Ep 129: Attraction vs. Activation: Questioning Love at First Sight
Art by @claireboecousins
How does our upbringing and early childhood experiences affect our mate selection? Do we need to be “healed” to find a healthy relationship? Can the relationships we struggle in the most be places where we can heal and grow? Can trauma be a bonding experience and how is “trauma bonding” different?
Effy and Jacqueline explore the love-at-first-sight myth and try to parse apart the difference between attachment wound activation and attraction (and even arousal) - which can all feel confusingly similar to the nervous system when we meet a potential new partner if there’s unaddressed trauma. They discuss what it takes to nurture a relationship where there’s space held for mutual healing.
The TikTok that started this discussion can be found here. You can find a curated playlist of videos while researching this topic here.
To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla
on Instagram.
If you have a question that you would like to explore on the show, reach out to us and we may answer your question on one of our upcoming episodes. Leave us a voicemail at 646-450-9079 or email us at listening@wearecuriousfoxes.com
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TRANSCRIPT:
Effy
Welcome to the Curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.
Jacqueline
And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And this week, we're talking about how we can tell the difference between attraction and activation. We all know what it feels like to lock eyes and feel immediately connected with someone like we've known them all of our lives falling in love fast, but can that be real sustainable love?
Effy
Can it?
Jacqueline
my question was like a real question. Yours feels like sarcastic like can it be? Let me tell you how this started. So I sent you a tic toc from a patty not
Effy
the Pawnee feel intense chemistry where there's often the person your brain selected to recreate your trauma. Can I get a break for like a fucking minute? Like, just one minute,
Jacqueline
give me a break. So that resonated completely. We can't have passion. We can't have like lust. We can't have attraction. It's all trauma like can't Can we just can we please have something? Can we have something shall be loved of everything?
Effy
Yes. No, I know, you send me these tiktoks I love that. Because I am resisting 100% Tiktok just resisting it. I'm allowed. I don't want to download it. I don't want to I just I just fall in so many rabbit holes. I don't need another rabbit hole just waiting for me to trip into and lose hours and hours. Instead, you very kindly send me the best of Tic Toc, which I appreciate. I appreciate that. And one of those things was this thing. And when I when I when I got it, I listened to it. And I was like, Oh, this is right up Jackie's alley.
Jacqueline
You know why? Because I do not like the idea that I have to choose between a passionate relationship and a healthy one. We just did Episode 126, which was rest and reason and flirt and fuck. And we talked about the ability to have both stability and eroticism, just not at the same time. For me, I think personally, it stands out because my I have two mottos in life. One is and not or, and the other is roots and wings. And so both of those things make it really difficult for me to believe that I cannot have both the like lust and connection and all the things that people were saying come with trauma, or come from trauma, and like stability and healthy and trust. Like I want it all.
Effy
I think the idea is not that you can't have it all. I think you can have it all one not at the same time. And to with some caution, and mindfulness. And, you know, thought and consideration and awareness. So I think yes, you can have it all. Just not as simple as you imagine.
Jacqueline
Okay, yes, I think this is actually what the issue for me is I can have it all I'm gonna have, I'm gonna do all the things that I want. So let's let's make that clear. That is true. What I'm annoyed with is people calling that trauma bonding, or like labeling and if something is bad, or like, like my relationship now is going to be destructive because of of all of those things. And so I don't know is well first of all, is trauma bonding a bad thing?
Effy
Yes. Trauma bonding is a bad name. However, let me explain. It is very rarely that I label things like it is bad. But trauma bonding is bad. But what you're talking about is not trauma, bonding. I think trauma bonding, the phrase gets thrown around and it's misunderstood and misused. So this is actually a really good moment to clarify some of that and introduce some accurate language so that people you know, we educate people a little bit and we're accurate in what we're talking about. Trauma bonding. is when the person who's been traumatized. Establish the bond with the person that traumatizing them. Right? So the most familiar trauma bonding that we know is Stockholm Syndrome, right? That's when captives refused to leave their capitals, even after hostage negotiation is done, right, or people falling in love with their abusers. Right. So that is what trauma bonding is, is when you are bonding with the person that is traumatizing you, right. And that is not a good thing. There's no version of that that is okay, or good. What you're describing, though, is not trauma bonding, what you're describing is attachment activation, which has something to do with childhood trauma, but it is not the trauma that you're experiencing right now, from somebody that you're bonding this. Is that clear?
Jacqueline
Yes, that makes sense to me. Okay. So I appreciate that. And actually, we did, we've we've done deep dives into attachment we've we spoke with in Episode 80. We spoke with Jessica Fern, about her book, and we talked about attachment styles and trauma and non monogamy. And so I'm familiar with all of the attachment and we all want to move towards secure attachment. That's the goal. That makes sense to me. But is attachment activation, a bad thing? Relationship? Again, I'm just I'm not convinced. Because Can we can we do storytime? Okay, so sit back, everyone, let's tell some stories. So I'm going to tell you about the probably insecure and activated attachment that I had with both my relationships and why I don't think it's so Alright, let me start with my partner. So we met on OkCupid. And we connected and immediately and it was like flirty, and fun and interesting. And so we decided we would have meet a few weeks out at a bar, it was actually at a poly event in Brooklyn. And so I got there early, I'm sitting in the back, and then she walks in. And it was just like a movie. Like I can float to her it feels like it feels like my legs weren't even moving. And like everybody, the noise and the people like faded away. And we're just like looking at each other. And I don't even remember if we said anything, maybe we said like Hello. But then we just like kissed. And it was like, she's like fireworks and lightning and all the things. And then we spent the rest of the night like talking and everybody like left and we almost left at closing. It was just like that kind of magical experience. And then the next time I saw her, like our second date essentially was at her house because she had the flu. So a few days after we met each other, she had the flu, I sent her a bag of groceries and goodies. And then I started to go to her house and like take care of her as she had the flu. And so for the first maybe two months, we spent the whole time in her house, we said I love you after like three weeks, like we didn't go out to like dinner, like at a proper date, probably until two or three months into our relationship. And we were like that was it like we were we were together. But it felt it just felt so familiar. It felt so I don't know, it felt like I knew her forever. And so it just accelerated our connection.
Effy
Right? So that is the magical piece, right? We hear these stories, we hear these lines, like oh, when we met it felt like we've known each other all our lives, or we must have been lovers in as in a previous life, or we're like twin flames and not the universe, say, this idea that you've known this person you've just met, like your whole life that your souls are intertwined through, you know, space time, and you know, whatever, right? So this idea is also like hyper romanticized and affirmed by art and media, right? We think that's what love is. The point is, if you have just met somebody, and it feels like you've known them all their lives, it's because they're activating a part of you that's been around all your life, they're activating a pattern, and attachment wound, something that has been with you all your life, it is not who they are, that feels familiar, but it is the thing that's activating inside of you is what is familiar. So when you feel like that about somebody at first sight, that is your cue your clue your prompt to search within and to see, are you regulated, like can you regulate yourself, and then really check in with connection again, so the chances aren't, because you recognize or you've decided this person is somebody that you've known all your life, there is immediately after that there is this illusion of trust, right? Even though you met them five minutes, like there's a part of you that's we've known each other forever. So there's immediate, stepping into this illusion of trust, which means that you're probably putting your boundaries down too soon to me boundaries going down too soon. And there's availability for connection, too much connection too soon too quickly, right? Because you're operating under the illusion of that you've known each other forever. Often when that happens is accompanied by this, like passionate goes down on chemistry, sex, because you are operating from this idea of like trust and familiarity. So you're, like, willing to be seen and willing to be heard and like, like, pour your heart out, and like, express yourself sexually because you think you know this person and you trust this person. And unfortunately, unfortunately, the sex is good. But the reason it's good, it's because it's based on an illusion, which is like such a sucky thing to say. I feel like a killjoy. But that's kind of what's happening.
Jacqueline
But it's a beautiful illusion. It's true. First of all, as soon as she got better, we spent the next three days in bed. I don't think we like ordered in. And just it was like, yeah, it was it was it was pretty, it was pretty good. But what
Effy
do you know what that reminds me of? There's a scene as a quick scene in The Matrix where somebody's talking about letting the machines plug them back into the Indian matrix, because life is just better within the matrix, right? So they even though they've been like they've been freed from the matrix, but they're in this like sucky life, even though they're like free, but they're eating like mush. And then they allow themselves to be plugged back into the matrix. And they're like, but the steak tastes so good.
Jacqueline
Okay, but it's true. But let me let me see this. All right, I am I have a master's degree in social work, I have been engaged in this work for a long time I have been in therapy for like I knew at the time, and certainly looking back that there were some things that potentially were not healthy there that it was, there were some attachment stuff going on. So I know that that was there, right? We come from a similar culture, we both have had issues with our parents growing up in kind of similar ways. She reminds me of my dad, in a lot of ways, you know, and even when we were arguing, I mean, I know that we immediately kind of step into our childhood selves and are like two kids fighting. And we've worked through that. But through a lot of time, and, and therapy, and commitment, we have created something that feels really stable and healthy. And we're going to be celebrating our four year anniversary, soon enough. And so let me also point out that that's probably possible, too, because it's an open relationship. And we only live together part of the time, so we don't get together long enough to annoy each other.
Effy
So it's actually two years.
Jacqueline
Exactly. where yours is two years. And I understand it. I mean, in some of our worst arguments early in our relationship, it really replicated the anger and aggression that I experienced from my father as a child. So I see it, but I also think that we have worked through it and are healing as a result of those triggers. Okay, I'm gonna give you another example. Another storytime. So my wife, my wife and I, we met we had an unconventional start, we, you know, didn't include infidelity and secrets and power dynamics. But we persisted nonetheless, as as who we are as people, we persist. And at some point, we were talking and we realized that she all her life had a narrative that was I will disappoint people. She had cheated on all her partners before she realized that she was polyamorous. She, I think felt like she disappointed her parents when she came out as a as a young adult. And so she kept thinking to herself, I'm going to disappoint people. And the narrative that I had was, people were always going to disappoint me. I felt really left down by my parents and my former partners, I always felt kind of as a child and growing up that I had to be the responsible one. So I was always looking out for disappointment. And then I found it. Right, so weeks before we were gonna get married, I found out that my wife was in love with someone else.
Effy
Remember those days?
Jacqueline
Yes, exactly. That was not needed. If you want to hear more about that story. It's episode 63, unpacking infidelity and surviving the earthquake. So we had we had some stuff and it was pretty hard. But we also worked through it right? Relationship Coaching individual therapy, workshops, books, conversations, and we are going to be celebrating a decade together soon and we fully trust each other. But I also understand that in some of our worst arguments, it replicated the emotional distance and avoidance that I experienced from my mother as a child. And so essentially, it partnered with my dad and married my mom. So that's awesome.
Effy
Right is raising the roof in his coffin right now. That means like I told you all this is what will happen.
Jacqueline
But my point is that regardless of The fact that there was definitely insecure attachment stuff happening, there are definitely things that were like pulling up my triggers and trauma from from childhood. I learned through that and learned with them, and we all are better for it and our relationships are stronger for it. So I don't know, I don't know, maybe it's a bad thing. I'm not gonna,
Effy
I'm not gonna quite yet. I don't necessarily. So some things I think, I want to label as bad because some things are objectively bad, like trauma, bonding is bad. Like, if that's what you're experiencing, you are in an abusive relationship, right? You shouldn't be out of that relationship. So trauma bonding that what you just described, which is people who have gotten together through attachment activation, who then sort of come to some sort of an awareness and decide to stick with it and grow and get healthy, and reassess those connections and reinforce them, and sort of level up together. That's a healthy way of doing that. And as healthy way of doing that. So I don't necessarily think that attachment activation is always bad. I do think that it requires people to go through what you've gone through, gone through, and I don't think everybody is able to do that or is available for them, right. So I don't necessarily want to label getting together with people who activate your attachment is a bad thing. I think it is a thing, it is a real thing. It happens to all of us, we need to be super aware of it, and learn strategies and tactics in skills and build communities and support networks so that we can work through those struggles, and find our way to a securely attached a nourishing relationship. I think that's the part that is important.
Jacqueline
I agree with all those things. I agree. And I think that that has made a difference, our commitment both to our own personal growth and the growth of our partnership. And in both cases, I think what is interesting to me is so with me it was these are long term relationships. Like I figured these things out. Once I was in it. I'm like, in love in the thing and like, Oh, shit. This is replicating what happened when I was 10. Like, that's not cool. So like that happened. But I know that if I I don't know, let me see this. I don't know that if I was knew this beforehand, if it would have impacted who I was attracted to. I think certainly I still would be attracted to the same kind of people. But I don't know if I would have stopped myself. I don't know if I would have been attracted and been like, oh, well, I can't do this, because you're gonna bring up my childhood trauma. And so I need to move on. I don't think I would do that. I don't know why I had a voice. Why that? Why that version? Like a 1920s. Like, boys, but I just think that I would keep being in those relationships.
Effy
Yeah, the chances are that you are you will be right. I think I think that that is that is a thing like we do. We are so heavily influenced by our attachment styles, which are shaped in our childhood, more often than not with our primary caregivers, which more often than as mom and dad. Right. So I think it's inevitable that within our attachment system, within what what we feel is a secure, loving relationship, we see the echoes of those, like what I call the original relationship, right, the original loving relationship, which is our relationship with our parents. So yeah, we are all going to get echoes of that there is no other. There's no other version of this right. And I think there is a difference between activation and attraction. I think, you know, when I hear your story with Alexis, it sounds like if I put on my professional ears, if I was, you know, hearing that as as a coach, I'd be like, Oh, that's an activation. That's not necessarily an attraction. But it feels like attraction, right? That nuance is very hard to parse apart. Because once you're activated, you're activated, you're not in your wise mind. So you're not stopping in thinking like, oh, look, I'm activating. Like, you'd have to do a ton of work to be able to be like, Oh, look, I am activated. I wonder what's causing that Oh, it's this person. What is in this person in this connection right now that's activate like, you'd have to be like some emotional mental health ninja with you know, years of experience and training and probably like solid 20 minutes twice a day meditation practice to be able to like catch yourself in those moments. So I think we will always be attracted to people who activate our attachment essentially. And I've seen this in my experience which are different from yours, right? I have taken this whole I don't want to be attracted to my childhood dynamics to a next level. It was one of the reasons why I wanted to try out monogamy I wanted to try out non monogamy I was like how can I disrupt this pattern in such a way that I that there won't be room for repetition right there won't be room for the echoes like so I was like non monogamy is like the opposite of monogamy, which is what my parents had. So if I like disrupted on a systemic level, nevermind, like let's go out of my comfort zone and date like people that I would need, let's go deeper than that let's disrupt this thing on a systemic level, let's just like do non monogamy right? Even then I found myself in these like crazy ass dynamics with a partner that is like, so reminiscent of my dad and how he shows up in relationship and a metaphor that is so reminiscent of my mom and the way that she shows up in relationship, even though I'm not in a relationship with them. It's more like the three way dynamic, not a triad, but the dynamic of the three of us ended up being repetition of my family home, and I'm like, What the fuck? Like, I'm trying to interrupt. I'm trying to interrupt this on such a cool, like such a core level, I'm still unable to do that. Right. So I just this is so
I am aware that I told you, I shared a story with you the other day I was at a bar. And I like in a single I locked eyes with this with this guy, and immediately got activated. I know now when activation is like I can tell the difference. I knew immediately that I was activated, and I knew that there was something in him that was activating me before I even spoke to him before. They just locked eyes. And I felt myself pulled towards him knowing I know this feeling. I know when this feeling comes up. Nothing good happens from here, right? That's the conclusion that I've come from myself. It might not be. But you know, I'm like, okay, but this is, you know, this is like, I'm familiar. And like you even though I was familiar, I felt myself pulled into this, like getting curious and wanting to explore. It's like, you know, I'll just like dip my toe in? Well, you know, I'll just have a conversation. I just want to find out if I'm right, like, that's the other thing that I come up with, like I get the feeling and I'm like, but is it accurate? Or am I just making it up? So let me investigate is an amazing trick that I play on myself to them, like go towards the thing that I'm not supposed to be going towards. And lo and behold, like this guy turned out to be essentially married and having an affair, or would be open to having an affair, but really wanting to be non monogamous, but didn't have the courage to say like it was a whole mess. And I'm like, oh, yeah, that's kind of that's exactly the kind of mess that I would like, I would find myself in in the past. Like, before I've done the work. I'm like, Oh, look at this feeling this alarm is still like, fully accurate. Obviously. I just like we had conversation. And you know, and I was like, I need to exit I and I and I did exit. And I didn't do anything. But I imagined it is like it's the closest thing to I can imagine that feels like an addiction. Like it's like, it's like an alcoholic that's going into a bar and able to like turn around and walk out like they do it. But the efforts and the experience of that. Right, the fact that they still could walk out of the thing. Yeah, I imagine that that feeling is accustomed to that feeling. Like, I went there, I got vaccinated, I connected and then I like okay, this is not gonna be good for me. I turned around and walked out.
Jacqueline
Yeah, I wasn't saying you had to be really strong to do that. Because I remember you telling me afterwards and you were like, you know, I was I felt connected. I was turned on like, This person was interesting. Like all the things like I wanted to be in that space. But you had the courage. Yeah, Lou? And yeah, no, I shall, yeah, should walk out of this place.
Effy
For me, it was actually next level, it wasn't even attraction, it was arousal. So I get confused, like my inner systems get confused between attachment activation and arousal. So that I think is like next level of attraction, there's still some, I think there's some spaciousness around the attraction, right? Like, our narratives around attraction don't necessarily include an immediate resolution, right? Attraction is like what we're fed and attraction is something that you explore something you take 10 time in, it's something that you like, there's gentleness to attraction, right? What I experience is activation that feels like a arousal that is now demanding an immediate resolution. So in my case, I was very much like, Yep, I would have totally fucked that guy. You know, and under other circumstances, in another live, I would be like, Yep, let's go to your room. It was a hotel bar, right? Like, yeah, let's go to room. That's what would have happened. Right? So I feel like I had to be extra careful, especially if I get that feeling that then goes into arousal.
Jacqueline
Yeah, I mean, so what I am confused about is we are built to survive, right? Built to be healthy and to procreate and all the things. Why then is it so that we all find ourselves or at least most of us find ourselves attracted to people who are probably not good for us? We know that we do it, but why are we doing it?
Effy
Yeah, it sucks, right? It's this like a really smart way of survival that is built into our species is essentially what what attachment style is, right? So let me do the very brief explanation of why attachment happens. And it's because the human infant is born 100% dependent with zero boundaries, that is just the human species we came in, we come into this world 100% percent dependent on somebody with zero boundaries, right? We need to be fed, cleaned, taken care of loved nourish for over a long time, right, those of you who have kids, you know, this three, four years at least right before you can turn your back on your child for more than more than a second. So that is how we that's how we come into the world. And the thing that makes us survive, knowing that we would have to depend on somebody, the thing that makes the person that we're dependent on take care of us is love, and love that is not necessarily of Valentine's Day and roses and chocolate. But love there is actually somewhat evolutionary like the sort of the more bigger, more comprehensive love, right. And that love is the same love that stops a mother from throwing the baby out of the window at three 3am in the morning, for the 20th night in a row while she's awake, and she's can't get the baby to settle or feed, right. It is that love that evolutionary love that makes us stick it out. Right. And that is where the survival piece comes in. It is survival of the species, it's that generic, it's like this, the survival of the species is so much bigger than us, it's so much bigger than that moment, right. And that stuff is built in. It's like hardwired through millions of years of evolution, that we come out knowing were dependent, we come out knowing that we must be taken care of. And the thing that enables that is this idea of love. So we have an idea and a feeling of love that we experience. And then that love then needs to be presented. Like we need to know what that love looks like and feels like and how we reciprocate how we show it. And that that idea of what love looks like gets written in that first what I call the original relationship, right? So the original loving relationship is the one that we have with our primary caregivers. And that's where we learn what love looks and feels like, right, we have a reference to it internally. But then it needs to become real out in the world that we can recognize it. So that initial prototype for love or relationship is built in the home. And whatever is built into that is what we recognize as love, right? In an ideal world. We are have parents that are loving and compassionate and gentle and wise and they give us space when we need it. And they're attuned to our needs. They come to us when we call them. They are gentle guardians, they let us be who we are an accept every piece of us while they remain loving, caring and considerate, right, that is the ideal situation. And if that's the case, if you're that lucky, you are very lucky. That is what love looks like. That is what you've experienced. Right? So in your model for love. That is what you see, the rest of us who didn't grow up in magic land, right, are born to parents that are human and struggling. And maybe, you know, they were harsh on us, and they were hypercritical, because they felt like they wanted the best for us and their expression of that was driving us and you know being all about grades or, or being ahead of the curve and all that kind of stuff. Right? So now, your model for love has criticism built into it. So when you see criticism out in the world, you associate that with being in a loving relationship, right? So now when you meet somebody who's being critical about what you're wearing, right, somewhere in your inside your brain, the piece of code that says, oh, that's what loving people do. That's when you love somebody, you criticize them because that's what was in the original, the original model for love, right? Or you have a parent that is absent, right? They don't ever get angry, but they check out or they you know, they're always coming home late, or they're just not there for you right now. You think absence is what love looks like, right? And now you meet somebody who, you know, halfway through the conversation kind of checks out, doesn't really listen to you. Or if there's a conflict or shutting down and you're like, oh, okay, I recognize that I'd love right. So all of these behaviors are things that trigger our idea of love, which we've decided in this original relationship that we've had with our parents. That is why we ended up partnering with them with that and marrying mom.
Jacqueline
Oh, Lord, yeah, yeah, yeah. So So I send you all the tiktoks you send me all the huge Good videos. So we've been talking about this for weeks because this has been on my mind since I saw that tick tock, and in response to that tick tock, you've sent me like seven YouTube videos, and you're like, you need to watch these because this is this is what this is about. And there was one line that you sent me one from school of life. It is why we picked difficult partners, we'll link all of these things in the show notes. But there was one line that stuck out to me, which was in terms of being attracted to someone or not attracted to someone. We may label someone as not sexy or boring. when in truth, we mean, unlikely to make me suffer in the way that I need to suffer in order to feel that love is real.
Effy
Yes. Yes.
Jacqueline
Likely to make me suffer in a way that I need to suffer in order to feel that love is real.
Effy
Yes, yes, I. The reason for that is this attachment stuff happens when we are in the survival mode, right? When we're when we're babies, we're like prime directive survive, right? Our brains aren't geared towards thriving, we are always geared like survival thirst, right? So if you're not surviving, if you're not like, if you're not sure and safely surviving, you're not going to thrive. So our brains are always focused on survival, survival, survival. And I think as babies, the chances of survival are actually fairly low. Right? I'm not talking about today with modern medicine, I'm talking about years of evolution. So cavemen lost kids all the time, women died at childbirth all the time, women die at childbirth today, by the way, so like, the chances of being born and staying alive. Getting to a certain age is actually fairly low. And it was even less when we were evolving, right. So I think what's happening is we associate love with survival. Because it's happening to us this, this idea of what love looks like is happening to us during a period where we are trying to survive. So I think those wires get crossed. And that is why the suffering becomes associated with love, right? And then we feel like in order to feel that love, you also have to feel the suffering. Mm hmm.
Jacqueline
And even the precursor to that, then is that that feeling of arousal or attraction, like you were saying, before, that before even love is on is there before even you've said words to each other? Somehow, energetically, we are just noticing, like, Oh, you're kind of broken like me and the way that I am or you're gonna, you're gonna trigger my things. Like, let's let's go out on a date, let's go get some dinner.
Effy
I do think that some of that stuff on that level, it's actually, like, I understand it scientifically. I understand it about mirror neurons, I understand the brain, not wholly but the parts that to do with this topic. Yet that attraction on this like, just by looking at somebody by just standing next to somebody, having all this flood of emotions, with such little contact is still a massive mystery to me, it just feels like magic. It really does feel like magic. Yes, I've experienced this, like standing next to somebody not even eye contact, like standing next to me and energetically feeling like, Oh, you're broken like I am. And that I just don't know, I find it really hard to explain that.
Jacqueline
Yeah. So okay, all of that makes sense to me as to why from like a evolutionary perspective, I'm gonna give you a little bit of a woowoo perspective, which is super woowoo. So, but we're gonna, okay, so this is why I think that we do it. I think that the universe matches us with people who are going to challenge us to help us grow. So I believe that we have an opportunity as an adult, to break patterns and heal relationships with love, in partnership in a way that we could not do as children. I am not sure how we could heal on our own when many of our hurts and triggers emerge when in partnership. And so I think that if there is a willingness to heal and a desire to do that together, then again, I just I keep going back to the beginning, like it's a bad bed is it is activated attachment at the end of the day, should we be avoiding it? Should when we feel aroused and connected? Should we say no, don't do this thing? Or should we say I'm an adventurer who is on the path of healing? Let's go have some great sex and then go to therapy. Like that's, I like that. I wonder
Effy
I feel like that's just just that's just like to me that just describes that ideal relationship, good sex or regular therapy. I feel like that is all I want
Jacqueline
brunch in between sex brunch,
Effy
therapy and therapy. I love that. That is like my ideal relationship. So let's talk about is it bad? Again, I don't think this is one of those situations we can say good or bad? Because it really depends on what you're attracted to through attachment activation, right? So for example, if in your case, right, the struggle that you're having with your partner with Alexis, is not abusive, right, it is uncomfortable. It's upsetting, right? It is, you know, there's dissatisfaction, right, what you're working through. And all of those things are not nice. Like, you don't really want them in any relationship. No one, no one's signing up for those things, right. But it is not the end of the world. No one's abusing anybody, no one's being hurt in a kind of like a physical abusive kind of way, right? So you're kind of dealing, you're walking towards something, you're working towards something that isn't ideal, but it's also not detrimental, right, and you're like, and I want to heal through this, and you happen to have a partner who's willing to sort of go on that journey with you. So in your case, is it that No, it isn't actually kind of working out really well for you, congrats. And, you know, I get to witness it, which I love, and it's beautiful. So that's great. However, if your prototype, if your original, the OG relationship is abusive, and it destroys your self esteem, and you know, it causes deep trauma, and you find yourself attracted to that over and over again, and the partners that you're attracted to are not willing to go on a healing journey with you, then that is not ideal, right? You don't you don't want to be in a situation where you're constantly activated through attachment. And you're attracted to people that are, you know, repeating past abuse past trauma, because that is what's familiar to you, that is not ideal, right? In that case, you do want to find ways of like not going towards the thing that is activating. So in your case, yeah, it's inconvenience, in other cases is detrimental. Hmm,
Jacqueline
that makes sense. Okay, so that makes me feel a little bit, I feel a little less judged by the therapists of tick tock that are saying my relationships are not going to work, I think that that we will push through. And it makes sense to me that if the pattern of folks that I was attracted to were, to your point, creating abusive situations, that that would be something to avoid,
Effy
or that they might not also be like abusive. Another thing to watch out for, for example, this guy at the bar, the chances are, you can also you might also find yourself in situations where you, you know, you have a one night stand and you feel like empty, and you know, it affects your self esteem. They might not even be abusive, like consciously abusive towards you. But you find yourself in relationships that hurt your self esteem that that make you you know, not have good study boundaries and agree to things that you don't really want to and you come out the other side feeling beaten, or with low self esteem, or self hatred, and all those horrible things, even though the other person's intentions aren't that you just got pulled into a relationship that does that for you. Right? Again, that is not ideal. Like, do you want to be walking in those relationships? Ideally not. Right?
Jacqueline
Yeah. So okay, but if if this is so embedded into our code, and unconsciously it like it's insidious, and it just pulls us towards people without us even realizing it, then how do you break that? How do you break that pull? And to your point, say, No, I should not be going this direction. I want to do things differently. Or wait a minute, oh, no, I'm in this relationship. Like, what can I do now? Like, essentially, what happens next? Sure.
Effy
I mean, a few options, right. I think first and foremost, awareness, awareness, awareness. Right. So I think we need to be aware of the way that we're showing up in these relationships. Right. So what can we do about it? First and foremost, we need to be aware, aware of it, like I have now have a spidey sense, right. So I know that when I'm activated in that way, which is jumping into arousal that is now demanding resolution, the chances are something is wrong, right. I just I just know that.
Jacqueline
Yeah. Which, Can we pause there for a second? I mean, I just that makes me feel sad, right? That, you know, like, as soon as I get turned on, I know something is wrong. Like, no, I
Effy
just turned on in anyway. turns on in a very specific way. No, I mean, not you right, because that makes me that makes me sad. But it's like the it's like what I'm saying about addiction. It's the difference between Oh, like, I got a hard day I'm going to, you know, have a glass of wine, or I'm gonna have you know, a little bit of weed. Right, right. Versus Yes. Like, I if I don't have that glass of wine, or if I don't smoke that weed, like something bad is gonna happen. The world's gonna come to an end and I just can't imagine a world where I don't do that. Right. That is a difference. So I still get turned on in healthy situations. Thank God for that. I just know to recognize it. I know to recognize a new one. difference of when I'm activated, which feels like arousal versus I'm attracted and into arousal. Yeah. That makes sense to me. Yeah. But I do sadness around that, right? Because I like you. I also like that arousal like that arousal is hot, just like, you know, a glass of wine to an alcoholic is like so appealing, right? It just feels like exactly what they would want. You know, it's the same idea, I think. So in those cases, I walk away, like there are certain cases I know, to walk away. And I think that is the right answer for some people, like if you are noticing that you're going into abusive situations or situations that are not good for you and leaving you, you know, either hurt or empty, and you have a pattern of that. And you recognize that pattern next time it comes up, walk away, just walk away. Right? If you're not able to walk away, get your friends involved, right. Get them to tell you, that is not a good match. Right? I think that is something that you can do. The other piece, I think is letting go of the idealized romanticized, eroticized idea of connection, right, this idea that true love starts with this, like, magical attraction where you immediately fall in love with this person, and everything just feels right. And you click together. And, you know, I think that idea of love and that seeking of that lust, as a proof of love, is, I think, an idea that we need to let go of. And it sucks to say that, because that idea is so ingrained, and it's so delicious. And it's so fun. And letting go of that idea comes with grief. But I think we just just need to do that.
Jacqueline
Yeah, I know. I see it a minute there. That's like that's like me at midnight, wanting to order a pizza and realizing that that wouldn't be the best decision for me that I wouldn't feel good in the morning. But that pizza would have been great, I think. Right? When I'm sitting right now in bed. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So okay, so that makes it I think the other thing, you know, as you're saying that the thing that makes me think about is particularly in my dynamic, that non monogamy has been a way for me. I mean, frankly, from just the awareness place, I think I remember when, when I was working with you, and you were our relationship coach, my wife and I, you talked about how, you know, she was hearing things from me and from her partner at the time, and you were saying, Well, if you hear from one person, it could be true or not true, you start to hear from multiple people, you start to see a pattern there. That's something to pay attention to. And I think that that's true, I think that being in multiple relationships, particularly at the same time allowed me to have a sense of awareness that I may not have had if I was only in a monogamous relationship. Sure.
Effy
Also, a non monogamy, you know, can be an answer to this, right. And I see this a lot with people who are exploring non monogamy one of the main causes I see is that whether they realize it or not, people are trying to find a way to have like long, sustainable loving relationships, while finding a way to get their lust fix, right, this thing that we actually should walk away from, they're like, Well, let me figure out this like, healthy relationship that is safe, secure, sustainable, you know, and ideally open. So that when you know, every now and then we get to go out there and like Chase, like lusty one nights, one night stands, or these like explosive relationships that are going to burn bright and hot and like and then evaporate. So yeah, I mean, non monogamy I think is is an option. I'm not saying that's what everybody should do. But it is an option. If you want to figure out, you know, if you want to have both these like established relationships, and also make room for these, like, you know,
Jacqueline
hotness, that make sense to me, just a word of caution out there to the people. Just be careful, you might go out there looking for less and find yourself some love. There was no way in my mind that my relationship with my partner would have lasted this long. That was not at all what I was seeking. And then it evolved over time. But I yeah, just just a word of caution. Be careful out there. Yeah. Be careful that that yeah, I get that. I remember, there was a time when in the beginning when my partner and I started to explore how do we heal together, where you were talking to me about different couple of therapy options for us to explore, particularly when it comes to healing from trauma.
Effy
It's couples therapy is great. Everybody should do it. Even if you're not having any troubles in your relationship, go and get some therapy. It will just make things better. And I think some of the, you know, one of the therapy modalities that gets talked about a lot about where couples really decide that the relationship is really about healing. Their relationship is really about healing. So it's It's a commitment to healing each other within the context of the relationship, they can engage in Imago therapy, right? So I know I have two minds, I'm in two minds about Imago therapy, or the imago method, if you will, it involves three steps mirroring, validating an empathy. At times, you're being a surrogate parent to your partner, and you're really looking to heal childhood wounds in the context of this current adult relationship. And that's what Imago therapy is, I think it works with committed couples who really decide like mutually decide, we have some childhood wounds, which is affecting the quality of our relationship, and we want to heal those wounds within the context of this relationship. And we're going to support each other actively in healing those relationships, right. So it's a very involved modality. And it works, I think, when people who are committed to it. However, my big question about Imago therapy is that my guess is that it kills the eroticism. Again, I just want to say, This is my personal opinion, there's no data I there is nothing other than my personal opinion and what I read about it, so I just want to just a word of caution, like if you are doing Imago therapy, and it's like rocking your world, and you having the best relationship and living your best life. And what I'm saying is just not resonating with you at all, good for you. Let us know how it's going. I want to hear about your experience, just from knowing what I know and working with people. My personal opinion is that I could imagine Imago therapy killing eroticism, especially because you're going so deep and doing things like taking a surrogate parent role, with a partner, getting really sort of the level of attunement that Imago therapy is is building right through mirroring validation. Empathy is akin to parental attunement, which again, is not really supposed to happen in you know, in our adult and adult relationships, right. So given that it's really bringing up parental familiar stuff, I can see how those dynamics and when you get involved in them can just like kill your eroticism because that's not where the erotic lives like we don't want to fuck up parents. So when we get into parent child dynamics, you know, when you're too attuned, right, we like to attune to our partner and partners needs like a parent would to a child. I think that's where there's no room for eroticism. That's not you don't want to you don't want to be fucking in those dynamics, if you will.
Jacqueline
Yeah, that makes sense to me.
Effy
Okay, so last but not least, Your other option is to change your response to the activating stimuli. What does that mean? So if your partner shuts down when there's conflict, and your reaction is to cling to them to sort of want answers and wanting to connect, right, and you find yourself in the same pattern over and over again, and that is your pattern, like there's an attachment pattern that's being activated, you can do the work of not feeding that right. So your partner shuts down. You create theories around taking that personally, you work on knowing like that's about them. And that's how they're surviving in the world right now. And it is not about you, so that you, you know, just stimuli that's kicking you into that that attachment pattern, but you can change, technically, you can change your response. Right. And that's where the work is.
Jacqueline
Yeah, I think that that that sounds right. To me, I think in terms of my experience, that it of course, everything starts with self, that I have been much more mindful of what it is that I need or want feel like I need or want out of a situation and start to analyze why that is. So sitting in discomfort, I'm very, II I can very easily have conversations that involve conflict. I am not afraid of conflict. What is uncomfortable for me is sitting in something that is unresolved. I think I am drawn to have difficult conversations because I want to let's let's just talk about it. Let's talk about it. Let's fix it and let's move on. And when someone is in their feelings and are not like moving past those feelings fast enough and have to like sit in their feelings like that discomfort is hard. And I do find myself wanting to escalate to fawning, essentially, which is you know, everything you Okay, can I hug you? Can I you know, can I get you something, like trying to do something, which is a pattern that I saw my mom do with my dad, when my dad was really, you know, frustrated and create a tension and anger in the house. She would be like, let's look at rainbows and let's everything's great. And so I think I have that kind of mode. But again, the universe is coming to teach me a lesson I want when there was conflict. I want Cuddles, I want closeness. I want all of those like happy feelings. And my daughter does not do that at all. My wife and partner actually nobody in my life wants cuddles as much as I do. I think that when everyone is upset, they want space. I just want to be held. And so I think the universe is giving me opportunities to practice not getting the thing that I want. Not having to cut I don't even get cuddles for my dog. My dog I know she will like come up and like cuddle for like a minute. Like she'll get cozy. And then like after two minutes, she's like, Alright, and then she just walks away and goes late somewhere else. And she does that with all of us. Like it's not just she just like comes and gets cozy for a little bit. And she like got her film. She's like, I'm out and then she goes somewhere else and does something else. So yeah, I don't know what my cuddle freeness has to do with this episode, but it felt important to share that with the world.
Effy
So I think though the thing the thing there right is going back to the first thing that we talked about, which is like letting go of this idea the letting go of the idealized romanticized, eroticized idea of connection, right, we said that you need to let go of that. And there's like grief that comes with that. I think it's a similar situation here, right? The fact that you want cuddles is not going to change. You can do the work of accepting, tolerating first and and accepting that these people that you love, aren't gonna give you those cuddles. And that doesn't mean they don't love you. It just means that they're not going to give you cuddles. And you can learn to tolerate that. Right. And you can you can you can be okay with that. And I think there's going to be grief still, because you have to let go of this thing that you want. Right. So just circling back to is it bad? Right? This is the question you're asking, Is it bad to do this is but I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. I think internally there needs to be checks and balances of is it worth it? Right? Is is it worth it? Is being cuddling is worth it? Because I'm getting all these other things in this relationship? Right. So I think that is the question. Is it bad? Is it good? I don't think there's any cheese there. I don't think that's gonna like that's gonna there's no wisdom there. There's no growth there. Right. But is it worth it? Is Is there balance? Right? Is there synergy, I think will give you much better of a gauge of the health of your relationship.
Jacqueline
I think that's right. It has forced me to learn how to meet my own needs, which is the goal all along is I should not have I shouldn't be dependent on other folks to meet my emotional needs. And so I've learned now over time, when I feel that need for something and it's not available to me, what are the ways in which I can feed myself? What are the ways in which when people are open to Cuddles, I like get as many cuddles as possible and stockpile them so I'm full of cuddles. And then this way when I'm cuddle free, it's okay. I don't feel as bad. So it has given me an opportunity. I think this whole journey I think of finding myself partnered with folks who To my great surprise, even though it keeps happening, I have social all the things well, to my very great surprise, they keep showing up like my parents realizing that that is okay, that I'm going to see it as a gift from the universe for me to do things differently and heal that sometimes that requires that I have to do things that I don't like, be uncomfortable. But I do think that it's worth it. I do think to your question, is it worth it? It has been worth it for me.
Effy
Great. I think that's the ultimate question. I think that is the ultimate question. I think just for all of you are walking who are listening to this and wondering, Is it is it activation? Is it attraction? Is it arousal? Am I you know, is it healthy to be in a relationship that is, you know, constantly activating attachment stuff? You know, I think the question is that you need to come back to is exactly that. How is everything else? Is it all worth it is the effort that it takes for me to be in this relationship worth the relationship? Am I creating something or my preventing a my preventing something, I think if you creating something and if you feel it's worth it, go forth and thrive. If you
Jacqueline
want to weigh in on all of these things, if you have a different opinion than me and I if you have a story to share, we want to hear it. There's a million different ways, well, not a million, but there's a bunch of ways that you can contact us. First, you should be going on to our Facebook group. That is where our listeners connect, where we share some information and where you can talk about all the episodes with other curious folk. You can find us by emailing us at listening at we are curious foxes.com You can give us a call at 646-450-9079 so many ways for you to let us know what is on your mind and if you found this episode or any of our episodes interesting funny helpful please share this podcast with a friend quickly rate the show leave a comment subscribe on Apple podcast or follow us on Spotify or Stitcher. It is going to take a few seconds of your time but it will have a big impact For us, and if you've really been enjoying the show and you want to continue to indulge your curiosity and get more foxy with us, then you should join us on Patreon go to we are curious foxes on Patreon and that's where you can find many episodes, podcasts, extras of stuff that couldn't make it to the show. And we have over 50 videos from educator led workshops from pre pandemic when we were in person through when we were doing zoom events. All of that can be found on patreon you can find us everywhere including on our website, where we have blog posts ready for you to read, so that you can continue to engage I don't know if you're like me, but after let's say I binge something or I watch something on Netflix I still want more of the thing. So I start like reading with a pedia what happened during that time are these characters real What did the book say? Who's the actress what else she has been in it so if you're like me and you want more than you're gonna go onto our website we are curious boxes that we're gonna find blog posts and so much more. All of the things your window your key to the indulging your curiosity is find this everywhere at we are curious foxes.
Effy
This episode is produced by Fe blue and Jacqueline Musleh. With help from Yamaha. RK Shin, our editor is Nina Pollack, he couldn't be a healthier relationship choice. Our intro music is composed by Dr. Saha we are so grateful for that work. And we're grateful to you for listening as always, stay curious friends. Take to
Jacqueline
do you hear that car like screaming by me? Oh, no, I think that's like the heat. I don't know. Okay, I'm going to try to I'm going to try to navigate past it. Okay, quiet.
Effy
Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic. With solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind, and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends.
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