? Is it my period? Is it anxiety? Is it trauma, like there's a whole like checklist of what you'd be like, no, just this is how I feel right now. But yeah, so as soon as now I acknowledge it, and I feel it in my body as opposed to ignoring it, I may go for a run, or take a walk alone or go dancing in the living room, just something that like moves my body in a solo activity, so that I can address like that the physical sensation of the claustrophobia, without allowing that feeling to impact in my decisions and my behavior.
Effy
I love that. I love that. And it makes so much sense and it resonates with me. And I hope everyone listening is taking note because that connection with the body is so important. I've shared before I have a practice that I love called Five rhythms as a moving meditation practice. And I know when I don't do it, it's it looks like dancing. It's essentially dancing. It's just do you set an intention for it and you move through certain feelings through dance. And I know that when I don't do that for a while, I get disconnected. And I feel it in every area of my life. And that connection is so important. Some generalized tips for everyone. The three pillars I think of connecting to yourself and really getting down with your self care or movement, meditation, and journaling. You seem so basic, they seem so boring. Yeah, they are your basic basic pillars movement. Whatever movement feels good for you. Is it like like Jackie, are you a runner? Like me? Are you a dancer? Are you a gym rat? Do you love CrossFit? And if you do, who are you getting? No judgment? No,
Jacqueline
we're just in awe.
Effy
Yeah, it's your story. Is it yoga? Is it It trampolining. Is it silks, whatever is it find your movement, find a movement that speaks to you, and have it is a part of your life practicing meditation. I resisted meditation for such a long time, then I got sucked into it. And now I'm like, why aren't we teaching at school, which I think like schools are actually now teaching it to kids. All the things people say about meditation are true. Meditation is medicine, you don't The thing is that I think what people often that put me off is that I had this idea that I had to have this like, hippie woowoo, attitude towards meditation that I needed a meditation corner, that I was supposed to, like, look a certain way, feel a certain way, dress a certain way. None of those things that you the beginning, you just sit your ass down, and you watch your breathing. That is all it just seems so simple. You think like how can this be so effective, it is effective. So just sit your ass down, stop with five minutes and see if you can work up to 20 minutes. And then if you want to get to ninja level, 20 minutes twice a day, which again, why are you?
Jacqueline
Yeah, and you don't have to call it meditation because I do not call it meditation for that very same reason where I feel like now I have a special pillow and sit in a special way. And so instead, I have time when I'm just quiet. Or if time where I try to either quiet my mind or be fully present, like things that are intentional in that way. But I do not call it meditation.
Effy
Absolutely Call it whatever you want to call it sitting on my ass. But do the thing, sit down, close your eyes, or keep them open. Just watch your breathing. That's where you start really, really simple. And the third journaling that is probably the one I resist the most. Now, I have a I don't prescribe anything to anyone because you should live your own life and come up with your own ways. However I do. However, I do have a little exercise that if you can't get into journaling, because at a time for yourself five minutes, again is plenty. Get a your favorite notebook and pen, you start a timer or you just write you don't have to write anything particular you just write if for some reason the blank page scares you, or you don't know where to start, you can simply describe the air in the room, the temperature of the room, because in order to do that, you have to check in with your body. So you just re It's muggy and warm. And you can if you know that doesn't unplug you describe what you're feeling underneath your feet, and then just keep writing it will unblock you. And then once the timer goes off, you're done. That's how you start, you don't have to worry about grammar, you don't have to worry about words, you don't have to worry about your writing timer starts you right timer goes off, you stop writing. And that's you know, and a good time to do that is actually after you brush your teeth in the evening. And that's how you start a journaling. Practice my friends.
Jacqueline
Yeah, my partner does something like that, where she just writes whatever is coming through her mind as it's flowing through her mind that flows to her pen. I write I also do not call it journaling clearly. But I what I have started to do is you know, when you are frustrated or an argument, you're anxious or something, you're sad, and you have this dialogue in your head, you're arguing with someone in your head, you're telling them off, you're like describing to people what you're great, why you're sad, whatever. As opposed to just having that in my head. Now I write it in my phone, like in my notes, then I can step away from it and revisit that narrative and be like, Okay, that's a little much Jackie, like, exactly. And then I can go in and I can edit and I can edit and I can edit, but I can see then where my frustration is I can see and it helps me then when I finally do communicate, do so with less tone with less drama. But that has been super helpful. That's that's where my writing comes in.
Effy
Yes. And I know that writing is like, also medicine for you. And it is beautiful. And I'm obviously in all of your writing. I love your writing. I do also know that it is so hard for people. I don't know why I'm one of those people. Like if I feel like I can write I know my words, but it's just like just getting into practice of it. So don't be scared of writing. Don't be scared of sitting on your butt and watching your breath. And just moving in any way that calls you.
Jacqueline
Right, right because all those things. The first point of that is that it's a disruption. You're noticing, I'm starting to feel tight. I'm starting to feel claustrophobic. I'm starting to feel longing I'm starting to feel whatever that thing is, I'm not going to put a label on it and ignore it. I'm going to allow law myself to recognize this is what I'm feeling and I'm going to move or write or breathe or do something that allows me to get unstuck from this moment or to push it down because then that will have impact it will bubble up or it will leak out.
Effy
So by the way all these strategies all these tools and skills are good for everyone those who want more routes those who want more wings, those who when we were have too much of one and then the other. These all work is it is about how do you restore balance. How do you To restore and get ourselves in that sweet spot where we are thriving, not we are not craving more of the other thing or feeling overwhelmed by by one thing, ya know,
Jacqueline
which actually leads us to bullet number two. So the second thing that I learned is I have now gained a discipline of exploring what what areas of my life are calling out for attention. I think before either a making my poor partners pay the price, for my sudden longing for adventure, or be disrupting all the areas in my life and like turning over every table and dumping out every draw, and an attempt to find something that I have lost, I instead of those things now can take stock and pause and say, Okay, what are the important areas of my life? And how am i How am I experiencing and feeling those things, my wife and I, some years ago created this fuel gauge tool that I now use with my clients to figure out what areas of life need tending to So imagine you're in a car, and you know, your fuel gauge, and you can see how full or empty your gas tank is. And if you don't pay attention to it, at some point, you will run out of gas and you will be stalled. And in the same way, if we don't pay attention to the areas in our life that feel like there are gaps that feel empty, that don't feel full, that that will have consequences, we will feel stalled. And so literally, I created a document that has like these little fuel gauges in it, and I will, I'll link the tool in our show notes. And then you just write down under it like okay, relationships, work, my health, my spirituality, my parenting, whatever those things are. And then I'm thinking, Okay, how do I feel right now? In terms of health filled? Do I feel in my work right? Now? How filled do I feel in my relationships, how fill helpful do and if I feel full, that's where the measurement goes. And I'm like, wait, if I'm starting to feel empty, the more empty I am, then I note that too. And then I can pinpoint like, Oh, this is not a relationship problem. This is a word problem, like I don't feel validated at work. And so as a result of that, I am pressuring my partner's to, like pay attention to me, and to validate how amazing I am like, Oh, I see what I'm doing there. So I use this tool whenever I need to. And and then, you know, I've gotten to the discipline of doing it at least once a year with my wife, where we each do it and then we share the results with each other so that we know how to support each other and how to hold each other accountable. And just, it gives a place for conversation around those important areas.
Effy
I love that it's such a good tool, I know that we used a version of it for the relationship by design, no dice of parts. So it's a great tool. Also, I would recommend that could also just be a part of your journaling. If you just printed off the sheets, and every day, just as a part of your journaling, at the end of your journaling five minutes, just, you know, just mark the fuel gauge. Where am I today. And that I think is a really good way to like keep record as well, like day to day and see your overall patterns and see what correlations there are, you know, like, if your career is Do you find that when your career is really going well, that it's actually impacting everywhere else. Or then you kind of compartmentalize things, maybe we you know, there's so much insight and so much learning to be done with some structured reflection that Jackie is recommending, and the fuel gauges just it's just like a really practical, great, beautiful way to do that. So do it folks do it. And also, I think the important piece, which what you're talking about Jackie is the way that you approach it with your partner. So partners that we often talk about doing regular chickens, right. And often what is understood from that our state of the union, let's reflect on the relationships type of and let's figure out what's not going well, and let's fix it and learn from and all that kind of stuff. So very serious, very serious. And I think it's important that that is a practice. On top of that I think we've been really good with these and view we want to make the most of that time. I think also approaching them and coming with what's going on with you as an individual with what you're saying, like I do my fuel gauge. My partner, my wife does her fuel gauge when we come together and we tell each other as individuals, what's going on with us. That isn't anything to do with the relationship that isn't anything to do with each other. But you Jackie what's going on what's the latest where all the areas of your life happening in that you individuate that you really sort of show up for yourself and talk about yourself and hold space for your wife do the same. So important because this will help ease the enmeshment right which most of us end up getting enmeshed with our partners. It's just how humans are made. But having these times where you are seeing them as individuals with what's going on with their life that has nothing to do with you. You will also realize that they are not the source of your woes or your or your joy or you know that They are their own person doing their own thing dealing with their own shit and reveling their own joy. And hopefully you are collaborating on life on the areas that make sense to you. So add this individual input to your state of the union conversations. And please, please, please, make room leave room for celebration of what's going right. And leave room for hopes and dreams. Yeah, that's where the wings are. That's where you don't get close to phobic that you align your vision with your partner that you don't feel like you don't get claustrophobic. You don't get myopic, you don't only think about what to change, and how to make things better that you celebrate. And you dream. Those are also super, super important.
Jacqueline
Yeah, no, I think that's completely true. And I, you know, those conversations has also surprised me, because there are times that she'll share something. And I'm like, yeah, that's how you're feeling interesting, or like I thought used to feel this way. Oh, you don't anymore. You've changed.
Effy
Yeah, that's so good. It's you clear what I call clear cache as well. Like you clear guys, people changing revol people get a new perspective on things or paradigm shift life, you know, life changes you and approaching in that way will allow you to clear that cache that you don't just like, go back to the version of themselves that you cashed in your head and, and get bored by that person. You know, I maintain that when we're getting bored by our partners is because we stop seeing them. We just like refer back to a static image that we hold in our heads.
Jacqueline
Yes, yes. One of my hacks for that is I will ask questions about life before me. So I'll say tell me about your ex partner and their tell me about when you came out. Tell me about when you're going to school, tell me about your favorite party that you want to tell me something that is life before me so that I like get this window into a person that I don't know. And then that re engages my curiosity and that spark? Yeah, love
Effy
that. Love that what I'm hearing you say Jackie is Be curious. No. Be the answer to all these things. Very curious friends.
Jacqueline
Yeah. So bullet number three, was, I learned that instead of the tornado and the deep desire to like, stir up everything. Now I can just introduce little bits of change into the areas of my life, almost like if you're turning up the volume slowly until you get to the right decimal like that, as opposed to just like boom and turning it on. I like no gradual, gradual, gradual, and like okay, that's good. That feels good. Right there. I'm gonna stop right there. Yeah,
Effy
I love that. I love it. And the thing is, you can really only do that if you getting the first two, right, I reckon. Because you're not going to be able to have that analog control over volume, if you're not connected to yourself. And if you're not, if you don't have a discipline of attending to the areas of your life being being being intentionally attentive to the areas of your life, once you master those, now you have that beautiful analog dial that you can control. Now you can experiment with that you can do it slowly, rather than like whacking something on and then like, too much and there's like pulling the plug or just just you know, doing exactly, and I love that you nailed one and two and then three is freedom, you know, then you get to you get to choose the areas of your life that you want to change and shift and experiment with and, and grow into. So get to be the beanstalk.
Jacqueline
Yes, yes. The Beanstalk? Yes. For folks who haven't heard we have been I've talked about change and how we used to see I used to see change like a lobster. Or you would a lobster fits itself between two rocks. And when it when it feels like it is about to grow out of its shell, and it literally quacks itself open quacks open its shell, and like its gooey, internists, like cools away and like hides beneath a rock in order until their new exoskeleton forms. And that's how I saw change was like, I start to feel too tight. And then I have to crack myself open and my vulnerable gushy Ness comes out and I have to like protect it until I harden up again. That was exactly how I defined change in my life.
Effy
Yes, and I so the poetic version of the Phoenix that rises up and at some point bursts into flames and then and then rises a new from the ashes. And that was my version of change that I was I was this big, glorious, beautiful creature that you know what it was time when would I when things didn't work out that I would just set myself a light and it felt great. It felt courageous. It felt like I was doing something literally wonderful is like full of wonder. And then I would you know, and then like, I would just be like, and there'll be ashes and I would just, I would just, like, shake things off. And here I am. You know, it's just sounds. So like when you sit when you talk about like this, like, initially, you're like, Wow, what a story is amazing. The field such as you look back, they are so violent. so hard on yourself, like, crack your shell open, and you have to hide under a rock because it feels so scary. You're setting yourself on fire.
Jacqueline
And, okay, can I notice now I'm seeing these observations everywhere. My analogy is at the sea floor, and your analogy is up flying in the air. Because I like roots in your
Effy
area. Yes, and those are our old selves. And we have evolved from that. And I'm sure our regular listeners will hear the story of when I reached out to Jackie I was covered in soil, and I just been gardening, I had just moved to the Mediterranean coast of the Mediterranean living in these Mandarin groves. And I was like planting things and growing things. And I had this like revelation. And I was like, I have to tell Jackie, that plants also change, and they grow and they expand and they change and they thrive. And they do it peacefully, in harmony with nature, without any without any layers or cracking yourself open, I planted some beanstalks I planted some beanstalks and I was watching them beanstalk grow really fast, by the way, I really recommend they're very satisfying. And the thing with the beanstalk is that you plant them, and then you put a supporting structure near them, right you put you can actually do crazy things like you can plant them with a sunflower which goes tall, and it kind of will wrap itself around the very, very cool thing about being soaked that it will it has roots and it wants to be in the sky it will with as long as he has roots and it gets nourished from the roots, it will grow it wants to be in the sky, you put some support algae, right and you put some support near it and it will grow as far as you nourish it and you give it support and it will rise and rise and rise as far as the support. I was like, that is how you grow. That is how you manage a change. Friends be the beanstalk? Yes,
Jacqueline
yes. So that is it. Right. So I used to crack myself open I used to tornado the hell out of everything, any violent analogy that you can think of that kind of thing I was doing. And then yeah, now I tried to use the volume, right, just like little iced and I talked about this in my change management work, just small acts of bravery. To start to get some movement is often what you need just little things that you're like, Okay, I'm gonna try this thing. I'm gonna try this thing. You know, specifically, for example, I am going to slowly start working on some crafting or path projects that I've been wanting to do. Because it's like a little bit of change that I can do in my work. I am riding my bike no more. So I could feel the wind in my face. And like literally feel freedom, my partner and I have started to spontaneously go out for like a drink and some calamari at this like restaurant that's near us, which is amazing. And so we do that every now and then like that feels like a little adventure. My wife and I have committed to going on one like New York City kind of adventure every month and exploring. We both grew up in New York, but exploring some part in New York that we haven't seen before. I'm saying yes now to my daughter when she invites me to dance in the rain and suggest like, what are some little things that I can say yes to and do that start to just raise the volume in different areas of my life without dramatic change.
Effy
And in addition to Jackie's beautifully structured, and very, very valuable tips, just a few other ones to consider. Obviously you need to figure out what works for you connecting with community. That is so important. If you feel like you're trapped. If you're feeling that you're untethered, I whatever, whatever way you're swinging too hard, connect with community, find people that are like minded that you feel in synergy with and connect. And sometimes you feel you need to make a change, but you actually just need to connect more. So go out and do that friends. And last but not least, this is not very popular, but happens to be one of my favorite perspective, reset buttons, volunteer. Sometimes we get too myopic with our own stuff, right? And that would be even if even if you're working on ourselves, you know, we're doing all the things were journaling or meditating. It's a lot of work on ourselves. And I feel like we can get myopic we can get stuck in our older stuff. And I feel like volunteering, just doing something that has nothing to do with you volunteering, even for a few hours a month provides an incredible opportunity to get involved with something that is bigger than you. And is often nothing to do with you. And that can really just help you reset things just get you a new perspective. Yeah, it's, you know, it's not popular, it's not something that everybody feels that they can do. But honestly, just give it a go. You'll be surprised. You'll be surprised.
Jacqueline
I started volunteering for curious Fox. Yes. And
honestly, it was I was in a tough place. And I wanted some, like, I was looking for something and curious Fox had community and then I started to volunteer, and then I found, you know, more of my calling, and so yes, totally loving.
Effy
Yeah, I've definitely volunteered and got me out of some very down down periods in my life, when I moved to New York is one of the first things I did is start volunteering, because I was like in a new city. And sometimes you just need to make a big change. Sometimes you just do, and that is okay. And it will be okay. If you're going through a big change like that, you should just reach out to Jacqueline or follow her on Instagram, because that's what she does for a living. You want to deal with change, you deal with Jacqueline?
Jacqueline
Well, that I mean, it's funny, because it's true in that I have been so resistant to change for so much of my life. That of course the things that make me uncomfortable, I leaned heavily into, I research the hell out of it, I focus on it. It's like, you know, when you have a sore in your mouth, and your tongue keeps pressing. That is how I that is how I built my career. So yeah, yeah, that is exactly right. Most of the work that I do is focused on that big change, I think that my great wish for all of us is that we can navigate through change, and that we can find synergy between our roots and wings in a way that allows us to thrive. And we've curious, do you crave either routes or wing was? Have you found the right magnetic balance? Do you prefer your legs intertwined? Or do you want to lay untouched side of the bed? We would love for you to jump into the curious Fox Facebook group and tell us how do you find your roots and wings? Will you currently craving more of any resources that you have had lessons that you have had questions that you have had? The curious Fox Facebook group is where we go to talk about the podcast. And so go and talk about your experience, roots and wings. Were curious. And if you've enjoyed this podcast, then right now, in this moment, go into the little app, whatever you're listening to and press subscribe if you aren't Apple podcast, or follow on Spotify or Stitcher and if you've done that already. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. so appreciative, we're gonna have one more thing, it's only gonna take you one more second, just go to the place where their stars are, where there's ratings and just rate, the higher the better. But you you know, choose your own adventure. And while you're there, if you see the little arrow and you want to share it with somebody else, that's also cool. We're not going to be mad at that. So you know, subscribe, rate, share, all of that stuff really does help us to be able to change the noise and challenge the status quo. And if you like what you heard, and you're like, I love that and I want you to explore this thing or want you to hear my story or I have a question, then there's so many ways for you to get in touch with us you can either email us at listening at we are curious foxes.com You can send us a voice memo to that same email address. If it is summer where you are and it is hot, and you want to go outside looks beautiful, but it just is so humid and you want to stay in the comfort of your cozy air conditioner. I have an activity for you to do. Go on to our Patreon. And we have over 50 trainings, and workshops and vent videos and all of our podcast bonus content and interview content. All of it is there you can go binge on some videos, binge on some podcast extras and support us on Patreon in the process. It's a win win. And then lastly, if you want to learn more about us effete myself curious Fox, you can find us on Instagram. We're hanging out on Instagram all the time. I'm always there Jacqueline Miss La fe is at coach Effy Blue and of course, finds us on Instagram at we are curious foxes.
Effy
This episode is produced and edited by Nina Pollack, who Grounds this podcast which in turn allows us to soar. Our intro music is composed by Dave so we are so grateful for that work. And we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind. And we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious and curious. Curious. Thank you Stay curious Stay curious
Still Curios?
